Martial Law

[Bailey Guns]

It didn't happen in Boston. If you think it did, you need to inform yourself of what constitutes martial law.

I've seen several people on this forum talk about martial law being imposed on the Boston area. I don't know where this idea came from, possibly from the heavy police presence and the fact police agencies were conducting some door-to-door searches. Or maybe some folks spend a little too much time tuned in to Alex Jones.

Google it if you don't know what it means.

[JMBD2112]

I've been hearing the same junk at work, and Alex jones could make a conspiracy out of a bowel movement

[hobowh]

I think it had to do with the door to door searches, they just assume that means that martial law was declared since they instituted a shelter in place order at the same time.

[losttrail]

True, it was not martial law instituted in Boston, but it WAS pieces of what martial law would be.

I think this may have been a micro test to see what how the citizenry would react; would they be docile sheeple and follow along blindly.

The actions taken by the government were ill timed and over-reaching in my opinion. They just didn't make sense.

[Skully]

Agreed it was not full on Martial Law, but as Lost Trail said elements.

From what we have seen with the door to door searches was overeaching. Asking people to NOT go anywhere, stay home.................hmmmm.

[buffalobo]

It was another step on the path.

The journey is now shorter than it used to be.

Sent from my DROID Pro using Tapatalk 2

[Bailey Guns]

True, it was not martial law instituted in Boston, but it WAS pieces of what martial law would be.

I think this may have been a micro test to see what how the citizenry would react; would they be docile sheeple and follow along blindly.

While I respect your opinion, I disagree. I don't see this as a test at all. A test would imply (to me, anyway) something pre-planned. I don't think any part of that very fluid and dynamic situation/search was pre-planned by anyone.

And if it was a piece of what martial law looked like it was a very, very small, really tiny piece, maybe. Like, "Please stay in your home." Nothing more. And as far as I can tell, the governor issued a request...not an order...for people in the Boston area to "shelter in place". I can't find any reference to a mandatory order for people to stay inside. In the area where the fugitive was eventually discovered, and possibly in other areas, there may have been very isolated orders by the police to occupants of a few homes to "stay inside". Orders which would have been very temporary at best.

I have to say, as an LEO, I've given orders to people at a few incidents to "go inside, lock your doors" or something similar when searching or trying to arrest dangerous people. That still doesn't equate to martial law, even on a small scale, and if they had come out of their homes and walked away I would've done nothing about it unless they interfered with what was going on. Even then the distraction from dealing with them was probably mitigated by just letting them leave the area and accomplished exactly what I wanted...keeping them safe.

Attempting to protect the general population through such an order or even evacuation of a few houses in a neighborhood due to dangerous circumstances doesn't equate to martial law, either.


The actions taken by the government were ill timed and over-reaching in my opinion. They just didn't make sense.

What government?

[Bailey Guns]

Agreed it was not full on Martial Law, but as Lost Trail said elements.

From what we have seen with the door to door searches was overeaching. Asking people to NOT go anywhere, stay home.................hmmmm.

Exactly. The police were "asking" people not to go out on the streets where they were conducting operations.

[Bailey Guns]

It was another step on the path.

The journey is now shorter than it used to be.

Sent from my DROID Pro using Tapatalk 2

Very poetic but what exactly does it mean?

[hatidua]

I arrived in Manila 11 days before Marcos declared martial law in '72 and it wasn't all that different from how Boston appeared on the news....except there weren't door to door searches.

[Bailey Guns]

Manilla must've changed a lot from 72 to 82. I was there in 82 and it didn't look, feel, smell or sound anything like Boston...martial law or not.

[davsel]

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/martial+law

The exercise of government and control by military authorities over the civilian population of a designated territory.


Martial law is an extreme and rare measure used to control society during war or periods of civil unrest or chaos. According to the Supreme Court, the term martial law carries no precise meaning (Duncan v. Kahanamoku, 327 U.S. 304, 66 S. Ct. 606, 90 L. Ed. 688 [1946]). However, most declarations of martial law have some common features. Generally, the institution of martial law contemplates some use of military force. To a varying extent, depending on the martial law order, government military personnel have the authority to make and enforce civil and criminal laws. Certain civil liberties may be suspended, such as the right to be free from unreasonable searches and seizures, freedom of association, and freedom of movement. And the writ ofHabeas Corpus (http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Habeas+Corpus) may be suspended (this writ allows persons who are unlawfully imprisoned to gain freedom through a court proceeding).

If it looks like a duck...

[Dingo]

Unlike some other recent instances of mass destruction, I don't believe Boston was planned or perpetrated by the gov't. However, I do think they're quite adept at turning a situation like that beneficial to their agenda, be it a test run for future plans, emotionally-backed legislation, or bolstering their militant presence incrementally here in the states.

Boston was a perfect scenario for them to practice a bit against what could be an armed insurgency in the future. It's painfully telling of how things have changed from how they used to be. 200, even 100 years ago, an event like that would have been perceived as a threat to the community. To be dealt with by the COMMUNITY... armed posses, deputizations, citizen watches etc. These days, it's just "return to your pens... we'll let you back in the pasture when we've dealt with the threat appropriately."

[Bailey Guns]

I didn't realize military forces were making and enforcing civil and criminal law in Boston. I didn't realize the courts were non-functioning to the point habeas corpus was suspended. Guess I missed that part.

[10mm-man]

Exactly. The police were "asking" people not to go out on the streets where they were conducting operations.


Do you have the source back up, that it was just a polite "stay in your home" request ? I didn't see a soul outside their home, but then again I really didn't follow this. From what I did see; there was not a soul on the street and there were some heavily armed presence rolling around.

Either way there is a war going on and it is now on the streets of America. To what point it escalates is unknown, for now! Of course that is another issues about American rights or enemy combatant. Stay Safe, stay vigilant!

[10mm-man]

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/martial+law

The exercise of government and control by military authorities over the civilian population of a designated territory.


Martial law is an extreme and rare measure used to control society during war or periods of civil unrest or chaos. According to the Supreme Court, the term martial law carries no precise meaning (Duncan v. Kahanamoku, 327 U.S. 304, 66 S. Ct. 606, 90 L. Ed. 688 [1946]). However, most declarations of martial law have some common features. Generally, the institution of martial law contemplates some use of military force. To a varying extent, depending on the martial law order, government military personnel have the authority to make and enforce civil and criminal laws. Certain civil liberties may be suspended, such as the right to be free from unreasonable searches and seizures, freedom of association, and freedom of movement. And the writ ofHabeas Corpus (http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Habeas+Corpus) may be suspended (this writ allows persons who are unlawfully imprisoned to gain freedom through a court proceeding).

If it looks like a duck...

Hummm, Martial law? Looks like Sit......

"the term martial law carries no precise meaning"



So it doesn't have to be said- "were declaring martial law" just the elements have to exist?

[Bailey Guns]

Just quotes in the media from the governor and mayor saying the were either "asking" or "requesting" people to stay home. There are plenty of video clips available where both are using those terms.

[10mm-man]

Just quotes in the media from the governor and mayor saying the were either "asking" or "requesting" people to stay home. There are plenty of video clips available where both are using those terms.

Gotcha! What about the post 2 above ya? Seems it doesn't have to be said, just contain the elemets of, no?

[losttrail]

Very poetic but what exactly does it mean?

Incrementalism. That's what it means. Not taking everything at once, but small pieces, bits at a time.

I believe it was a test and a clever one.

By not issuing an order to stay inside, but making it a request, it was much less innocuous, thus setting the stage for future events. Slowly getting the public used to the idea that the police/mayor/governor are only looking out for their best interests.

Trust Big Brother.

This yahoo had been identified late Tuesday or early Wednesday and was still on the loose, but the request to "shelter in place" was not issued until Friday?

Obama saw his latest photo op on Thursday in Boston, so evidently this remaining terrorist was not too dangerous until after Obama left Boston?

Why was the request to "shelter in place" issued AFTER commuters were already at or on their way to work and school?

How about shutting down the T and taxi services?

BG, you asked "What government?" Gov. Deval Patrick (a government official I believe) issued the "shelter at home" request, correct? Didn't Gov. Deval Patrick also issue the orders to shut down mass transit? As I understand it, a governor is the highest ranking GOVERNMENT official of each state and not just some random civilian.

That government.

How much disruption of mass transit was there following the Alfred P. Murrah Federal building bombing in Oklahoma City? There were no issued requests or orders to "shelter in place" while the suspects were still unknown or known but not yet aprehended.

How about the DC snipers? Was mass transit shut down and the citizenry requested to "cower in fear"? Was DC placed in "lockdown"? No.

Is Chicago placed in lockdown every night due to the mass shootings that occur on an almost daily basis? No.

Just some items to ponder.

[jhood001]

I wouldn't call it martial law, but what was on the news about it and what was actually going on all day were a bit different. While the message may have been 'Please stay in your homes', the 'please' part was dropped if people were out on foot and they were promptly put on their asses and held there. I heard it done twice in the period that I was listening to the scanner that morning.

I'm not sure why anyone even tried to go anywhere though. At least not as long as this guy was delivering free milk:

http://www.guns.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/boston-police-officer-delivers-milk.jpg

[losttrail]

One of the biggest problems is that the people of Boston and that whole region, and all major metropolitan areas, have been almost completely disarmed and emasculated.

They have been indoctrinated for decades that they do not need to defend themselves, that when seconds count, the police are only minutes away.

They are/were scarred beyond reason about a 19 year old fanatic that brought one of America's largest cities to its knees because our officials are more concerned with controlling the populace than defending our freedom.

[buffalobo]

Incrementalism. That's what it means. Not taking everything at once, but small pieces, bits at a time.

I believe it was a test and a clever one.

By not issuing an order to stay inside, but making it a request, it was much less innocuous, thus setting the stage for future events. Slowly getting the public used to the idea that the police/mayor/governor are only looking out for their best interests.

Trust Big Brother.

This yahoo had been identified late Tuesday or early Wednesday and was still on the loose, but the request to "shelter in place" was not issued until Friday?

Obama saw his latest photo op on Thursday in Boston, so evidently this remaining terrorist was not too dangerous until after Obama left Boston?

Why was the request to "shelter in place" issued AFTER commuters were already at or on their way to work and school?

How about shutting down the T and taxi services?

BG, you asked "What government?" Gov. Deval Patrick (a government official I believe) issued the "shelter at home" request, correct? Didn't Gov. Deval Patrick also issue the orders to shut down mass transit? As I understand it, a governor is the highest ranking GOVERNMENT official of each state and not just some random civilian.

