May not be registration but.....

[BlasterBob]

It now appears that the Feds may possibly have a method of being able to check up on SOME of us much easier now with the new CO HB13-1229 Background Check law going into effect 7-1-13. I am no scholar but I did closely look over the new "law" and could NOT find any indication of how long the CBI will maintain their BGC records once the new law goes into effect. Seems like someone had said they must destroy/delete these records after 30 days but I see nothing to that effect.
Now, the CBI could possibly be told by the Feds that they have to pass some of those background check records on to BATF or Homeland Security prior to dumping/deleting them. With our current CO Administration, do you think they'd balk at that request if it is made by Homeland Security and that this action is considered a requirement to keep tabs on "potential" domestic terrorists? When the FFL dealer helps with the BGC, he is not required to furnish the description of the firearm, only state basics like if it is for a long gun or hand gun being transferred and who it's being transferred to. The Feds can tell the CBI that if any one individual has more than a couple/few BGC's made in a certain amount of time, that person should be flagged and reported to Feds. Then the Feds/BATF can visit the FFL dealer who made the BGC and look at all of the 4473s covering that particular buyer who had multiple BGCs in that certain prescribed amount of time. They would then have access to the complete description of the firearms along with the serial numbers AND buyers name/address. Feds could say this method would only be utilized to check on possible/potential illegal "gun running/gun trafficking".
Don't think that this is just another tin foil hat type thought since the Feds are probably very capable of accomplishing this since they were somehow able to circumvent the current laws which makes it illegal to furnish a bunch of weapons to the Cartel just South of our southern Border. Feds can probably do a lot of very questionable stuff and just call it a necessary Homeland Security issue in their effort to eliminate chances of domestic terrorism..
Now, who will be the first one here to say that "Big Brother" can't do the above because it's against the law?

[CroiDhubh]

They are supposed to delete them after 24hrs of them being printed. Now, is that true? No. Fuck CBI, they are assholes.

[10mm-man]

They are supposed to delete them after 24hrs of them being printed. Now, is that true? No. Fuck CBI, they are assholes.

Ok, so how do you know it's not true? Source?

[TFOGGER]

Nothing electronically transmitted is either secure nor ever actually deleted. Jus' sayin'. Keep in mind that many(if not most) CBI BGCs are carried out over the internet.

[Great-Kazoo]

Ok, so how do you know it's not true? Source?

He works at a gun store.

[10mm-man]

He works at a gun store.

OK, but that doesn't prove that CBI doesn't delete them on their end after 24 hours. I've tried looking 24hours later to see if the CBI was still there for me to print or if it was deleted and it was deleted. What he was insinuating was that CBI doesn't delete them. I would like to know how he knows they don't, and working at a gun store doesn't prove anything.

[Ronin13]

He works at a gun store.
I thought he said he was a cop? :confused:

[Sharpienads]

He works at a gun store.


I thought he said he was a cop? :confused:

It's a gun store for cops.

[CroiDhubh]

Ok, so how do you know it's not true? Source?
Oops, I should have clarified that...I SHOULD HAVE said the following:


Is this true? Maybe, maybe not. Fuck CBI, they are assholes




I thought he said he was a cop? http://www.ar-15.co/images/smilies/confused.png

Former cop. Now EMT and work in a gun store.

[Ronin13]

Former cop. Now EMT and work in a gun store.
Ahhh, now it's all clear! Okay... Still, I think this whole round of legislation passed this year is unconstitutional bullshit.

[Great-Kazoo]

OK, but that doesn't prove that CBI doesn't delete them on their end after 24 hours. I've tried looking 24hours later to see if the CBI was still there for me to print or if it was deleted and it was deleted. What he was insinuating was that CBI doesn't delete them. I would like to know how he knows they don't, and working at a gun store doesn't prove anything.

I was using sarcasm to go with his Gun Store Employee knowledge. By law they delete, The "Does CBI really delete" part is tin foil paranoia.

[BlasterBob]

By law they delete, The "Does CBI really delete" part is tin foil paranoia.

