9mm Brass Bulge

[DHC]

Would appreciate some input from those of you who load for 9mm on a progressive.

Here is what recently occurred:

Threw some previously fired brass into the case feeder and began running my 'normal' loads. Finished up a batch of about 500 or so and then dropped them into a Wilson cartridge case gauge as a final check. Out of 500, I found maybe 5% that has developed a large enough bulge that they would not 'thunk' into the gauge and some that would not fit at all. I am working from the assumption that if the finished cartridge will not 'chamber' in the Wilson gauge, then it could be problematic later, when it REALLY counts. What I noticed was on the problem cases, most had developed a bulge at the bottom of the case preventing it from fully 'chambering' in the Wilson gauge. The result is I pulled the out-of-tolerance bullets to re-use the bullets and powder, and I am hoping to de-cap the primers intact for re-use as well (shall see how that turns out).

This led me to a close inspection of all the remaining empty cases, but without running them through the sizer, they offer no indication of any problems and I believe the case bulge will not appear until the case is sized. So the problem becomes that it is nearly impossible to determine which of the previously fired cases will develop a bulge that will render the cartridge unusable until after the case is fully loaded.

This is the first time I've encountered the case bulge becoming large enough that is interfered with chambering, though I've read it is not uncommon with 9mm.

Does anyone have any tips/tricks for either identifying problem brass BEFORE starting the loading process? Obviously, any apparent defects are culled out, but how do you detect the possibility/likelihood that a bulge will develop when sized?

Has anyone ever tried a roll-sizer like the CasePro? I've seen a push-thru die for .40 S&W caliber, but due to the taper of the 9mm cases, I do not think anyone offers an effective push-thru die, leaving the only possible option as a roll-sizer to address the bulging problem.

[dwalker460]

The dies is likely not adjusted properly. Make sure that when you are sizing the case the shellholder touches the base of the die.

[DHC]

The dies is likely not adjusted properly. Make sure that when you are sizing the case the shellholder touches the base of the die.

I'll check again. Is it your experience that when properly adjusted the 9mm die manages to eliminate all case bulge?

[cysoto]

Is it your experience that when properly adjusted the 9mm die manages to eliminate all case bulge?
This may depend on the brand of dies that you are using. Some brands of dies have a larger flare in the opening than others. In my case, I had some issues with Dillon dies some years ago which only went away when I switched the Dillon crimp die for a Lee FCD (though be aware that the FCD die is not recommended to be used with bare lead bullets and, in some cases, plated projectiles).

Nonetheless, did you try using your pistol's barrel as a case gauge? Many times case gauges can be somewhat undersized. If they "thunk" in the barrel, you shouldn't have any issues using them in a match.

[DHC]

This may depend on the brand of dies that you are using. Some brands of dies have a larger flare in the opening than others. In my case, I had some issues with Dillon dies some years ago which only went away when I switched the Dillon crimp die for a Lee FCD (though be aware that the FCD die is not recommended to be used with bare lead bullets and, in some cases, plated projectiles).

Nonetheless, did you try using your pistol's barrel as a case gauge? Many times case gauges can be somewhat undersized. If they "thunk" in the barrel, you shouldn't have any issues using them in a match.

Am using a Hornady L-N-L progressive with a Hornady de-capping/sizing die in station 1. Station 5 carries the Lee FCD with Station 4 being the bullet seater. I'm not using bare lead bullets - only jacketed or plated.

No, I didn't use the barrel as a gauge - in part because I am loading for several different 9mm handguns. The cartridge gauge was, I thought, the best indicator of assurance the rounds will function properly in all the handguns.

Interesting point about the FCD . . . Since the bottom part of the case is unsupported when running it up through the FCD, I wonder if that might be the cause of (or contributor to) case bulging?

[gnihcraes]

I check the brass on the wilson before hand. Pain in the butt I know, but it solves all my problems. Singlestage/RCBS dies, max full length size, bulge still exists.

Some particular gun(s) out there have a loose chamber and are bulging. Maybe some particular machine gun? I believe the brass I have trouble with are .mil cases.