That government.

How much disruption of mass transit was there following the Alfred P. Murrah Federal building bombing in Oklahoma City? There were no issued requests or orders to "shelter in place" while the suspects were still unknown or known but not yet aprehended.

How about the DC snipers? Was mass transit shut down and the citizenry requested to "cower in fear"? Was DC placed in "lockdown"? No.

Is Chicago placed in lockdown every night due to the mass shootings that occur on an almost daily basis? No.

Just some items to ponder.

+1, close enough for the girls I go with.

Sent from my DROID Pro using Tapatalk 2

[davsel]

I didn't realize military forces were making and enforcing civil and criminal law in Boston. I didn't realize the courts were non-functioning to the point habeas corpus was suspended. Guess I missed that part.


http://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/327/304
...
We believe that when Congress passed the Hawaiian Organic Act and authorized the establishment of 'martial law' it had in mind and did not wish to exceed the boundaries between military and civilian power, in which our people have always believed, which responsible military and executive officers had heeded, and which had become part of our political philosophy and institutions prior to the time Congress passed the Organic Act. The phrase 'martial law' as employed in that Act, therefore, while intended to authorize the military to act vigorously for the maintenance of an orderly civil government and for the defense of the island against actual or threatened rebellion or invasion, was not intended to authorize the supplanting of courts by military tribunals. Yet the government seeks to justify the punishment of both White and Duncan on the ground of such supposed Congressional authorization. We hold that both petitioners are now entitled to be released from custody.
...


SCOTUS said suspension of habeas corpus is not required under "martial law."

[speedysst]

Some of you guys really need to take a deep breath and relax. Some serious paranoia going on around here.

[Bailey Guns]

Unlike some other recent instances of mass destruction, I don't believe Boston was planned or perpetrated by the gov't. However, I do think they're quite adept at turning a situation like that beneficial to their agenda, be it a test run for future plans, emotionally-backed legislation, or bolstering their militant presence incrementally here in the states.

Boston was a perfect scenario for them to practice a bit against what could be an armed insurgency in the future. It's painfully telling of how things have changed from how they used to be. 200, even 100 years ago, an event like that would have been perceived as a threat to the community. To be dealt with by the COMMUNITY... armed posses, deputizations, citizen watches etc. These days, it's just "return to your pens... we'll let you back in the pasture when we've dealt with the threat appropriately."

100 years ago...aside from technology probably not too much different. 200 years ago, much different.

However, 200 (or even 100 years ago) there wasn't the civilian police presence with associated technology and communications there is now. I'm not saying it's right or wrong but there isn't the need for posses and such today.

I can't really disagree with the first part of your statement. After all, never let a good crisis go to waste.


These days, it's just "return to your pens... we'll let you back in the pasture when we've dealt with the threat appropriately."

But I do disagree with that assessment. As a matter of fact, the police did say the "shelter in place" request was lifted even though they had not apprehended the suspect or "dealt with the threat appropriately". A citizen came out of his home and located the suspect and alerted police.

[newracer]

Do you have the source back up, that it was just a polite "stay in your home" request ? I didn't see a soul outside their home, but then again I really didn't follow this. From what I did see; there was not a soul on the street and there were some heavily armed presence rolling around.

Either way there is a war going on and it is now on the streets of America. To what point it escalates is unknown, for now! Of course that is another issues about American rights or enemy combatant. Stay Safe, stay vigilant!

There was no one on the street because they all saw it as a free day off from work.

[Bailey Guns]

First, I'll concede martial law does not always include suspension of habeas corpus. Let me take a minute to read the other replies.

[Mountain Boy]

Call it whatever you want, sadly, times like this makes the entitled sheeple, feel safe. They expect Big Brother to watch out for and take care of them while raising their children all while being entitled to everything. They could all tweet from their living rooms "woe is me, I was so scared while the bad men were running free and the tough men in blue saved us all".

[Aloha_Shooter]

Some of you guys really need to take a deep breath and relax. Some serious paranoia going on around here.

+1

I detest Deval Patrick and his mentor in the Oval Office but there's no need to read some plot to exercise totalitarian dictatorship into what happened last week. The circumstances behind the manhunt and time criticality of it were somewhat unique in recent American experience. Probably the closest things to it were the hunts for Lee Harvey Oswald and John Wilkes Booth. I don't see it establishing a precedent or blueprint for Obama to follow.

[brokenscout]

This
True, it was not martial law instituted in Boston, but it WAS pieces of what martial law would be.

I think this may have been a micro test to see what how the citizenry would react; would they be docile sheeple and follow along blindly.

The actions taken by the government were ill timed and over-reaching in my opinion. They just didn't make sense.

[davsel]

Do you have the source back up, that it was just a polite "stay in your home" request ? I didn't see a soul outside their home, but then again I really didn't follow this. From what I did see; there was not a soul on the street and there were some heavily armed presence rolling around.

Either way there is a war going on and it is now on the streets of America. To what point it escalates is unknown, for now! Of course that is another issues about American rights or enemy combatant. Stay Safe, stay vigilant!


Massachusetts Governor and Boston Police Commissioner "ask" residents:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=6rrmfp2QRbE


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=6rrmfp2QRbE

[hatidua]

Things don't seem to get "declared" as much as they used to. I don't recall the U.S. formally declaring war in Iraq or Afghanistan and yet I highly suspect those that got shot/bombed died just as dead as if war had in fact been declared. Now, we just do, forget the declarations. Martial Law wasn't declared in Boston, as such, it's all just peachy.

[ChunkyMonkey]

Whoa.. You guys are over reacting. Back in Jakarta 1998, curfew was declared, and shoot to kill for any rioters/looters, Family members couldn't retrieve their loved ones' bodies. Food were somewhat rationed. That was closer to martial law!!!

My friend in Boston didn't even close his donut shop during the ordeal. :)

[jhood001]

Whoa.. You guys are over reacting. Back in Jakarta 1998, curfew was declared, and shoot to kill for any rioters/looters, Family members couldn't retrieve their loved ones' bodies. Food were somewhat rationed. That was closer to martial law!!!

My friend in Boston didn't even close his donut shop during the ordeal. :)

Your friend's donut shop staying open is a fairly poor example of normality. Even with all of the non-LE on full lock-down, it was still probably his largest sales day of the year! [Coffee]

[spqrzilla]

Attempting to protect the general population through such an order or even evacuation of a few houses in a neighborhood due to dangerous circumstances doesn't equate to martial law, either.
Ordering an entire metro area to stay inside, close businesses (except Dunkin' Donuts ...) and shut down all transit systems is far more than many martial law declarations have done.

Frankly, its was both utterly illegal, inappropriate and completely ridiculous.

[Dave_L]

Did you guys see all the articles on all the contraband they confiscated during the door to door searches? All those "other" criminals that they grabbed during the searches? Neither did I.

There was an obvious close danger to those residents. The members on this forum are generally a bit more prepared for something like that but not all of the country is as responsible. A lot of people count on the policy to protect them and thats their right, just as it is ours to not count on them. Could you imagine how clouded things would be if you added 100 residents scowling the neighborhoods with their AR-15's? This is way different than full on riots in the streets. They were looking for a single person and they were just asking to keep the public space clear so it's easier to notice one person slinking in and out of alleys/cars/etc. Clear all the bullshit outta the way to make the job easier. We can all understand that.

Just my $.02.

[ChunkyMonkey]

Your friend's donut shop staying open is a fairly poor example of normality. Even with all of the non-LE on full lock-down, it was still probably his largest sales day of the year! [Coffee]

Hence why I use it as an example. Furthermore.. Many businesses chose to open, media are allowed to move freely. They ask folks to stay home, never ordered them. :)

[Bailey Guns]

Incrementalism. That's what it means. Not taking everything at once, but small pieces, bits at a time.

I believe it was a test and a clever one.

By not issuing an order to stay inside, but making it a request, it was much less innocuous, thus setting the stage for future events. Slowly getting the public used to the idea that the police/mayor/governor are only looking out for their best interests.

Trust Big Brother.

Incremental usurpation of rights and liberties by the federal gov't...I'll buy that. That's been happening for a long time. The fed has far exceeded the powers granted it by the Constitution. I don't believe in any way the Boston incident was some sort of test but respect your choice in believing that.


This yahoo had been identified late Tuesday or early Wednesday and was still on the loose, but the request to "shelter in place" was not issued until Friday?

Obama saw his latest photo op on Thursday in Boston, so evidently this remaining terrorist was not too dangerous until after Obama left Boston?

Why was the request to "shelter in place" issued AFTER commuters were already at or on their way to work and school?

How about shutting down the T and taxi services?

Because I don't think the state and/or local gov'ts had a clue where this guy was until the MIT shooting on Thurs night. All of this began to unfold Thurs night and into Fri morning. So the fact the order wasn't issued until then would seem to indicate a lot of restraint on the part of the state/local gov'ts, in my opinion.


BG, you asked "What government?" Gov. Deval Patrick (a government official I believe) issued the "shelter at home" request, correct? Didn't Gov. Deval Patrick also issue the orders to shut down mass transit? As I understand it, a governor is the highest ranking GOVERNMENT official of each state and not just some random civilian.

That government.

That's why I was asking. Many people use "gov't" as a generic term for the feds. I just wanted to make sure we were on the same page.


How much disruption of mass transit was there following the Alfred P. Murrah Federal building bombing in Oklahoma City? There were no issued requests or orders to "shelter in place" while the suspects were still unknown or known but not yet aprehended.

How about the DC snipers? Was mass transit shut down and the citizenry requested to "cower in fear"? Was DC placed in "lockdown"? No.

Is Chicago placed in lockdown every night due to the mass shootings that occur on an almost daily basis? No.

Just some items to ponder.

In OKC after the bombing the governor did issue a state of emergency and ordered most, if not all, non-essential workers be released for the day for their safety. Pres Clinton also considered grounding air traffic out of OKC because it was thought the bomber might try to escape. Granted, he never did this. But, there were some similar steps taken to protect the public. Also, McVeigh was arrested 90 minutes after the bomb went off.

It would've been difficult to lock-down an entire region when the DC-area snipers were active. Plus, that incident lasted far, far longer. I'm don't recall but I'd be surprised if the local gov'ts didn't issue safety advisories of some sort to the general population. Chicago? Go figure. A bastion of liberal blight with out-of-control crime. It's not the same as terrorism.

