View Full Version : ? about new background laws
I don't know if this has been covered or not but my question is after the background check for private sales kick in how does this work?
If I make a sale to another person and we meet up at the FFL dealer, do I take his money and give the firearm to the FFL and walk away so he can enter it into his books then perform a 4473 background check on the buyer? Do I wait until the buyer passes the background check?
Am I correct that once the FFL books the firearm he must transfer it out even to the original owner?
Any insight would be appreciated.
clublights
04-27-2013, 19:13
Not sure anyone knows quite yet.......
poorly written laws leave many questions un answered.
The purpose of the background check is to "approve" the transfer to go forward. No background check, no legal transfer. Background check not successful, no legal transfer.
rockhound
04-27-2013, 22:38
Seems you would have to wait for the bgc to clear then collect your money, and no you will not get your gun back until you pass a bgc
Just curios, people are abiding this law? Lol
BlasterBob
04-28-2013, 08:43
Just curios, people are abiding this law? Lol
I guess you mean,
"Just curious, ARE people GOING TO BE abiding this law"?
This law does not go into effect until 7/1/13.
baglock1
04-28-2013, 09:00
Just curios, people are abiding this law? Lol
I would imagine no one will abide by the law until examples are made. Since the state doesn't have much support from Sheriffs, they'll likely request ATF assistance in enforcing the laws. If that doesn't fly (for legal or funding reasons), state police will open a new department or local PD will be made offers they can't refuse (through funding).
Or maybe it won't be a big deal and the politicians will be content to brag about all they've done to stop gun violence and they won't bother trying to enforce it.
I'm not going to get into illegal activity and how to circumvent it (the mods have made it clear they don't want it discussed and I don't blame them), but I'm quite sure that some method of safely getting around this will work itself out. Selling to complete strangers will probably become pretty rare but selling to people you have dealt with before are sure to continue.
I guess you mean,
"Just curious, ARE people GOING TO BE abiding this law"?
This law does not go into effect until 7/1/13.
Maybe I'm confused but I thought that the law to start in July is the hi-cap mags and the backgcheck and bkgcheck fee already started in March, if not why the FFL Dealers start to take the $10 fee in march?
Anyway I don't found a way to enforce this laws, the only way is with GUN REGISTRATION. I'm a law abiding citizen and I will continue abiding the law but I'm pretty sure that people that not visit forums, don't see news will not obey this law, if a senator say in public "I will not obey this law" what expect for many people?
They need to do something to enforce this laws but I'm so scary about GUN REGISTRATION
why the FFL Dealers start to take the $10 fee in march?
I'd like to hear the answer to that one as well......?
I'd like to hear the answer to that one as well......?
the $10 bs tax started already, all other bs laws take effect july 1
Circuits
04-28-2013, 10:34
Maybe I'm confused but I thought that the law to start in July is the hi-cap mags and the backgcheck and bkgcheck fee already started in March, if not why the FFL Dealers start to take the $10 fee in march?
BG check fee kicked in as of 3/20/13. BG check requirement for private sales, and magazine ban do not take effect until 7/1/13.
I imagine it will be implemented the same way as the background checks currently required for private transactions conducted at gunshows. As I haven't gone to a gunshow since long before that stupid law took effect, and am an FFL it doesn't apply to anyway, I have no idea how that's been working for the past seven years.
Only the purchaser has a background check going on, so you are still in possession of your gun until YOU sell it. The change is that you have to wait until a background check completes. You do not escrow your gun with the dealer. If you did this, you are selling it to him, and if the BG fails, he would be stuck with it. A number of stores are saying they will not participate in this, since it does not really help them make revenue, and is alot of overhead.
BlasterBob
04-30-2013, 18:10
Only the purchaser has a background check going on, so you are still in possession of your gun until YOU sell it. The change is that you have to wait until a background check completes. You do not escrow your gun with the dealer. If you did this, you are selling it to him, and if the BG fails, he would be stuck with it. A number of stores are saying they will not participate in this, since it does not really help them make revenue, and is alot of overhead.
