View Full Version : You Want to Get Serious About Crime in America & Mexico?
Legalize drugs. All of them. Tomorrow.
I realize that this forum may not be the most receptive crowd to such an idea given our party lines and ideals but seriously, what's the point? All we've done is create a black market, turned addicts into criminals & given billions of dollars to the Mexican drug cartels. The drug problem has steadily gotten worse because parents over the decades have decided they don't need to teach their kids right from wrong because the gubment will do it and then they want to act shocked when they become addicts. And no, legalizing and then taxing isn't the answer either. Our government can't learn to balance the absurd budget they have no so adding fuel to that fire won't help. On top of that it gives gubment a loophole to 'punish' those who choose to do them anyway. Look at cigarettes and booze. The 'sin' tax will be the next tool of control and attempting to legislate morality.
It's already happening with cigarettes especially where they keep increasing the tax because smokers are dirty and need an excuse to quit, right? Listen, I hate cigarettes with a passion and have my reasons stemming from my childhood but that doesn't mean I feel it's my job to enforce this on others. It's illegal to do it in public places so by and large it doesn't affect me anymore. If someone wants to buy a product from a company that produces it and consume it in the privacy of their own home in the alleged 'freest country in the nation' then who are we to stop them or punish them?
Keep increasing prices through tax though and cigarettes will be the next MJ or Meth. Eventually the price of a pack will be enough that a crime syndicate can produce the on the black market for much less and make a profit and that will be the next thing. Fact it, it's our own actions that are digging our grave and the war on drugs has to be the biggest one. It's a bottomless pit of money that serves only to criminalize those who aren't actual criminals and fund war lords across our southern border. If drugs were legal tomorrow and people could buy/sell them in the open in safer places and get safer product then what would happen to the crime syndicate in this nation and in Mexico? You take the danger out of it and the price plummets. Suddenly, there is no more profit in it or very little to where producing thousands of miles away and sneaking into another country no longer has value.
Face it, whatever we're doing it ain't working. How far down the chute will we allow ourselves to go before we dig in and start to try to climb back out?
CroiDhubh
05-06-2013, 10:52
Some country did this...for a few years accidental deaths ran rampant and the medical system was horribly bogged down. Now, however, usage is extremely rare and drug related crimes are very low.
Also, if you think there already isn't a black market for cigarettes...well...That's naive.
KevDen2005
05-06-2013, 11:01
Some country did this...for a few years accidental deaths ran rampant and the medical system was horribly bogged down. Now, however, usage is extremely rare and drug related crimes are very low.
Also, if you think there already isn't a black market for cigarettes...well...That's naive.
And alcohol
BushMasterBoy
05-06-2013, 11:13
The prisons and all the enforcement would have to find a new line of work. I'd vote to legalize it, hell you can't even get Viagra without a prescription. The government won't change very soon. At least I don't have to pay taxes for inmates busted with a little weed. But I gotta pay taxes so an asshat & family can live in the White House. The system is criminal in my eyes.
Some country did this...for a few years accidental deaths ran rampant and the medical system was horribly bogged down. Now, however, usage is extremely rare and drug related crimes are very low.
Also, if you think there already isn't a black market for cigarettes...well...That's naive.
Netherlands? That's what they did and instead of treating addiction like a crime, they treat it like, well... addiction. Money that would have gone to prosecuting, jailing, and "rehabilitating" you, now goes to treatment- if you desire it, or court mandated if you become a danger to yourself and/or others.
Some country did this...for a few years accidental deaths ran rampant and the medical system was horribly bogged down. Now, however, usage is extremely rare and drug related crimes are very low.
Also, if you think there already isn't a black market for cigarettes...well...That's naive.
Of course this will be the resort as the system needs to be purged but it won't last forever and the end result years down the road will be a society of individuals who make their own decisions and most will make the right decision because it's the right thing to do and not because a law told them so.
I didn't say there wasn't one but it's not the problem that controlled substances are, yet.
Edit: D'oh I typed all that up before I read your second sentence. I'm not sure how I missed it but it's nice to hear that there is actual supporting evidence to my theory. What country was this? Details? I'm not one to compare country to country because I feel there are just too many differences but it would be nice to read about.
Go ahead and tax it, and direct those tax dollars to treating addiction and education. Have the industry (at least partially) pay for itself. It's going to exist either way, instead of continuing to make it a pure spending issue, gather some income from from it.
Netherlands? That's what they did and instead of treating addiction like a crime, they treat it like, well... addiction. Money that would have gone to prosecuting, jailing, and "rehabilitating" you, now goes to treatment- if you desire it, or court mandated if you become a danger to yourself and/or others.
Perfect. I remember hearing about this as it applied to addiction specifically and remember reading nothing but good things about it. It had strong opposition to begin with but the results spoke for themselves after a short period.
As for LE needing to find other work, you heard it from others... accidental death and violent crime spikes so LE will actually get to use their expensive toys for real criminals and then, as the older LEOs retire we just don't replace them for span of a decade or so until the #'s necessary to control ACTUAL crime are reached. The longer we wait to do such a thing the higher this initial spike will be though. We need to do this NOW IMO.