[losttrail]

Some of you guys really need to take a deep breath and relax. Some serious paranoia going on around here.

Just because your paranoid, it doesn't mean they're not out to get you.

I think a little bit of paranoia is good. It causes one to question things that are being done.

I love my country but do not trust my government.

I am open to anyone providing reasons I should not be somewhat paranoid about what our government is doing.

[ChunkyMonkey]

Awareness is good. Paranoia is not.

[Bailey Guns]

Gotcha! What about the post 2 above ya? Seems it doesn't have to be said, just contain the elemets of, no?

Yeah. Elements like military forces in control. That didn't happen here. As a matter of fact the Washington Post printed an article that stated Nat'l Guard troops were not allowed to assist on scene immediately after the bombings.

We have some of the elements of an alien invasion too: eyewitness accounts of "flying saucers", dead aliens in Roswell, unexplained phenomenon, etc. All but the most important part...aliens actually invading.

[Bailey Guns]

There was no one on the street because they all saw it as a free day off from work.

There's probably more truth to this than most people want to admit.

[losttrail]

Chicago? Go figure. A bastion of liberal blight with out-of-control crime. It's not the same as terrorism.

From Merriam-Webster

terrorism - noun - Systematic use of violence to create a general climate of fear in a population and thereby to bring about a particular political objective.

And the political objective of the gang killings in Chicago and other metro areas is to drive out the police and authority in order to take over and establish gang dominance or the area. To set up there own society of crime.

It may not be exactly the same as international terrorism as we see coming from Iran, Afghaistan, Pakistan, Chechnya, etc., but it is still terrorism.

[Bailey Guns]

Hence why I use it as an example. Furthermore.. Many businesses chose to open, media are allowed to move freely. They ask folks to stay home, never ordered them. :)

I was just going to use the media example...thanks for bringing that up. For a city under "martial law" that was a shit-load of media people in vehicles, on foot and in their helicopters. Not to mention, in a lot of those press conference videos I saw people and cars moving freely about.

[losttrail]

Yeah. Elements like military forces in control. That didn't happen here. As a matter of fact the Washington Post printed an article that stated Nat'l Guard troops were not allowed to assist on scene immediately after the bombings.

We have some of the elements of an alien invasion too: eyewitness accounts of "flying saucers", dead aliens in Roswell, unexplained phenomenon, etc. All but the most important part...aliens actually invading.

Aliens are invading and have been for decades. Now they are getting drivers licenses, free healthcare, free education, welfare, in state tuition, amnesty........

And yes, there were 'military' forces in control, or at least paramilitary.

The police.

Police departments nowdays are equiped and trained very similarly to the military.

Mulitple reports of people stepping outside their homes when the police/SWAT teams were on the streets and being TOLD/ORDERED to "Get the f___ back inside." Doesn't sound much like a "request" when a uniformed officer with an M4, sidearm and all the protective gear yells that.

[Bailey Guns]

I'll also concede that people in urban, liberal-controlled areas are typically less prepared and less self-reliant than people in rural or isolated areas. I'll concede most people need someone, whether it's the police, the government or their employer, telling them what to do and how to do it every waking moment of their day.

That's their choice in personal lifestyle. If one chooses to be dependent on the gov't, what're you gonna do about it?

My wife and I were ordered by the sheriff's dept to evacuate due to a wildfire several years ago. I told the deputy "thanks for the information and your concern" but we'll leave when we decide it's appropriate. He said, "Fine. I hope you get out in time because no one will be here to help you." We knew that and understood that and we were prepared to accept the consequences of not abandoning our home.

Not everyone will accept the premise they are responsible for their lives. Unfortunately.

[brokenscout]

I like this also
One of the biggest problems is that the people of Boston and that whole region, and all major metropolitan areas, have been almost completely disarmed and emasculated.

They have been indoctrinated for decades that they do not need to defend themselves, that when seconds count, the police are only minutes away.

They are/were scarred beyond reason about a 19 year old fanatic that brought one of America's largest cities to its knees because our officials are more concerned with controlling the populace than defending our freedom.

[Bailey Guns]

Aliens are invading and have been for decades. Now they are getting drivers licenses, free healthcare, free education, welfare, in state tuition, amnesty........

And yes, there were 'military' forces in control, or at least paramilitary.

The police.

Police departments nowdays are equiped and trained very similarly to the military.

Mulitple reports of people stepping outside their homes when the police/SWAT teams were on the streets and being TOLD/ORDERED to "Get the f___ back inside." Doesn't sound much like a "request" when a uniformed officer with an M4, sidearm and all the protective gear yells that.

And do you really think that was anything more than isolated examples of hyped up and stressed out cops overreacting? I'm not saying there weren't some abuses. But to portray that as an "out of control" gov't seems like a stretch to me.

And cops, despite their training and equipment, are civilians. They may dress like the military and have some of the same gear and tactics, but they're still subject to civil control.

[losttrail]

Did you guys see all the articles on all the contraband they confiscated during the door to door searches? All those "other" criminals that they grabbed during the searches? Neither did I.

There was an obvious close danger to those residents. The members on this forum are generally a bit more prepared for something like that but not all of the country is as responsible. A lot of people count on the policy to protect them and thats their right, just as it is ours to not count on them. Could you imagine how clouded things would be if you added 100 residents scowling the neighborhoods with their AR-15's? This is way different than full on riots in the streets. They were looking for a single person and they were just asking to keep the public space clear so it's easier to notice one person slinking in and out of alleys/cars/etc. Clear all the bullshit outta the way to make the job easier. We can all understand that.

Just my $.02.

What I did see was that once the 'lockdown' was lifted, a private citizen, exercising his right to kill himself with cigarettes, located the terrorist. So what did the lockdown and door-to-door searches accomplish?

It sent a lesson to the citizens that the 4th and 14th Amendments are easily suspended based upon a supposed threat. No, I am not saying that the threat was fictional. It was real and I agree that it makes sense to reduce the number of innocents from the equation.

I just don't see all that happened as 100% benign.

[Ronin13]

Why was the request to "shelter in place" issued AFTER commuters were already at or on their way to work and school?
IIRC, the shelter in place was requested around 4am... I don't know that many people that head to work that early, and I certainly don't know anyone who goes to school that early, not even teachers. I understand the point you're trying to make, but at least try to be factual when citing examples.

The last 5 days I've been seeing quite a bit of tin foil being donned... I'm not too sure if people are getting more foolish or what, but you know what they say about a drowning man grasping for straws? He still drowns. I concur that a little paranoia and healthy distrust of the government is needed, but you have to draw the line somewhere, otherwise you end up looking like Ted Kazynski or Alex Jones, aka a crazy person. While entertaining, a lot of the folks on Doomsday Preppers are a little bit over that line and venturing into loony territory. I hope they don't do an episode with anyone from on here. [mop]

ETA:

And cops, despite their training and equipment, are civilians. They may dress like the military and have some of the same gear and tactics, but they're still subject to civil control.
THIS! If you were to look at cops (yes, even a SWAT team) and compare them to infantry soldiers, there are so many more differences that it's not even worth counting the similarities. [Beer]

What I [B]did see was that once the 'lockdown' was lifted, a private citizen, exercising his right to kill himself with cigarettes, located the terrorist. So what did the lockdown and door-to-door searches accomplish?

It sent a lesson to the citizens that the 4th and 14th Amendments are easily suspended based upon a supposed threat. No, I am not saying that the threat was fictional. It was real and I agree that it makes sense to reduce the number of innocents from the equation.

I just don't see all that happened as 100% benign.
I'm just curious, if you were in charge of the situation and you had an armed and dangerous terrorist on the loose in a very loosely defined area (let's say 20 square blocks or so), what would you do to try and find him and mitigate the risk to the public?

[Dave_L]

I'll also concede that people in urban, liberal-controlled areas are typically less prepared and less self-reliant than people in rural or isolated areas. I'll concede most people need someone, whether it's the police, the government or their employer, telling them what to do and how to do it every waking moment of their day.

That's their choice in personal lifestyle. If one chooses to be dependent on the gov't, what're you gonna do about it?

My wife and I were ordered by the sheriff's dept to evacuate due to a wildfire several years ago. I told the deputy "thanks for the information and your concern" but we'll leave when we decide it's appropriate. He said, "Fine. I hope you get out in time because no one will be here to help you." We knew that and understood that and we were prepared to accept the consequences of not abandoning our home.

Not everyone will accept the premise they are responsible for their lives. Unfortunately.

A country boy can survive. It's not just a song. :)

[davsel]

I'd call it a "virtual martial law," or perhaps a "voluntary martial law" at best.

I am not aware of anyone being arrested for "violating" the "shelter in place" request.
Some of the video of LE Officers clearing houses appears a bit authoritative, given the "request," but I haven't seen enough to form a solid opinion yet.

Actually, I am impressed with the number of people who stayed the hell out of the LE Officers' way throughout the event.

However, there are always the few who are clueless:

http://www.armenianweekly.com/2013/04/20/watertown-family-describe-minutes-leading-to-dzhokhar-tsarnaevs-arrest/
Emmanuel Der Torossian and his daughter Julie, 13, whose back porch overlooks Franklin St., ventured into the streets for a stroll soon after the police lifted the curfew in the neighborhood at 6 p.m.


If 1000 LE officers just had a shootout and 20-something hour search in my neighborhood, I would not "venture into the streets for a stroll" with my 13 year old daughter minutes after being told, "We did not catch him yet."

Get what they deserve - morons.

[losttrail]

And do you really think that was anything more than isolated examples of hyped up and stressed out cops overreacting? I'm not saying there weren't some abuses. But to portray that as an "out of control" gov't seems like a stretch to me.

Nowhere did I say that the government was "out of control". I simply question some of the actions and motives based upon a history of events and reactions. I look at what politicians are motivated by, the legislation they pass and attempt to pass and do not believe that they have the best interests of "the people" in mind.

Our rights are being erroded every day. Thus I question the motives and look at the actions of those that are our "elected representatives". When I see things that don't make sense to me, I attempt to understand what other possibilities there could be.


And cops, despite their training and equipment, are civilians. They may dress like the military and have some of the same gear and tactics, but they're still subject to civil control.

And above the Chief of Police, what is the chain of command? All the way to the top please.

[Bailey Guns]

Call it whatever you want...<snip>

No, don't call it whatever you want. That's kind of the whole point of this discussion.