Probably correct that these particular records are deleted however don't you think the applicable law could be adjusted/changed to accommodate the Homeland Security request/order?
I believe the HSA has a lot of options to get what they want if possible terrorism could somehow be involved.

[spqrzilla]

Federal law says NICS has to delete records, that does not apply to CBI. I've not looked at the current background checks legislation that applied before 1229 was adopted to see if it prohibited CBI from keeping records.

[10mm-man]

I was using sarcasm to go with his Gun Store Employee knowledge. By law they delete, The "Does CBI really delete" part is tin foil paranoia. [Beer]

[Jumpstart]

Make no doubt about it, it's a registry.

[strm_trpr]

CBI is to inept to keep those records long time, much less do anything with them. Most of them could not find their assholes with a mirror and a stick.

[cofi]

CBI is to inept to keep those records long time, much less do anything with them. Most of them could not find their assholes with a mirror and a stick.

once something goes out on the internet its there forever.....maybe cbi is not holding onto the records but you best believe someone is

[BlasterBob]

once something goes out on the internet its there forever.....maybe cbi is not holding onto the records but you best believe someone is

And that "someone" may just be "big brother" (the Feds). Not impossible!

[Great-Kazoo]

And that "someone" may just be "big brother" (the Feds). Not impossible!

They couldn't track 2 (wanna be jihadist) let alone the 4-5+ million new gun purchases since 01/13.

Here's my 2 euros.. If you're concerned about "Tracking" you should have never obtained a Hunter safety card, CCW, or NFA item. I've heard from many folks "they don't want the .gov know they own guns" Keeping in mind they have inquired about a CCW class because "they" just purchased a new gun from X gun store[facepalm]

[BlasterBob]

Jim, Big Bro could just check the American Rifleman subscription list and at least get an idea of who may "POSSIBLY" possess a firearm. I was not really talking about ALL purchases in ALL States which could amount to the millions that you indicated. Only meant the transfers/purchases in our great State of Colorado due to the upcoming questionable BGC law which will now also cover individual transfers. We certainly won't be talking millions of transfers per month in this State alone. What I had mentioned in my first post in this thread could still be somewhat possible if the Feds really wanted to pursue it. I am not really so super concerned about tracking of newly transferred firearms for ME as I don't anticipate getting any more (unless it's a hell of a bargain). [blaster]

[Great-Kazoo]

Jim, Big Bro could just check the American Rifleman subscription list and at least get an idea of who may "POSSIBLY" possess a firearm. I was not really talking about ALL purchases in ALL States which could amount to the millions that you indicated. Only meant the transfers/purchases in our great State of Colorado due to the upcoming questionable BGC law which will now also cover individual transfers. We certainly won't be talking millions of transfers per month in this State alone. What I had mentioned in my first post in this thread could still be somewhat possible if the Feds really wanted to pursue it. I am not really so super concerned about tracking of newly transferred firearms for ME as I don't anticipate getting any more (unless it's a hell of a bargain). [blaster]

I stopped buying guns. now i want to start making them;)

[asmo]

I stopped buying guns. now i want to start making them;)

http://www.forbes.com/sites/andygreenberg/2013/05/03/this-is-the-worlds-first-entirely-3d-printed-gun-photos/

[BlasterBob]

Would appear that if the "gang bangers" can't easily get their guns, we might start seeing the reappearance of the old fashion "Zip Guns". Sure hope not!!

[BushMasterBoy]

The National Security Agency is so paranoid of "latent fingerprints" on hard drives they no longer use, that that they cut them into little pieces and then cook them to 2000 degrees Fahrenheit. The only reason they cut them up, is to make sure the internal platters of the hard drives magnetic domains are completely and randomly rearranged. I don't know how they handle the solid state hard drives...think CBI is that careful with your data? lol

[hatidua]

maybe cbi is not holding onto the records but you best believe someone is

I've never had any naive illusions to the contrary.

[asmo]

Just because CBI deletes the data it doesn't mean they haven't transferred it to someone else (FBI) first.