As I understand the new BG check requirements, the seller hands the firearm over to the FFL who MUST log/enter it into his "book" as a received firearm. Is not logged out until the purchaser gets the CBI clearance. I believe the firearm has to stay with the FFL (even for days if the CBI is slow again) until it is logged out. It would appear that it had better be there if the BATF makes a surprise inspection and will want to know why it's missing IF the FFL were to give the firearm back to the seller while waiting for the clearance notification (that is if it takes more than a day for the notification to be received).
It will be very interesting if the purchaser does not pass the BG check AND the seller also fails the BG check. What disposition will be made of the firearm. This thing can get real complicated!!
I only bought one rifle at the gun show and IIRC he went with me to the lady that was doing $10 BGC to fill out some form and I did the 4473, once cleared I took the form to him and he still had the rifle. If the new law is written that I have to give the firearm to the FFL before the buyers BGC is complete I may just co-sign it or make the buyer give me the money as I give it to the FFL with the understanding he needs to bail out the firearm from the FFL, he bought it and if he can't pass the BGC he needs to co-sign it with that FFL to get his money back if law and FFL permits this theory.
Really, so the firearm is in escrow, basically?
(4) IF THE BUREAU APPROVES A TRANSFER OF A FIREARM
19 PURSUANT TO THIS SECTION, THE APPROVAL SHALL BE VALID FOR THIRTY
20 CALENDAR DAYS, DURING WHICH TIME THE TRANSFEROR AND TRANSFEREE
21 MAY COMPLETE THE TRANSFER.
Hope this helps resolve the question, I read that the FFL gives you the background report, with pass/fail, and it's up to you to enforce it.
Delfuego
04-30-2013, 23:02
As I understand the new BG check requirements, the seller hands the firearm over to the FFL who MUST log/enter it into his "book" as a received firearm. Is not logged out until the purchaser gets the CBI clearance. I believe the firearm has to stay with the FFL (even for days if the CBI is slow again) until it is logged out. It would appear that it had better be there if the BATF makes a surprise inspection and will want to know why it's missing IF the FFL were to give the firearm back to the seller while waiting for the clearance notification (that is if it takes more than a day for the notification to be received).
It will be very interesting if the purchaser does not pass the BG check AND the seller also fails the BG check. What disposition will be made of the firearm. This thing can get real complicated!!
I was told by my FFL just two days ago that this is the way it will happen. Also if the buyer fails his BG check, the seller will have pay for and pass a new BG check the re-take possession of the firearm.
Why wouldn't you just hold onto your gun until the other guy passes the background check, then the dealer can dick around with the input/output paper work. Why must the gun be in possession of the dealer before the background check can be done? Since when does a gun have to even be part of the equation to run a background check?
Why wouldn't you just hold onto your gun until the other guy passes the background check, then the dealer can dick around with the input/output paper work. Why must the gun be in possession of the dealer before the background check can be done? Since when does a gun have to even be part of the equation to run a background check?
I don't know but I'm not participating in any of this tomfoolery.
Great-Kazoo
05-01-2013, 00:07
Why wouldn't you just hold onto your gun until the other guy passes the background check, then the dealer can dick around with the input/output paper work. Why must the gun be in possession of the dealer before the background check can be done? Since when does a gun have to even be part of the equation to run a background check?
Because in order to transfer the firearm the FFL MUST Log the gun in to their bound book. Once the BGC gets approved the owner takes possession. IF the BGC buyer gets denied. You the seller must have a bgc check done on you in order to have the gun taken off the FFL's books. What's happening is the FFL is now acting as the "middle man" for the deal.
My question is, why MUST the gun be transfered to the FFL before the back ground check is submited? In fact, why must the FFL be involved at all? You can run a background check on anyone, at anytime, if you have the correct info. Is the background check you run for renting an apartment different than the one you run for purchasing a gun? If so, why couldn't the public simply call the CBI directly like the FFL can?