If we adopt that attitude how do we justify bitching about liberals calling an AR-15 an "assault rifle"? Words have meanings. The point I guess I was trying to make in this discussion is try to cut down on the rhetoric. I'm guessing almost everyone on the forum despises statements like "those guns belong on the battlefield and are only designed for killing people".

In terms of discussion of the issue (whatever it is), we're no better than "they" are if we lie or mislead through emotionally-charged rhetoric.

[Bailey Guns]

And above the Chief of Police, what is the chain of command? All the way to the top please.

The Chief usually answers to a City Manager or equivalent (depending on the city or size of the city), who answers to the Mayor. I don't think the Mayor answers to anyone. The state might take jurisdiction in an issue but a mayor isn't subordinate to a state official.

What's your point?

[muddywings]

Awareness is good. Paranoia is not.

not even just a weee bit??

[spqrzilla]

I'm just curious, if you were in charge of the situation and you had an armed and dangerous terrorist on the loose in a very loosely defined area (let's say 20 square blocks or so), what would you do to try and find him and mitigate the risk to the public?

I cordon off the area that was so defined. I don't order an entire metro area of millions of people to hide under their desks for a day, shut down all businesses (except Dunkin' Donuts - because its too dangerous for everyone but $7 an hour donut fryers ) and shut down all transit for the entire area.

[muddywings]

I got some down time here at the sweat shop so I'll jump back in here.
I totally get where Bailey is coming from and I'm sure he is probably thinking of this thread here: http://www.ar-15.co/threads/100019-House-to-house-Search
While from what little I know about BG from here I totally respect his/your point of view and opinion as they are always well thought out and articulate. I'm not sure if this post is referencing my thoughts in the linked thread but I did state in there that I'm ignorant of M.Law, and was asking for input.

That being said, simply because someone didn't proclaim ML from the Capital Building, doesn't mean they invoked some aspects of in this situation. Even as a former LEO myself (albeit a short time) I generally don't consider myself an expert. However, my father-in-law is a retired S. Deputy who did everything under the sun so I defer a lot to his expertise. While he never said "Martial Law" he did say a lot of what they did (from we can see) does stink...a lot and we both agree.

The one video I posted in the linked thread, IMHO, 'looks bad.' While, without proper context, a priest giving a young boy a lollipop can look bad too. But if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck...you know the rest.

In the linked thread, I also looped back to Katrina as I was looking for more information on how these situations affect our rights. I'm still unsure.

Again, I will just say that, it looks bad! And even though I'm ex-.mil, ex-LEO, now .gov, I'm not a big fan of government. I've seen too much of the inside to know they are generally not looking out for the individual but only looking out for the .gov machine.

[losttrail]

IIRC, the shelter in place was requested around 4am... I don't know that many people that head to work that early, and I certainly don't know anyone who goes to school that early, not even teachers. I understand the point you're trying to make, but at least try to be factual when citing examples. [Beer]

I leave my house at 2:30-3am to go to work and arrive at work roughly 1 hour later. I'm sure I'm not the only one in the nation. But I will give you that one if it was 4am. I'm reasonably sure that there are/were commuters heading from Boston to NYC on the trains at that time and I saw a few people interviewed from the area that were asking the same questions. My experiences in large cities is that at 4am, there are a fair amount of folks up and about.


The last 5 days I've been seeing quite a bit of tin foil being donned... I'm not too sure if people are getting more foolish or what, but you know what they say about a drowning man grasping for straws? He still drowns. I concur that a little paranoia and healthy distrust of the government is needed, but you have to draw the line somewhere, otherwise you end up looking like Ted Kazynski or Alex Jones, aka a crazy person. While entertaining, a lot of the folks on Doomsday Preppers are a little bit over that line and venturing into loony territory. I hope they don't do an episode with anyone from on here. [mop]

DDP is fun to watch and get some ideas from, and who knows, maybe a lot of them are right. I sure don't see our economy or society getting better any time soon.


ETA:

THIS! If you were to look at cops (yes, even a SWAT team) and compare them to infantry soldiers, there are so many more differences that it's not even worth counting the similarities. [Beer]

I will ask this: Above Chief of Police, chain of command all the way to the top please. And in an EoW/SHTF scenario, who would the police be under command of?


I'm just curious, if you were in charge of the situation and you had an armed and dangerous terrorist on the loose in a very loosely defined area (let's say 20 square blocks or so), what would you do to try and find him and mitigate the risk to the public?

I can't answer that because I am not privy to all the information that was available to them. But just because I am not privy to all that information, does that mean I am not allowed to ask questions or point out items that I find odd?

[losttrail]

The Chief usually answers to a City Manager or equivalent (depending on the city or size of the city), who answers to the Mayor. I don't think the Mayor answers to anyone. The state might take jurisdiction in an issue but a mayor isn't subordinate to a state official.

What's your point?

I'm sure that in a EoW/SHTF scenario, the mayor would answer to the governor who would then answer to the POTUS.

In certain circumstances I would imagine that local DA's might be involved along with state then federal AG's and thus POTUS again, with POTUS being CiC.

Just pointing out that police departments could theoretically become military units, MP's in certain situations.

Long stretch but not out of the realm of possibilities.

All things are possible, some are not probable.

[Bailey Guns]

That would be a jurisdictional issue. The mayor is not subordinate to anyone in matters involving his/her city alone.

What you're describing sounds more like real martial law.

[losttrail]

That would be a jurisdictional issue. The mayor is not subordinate to anyone in matters involving his/her city alone.

What you're describing sounds more like real martial law.

Thus a possibility in an EoW/SHTF/overreach scenario.

[Skully]

Exactly. The police were "asking" people not to go out on the streets where they were conducting operations.

Yes they were asked to stay home, but they shut down public transporation, from the eye witness reports to the comments made by those in the situation it sounded like they were scared of everything going on, including the law enforcement presence. What if people decided to go about their business, how much response would have gone down?

The presence in the two videos that were posted here with people video taping door to door searches in their beighborhood is what got me. I should clarify it wasnt offical Martial Law, but the strong arm of the "Militaristic" presence really did it for me. Some of the guys there were not even FBI or local LEO, they were ATF. A little overreaching and over bearing................

[Chad4000]

Im more on the side that some form of martial law was insituted... i am very uncomfortable that they can shut down all transportation, and communications.. (yes "all" means cell phones, I realize internet was up)..

Do you guys have a plan if you and your spouse are seperated when the nice man with the officers standing behind him asks very politely for you to stay in your house? (yes you sensed sarcasm there lol).. have a plan for when this happens and your kids are at daycare? food for thought......

[Bailey Guns]

Im more on the side that some form of martial law was insituted... i am very uncomfortable that they can shut down all transportation, and communications.. (yes "all" means cell phones, I realize internet was up)..

Do you guys have a plan if you and your spouse are seperated when the nice man with the officers standing behind him asks very politely for you to stay in your house? (yes you sensed sarcasm there lol).. have a plan for when this happens and your kids are at daycare? food for thought......

The press didn't seem to have any trouble communicating. Otherwise you and I wouldn't have seen everything "live". I thought the cell phones were only shut down the day of the bombing...could be wrong. But I personally know people here who were communicating with relatives in Boston via cell phones.

And see my post above about the nice man with guns telling us to leave (as opposed to stay inside) my home. We didn't. Nothing happened.

[Bailey Guns]

Thus a possibility in an EoW/SHTF/overreach scenario.

OK, sure. You win. I guess in an EoW/SHTF/overreach scenario a lot of things might happen.

[Dave_L]

The Castle Rock members tried out our radios the other night and they seem to work. Not fool proof but nice to know that some of us could stay in touch.

[mtnhack]

If the request was in fact issued at 4am, I would bet that at least 90% of the population in the area were at home. So did they force the other 10% to stay where they were, or were they allowed to get home to their family?
Someone asked what the request accomplished, and I say it allowed them to ultimately find him without any further deaths or injuries. What if none of the transit were shut down? Maybe he gets a taxi, kills the driver and gets out of town. Or maybe he gets into the mess that is mass commuting in the downtown area and gets out, or worse, is recognized and starts shooting.
You guys talk about Alex Jones' tinfoil crap, but this seems right out of his textbook. The "good guys" probably got together and asked what would be the worst case and how can we alleviate that? The answer was shut down escape methods and get people out of the way. Big deal. This was a far stretch from even Katrina.

[Chad4000]

The press didn't seem to have any trouble communicating. Otherwise you and I wouldn't have seen everything "live". I thought the cell phones were only shut down the day of the bombing...could be wrong. But I personally know people here who were communicating with relatives in Boston via cell phones.

And see my post above about the nice man with guns telling us to leave (as opposed to stay inside) my home. We didn't. Nothing happened.


well of course the press can communicate. thats where I heard that cells were shut off that day. (if you know otherwise, then I could be wrong, but i did hear that on the news). and I dont think it takes the biggest stretch of all time to go from "asking" nicely to asking not so nicely.... Boston turned out perfectly... but it was going to anyway. it always does. we caught the bad guy, the end. of course a happy ending had to follow what was going on there... again, it has nothing to do with the cops. theyre doing their job, and they do it to perfection. but, it certainly shows what exactly could happen. remember, most folks are talking long term here. is martial law coming to denver for no reason? nope... but could it come 3 years from now when some crazy with a "fully automatic assualt military rifle with a fold up stock thingy and grenade launcher bayonet" goes postal on a town with "cop killer street sweeper magazines"? I think so.....

think about this same exact situation, but instead of bomb, he used an AR and he gets away. now they are going door to door looking for something we all have.....

[Bailey Guns]

Yeah, we have ARs. Legally owned ARs. Plenty of crimes have been committed with ARs and other guns and I've never heard of the police going door-to-door to confiscate guns.

And I'm not necessarily sticking up for the police or city/state gov't here. And I don't think the police did their jobs to perfection. If they had, they wouldn't have overlooked the suspect in area previously searched. I'm just not ready to see a big, bad boogie man in this incident.

Wanna talk about massive gov't overreach? Let's talk Waco or Ruby Ridge or Katrina. I'll be all ears. But I'm not going to make bad guys or bad things out of a situation where they really don't exist (overall...not individually).

[Chad4000]

Yeah, we have ARs. Legally owned ARs. Plenty of crimes have been committed with ARs and other guns and I've never heard of the police going door-to-door to confiscate guns.

And I'm not necessarily sticking up for the police or city/state gov't here. And I don't think the police did their jobs to perfection. If they had, they wouldn't have overlooked the suspect in area previously searched. I'm just not ready to see a big, bad boogie man in this incident.