[Great-Kazoo]

Would appear that if the "gang bangers" can't easily get their guns, we might start seeing the reappearance of the old fashion "Zip Guns". Sure hope not!!

Not happening as there are no longer "Car Antennas" anymore. Everything is now wire in windshield or solid external units.

[nynco]

I would like to know how they caught the straw purchaser who bought the gun that killed the warden. Because to my knowledge, the only way to trace that would be with a CBI database because the guy who shot the warden was dead.

[Bailey Guns]

Junkyards are full of car antennas.

[BlasterBob]

Just because CBI deletes the data it doesn't mean they haven't transferred it to someone else (FBI) first.

I REST MY CASE!!!

[Great-Kazoo]

I would like to know how they caught the straw purchaser who bought the gun that killed the warden. Because to my knowledge, the only way to trace that would be with a CBI database because the guy who shot the warden was dead.

MFG to vendor - FFL / 4473. The CBI data base has nothing to do with any SERIAL NUMBERS OR MFG.

Once again when called in Name, DOB, Soc (if provided) DL #, address on DL matches info on 4473 Ethnicity and hispanic, or other than hispanic.

LONG GUN, HAND GUN OTHER. Nothing at all for make, model serial #

[BlasterBob]

Nothing at all for make, model serial #

You are absolutely right Jim, CBI gets nothing on the make, model and serial #'s - YET.

[nynco]

MFG to vendor - FFL / 4473. The CBI data base has nothing to do with any SERIAL NUMBERS OR MFG.

Once again when called in Name, DOB, Soc (if provided) DL #, address on DL matches info on 4473 Ethnicity and hispanic, or other than hispanic.

LONG GUN, HAND GUN OTHER. Nothing at all for make, model serial #

Isn't maintaining a 4473 the same thing as maintaining a database?

[strm_trpr]

Not happening as there are no longer "Car Antennas" anymore. Everything is now wire in windshield or solid external units.

brake line is still around...

[mtnhack]

I would like to know how they caught the straw purchaser who bought the gun that killed the warden. Because to my knowledge, the only way to trace that would be with a CBI database because the guy who shot the warden was dead.I assumed they went through the manufacturer to the distributor and dealer via the serial number. They call the dealer and ask about the weapon and get approximate date of sell, fish through the 4473 forms and find her name. She was stupid to admit that she bought it for the criminal, as she should have said he stole it without her knowing it was missing.

[Bailey Guns]

Isn't maintaining a 4473 the same thing as maintaining a database?

Only loosely the same. 4473s are scattered about the entire country in the possession of thousands of FFL holders. So, it's a very disorganized database. Also, any 4473 that's over 20 years old can be destroyed by the FFL.

[CroiDhubh]

Now, remember, when you do a Brady Check with the CBI, there is no information on the brand, the model, the caliber, nor the serial number so it's not really registration. The 4473 you fill out isn't sent to the ATF, it's kept on file for 20 years with the FFL you got it from. Now, should the FFL go out of business, all records must be turned over to the ATF immediately. The only thing sent to the CBI is your name, your social security number if the FFL enters it, your driver license number, your address and if you got a long gun, a handgun, or "other". That's it.

It's not registration, but it is a violation of the 4th and 5th Amendments if you argue it right.


I was using sarcasm to go with his Gun Store Employee knowledge. By law they delete, The "Does CBI really delete" part is tin foil paranoia.

Yeah, I misspoke with how I worded it the first time. I corrected it in a reply.

[Bailey Guns]

Now, remember, when you do a Brady Check with the CBI, there is no information on the brand, the model, the caliber, nor the serial number so it's not really registration. The 4473 you fill out isn't sent to the ATF, it's kept on file for 20 years with the FFL you got it from. Now, should the FFL go out of business, all records must be turned over to the ATF immediately. The only thing sent to the CBI is your name, your social security number if the FFL enters it, your driver license number, your address and if you got a long gun, a handgun, or "other". That's it.