Go ahead and tax it, and direct those tax dollars to treating addiction and education. Have the industry (at least partially) pay for itself. It's going to exist either way, instead of continuing to make it a pure spending issue, gather some income from from it.
I hate this idea that 'taxing it' does anything. Sure, at first it may help to pay for itself but before you know it it's just another way for the .gov to control the masses and pay for shit that we don't want/need. Besides, the money saved from law enforcement, legal system & imprisonment will FAR exceed what treatment will cost.
Right now they are looking at taxing weed in Colorado at 25% "just while necessary," I.e. forever.
Taxing commerce regularly, as all other commerce is taxed is one thing; anything else is unacceptable, and undefendable. Indefenseable?
muddywings
05-06-2013, 12:45
Evolution has brought our species to a level that we have found a way to negate evolution. Legalize it and let evolution continue....
<p>
Jer, you're largely right, my comment was partially sarcastic (not entirely, as I do like the idea of at least trying to address the spending issue somehow), but further to the point is Irving's post regarding 25% tax on pot, IMO that tax rate is going to continue to provide incentive to black market (i.e cigarettes, alchohol)</p>
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Depending on how it's handled though, you'd have the same asshats dependant on .gov that are now, but at least there'd be some revenue to show for it</p>
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Right now they are looking at taxing weed in Colorado at 25% "just while necessary," I.e. forever.
Taxing commerce regularly, as all other commerce is taxed is one thing; anything else is unacceptable, and undefendable. Indefenseable?
Exactly. This is why I was against legalizing MJ the way it was written in this last bill. Setting the precedence of having to pay a 'tax' to our government to enjoy something that should just be allowed is setting an awfully dangerous precedent. How different from a tyrannical monarchy such an action?
*various simple to understand and blatantly obvious graphics re: war on drugs*
We need to hang out more. lol
Fine by me. I'll continue to refrain and avoid those who partake.
Fine by me. I'll continue to refrain and avoid those who partake.
I have zero desire to partake - or be around those that do. But the war on drugs is an absolute failure on every level - except one, it has allowed the gubment to wrestle control of our rights away from us.
I have zero desire to partake - or be around those that do. But the war on drugs is an absolute failure on every level - except one, it has allowed the gubment to wrestle control of our rights away from us.
You and I are of like mind. Libertarian principles.
Perfect. I remember hearing about this as it applied to addiction specifically and remember reading nothing but good things about it. It had strong opposition to begin with but the results spoke for themselves after a short period.
As for LE needing to find other work, you heard it from others... accidental death and violent crime spikes so LE will actually get to use their expensive toys for real criminals and then, as the older LEOs retire we just don't replace them for span of a decade or so until the #'s necessary to control ACTUAL crime are reached. The longer we wait to do such a thing the higher this initial spike will be though. We need to do this NOW IMO.
The Dutch also have among the lowest rates of complaints against LEOs than any nation in the developed world (to include US- can't find the statistics, but saw it in a program about the world's war on drugs). Their cops, instead of out looking for druggies and spending BILLIONS on a losing drug war, actually work at preventing crime and enforcing laws like theft, assault, vandalism, and the like, non-drug related stuff. [Beer]
funkymonkey1111
05-06-2013, 14:34
Jer,
agree 100%.
jerrymrc
05-06-2013, 17:28
I am just about at the point that they call me an old fart. I did not get it then and I still do not get it now.(the war on drugs) there are many things out there that do very bad things to people. Those that do not learn that will become Soylent Green and those that do go on to lead normal and productive lives. I am living proof. Class of 76.
Bert and Thomas will be along shortly to tell you that I am not normal. [LOL]
The Dutch also have among the lowest rates of complaints against LEOs than any nation in the developed world (to include US- can't find the statistics, but saw it in a program about the world's war on drugs). Their cops, instead of out looking for druggies and spending BILLIONS on a losing drug war, actually work at preventing crime and enforcing laws like theft, assault, vandalism, and the like, non-drug related stuff. [Beer]
Is that the same Denmark (Scandinavia) overrun by Muslims raping their women?
johnyfive
05-06-2013, 17:48
Whoa, if we legalize drugs then there goes the low oversight, low cost inmate for our privately run prison system. In order to stay afloat they'll be forced to jail actual dangerous people and only make a fraction of the profit. Sure, it'll be better for law abiding citizens, but think about all the bad people collecting in one place, it's a powder keg, they might hurt one another. I mean, if it'll save just one felon's life, shouldn't we all keep making the sacrifice of living in a society that tolerates violent criminals living among us because it was cheaper to jail a pot smoker?
Wow. I'm actually pleasantly surprised to find so many like-minded individuals on this forum as I figured this mindset would be met with a fair amount of opposition.
I'm curious though, those that feel this way... is this something you've kind of always felt or did you use to think the other way and recently came around to this way of thinking based on recent events?
For the record I don't do elicit drugs nor would I if they were legal. I choose to do some things that aren't legal (mostly traffic stuff) and I also choose not to do some things that are legal. At some point we just have to trust our moral compass and not the government to know right from wrong.
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