Wanna talk about massive gov't overreach? Let's talk Waco or Ruby Ridge or Katrina. I'll be all ears. But I'm not going to make bad guys or bad things out of a situation where they really don't exist (overall...not individually).

oh absolutely... I think we are a little closer then I thought before.. I will say though, that we have also had bombings where they didnt go door to door like they just did. also, with how strict some of the legislation is/might be, i forsee situations where weapons must be confiscated "until the legality can be sorted out". As in, "you have magazines that are banned", "wait officer, they have been in my continuos possession since July 1st". "Ok well once that is proven you can have your stuff back".

[Ronin13]

I cordon off the area that was so defined. I don't order an entire metro area of millions of people to hide under their desks for a day, shut down all businesses (except Dunkin' Donuts - because its too dangerous for everyone but $7 an hour donut fryers ) and shut down all transit for the entire area.
I can't find anything, but I'm curious to know, are we sure the SIP request was for the entirety of Boston or just Watertown? Having been to both locations (Boston, Watertown and Cambridge) I can say that the actual area in question isn't very large.

I leave my house at 2:30-3am to go to work and arrive at work roughly 1 hour later. I'm sure I'm not the only one in the nation. But I will give you that one if it was 4am. I'm reasonably sure that there are/were commuters heading from Boston to NYC on the trains at that time and I saw a few people interviewed from the area that were asking the same questions. My experiences in large cities is that at 4am, there are a fair amount of folks up and about.
I'll give you that, however, I don't believe a substantial amount of people, fair amount, yes, but unable to define exactly how many, let's not split hairs, point is some were, most were not.

DDP is fun to watch and get some ideas from, and who knows, maybe a lot of them are right. I sure don't see our economy or society getting better any time soon.
We're in agreement here. Things are sure to get worse before getting better.

I will ask this: Above Chief of Police, chain of command all the way to the top please. And in an EoW/SHTF scenario, who would the police be under command of?
I'm not an expert, but from my experience I believe (again, not an expert or know for sure, just from what I've learned) above Chief, Bailey is partially correct, city manager>mayor>governor>POTUS. In a SHTF/EOTWAWKI scenario, why does it matter? It's the end, we shouldn't get hung up on this as it's a bit far fetched and not productive to this discussion- ie: the world didn't end and only a minor bit of shit hit any fans.

I can't answer that because I am not privy to all the information that was available to them. But just because I am not privy to all that information, does that mean I am not allowed to ask questions or point out items that I find odd?
I'm not saying you can't ask questions, but you are criticizing the actions of a department based solely on emotion and speculative conjecture, and without offering how you would do it differently I would say that it's counter-productive to be overly critical when you yourself claim you don't have all the facts.

[jhood001]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2LrbsUVSVl8

[Aloha_Shooter]

I can't find anything, but I'm curious to know, are we sure the SIP request was for the entirety of Boston or just Watertown? Having been to both locations (Boston, Watertown and Cambridge) I can say that the actual area in question isn't very large.

The news reports on Friday referenced 400,000 people on lockdown. The populations of Watertown, Cambridge and Boston are roughly 33k, 105k, and 626k respectively with about 4.5M in the Greater Boston area so I think we can safely say it was the entire city of Boston but Watertown plus a wide radius. This jives with the guys from Boston that I met with yesterday who said Friday was basically a normal workday for them (but they work more on the outskirts of the city).

[sellersm]

That video doesn't exactly look "voluntary" to me... So what, exactly, is the point of this thread? Man is capable of such things, or even worse, as history proves.

[Chad4000]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2LrbsUVSVl8



yup... exactly.... people who dont meet the description being search... hands in the air..... no thanks....................

[mtnhack]

Ok, that video doesn't look good. That is not what I imagined the door to door looked like.

[Bailey Guns]

I got some down time here at the sweat shop so I'll jump back in here.
I totally get where Bailey is coming from and I'm sure he is probably thinking of this thread here: http://www.ar-15.co/threads/100019-House-to-house-Search
While from what little I know about BG from here I totally respect his/your point of view and opinion as they are always well thought out and articulate. I'm not sure if this post is referencing my thoughts in the linked thread but I did state in there that I'm ignorant of M.Law, and was asking for input.

That being said, simply because someone didn't proclaim ML from the Capital Building, doesn't mean they invoked some aspects of in this situation. Even as a former LEO myself (albeit a short time) I generally don't consider myself an expert. However, my father-in-law is a retired S. Deputy who did everything under the sun so I defer a lot to his expertise. While he never said "Martial Law" he did say a lot of what they did (from we can see) does stink...a lot and we both agree.

The one video I posted in the linked thread, IMHO, 'looks bad.' While, without proper context, a priest giving a young boy a lollipop can look bad too. But if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck...you know the rest.

In the linked thread, I also looped back to Katrina as I was looking for more information on how these situations affect our rights. I'm still unsure.

Again, I will just say that, it looks bad! And even though I'm ex-.mil, ex-LEO, now .gov, I'm not a big fan of government. I've seen too much of the inside to know they are generally not looking out for the individual but only looking out for the .gov machine.

Really don't know what sparked the idea of the thread, honestly. And frankly, I got out of LE when I did for a couple of reasons...one of which was I didn't like the direction LE was going from my early days. So I completely understand the sensitivities some have to LE abusing their powers. On the other hand I can tell you that even the most remote sign of misconduct on the street towards a complaining citizen was unlikely to end well for the officers. At least in the places I worked. This whole "abuse" thing works both ways.

When you've been sued for 16 million dollars because some punk kid lies about what you did, and have to spend 7 days in a federal courtroom proving your innocence, let me know how you feel then.

[Bailey Guns]

yup... exactly.... people who dont meet the description being search... hands in the air..... no thanks....................

Exactly. Criminals never have accomplices or others that they coerce into helping them. There are other possibilities, ya know, even though the video doesn't put LE in the best light. But hey...you're free to judge.

[hatidua]

Ok, that video doesn't look good. That is not what I imagined the door to door looked like.

Imagine, for a moment, if someone who carries daily, was sitting innocently at their computer when the banging on the door occurs. You are yelled at to get out of your house, after which you are searched by other LEO's down the street. Your hands are in the air and they discover a pistol inside your waistband...I can't imagine that going too well for the victims dental work when they hit the ground face-first with a boot on their back.

[Ronin13]

When you've been sued for 16 million dollars because some punk kid lies about what you did, and have to spend 7 days in a federal courtroom proving your innocence, let me know how you feel then.
Such it is due to the highly and ridiculously litigious nature of our modern society... Hence why I use the follow so frequently these days:
http://i.imgur.com/Fj3D8Cj.jpg
I totally understand your reasoning for no longer wanting to be a LEO anymore- the bullshit wears on you quick, I'll bet.

[losttrail]

Im more on the side that some form of martial law was insituted... i am very uncomfortable that they can shut down all transportation, and communications.. (yes "all" means cell phones, I realize internet was up)..

Do you guys have a plan if you and your spouse are seperated when the nice man with the officers standing behind him asks very politely for you to stay in your house? (yes you sensed sarcasm there lol).. have a plan for when this happens and your kids are at daycare? food for thought......

Yes. If you are between me and my wife and/or kids and you in any way want to inhibit my ability to unify my family, you have just become the enemy. You suffer the consequences. I wall use any and all means at my disposal or that I may acquire to remove you as an obstacle.

God, family, friends. In taht order. Nothing follows.

[losttrail]

I can't find anything, but I'm curious to know, are we sure the SIP request was for the entirety of Boston or just Watertown? Having been to both locations (Boston, Watertown and Cambridge) I can say that the actual area in question isn't very large.

I'm not saying you can't ask questions, but you are criticizing the actions of a department based solely on emotion and speculative conjecture, and without offering how you would do it differently I would say that it's counter-productive to be overly critical when you yourself claim you don't have all the facts.

I'm sorry if it came across as criticism. I respect (for the vast majority) of law enforcement and the job they do. I'm currently attend our local PD's Civilian Police Academy, know some cops, have been friends with some before, have had friends that were FBI, DEA, DHS.

I just found some things that seemd to be at a bit of a disconnect from my perspective.

Again, I respect most police and law enforcement. That does not mean that I will blindly accept everything the DEPARTMENTS do without questioning.

Sorry for the confusion. But again, I do not trust the government/politicians based upon their past and current history. Actions speak louder than words.

[clublights]

For all of you Tin foil hat wearers calling the REQUEST an Order....

... answer me this

What if this kid had gotten on the the T with some of his homemade grenades and his pistol.. then got in a shoot out with the police on a crowded train... setting off one or two of those grenades?

What if they had not sent the request and this creep rolled into an elementary school dropping grenades into class rooms as he strolled thru ?

What if they had not asked for the SIP and they got into a firefight in the middle of a crowded street during rush hour ?

then what would you be saying ?

Shutting down the T was a good idea. requesting the secure in place was a good idea.

unless someone can show me different no one was arrested for goin on the street despite the SIP request. some may have been detained but no one was arrested.

Lucky for the police the sheeple don't know the difference between an order and a request. but most of them taking the request as an order it allowed the cops to search without the chances of a firefight with a crap load of innocents in the open.

As to the door to door searches.... well I started a thread on that that morning.. go find it and we can talk about it more there.

[Dave_L]

http://imgur.com/a/Nx8EU

Not enough tin foil!

[losttrail]

For all of you Tin foil hat wearers calling the REQUEST an Order....

... answer me this

What if this kid had gotten on the the T with some of his homemade grenades and his pistol.. then got in a shoot out with the police on a crowded train... setting off one or two of those grenades?

What if they had not sent the request and this creep rolled into an elementary school dropping grenades into class rooms as he strolled thru ?

What if they had not asked for the SIP and they got into a firefight in the middle of a crowded street during rush hour ?

then what would you be saying ?

Shutting down the T was a good idea. requesting the secure in place was a good idea.

unless someone can show me different no one was arrested for goin on the street despite the SIP request. some may have been detained but no one was arrested.

Lucky for the police the sheeple don't know the difference between an order and a request. but most of them taking the request as an order it allowed the cops to search without the chances of a firefight with a crap load of innocents in the open.

As to the door to door searches.... well I started a thread on that that morning.. go find it and we can talk about it more there.

What if Bostonians were not 99% disarmed?

What if our politicians had created a national, state and local attitude that ALL CITIZENS are responsible for our own, our family and our neighbors welfare instead of relying on a telephone and hiding under the bed?