That's not "it". It's been mentioned several times and still isn't correct:


Name
DOB
Gender
Race
SSAN (optional)
Address
DL #
State of Residence
Citizenship
Generic description of the item (handgun, long gun, both, etc...)

Now. I think that's all that's provided to CBI.

[asmo]

This has been hashed over many times in many other threads. I don't want to repeat myself. But I will say this: The NTC exists for a reason.

[CroiDhubh]

That's not "it". It's been mentioned several times and still isn't correct:


Name
DOB
Gender
Race
SSAN (optional)
Address
DL #
State of Residence
Citizenship

Now. I think that's all that's provided to CBI.

Oh my, yes, how could I forget about all the little pointless extra things on there which has nothing to do with registration...

[Bailey Guns]

Well, if you're going to provide the info, at least provide all the info. Because "that's it" also apparently didn't include some other pointless info like DOB, gender, race, citizenship, etc... Most of which would be very important to registration.

[asmo]

MFG to vendor - FFL / 4473. The CBI data base has nothing to do with any SERIAL NUMBERS OR MFG.

Once again when called in Name, DOB, Soc (if provided) DL #, address on DL matches info on 4473 Ethnicity and hispanic, or other than hispanic.

LONG GUN, HAND GUN OTHER. Nothing at all for make, model serial #

Just keep in mind that the NTC gets ~1.2 million new 4473s a month... all to be cataloged, indexed and scanned.

[Bailey Guns]

Just keep in mind that the NTC gets ~1.2 million new 4473s a month... all to be cataloged, indexed and scanned.

I sent my records to ATF in Sep 2008. I got a call in early 2012 to do a trace on a gun I sold in 2005. As much as I dislike the idea of the government building a database from out-of-business records, my confidence they can really do it is low.

[asmo]

I sent my records to ATF in Sep 2008. I got a call in early 2012 to do a trace on a gun I sold in 2005. As much as I dislike the idea of the government building a database from out-of-business records, my confidence they can really do it is low.

We (you and I) have been through this before. What they 'can' do is only limited by budget and inclination. The technology exists, is totally viable, and is much much cheaper than most people suspect.

For anyone interested: http://www.ar-15.co/threads/85651-Couple-of-s-About-Registration-of-Firearms and http://www.ar-15.co/threads/82913-Background-checks-and-serial-numbers

[Bailey Guns]

I agree. It's not the technology or even the cost I find suspect. It's the ability of the feds to put it to proper use (at least up til now). On the other hand, I guess that's a good thing.

[Aloha_Shooter]

Why is it so many of you talk about LEOs and govvies as if they were all Barney Fife or Buford T. Justice except when you think they're magically all Agent Smith when it comes to piecing together information in disparate patchy computer records? I am FAR more worried about highly paid competent data miners at Google than I am the fed clerks who would get fired for incompetence if they "worked" at McDonald's or Wendy's. There are a lot more effective ways to mess with your life than tracking you down through 4473s. Just look at what Zillow has on your house or Spokeo has on you.

[asmo]

Why is it so many of you talk about LEOs and govvies as if they were all Barney Fife or Buford T. Justice except when you think they're magically all Agent Smith when it comes to piecing together information in disparate patchy computer records? I am FAR more worried about highly paid competent data miners at Google than I am the fed clerks who would get fired for incompetence if they "worked" at McDonald's or Wendy's. There are a lot more effective ways to mess with your life than tracking you down through 4473s. Just look at what Zillow has on your house or Spokeo has on you.

Because defense contractors don't generally do beat work -- instead they get paid to build giant information processing systems that mine and exploit data. No federal worker actually does a damn thing when it comes to information technology (other than go to meetings, eat donuts, and get in people's way with their petty turf wars). Thats why GD, Raytheon, NG, BAE, LM, etc. etc. are all wildly successful companies.

More to the point - more than one major defense contractor has built hugely automated and wildly successful systems to scan free text, parse it, and turn it into mine-able info ---- and when they do, they usually look for other places to sell the technology to.