Great-Kazoo
05-01-2013, 06:42
My question is, why MUST the gun be transfered to the FFL before the back ground check is submited? In fact, why must the FFL be involved at all? You can run a background check on anyone, at anytime, if you have the correct info. Is the background check you run for renting an apartment different than the one you run for purchasing a gun? If so, why couldn't the public simply call the CBI directly like the FFL can?
Because the CO .Gov will not let Non-FFL's have access. Which is one of the points of contention the voters, sheriffs and some state rep's have with this law.
Common Sense was never the intent, or purpose, of the Dem introduced and passed gun laws
IIRC you also need clearance for the ability to access NCIC, Anyone confirm or deny this?
the $10 bs tax started already...
This is correct. That law took effect on March 20th (as soon as the governor signed it into law).
My question is, why MUST the gun be transfered to the FFL before the back ground check is submited? In fact, why must the FFL be involved at all? You can run a background check on anyone, at anytime, if you have the correct info. Is the background check you run for renting an apartment different than the one you run for purchasing a gun? If so, why couldn't the public simply call the CBI directly like the FFL can?
The background check done transfer a gun is more in-depth than the one done for employment or apartment rental. You also need an FFL number to request it.
Why wouldn't you just hold onto your gun until the other guy passes the background check, then the dealer can dick around with the input/output paper work. Why must the gun be in possession of the dealer before the background check can be done? Since when does a gun have to even be part of the equation to run a background check?
The firearm does not to be in "possession" of the FFL dealer (i.e. entered into their bound book) but he/she must have the physical presence of the item so that they can verify that the serial number being entered is in fact the one from that particular gun.
BlasterBob
05-01-2013, 09:51
The firearm does not to be in "possession" of the FFL dealer (i.e. entered into their bound book) but he/she must have the physical presence of the item so that they can verify that the serial number being entered is in fact the one from that particular gun.
So cysoto, what you are saying is kinda difficult for ME to understand. From the way you worded the above, you are saying that the firearm does not have to be entered in their bound book yet you indicate that the serial number is being entered - entered where if not in THE book. OK, so if it is actually entered into the dealers book and the seller takes it back home because the CBI is falling behind again and it takes days to receive the go ahead to release the firearm to the buyer. What happens when the BATF sends one of their boys to make an inspection of the book and inventory and they see this particular firearm is entered in the receipt side of the book but in checking the inventory, finds this one is missing. Are they going to take the good word of the dealer that it is merely a pending transaction? I still believe (but do not like it) that the firearm must be taken in "possession" once it is entered into the bound book. I will admit that I am NOT a FFL dealer and certainly don't claim to be real familiar with all of the BATF requirements but am only going by what I have been reading. We shall see how it transpires soon.
Yah, no way I'm giving a gun to the FFL to hold, plus I don't see anywhere in the law where that is demanded.
Great-Kazoo
05-01-2013, 10:51
As a FFL, I'm not doing any transfers unless they are logged. Sorry, I don't sacrifice my licenses based on legal opinions of the uninformed.
We have to comply with FEDERAL regulations. I don't care how anyone interprets the State law. These are managed as private transactions, which even CO will tell the dealer must be logged. (anyone running instacheck - read the instructions on the dealer/private selector)
Now, that said:
When dealers run instacheck, we don't transmit serial numbers, make, model, manufacturer, etc. We keep those on file only at the business location. *tin foil off*
It absolutely has to be logged.
The only thing that doesn't need to be logged: You bring in a gun for work, we tweak it here and there and get it back to you the same day.
We fill out a 4473? We're going to lose our license if there isn't corresponding firearms in the BB. We can't just run a blank "check".
PS: I'm the only one in the State that does transfers free. So I'm not making money from this. But I'm damn sure I don't sacrifice the rest of my operation while doing those transfers.
AND this is what a lot of folks do not comprehend. 4473 done, better be a paper trail of gun in / gun out.