What if we lived in a nation where it was known that 50% or more of the adult populace was potentially armed and trained?

What if we lived in a nation where terrorism of any kind was not tolerated?

What if we lived in a nation that did not coddle criminals or criminal behavior?

What if we lived in a nation where the death penalty was used as a deterent not just an opportunity for criminals to have access to law books that most lawyers cannot afford, unlimited appeals, 10, 15, 20, 40 years of free room and board, free healthcare, free education, now free sex change operations?

What if we lived in a nation of people that believed in their own personal freedom and personal responsibility?

I for one never called the SIP request an order. I simply called into question whether or not this could have been viewed as a training exercise for seeing how the masses will react to potential martial laws scenarios in the future. I believe that some of the measures were prudent. But timing and other measures make me wonder.

[muddywings]

Really don't know what sparked the idea of the thread, honestly. And frankly, I got out of LE when I did for a couple of reasons...one of which was I didn't like the direction LE was going from my early days. So I completely understand the sensitivities some have to LE abusing their powers. On the other hand I can tell you that even the most remote sign of misconduct on the street towards a complaining citizen was unlikely to end well for the officers. At least in the places I worked. This whole "abuse" thing works both ways.

When you've been sued for 16 million dollars because some punk kid lies about what you did, and have to spend 7 days in a federal courtroom proving your innocence, let me know how you feel then.

Honestly, the reasons you stated were the exact reasons why I left except I hadn't been sued yet. I figured time to move on before that happened or before I had issues with a supervisor.

[Bailey Guns]

http://imgur.com/a/Nx8EU

Not enough tin foil!

Wow...

[muddywings]

For all of you Tin foil hat wearers calling the REQUEST an Order....

... answer me this

What if this kid had gotten on the the T with some of his homemade grenades and his pistol.. then got in a shoot out with the police on a crowded train... setting off one or two of those grenades?

What if they had not sent the request and this creep rolled into an elementary school dropping grenades into class rooms as he strolled thru ?

What if they had not asked for the SIP and they got into a firefight in the middle of a crowded street during rush hour ?

then what would you be saying ?

Shutting down the T was a good idea. requesting the secure in place was a good idea.

unless someone can show me different no one was arrested for goin on the street despite the SIP request. some may have been detained but no one was arrested.

Lucky for the police the sheeple don't know the difference between an order and a request. but most of them taking the request as an order it allowed the cops to search without the chances of a firefight with a crap load of innocents in the open.

As to the door to door searches.... well I started a thread on that that morning.. go find it and we can talk about it more there.


What if Bostonians were not 99% disarmed?

What if our politicians had created a national, state and local attitude that ALL CITIZENS are responsible for our own, our family and our neighbors welfare instead of relying on a telephone and hiding under the bed?

What if we lived in a nation where it was known that 50% or more of the adult populace was potentially armed and trained?

What if we lived in a nation where terrorism of any kind was not tolerated?

What if we lived in a nation that did not coddle criminals or criminal behavior?

What if we lived in a nation where the death penalty was used as a deterent not just an opportunity for criminals to have access to law books that most lawyers cannot afford, unlimited appeals, 10, 15, 20, 40 years of free room and baord, free healthcare, free education, now free sex change operations?

What if we lived in a nation of people that believed in their own personal freedom and personal responsibility?

What if the FBI followed up on the leads provided by FSB on the older brother?

I'm not a personal fan of the what if games. What if we would have banned all those assault rifles and nasty high capacity clips back in the 90s permanently...Sandy Hook would not have happened?
Freedom ain't pretty even when [shithitsfan]

[muddywings]

http://imgur.com/a/Nx8EU

Not enough tin foil!

Even I don't keep that much tinfoil around!

[clublights]

What if Bostonians were not 99% disarmed?

What if our politicians had created a national, state and local attitude that ALL CITIZENS are responsible for our own, our family and our neighbors welfare instead of relying on a telephone and hiding under the bed?

What if we lived in a nation where it was known that 50% or more of the adult populace was potentially armed and trained?

What if we lived in a nation where terrorism of any kind was not tolerated?

What if we lived in a nation that did not coddle criminals or criminal behavior?

What if we lived in a nation where the death penalty was used as a deterent not just an opportunity for criminals to have access to law books that most lawyers cannot afford, unlimited appeals, 10, 15, 20, 40 years of free room and board, free healthcare, free education, now free sex change operations?

What if we lived in a nation of people that believed in their own personal freedom and personal responsibility?

I for one never called the SIP request an order. I simply called into question whether or not this could have been viewed as a training exercise for seeing how the masses will react to potential martial laws scenarios in the future. I believe that some of the measures were prudent. But timing and other measures make me wonder.


What if the FBI followed up on the leads provided by FSB on the older brother?

I'm not a personal fan of the what if games. What if we would have banned all those assault rifles and nasty high capacity clips back in the 90s permanently...Sandy Hook would not have happened?
Freedom ain't pretty even when [shithitsfan]


Both of these are long term issues that have taken or would take years to correct/get to where they are .. AKA strategic .

the SIP Requests were tactical and short lived to cover a very real dynamic situation.

[Bailey Guns]

What if Bostonians were not 99% disarmed?

What if our politicians had created a national, state and local attitude that ALL CITIZENS are responsible for our own, our family and our neighbors welfare instead of relying on a telephone and hiding under the bed?

What if we lived in a nation where it was known that 50% or more of the adult populace was potentially armed and trained?

What if we lived in a nation where terrorism of any kind was not tolerated?

What if we lived in a nation that did not coddle criminals or criminal behavior?

What if we lived in a nation where the death penalty was used as a deterent not just an opportunity for criminals to have access to law books that most lawyers cannot afford, unlimited appeals, 10, 15, 20, 40 years of free room and board, free healthcare, free education, now free sex change operations?

What if we lived in a nation of people that believed in their own personal freedom and personal responsibility?

I for one never called the SIP request an order. I simply called into question whether or not this could have been viewed as a training exercise for seeing how the masses will react to potential martial laws scenarios in the future. I believe that some of the measures were prudent. But timing and other measures make me wonder.

What if we didn't live in a country where we're free to vote in the politicians that pass the laws that cause some of the above things to happen? The people of MA are by and large very liberal and mostly agree with the gun laws and such. Are you saying they shouldn't be allowed to live as they choose? Isn't that the point of our system of gov't?

Just like in Colorado. The people spoke and the likes of John Morse and Rhonda Fields and Evie Hudak were, as far as I know, lawfully elected. I find people with their views to be very distasteful and I wouldn't piss on any of 'em if they were on fire. But they were elected as lawmakers through our system of government. The argument can be made that they are doing what their constituents want.

And how can you imply terrorism is tolerated here? On the one hand you're saying the gov't has overreached in the pursuit of a terrorist and and on the other you're saying (or at least implying) that terrorism is tolerated. Which is it?

And personally, I think the death penalty is meant to be punishment, not a deterrent. It might serve as a deterrent to some, but that's not what it's designed to do. It's the ultimate punishment.

[clublights]

**SNIP**

And personally, I think the death penalty is meant to be punishment, not a deterrent. It might serve as a deterrent to some, but that's not what it's designed to do. It's the ultimate punishment.

Isn't all punishment a deterrent?

I mean I won't modify my barrel to less then 16" or modify my AR to full-auto because of the punishment I could face for doing it. It's a deterrent.

[losttrail]

What if the FBI followed up on the leads provided by FSB on the older brother?

I'm not a personal fan of the what if games. What if we would have banned all those assault rifles and nasty high capacity clips back in the 90s permanently...Sandy Hook would not have happened?
Freedom ain't pretty even when [shithitsfan]

I'm not a fan of 'what if' either. I just did that to show that we could 'what if' our entire lives and never reach a conclusion.

[Bailey Guns]

Isn't all punishment a deterrent?

I mean I won't modify my barrel to less then 16" or modify my AR to full-auto because of the punishment I could face for doing it. It's a deterrent.

It is to me. Probably just semantics.

[davsel]

http://imgur.com/a/Nx8EU

Not enough tin foil!

Remove a layer of tinfoil:
http://www.getonhand.com/blogs/news/7743337-boston-bombing-suspect-shootout-pictures

[clublights]

Losttrail,

Scrolling back ..( page 2 post # 19) I don't think you know the chain of events that lead to the SIP request.....

the late evening of Thursday/ early morning friday, these brothers killed an MIT campus Cop, then Carjacked a guy. then sortly after the police caught up to them and they lead the police in a rolling firefight thru the streets of boston while throwing grenades at the following police. at some point they stopped the car .... tho continued the fire fight, with the older brother being killed and the younger escaping ( while supposedly running his own brother over with the car) only AFTER all of this in " short order" ( over just a few hours) was the SIP request Issued and the public transport such as the T shut down.

[clublights]

It is to me. Probably just semantics.

Your probably correct...

but like in my example above .. if the only punishment was to have an ATF agent wag his finger at me saying " your not supposed to do that" I'd probably do it. but the idea of going to federal pound me in the ass prison for a few years deters me from breaking those laws.

[clublights]

Remove a layer of tinfoil:
http://www.getonhand.com/blogs/news/7743337-boston-bombing-suspect-shootout-pictures


none of the pics are loading for me ....

damn it .. I even turned adblock off..

[Bailey Guns]

The guy took the photos down about 10 mins ago. Bummer.

[losttrail]

What if we didn't live in a country where we're free to vote in the politicians that pass the laws that cause some of the above things to happen? The people of MA are by and large very liberal and mostly agree with the gun laws and such. Are you saying they shouldn't be allowed to live as they choose? Isn't that the point of our system of gov't?

Just like in Colorado. The people spoke and the likes of John Morse and Rhonda Fields and Evie Hudak were, as far as I know, lawfully elected. I find people with their views to be very distasteful and I wouldn't piss on any of 'em if they were on fire. But they were elected as lawmakers through our system of government. The argument can be made that they are doing what their constituents want.

[QUOTE=Bailey Guns;1095321]And how can you imply terrorism is tolerated here? On the one hand you're saying the gov't has overreached in the pursuit of a terrorist and and on the other you're saying (or at least implying) that terrorism is tolerated. Which is it?

Both. The possible overreach in Boston is an example.

Conversely the examples of drug cartels infringing across our border into Phoenix, AZ and other cities, kidnapping American citizens is an example of terrorism not being squelched. Our government putting up signs miles within our own border warning American citizens that Mexican drug gangs are operating in the area and it is not safe to hike, camp, motorcycle or ATV in those areas is an example of terrorism being tolerated.