[CroiDhubh]

The ATF admitted to us two weeks ago they're three months backlogged on their paperwork. The lady also said they don't have the budget or man power to keep up with everything going on...so how does adding laws make things easier?


Well, if you're going to provide the info, at least provide all the info. Because "that's it" also apparently didn't include some other pointless info like DOB, gender, race, citizenship, etc... Most of which would be very important to registration.

Or not try to be seen as a "completionist ass". But, hey, if you want to seem like the "know it all, right dude", ok.

[Ronin13]

I sent my records to ATF in Sep 2008. I got a call in early 2012 to do a trace on a gun I sold in 2005. As much as I dislike the idea of the government building a database from out-of-business records, my confidence they can really do it is low.
Thank you! I keep saying it, people give the government too much credit. If you were to line up 20 government employees and tell them to tie their shoes, I would estimate 4 of them could do it- figuratively speaking of course.

[Bailey Guns]

Or not try to be seen as a "completionist ass". But, hey, if you want to seem like the "know it all, right dude", ok.

On the other hand, it's not the first time you've provided completely false/wrong information. Maybe that makes us even.

[baglock1]

Sorry, couldn't let this one go...


It's a gun store for cops.

The evidence locker? HA!

[BlasterBob]

I sent my records to ATF in Sep 2008. I got a call in early 2012 to do a trace on a gun I sold in 2005. As much as I dislike the idea of the government building a database from out-of-business records, my confidence they can really do it is low.

If your records were "sent in" in 2008, how would you be expected to help with a trace going on almost four years later? Were those records the 4473's and/or the BB?
When I turned in my records when discontinued my 01 FFL in 1995, I was told personally by the BATF, that they would be computerized ASAP.

[mtnhack]

If your records were "sent in" in 2008, how would you be expected to help with a trace going on almost four years later? Were those records the 4473's and/or the BB? When I turned in my records when discontinued my 01 FFL in 1995, I was told personally by the BATF, that they would be computerized ASAP. So what happens if they accidentally get a little bit 'wet" and are somewhat smeared?

[BlasterBob]

Sorry, couldn't let this one go...



The evidence locker? HA!

I have often wondered how often firearms in a Police evidence locker are borrowed for a private weekend range trip and quietly returned after the range trip. Depending on the type firearm, could be very tempting.

[Bailey Guns]

If your records were "sent in" in 2008, how would you be expected to help with a trace going on almost four years later? Were those records the 4473's and/or the BB?
When I turned in my records when discontinued my 01 FFL in 1995, I was told personally by the BATF, that they would be computerized ASAP.

That's the point, isn't it. They had my records for four years and didn't know it.

[Bailey Guns]

I have often wondered how often firearms in a Police evidence locker are borrowed for a private weekend range trip and quietly returned after the range trip. Depending on the type firearm, could be very tempting.

In almost 15 years as a cop I was never allowed into the evidence vault at either agency where I worked.

[BlasterBob]

That's the point, isn't it. They had my records for four years and didn't know it.

Did you ever receive any type of acknowledgment that the records were actually received by the BATF? Probably NOT. I believe I sent my package with a "return receipt requested" but don't remember if the postcard was ever returned to me.

[CroiDhubh]

On the other hand, it's not the first time you've provided completely false/wrong information. Maybe that makes us even.

Uh, no, but feel free to keep acting being the obvious forum ass.

[kidicarus13]

Information about firearm traces... http://www.npr.org/2013/05/20/185530763/the-low-tech-way-guns-get-traced

[68Charger]

I wonder if they give tours at the national tracing center... [Coffee]

Just because the technology exists, doesn't mean that dept has funding to use it... Sometimes that is how govt gets "regulated", by cutting their funding

[Bailey Guns]

Forms 4473 and bound books can be destroyed or discarded after 20 years. The ATF "strongly encourages" dealers to provide those records to the ATF.


Section 12.7 Record retention period.