BlasterBob
05-01-2013, 11:17
Repeating in part:
It absolutely has to be logged.
We fill out a 4473? We're going to lose our license if there isn't corresponding firearms in the BB. We can't just run a blank "check".
ETA: Understand, that the gun does not have to be "transferred" to the FFL, it does however have to be logged by the FFL, and the FFL has to verify the firearm in order to log it. Conceivabley, in a P2P transfer after July 1st, a FFL (may) be in the right to let the seller (transferor) sign off on the bottom of page 3 once the transfer is complete - and the firearm is never truly in the FFL's possession; though it is logged.
I sure agree with all of the foxtrot post but am still not clear on one thing. The firearm is entered into the BB with serial number, description and who the seller is but what if the CBI is taking numerous days in producing the clearance for the sale. During those days of waiting on the CBI, the firearm is still in the FFL's inventory so he is more or less "responsible" for the firearm. It may not be "transferred" (transfer ownership) to the FFL dealer but it must remain in his "inventory" until the final 4473 is signed off on. foxtrot, isn't that corrrect?
So cysoto, what you are saying is kinda difficult for ME to understand. From the way you worded the above, you are saying that the firearm does not have to be entered in their bound book yet you indicate that the serial number is being entered - entered where if not in THE book. OK, so if it is actually entered into the dealers book and the seller takes it back home because the CBI is falling behind again and it takes days to receive the go ahead to release the firearm to the buyer. What happens when the BATF sends one of their boys to make an inspection of the book and inventory and they see this particular firearm is entered in the receipt side of the book but in checking the inventory, finds this one is missing. Are they going to take the good word of the dealer that it is merely a pending transaction? I still believe (but do not like it) that the firearm must be taken in "possession" once it is entered into the bound book. I will admit that I am NOT a FFL dealer and certainly don't claim to be real familiar with all of the BATF requirements but am only going by what I have been reading. We shall see how it transpires soon.
As it has already been mentioned, the serial number of the firearm is not shared with CBI; however, the serial number needs to be included in the 4473. If I understand you correctly, what you are asking is "what happens if the transaction doesn't happen on the the same day of the background check (for example when a BG check is initiated at the end of their work day)." If this is the case, the firearm needs to be entered into the bound-book and, if the purchaser is not approved (and the buyer wants their gun back), the original owner will need to have a 4473 done on themselves in order to have the firearm return to them.
The lack of information on this new law has complicated things quite a bit but it really is not as difficult as some folks are making it out to be. When an individual wants to sell a gun and they find a willing buyer, they should both go to an FFL holder, the buyer pays for the firearm, and the seller relinquishes possession of the gun to the FFL holder. After the gun has been accepted by the FFL, the seller can leave with their money; is that easy.
Now, if the buyer fails to pass the background check, it would be just like if you had purchased the gun from an out-of-state individual; either the person who sold it could agree to take the gun back (in which case, they need to pass their own background check). If the "seller" says "no, you bought it; it is now YOUR gun", then the buyer can still get their money back by having the FFL sell the gun for him/her (by consigning the gun). Of course, there will be a charge for this service (in our case the consignment fee is 15%). Also, for those of you who will continue to obey our laws (regardless of how asinine some of them may seem to be), we will offer person-to-person transactions and we will do so at the same price which we charge to receive a firearm from out of state ($20 for the transfer + $10 for the CBI check).
Here's what I intend to do- and if I can't sell a firearm because of it, well fine- but to avoid having to beat my head against a wall, I'll hold onto what is technically still my property until the BGC comes back, then take the buyer's money, and let the FFL do the paperwork and hand the gun to the buyer. If the BGC fails, I am still holding on to my property and just go find another buyer, no need for some BS BGC on me when I'm not the one purchasing anything. Or is that the next step down the path, to buy something you need a BGC, and we'll just add that the seller needs one too, just to do our part in maybe, possibly, potentially, remotely attempting to save one child. [Bang]
OneGuy67
05-01-2013, 11:51
My question is, why MUST the gun be transfered to the FFL before the back ground check is submited? In fact, why must the FFL be involved at all? You can run a background check on anyone, at anytime, if you have the correct info. Is the background check you run for renting an apartment different than the one you run for purchasing a gun? If so, why couldn't the public simply call the CBI directly like the FFL can?