And personally, I think the death penalty is meant to be punishment, not a deterrent. It might serve as a deterrent to some, but that's not what it's designed to do. It's the ultimate punishment.

If the death penalty were swift, efficient and public, it would be a deterrent. If people knew that if they committed murder, drug trafficing to children, pedophillia, rape, whatever we as society deem to be capital offenses, should they be caught in the act and/or convicted by a perponderance of evidence, would be publicly executed within 24 hours, it would be a deterrent.

If convicted of a capital offense without a perponderance of evidence, given one appeal within 12 months. If still found guilty, public execution, that would be a deterrent.

As it is there are a number of capital offense that have been committed around the country by persons that purposfully committed their crimes in states WITHOUT the death penalty because they knew they could not be put to death.

Punishment should be a deterrent as well as a consequence.

When we were little, didn't we all make some decisions based upon whether or not we would get our backsides warmed? Potential of punishment was a deterrent.

[losttrail]

Losttrail,

Scrolling back ..( page 2 post # 19) I don't think you know the chain of events that lead to the SIP request.....

the late evening of Thursday/ early morning friday, these brothers killed an MIT campus Cop, then Carjacked a guy. then sortly after the police caught up to them and they lead the police in a rolling firefight thru the streets of boston while throwing grenades at the following police. at some point they stopped the car .... tho continued the fire fight, with the older brother being killed and the younger escaping ( while supposedly running his own brother over with the car) only AFTER all of this in " short order" ( over just a few hours) was the SIP request Issued and the public transport such as the T shut down.

Thanks for the concise clarification of the timeline.

I still question things though. Maybe my theory of it being a possible test of citizen reaction is wrong. I hope so. But I still believe it is good to think about possible alternative reasons and ask questions.

[clublights]

The guy took the photos down about 10 mins ago. Bummer.


there are still links to some of the pics on his twitter feed..as well as a video during the shootout ( real dark cant see much )

https://twitter.com/AKitz

Link to the video

http://twitter.yfrog.com/1fu2xpnryybxwjqpdtnynwdaz?sa=0

[Ronin13]

http://imgur.com/a/Nx8EU

Not enough tin foil!
This string of images and conclusion brought to you by Infowars.com (or perhaps one of its subsidiaries) [facepalm]

[Bailey Guns]

People have been killing other people since the beginning of peoplehood. And they've done it in places where the punishment of death was oftentimes immediate and not pretty. But yet people continued to kill, and still do to this day. When someone is sentenced to death and spends 20+ years on death row, I don't see that as much of a deterrent most criminals are going to ponder.

Just to be clear, I'm a strong supporter of capital punishment because it's punishment that fits the crime...not because it's a deterrent.

The death penalty is an entirely different discussion, though.

[clublights]

here is a pic from that guys instagram of the brothers shooting at the cops

http://instagram.com/p/YRlJQEDxin/

[Dave_L]

People have been killing other people since the beginning of peoplehood. And they've done it in places where the punishment of death was oftentimes immediate and not pretty. But yet people continued to kill, and still do to this day. When someone is sentenced to death and spends 20+ years on death row, I don't see that as much of a deterrent most criminals are going to ponder.

Just to be clear, I'm a strong supporter of capital punishment because it's punishment that fits the crime...not because it's a deterrent.

The death penalty is an entirely different discussion, though.

The only thing that stops criminals is making the reward not worth the consequences. For some, you'll never be able to do that. People can be evil and twisted. "Some people just want to watch the world burn."

[Bailey Guns]

I bet the cops were happy those two were illuminating themselves in their own headlights. That's pretty thoughtful of them.

The twitter thing doesn't do me any good. I'm not Twitliterate...don't really know how to use it.

[clublights]

I bet the cops were happy those two were illuminating themselves in their own headlights. That's pretty thoughtful of them.

The twitter thing doesn't do me any good. I'm not Twitliterate...don't really know how to use it.

I'm not a twitter guy either.. but ifyou scroll down to his posts from the 19th some have links to pics

[Chad4000]

Exactly. Criminals never have accomplices or others that they coerce into helping them. There are other possibilities, ya know, even though the video doesn't put LE in the best light. But hey...you're free to judge.


Youre losing me again BG.... any reason to believe this guy had accomplices? any reason to believe any of those people posed a threat? exactly....... clearing houses like that is not cool. no matter how pissy we all get about a pressure cooker bomb or two.


I will be judging....

[Chad4000]

Yes. If you are between me and my wife and/or kids and you in any way want to inhibit my ability to unify my family, you have just become the enemy. You suffer the consequences. I wall use any and all means at my disposal or that I may acquire to remove you as an obstacle.

God, family, friends. In taht order. Nothing follows.

Oh I agree....so what are you going to do??? you have swat outside your door, pushing you around. They are passing you to the other cops so that they can search you. you wont be able to leave, or drive anywhere, because there are barricades up and humvees blocking off all your exits.... you havent heard from your wife who works downtown because cell towers are turned off, and your 3 year old son is at day care........

I mean, they have us by the fuggin balls........ theres no fighting here........ this is scary to me......

[losttrail]

Oh I agree....so what are you going to do??? you have swat outside your door, pushing you around. They are passing you to the other cops so that they can search you. you wont be able to leave, or drive anywhere, because there are barricades up and humvees blocking off all your exits.... you havent heard from your wife who works downtown because cell towers are turned off, and your 3 year old son is at day care........

I mean, they have us by the fuggin balls........ theres no fighting here........ this is scary to me......

The police are not omnipotent. Backup plan upon backup plan. Doors and windows are not necessarily the only way out of my home. I have always managed to have an....alternative way out of every house I've owned except one.

And bad guys aren't the only ones that can have accomplices.

[Chad4000]

The police are not omnipotent. Backup plan upon backup plan. Doors and windows are not necessarily the only way out of my home. I have always managed to have an....alternative way out of every house I've owned except one.

And bad guys aren't the only ones that can have accomplices.


awesome... I love that....

makes me think a little about my setup... seriously.

[clublights]

The police are not omnipotent. Backup plan upon backup plan. Doors and windows are not necessarily the only way out of my home. I have always managed to have an....alternative way out of every house I've owned except one.

And bad guys aren't the only ones that can have accomplices.

So you having a back up plan in case of " what if" is prudent and a good idea...

The police having ( and using ) a back up plan in case of what if = evil


yeah.... that makes sense.

[Chad4000]

So you having a back up plan in case of " what if" is prudent and a good idea...

The police having ( and using ) a back up plan in case of what if = evil


yeah.... that makes sense.

are you suggesting that searching door to door was their backup plan?

[clublights]

are you suggesting that searching door to door was their backup plan?


yes and no.. I was more referring to the Secure in Place requests and shutting down the T ...


However the door to door search was a back up plan to just catching the guy walking down the street...

Also from most reports I have read.. and seeing as a general lack of public out cry I believe that at least 99% of the house searches were voluntary .
But again .. if we wanna beat this horse anymore.. we should go back to the thread I started that morning about it ... when it was happening live.

[Bailey Guns]

Youre losing me again BG.... any reason to believe this guy had accomplices? any reason to believe any of those people posed a threat? exactly....... clearing houses like that is not cool. no matter how pissy we all get about a pressure cooker bomb or two.


I will be judging....

Just saying you don't know the situation by watching the video. Someone could've ran up to the cops and said, "OH MY GOD! He's in that house! I saw him go in there." That's all. We don't know what led the cops to focus on that house. Because it didn't seem that they were interested in any other houses the way they were in that one.

[Chad4000]

Just saying you don't know the situation by watching the video. Someone could've ran up to the cops and said, "OH MY GOD! He's in that house! I saw him go in there." That's all. We don't know what led the cops to focus on that house. Because it didn't seem that they were interested in any other houses the way they were in that one.

that's true.. [Beer]

[Bailey Guns]

i think the moral that we can take away from all of this is...


dont live in the city, dont go to the city, dont think about the city.

and mooslims are not our friends.

I'll drink to that!

[Beer]

[clublights]

i think the moral that we can take away from all of this is...


dont live in the city, dont go to the city, dont think about the city.

and mooslims are not our friends.


Well I'm screwed on the first 3...


but I'll drink to #4!

[CroiDhubh]

What if we didn't live in a country where we're free to vote in the politicians that pass the laws that cause some of the above things to happen? The people of MA are by and large very liberal and mostly agree with the gun laws and such. Are you saying they shouldn't be allowed to live as they choose? Isn't that the point of our system of gov't?

Just like in Colorado. The people spoke and the likes of John Morse and Rhonda Fields and Evie Hudak were, as far as I know, lawfully elected. I find people with their views to be very distasteful and I wouldn't piss on any of 'em if they were on fire. But they were elected as lawmakers through our system of government. The argument can be made that they are doing what their constituents want.

And how can you imply terrorism is tolerated here? On the one hand you're saying the gov't has overreached in the pursuit of a terrorist and and on the other you're saying (or at least implying) that terrorism is tolerated. Which is it?

And personally, I think the death penalty is meant to be punishment, not a deterrent. It might serve as a deterrent to some, but that's not what it's designed to do. It's the ultimate punishment.

The nazi party had a word for people like you: Useful Idiots.




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2LrbsUVSVl8

Yeah...seems REALLY volunteer to me. If he said "No", they would have destroyed that place. Honestly, I can't say what I would be saying and doing if this were on my door step, as there is probably some stupid law preventing it.




Some of you guys really need to take a deep breath and relax. Some serious paranoia going on around here.

You're part of the problem. "Just relax, it's not bad!" is a famous set of last words.

[Bailey Guns]

Wow. A lot of deep, intellectual contemplation went into that post. 7 pages of useful discussion and in one post you tard the whole thing up. Congratulations.

[Dingo]

Wow. A lot of deep, intellectual contemplation went into that post. 7 pages of useful discussion and in one post you tard the whole thing up. Congratulations.

No shit. I love the "I'm right, cuz yer an idiot..." rebuttal. Erudite, witty, scathing, and refreshingly new!

Also a nice little variation on Godwin's law there, trotting in the Nazi references as the final showstopper.

Amazing.

[muddywings]

Wow. A lot of deep, intellectual contemplation went into that post. 7 pages of useful discussion and in one post you tard the whole thing up. Congratulations.

I'm only on page 4. (hey someone gave me crap for it a while back...)