The regulations provided under the NFA, specifically 27 CFR 479.131, provide that the retention periods for required records shall be in conformity with the
requirements specified under Part 478. As provided by Part 478:

(1) Records of firearms transactions maintained by licensed importers and licensed manufacturers must maintain permanent records of the importation, manufacture, or other acquisition of
firearms.197

(2) Licensed importer’s and manufacturer’s records of sales or other disposition of firearms over
the age of 20 years may be discarded.198

(3) The A & D Records prepared by licensed dealers and licensed collectors over 20 years of age
may be discarded.

(4) All FFLs shall retain each Form 4473 and 4473(LV) for a period not less than 20 years from
the date of sale or disposition of the firearms. Forms 4473 obtained by FFLs where the NICS
check was initiated, but the sale, delivery, or transfer of the firearm was not completed must be
retained for a period of not less than 5 years.







ATF may lawfully collect firearms transaction records from active dealers where those records are more than 20 years old. ATF uses these records to complete firearms trace requests for law enforcement agencies in furtherance of criminal investigations. If these records are discarded, information contained in those records will be lost forever and a vital investigative tool will be unavailable for use in law enforcement investigations. The ATF National Tracing Center (NTC) has been prevented in the past from completing urgent traces related to violent crimes, to include homicide, where licensees had destroyed records over 20 years old.

Therefore, ATF strongly encourages licensees to send to ATF Out of Business Records Center those records greater than 20 years old that they may otherwise destroy. Please enclose a copy of the “Active” Federal firearms license and appropriately indicate that the records are over 20 years old.

[O2HeN2]

They are supposed to delete them after 24hrs of them being printed. Now, is that true? No. Fuck CBI, they are assholes.
I'm sure they delete them within 24 hours... Right after the daily backups run...

(You know, the backups that the IRS doesn't run on their email system...)

O2

[Bailey Guns]

- destruction is definitely the preferred outcome.

Yep.

[ben4372]

As said earlier once on the ultraweb always there. Even ISPs have to keep your history alot longer that you'd be comtfortable with. You'd really need to find someone with a real reason to find something, or anything about you. My guess is they only trace guns in high profile cases, even then how good are most gubment workers. It'll be another thing when they contract this out to a private company with a financial incentive.

[asmo]

There is too much work to digitize the A&D even on a fast schedule, and the 4473? Shit, you'd have to read 40 different languages of doctor handwriting to begin with.

The Post Office, IRS, and every major banking institution already do this every day. But there is a reason why the ATF loves eForms/Electronic 4473s.


They would have to build another Utah NSA center just to hold the scans.

Not quite.. Not quite at all.

At 100kb per scanned 4473 (I just scanned one and it was under that - but lets use 100kb for easy numbers), you could store 500 MILLION 4473's w/ 50TB in a drive array. I have well beyond that sitting in a way less than single rack at my office.

Think about it this way, a 4 TB hard drive costs $150.. You only need 13 of them for 50 TB. Total cost = $2k for drives. You can build this at home. If you want to build it for full on redundancy you are still under $15k. If you want to build it at full scale enterprise redundancy you are well under $150k.

Its *really* not that hard. I promise.

[us1911]

Nothing electronically transmitted is either secure nor ever actually deleted. Jus' sayin'. Keep in mind that many(if not most) CBI BGCs are carried out over the internet.

except for Lois Lerner's emails

[TFOGGER]

except for Lois Lerner's emails

someone just recovered thousands of them...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/federal-eye/wp/2014/11/21/irs-inspector-general-finds-up-to-30000-of-lois-lerners-e-mails/


Many of Lois Lerner’s missing e-mails may no longer be missing.The Treasury Inspector General for Tax Administration told several congressional committees on Friday that it has recovered as many as 30,000 of the ex-Internal Revenue Service official’s messages from disaster recovery tapes, according to congressional aides who participated in a briefing on the matter.
IRS Commissioner John Koskinen testified in June that the e-mails were lost after Lerner’s hard drive crashed in 2011. He said the agency tried unsuccessfully to retrieve the records with help from agency IT and forensic experts.
Koskinen acknowledged the existence of disaster recovery tapes but said the IRS didn’t try to retrieve Lerner’s e-mails from them because they only contained six months worth of data and because the process would have been extremely difficult, partly due to the amount of information on the tapes.