We are an open records state, which allows you to run a criminal history (for $6.85 on the CBI website) on a person for COLORADO records only. Most of your apartment background checks are Colorado CBI records only. If you have criminal history in another state, it will not show when you run a CBI records check.
Now, Instacheck runs through the NCIC database, which will show any criminal history in any other state as well as any federal criminal history.
There is your difference and the reason why it must go through a FFL. You cannot contact the Instacheck yourself for a background.
Goodburbon
05-01-2013, 12:05
Here's what I intend to do- and if I can't sell a firearm because of it, well fine- but to avoid having to beat my head against a wall, I'll hold onto what is technically still my property until the BGC comes back, then take the buyer's money, and let the FFL do the paperwork and hand the gun to the buyer. If the BGC fails, I am still holding on to my property and just go find another buyer, no need for some BS BGC on me when I'm not the one purchasing anything. Or is that the next step down the path, to buy something you need a BGC, and we'll just add that the seller needs one too, just to do our part in maybe, possibly, potentially, remotely attempting to save one child. [Bang]
I left some guns on consignment once, imagine my surprise when I had to go through a background check when I decided to pick them up...
spqrzilla
05-01-2013, 14:10
We are an open records state, which allows you to run a criminal history (for $6.85 on the CBI website) on a person for COLORADO records only. Most of your apartment background checks are Colorado CBI records only. If you have criminal history in another state, it will not show when you run a CBI records check.
Now, Instacheck runs through the NCIC database, which will show any criminal history in any other state as well as any federal criminal history.
There is your difference and the reason why it must go through a FFL. You cannot contact the Instacheck yourself for a background.
Only because CBI has not provided an interface for non FFL's to gain access to their firearms' background check process.
OneGuy67
05-01-2013, 17:32
Only because CBI has not provided an interface for non FFL's to gain access to their firearms' background check process.
Not necessarily. The records accessed from other states may not be public record by their laws.
spqrzilla
05-01-2013, 17:41
Not necessarily. The records accessed from other states may not be public record by their laws.
There is no reason why there could not be an interface / contact phone that allowed non FFL's to submit a check request to the CBI operators who process FFL checks. Then there would be no issue with "public record" as the result would be a allow/deny response just like FFL's get.
OneGuy67
05-01-2013, 17:47
There is no reason why there could not be an interface / contact phone that allowed non FFL's to submit a check request to the CBI operators who process FFL checks. Then there would be no issue with "public record" as the result would be a allow/deny response just like FFL's get.
Very true. I see what you are saying now. I don't have an answer to that.
BlasterBob
05-01-2013, 18:16
Here's what I intend to do- and if I can't sell a firearm because of it, well fine- but to avoid having to beat my head against a wall, I'll hold onto what is technically still my property until the BGC comes back, then take the buyer's money, and let the FFL do the paperwork and hand the gun to the buyer. If the BGC fails, I am still holding on to my property and just go find another buyer, no need for some BS BGC on me when I'm not the one purchasing anything. Or is that the next step down the path, to buy something you need a BGC, and we'll just add that the seller needs one too, just to do our part in maybe, possibly, potentially, remotely attempting to save one child. [Bang]
Once you hand the firearm over to the FFL to get the BGC process started, I'll bet that you will NOT be allowed to get the firearm back unless the buyer fails the BGC and you then have to go through the 4473 and a BGC on yourself to get your own firearm back. I still contend that the FFL is going to hang on to the firearm until he/she gets the OK from CBI that the potential buyer is OK to go and this may be a matter of minutes or could be days. As I had indicated in my earlier post, I seriously doubt if any FFL dealer is going to hand the firearm back to the seller while waiting for DAYS to get the approval they are waiting for. This would be an open record in their bound book and believe the BATF would kinda frown on this action. I sure don't like the process but I really believe this is the way it is going to have to be processed. Thanks to the current Legislators that our fellow citizens put in office.