[clublights]

Wow. A lot of deep, intellectual contemplation went into that post. 7 pages of useful discussion and in one post you tard the whole thing up. Congratulations.


Newbies..


What ya gunna do ?

[sellersm]

What if we didn't live in a country where we're free to vote in the politicians that pass the laws that cause some of the above things to happen? The people of MA are by and large very liberal and mostly agree with the gun laws and such. Are you saying they shouldn't be allowed to live as they choose? Isn't that the point of our system of gov't?

Just like in Colorado. The people spoke and the likes of John Morse and Rhonda Fields and Evie Hudak were, as far as I know, lawfully elected. I find people with their views to be very distasteful and I wouldn't piss on any of 'em if they were on fire. But they were elected as lawmakers through our system of government. The argument can be made that they are doing what their constituents want.

And how can you imply terrorism is tolerated here? On the one hand you're saying the gov't has overreached in the pursuit of a terrorist and and on the other you're saying (or at least implying) that terrorism is tolerated. Which is it?

And personally, I think the death penalty is meant to be punishment, not a deterrent. It might serve as a deterrent to some, but that's not what it's designed to do. It's the ultimate punishment.

For the sake of discussion, and to continue with the "what if" motif... What if the elections weren't really what we think they were? What if they aren't as forthright and honest and clear-cut as we're led to believe? Would that change the scenery if we found out that these citizens weren't really as liberal as the election "results" would lead you to believe?

As to the terrorism comment: notice how the MSM has portrayed this "young kid". He's just a "young kid", "normal college kid", etc. etc. And the POTUS himself didn't mention terrorism, EXCEPT to say that "The FBI is investigating it as a terrorism event". He's not owned up to using the T-word outside of any other context... So how does that play in this discussion? Does this portrayal indicate to the average citizen (whatever that really means) that terrorism is tolerated? Or doesn't it?

Just my .00000001 cents in the discussion.

[Bailey Guns]

Well, we could "what if" everything to death, I suppose. I don't really have an answer to your questions. However, a trial is beginning regarding voter fraud that may (or may not) prove Obama wasn't eligible for placement on the primary ballot in Indiana. So, stranger things have happened.

My point in that post was just to point out that as contrary to our beliefs as liberalism may be to me and some others, the liberals are in power in places like MA and elsewhere (ummm...like Colorado) through the system we have in place. When Bush was president the liberals bitched and moaned (and threw about stupid references to Nazis a lot) about him and conservatives. I see liberalism as a threat to our traditional American way of life and it is contrary to my personal beliefs and values. Others see conservatism that way. Hell...even conservatives can't agree on what's conservative.

But, that's the way our elections work. Sometimes we win and sometimes we don't. It's been that way for a few hundred years now.

[brokenscout]

CISPA, CIA does control the media
http://imgur.com/a/Nx8EU

Not enough tin foil!

[losttrail]

Well, we could "what if" everything to death, I suppose. I don't really have an answer to your questions. However, a trial is beginning regarding voter fraud that may (or may not) prove Obama wasn't eligible for placement on the primary ballot in Indiana. So, stranger things have happened.

My point in that post was just to point out that as contrary to our beliefs as liberalism may be to me and some others, the liberals are in power in places like MA and elsewhere (ummm...like Colorado) through the system we have in place. When Bush was president the liberals bitched and moaned (and threw about stupid references to Nazis a lot) about him and conservatives. I see liberalism as a threat to our traditional American way of life and it is contrary to my personal beliefs and values. Others see conservatism that way. Hell...even conservatives can't agree on what's conservative.

But, that's the way our elections work. Sometimes we win and sometimes we don't. It's been that way for a few hundred years now.

But the bigger problem (bigger than the election process) is the infiltration of liberalism (Marxism) into so many facets of government. Dept. of Education is run by liberals (Marxists) and no longer educate but indoctrinate. Look at how the US has fallen behind the rest of the world in math, science, etc. since Carter created the DoE.

Look at Colorado creating sanctuary cities out of Denver and Boulder. Providing in-state tuition for illegals, getting ready to provide drivers licenses to illegals. All over the nation our elected "representatives" are giving illegals all manner of benefits paid for by an ever shrinking working population.

Look at Kalifornia. Overrun with liberals that punish ciitizens and reward illegals and ne'er-do-wells.

[Bailey Guns]

But the bigger problem (bigger than the election process) is the infiltration of liberalism (Marxism) into so many facets of government. Dept. of Education is run by liberals (Marxists) and no longer educate but indoctrinate. Look at how the US has fallen behind the rest of the world in math, science, etc. since Carter created the DoE.

Look at Colorado creating sanctuary cities out of Denver and Boulder. Providing in-state tuition for illegals, getting ready to provide drivers licenses to illegals. All over the nation our elected "representatives" are giving illegals all manner of benefits paid for by an ever shrinking working population.

Look at Kalifornia. Overrun with liberals that punish ciitizens and reward illegals and ne'er-do-wells.

I agree. As a matter of fact, I posted this in a thread in the L&P forum:


http://www.ar-15.co/images/tf_ideal/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by roberth http://www.ar-15.co/images/tf_ideal/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.ar-15.co/showthread.php?p=1096491#post1096491)

I have been thinking on this for a long time and I just don't see any other way to do it. There are other solutions but they require the government and citizens to completely revamp their thinking and that is definitely not going to happen.


That's true. But what bothers me about that is when they decide to go full-on commie. With the current crop of elected officials and electorate I'd say that's a more logical progression than moving to the right and correcting the issues in a conservative sense.

Despite how bad it is now, it CAN get worse. I'm glad I'm not 25 and have to live my entire life watching the downfall of my country.

And seriously...how do we change it within the system? Can it even be done? You can vote for those that share you ideals, you can encourage and educate others to do the same, you can send letters, you can complain, you can sue in court, you can even run for office. When that fails, and we're still sliding downward, what then?

I think that's the same thing you said in so many words.

[sellersm]

I think history tells us how change happens.


Sent from my fat fingers using Tapatalk

[ChunkyMonkey]

I have been enjoying the argument back and forth til the newb showed up. It's going downhill from here on I suspect.

[sellersm]

I have been enjoying the argument back and forth til the newb showed up. It's going downhill from here on I suspect.

Possibly. Hope not...

It's interesting to look at the historical 'cycle of change' in civilizations and cultures. At some point, there's some form of 'revolution' (not always in the strictest sense of the word): a clear and distinct change in leadership or something, which turns the direction and then, after some period of time, it happens again...and again...

So, if we look at history, what was the critical, participating event that caused folks to see that their current system was no longer 'working'?

[Ronin13]

Wow. A lot of deep, intellectual contemplation went into that post. 7 pages of useful discussion and in one post you tard the whole thing up. Congratulations.
[Beer] I like the way you worded that!

No shit. I love the "I'm right, cuz yer an idiot..." rebuttal. Erudite, witty, scathing, and refreshingly new!

Also a nice little variation on Godwin's law there, trotting in the Nazi references as the final showstopper.

Amazing.
My thoughts exactly. Where is that "Liberal Infiltrators" thread? Do we need to add another name to the Nynco list?

I have been enjoying the argument back and forth til the newb showed up. It's going downhill from here on I suspect.
18 hours later, still nothing... wait for it... he'll either bite or ignore it- then we'll see what kind of person they will be (please don't be like Melvin)...

[ChunkyMonkey]

On that subject, the modern banking make sure there is a 'balance' of market inflation, deflation, recession, and rescission to make sure they stay in control. They are trying damn hard to get into china right now

[Bailey Guns]

Possibly. Hope not...

It's interesting to look at the historical 'cycle of change' in civilizations and cultures. At some point, there's some form of 'revolution' (not always in the strictest sense of the word): a clear and distinct change in leadership or something, which turns the direction and then, after some period of time, it happens again...and again...

So, if we look at history, what was the critical, participating event that caused folks to see that their current system was no longer 'working'?

Here? It was when the colonists realized they were giving and giving to a monarchy that was corrupt and non-responsive to their needs. It was when they realized that under their system they couldn't enjoy their freedoms and the fruits of their labors because they were required to give more to the king, and by doing this they would never be free.

[Ronin13]

Possibly. Hope not...

It's interesting to look at the historical 'cycle of change' in civilizations and cultures. At some point, there's some form of 'revolution' (not always in the strictest sense of the word): a clear and distinct change in leadership or something, which turns the direction and then, after some period of time, it happens again...and again...

So, if we look at history, what was the critical, participating event that caused folks to see that their current system was no longer 'working'?
The fall of empires is also in that historical cycle- Greece (not modern), Rome, Mongols... every empire must come to an end. I just hope our civilization (America) doesn't collapse in my lifetime, and I'll do what I can to try and help so it won't.

Here? It was when the colonists realized they were giving and giving to a monarchy that was corrupt and non-responsive to their needs. It was when they realized that under their system they couldn't enjoy their freedoms and the fruits of their labors because they were required to give more to the king, and by doing this they would never be free.
THIS! Problem is, when will people wake up and realize that the takers are beginning to outnumber the givers?

[sellersm]

THIS! Problem is, when will people wake up and realize that the takers are beginning to outnumber the givers?

And after they wake up?

[Ronin13]

And after they wake up?
Realize that eventually the burden to the system will be too great and it will collapse. Or 1776 all over again. [Dunno]

[Dave_L]

I feel like we're already seeing divisions amongst the population. It'll just take one spark (someone to snap on someone using food stamps with their cadillac out front) and things will get very crazy in a hurry.

[TS12000]

THIS! Problem is, when will people wake up and realize that the takers are beginning to outnumber the givers?

Beginning to? The package has arrived, been signed for, and opened already man. It's over.

[Bailey Guns]

And after they wake up?

And the answer is the one no one wants to talk about.

[losttrail]

Realize that eventually the burden to the system will be too great and it will collapse. Or 1776 all over again. [Dunno]


"I hold it that a little rebellion now and then is a good thing, and as necessary in the political world as storms in the physical (http://www.earlyamerica.com/review/summer/letter.html#)." Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, January 30, 1787

[asmo]

If it looks like a duck...

or wood.. oh oh small rocks.

[Ronin13]

Beginning to? The package has arrived, been signed for, and opened already man. It's over.
I was trying to not be all doomy and gloomy, it is only Wednesday, after all. [Flower]

And the answer is the one no one wants to talk about.
Yep.

or wood.. oh oh small rocks.
[ROFL1] She's a witch! Burn her! I love that movie!

[sellersm]

"If she weighs the same as a duck... she's made of wood!"