[kidicarus13]

Just another example of tracing a firearm.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/person-custody-washington-mall-shooting-killed-5-n653931

Cammock said Saturday night that authorities were tracing the ownership of the rifle used in the shooting, which was recovered at the scene.

[Great-Kazoo]

Just another example of tracing a firearm.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/person-custody-washington-mall-shooting-killed-5-n653931

Cammock said Saturday night that authorities were tracing the ownership of the rifle used in the shooting, which was recovered at the scene.

When used in a high profile crime. IMO the intent of such traces are to show the gun was purchased through that internet loophole.

[bryjcom]

The guy wasn't supposed to be in possession of a gun. DV arrests along with simple assault last year if I recall correctly.. Shocking I know!!! How on earth did he get a gun!

[JohnnyEgo]

I haven't followed up on what this jackass was convicted or charged with. I do know a little bit about what triggers Lautenberg, though.

DV convictions get you thrown out courtesy of the Lautenberg amendment (18 U.S.C. § 922(g)(9)). The charges themselves do not, but could trigger Lautenberg depending on what else you were convicted of. The charging document can be used if you plea or are convicted of a lesser crime, such as simple assault or fighting, to show that it was DV related and therefore makes you ineligible to possess a firearm. I have a friend who plead guilty to a 2nd degree misdemeanor fighting charge in exchange for dropping the DV battery charges. He was rejected on an FDLE background check when attempting to buy a new handgun. The reason given was that the fighting conviction had an 'element' of domestic violence as established by the charging document.

First moral of the story: No matter who your wife sleeps around with, do not shove her.
Second moral of the story: Be very careful what you plead to.

[Zundfolge]

At this point, even without gun registration I still guarantee you that there is a Fed.Gov agency somewhere that can determine whether you are a gun owner or not with probably 95%+ accuracy.

Membership in NRA, subscription to gun magazines, membership on gun forums, purchase of gun related products with credit cards, hunting licenses, party affiliation, plus tons of other demographic data run through various algorithms and they can tell tons of things about you that would appear like magic.


Not saying we shouldn't fight any form of covert or outright registration, but we should operate as though we all know they know what they know.

[Irving]

You don't need to be a government agency to find that info out. Anyone who goes under a microscope, from any source, will have stuff found out about their day to day life.

[Skip]

At this point, even without gun registration I still guarantee you that there is a Fed.Gov agency somewhere that can determine whether you are a gun owner or not with probably 95%+ accuracy.

Membership in NRA, subscription to gun magazines, membership on gun forums, purchase of gun related products with credit cards, hunting licenses, party affiliation, plus tons of other demographic data run through various algorithms and they can tell tons of things about you that would appear like magic.

Not saying we shouldn't fight any form of covert or outright registration, but we should operate as though we all know they know what they know.

+CCW

And +1 on your last paragraph. The advantage of not having a registry is that every weapon can't be accounted for. This is why many gun banners want a registry and have started to open say gun control is meaningless without one. To them, gun control is not about reducing crime (where accounting for every weapon is impossible) but rather disarming us via penalties for failing to surrender weapons they know are in our possession.

[Bailey Guns]

Maybe it's just me, but I don't care that some .gov agency can figure out if I own a gun(s). Not in the sense that I think gov't intrusion is OK, but in the sense that I think it's great the gov't knows there are tens of millions of gun owners...many of whom are very well trained (thanks to various .gov programs and institutions)...and who aren't fond of the gov't.

[Aloha_Shooter]

You don't need to be a government agency to find that info out. Anyone who goes under a microscope, from any source, will have stuff found out about their day to day life.

You don't even have to be going under a microscope. Data mining firms do this routinely for commercial and political marketing so they know where it's worth spending money on. This is the "magic" that various Gopglers provided to the Obama campaigns and are likely giving Hillary's campaign.