BlasterBob
05-01-2013, 18:20
I left some guns on consignment once, imagine my surprise when I had to go through a background check when I decided to pick them up...
I left some guns on consignment once, BEFORE THE BACKGROUND CRAP WENT INTO EFFECT, and imagine my surprise/shock when I retrieved them and they were in pretty "beat up" condition.[Mad]
Thanks for the responses everyone. I got my answer, which is "because that is the way the law is written."
I don't know about you guys, but I'm starting to feel like this might be a bullshit law. What if you had to reregister your vehicle each time a buyer backed out on you?
Solution: we all go get class 1 FFL's. [Bang]
Bitter Clinger
05-02-2013, 09:24
^^^^ these are the reasons I think this POS law will be overturned or amended when challenged in court.
Great-Kazoo
05-02-2013, 09:35
Solution: we all go get class 1 FFL's. [Bang]
Already filling out paperwork. plus i'm including a few more items just for the upgrades;)
^^^^ these are the reasons I think this POS law will be overturned or amended when challenged in court.
Overturned and/or nullified... that's the only reasonable fate for this BS law.
BlasterBob
05-02-2013, 09:51
YES, Class 1 FFL licenses are real handy but keep in mind all the bull shit requirements necessary to have one. And FFL dealers are subject to BB and inventory inspections when the BATF boys/girls want to come down and visit with you. Also, I believe there must be so many sales in a certain amount of time so the Feds feel that you can justify keeping one. I could very well be wrong at that point but that's how it was a one time. Years ago, the 01's were easy to get and maintain and most often used only to make sales to relatives, friends and associates... Also, remember sales tax to be collected and turned in, lot of paper work, zoning requirements and business licenses, etc., etc., etc. The Class 01 FFL license can be extremely helpful in avoiding the goofy BG checks and possibly getting stuff at wholesale but is one really worth the potential BS to have go through get and maintain one?? I turned in mine years ago and have never been sorry for the lack of it.[blaster]
Thanks foxtrot for clarifying, it has to be logged, yes, and hence inspected by the FFL holder to know it's a real gun. It does not have to be surrendered to them. This would not make any sense.
BlasterBob
05-03-2013, 07:27
Thanks foxtrot for clarifying, it has to be logged, yes, and hence inspected by the FFL holder to know it's a real gun. It does not have to be surrendered to them. This would not make any sense.
OK, the firearm gets logged in and then in the event CBI clearance takes more than a day or so, do you really believe that the FFL Dealer is going to be agreeable to hand the firearm back to the seller while waiting on the CBI to respond? This will leave an open record in his/her BB for those days without the firearm being physically present. I'll bet the firearm HAS to actually be at the dealers location until the CBI clearance is received and the 4473 completed. I am surprised that none of the FFL's on this site are jumping on this or maybe they just don't care to furnish their opinion since this matter has been handled in numerous other threads. [beatdeadhorse]
Circuits
05-03-2013, 09:04
I am surprised that none of the FFL's on this site are jumping on this or maybe they just don't care to furnish their opinion since this matter has been handled in numerous other threads.
We don't know for sure, either - it's a fucked up law. I don't know if CBI will send me official guidelines before 7/1 or not.
BlasterBob
05-03-2013, 10:26
We don't know for sure, either - it's a fucked up law. I don't know if CBI will send me official guidelines before 7/1 or not.
You are probably right. Lacking the official guidelines, you might do a BGC doing it exactly what YOU think is100% proper - then they might try to nail your ass for not doing what their yet unpublished guidelines dictate. The bastards.
What can you expect from the Democraps.
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