[DHC]

I check the brass on the wilson before hand. Pain in the butt I know, but it solves all my problems. Singlestage/RCBS dies, max full length size, bulge still exists.

Some particular gun(s) out there have a loose chamber and are bulging. Maybe some particular machine gun? I believe the brass I have trouble with are .mil cases.

I am surprised your previously fired brass will fit the Wilson gauge before sizing. Most of mine will not.

[cysoto]

Interesting point about the FCD . . . Since the bottom part of the case is unsupported when running it up through the FCD, I wonder if that might be the cause of (or contributor to) case bulging?
Is your FCD "kissing" the shell plate?

[DHC]

Is your FCD "kissing" the shell plate?

I am going to check the adjustments on all dies and report back. I *think* they are correct, but it can't hurt to check again.

[gnihcraes]

I am surprised your previously fired brass will fit the Wilson gauge before sizing. Most of mine will not.

** Clarification, after sizing. Most slide right in and out.

I use an old pencil on the workbench top, holding the case gage over it, then press each brass down in the gage, the pencil allows me to eject the brass quickly. (no tapping or shaking) If the brass doesn't fit easily, I set it aside.

I usually end up with a handful of bad brass, I pitch it in my recycle bucket for the scrapyard.

[Hoser]

I have not loaded a single round in a semi auto or revo where I have not roll-sized/case-pro'ed the brass since the late 90s.

After running it through the case-pro, you dont even have to run it through a FL size die. I just dump the brass in the case feeder and flip a switch. The motor runs at about 1,500 rpm.

And after getting a case-pro, I have not chamber checked or gauged a single round.

[DHC]

I have not loaded a single round in a semi auto or revo where I have not roll-sized/case-pro'ed the brass since the late 90s.

After running it through the case-pro, you dont even have to run it through a FL size die. I just dump the brass in the case feeder and flip a switch. The motor runs at about 1,500 rpm.

And after getting a case-pro, I have not chamber checked or gauged a single round.

Damn! Another $1000 (+/-) to throw at this 'hobby.'

How do you integrate the CasePro into the loading 'routine'? It would seem like the cases should be de-primed PRIOR to roll-sizing in order to tighten-up the primer pockets (as described in the literature), but if the process then consists of:

1. De-prime (universal de-priming die presumably - on the reloading press)
2. Roll size (requires moving the brass cases to the roll-sizing machine)
3. FL size? and prime (now back to the reloading press)
4. etc

This seems to rob some of the expected efficiencies of progressive reloading.

I would probably use the roll-sizer for 9mm and 45 ACP brass, but I see they have options for 357 Magnum and even some rifle cases like .223. Hoser, do you use the roll-sizer for anything other than semi-auto pistol cases?

Have you run the economics compared to replacing fired cases with new cases every x many loads? If so, how many additional loadings is reasonable to expect with roll-sized cases vs 'normal' press sized cases?

[Hoser]

Damn! Another $1000 (+/-) to throw at this 'hobby.'

How do you integrate the CasePro into the loading 'routine'? It would seem like the cases should be de-primed PRIOR to roll-sizing in order to tighten-up the primer pockets (as described in the literature), but if the process then consists of:

1. De-prime (universal de-priming die presumably - on the reloading press)
2. Roll size (requires moving the brass cases to the roll-sizing machine)
3. FL size? and prime (now back to the reloading press)
4. etc

This seems to rob some of the expected efficiencies of progressive reloading.

I would probably use the roll-sizer for 9mm and 45 ACP brass, but I see they have options for 357 Magnum and even some rifle cases like .223. Hoser, do you use the roll-sizer for anything other than semi-auto pistol cases?

Have you run the economics compared to replacing fired cases with new cases every x many loads? If so, how many additional loadings is reasonable to expect with roll-sized cases vs 'normal' press sized cases?

I dont do anything special. Tumble the fired brass clean and roll size it. I have a PW motor hooked up to it so it does not take any time.

Then I load normally.

I have not roll sized anything other than handgun brass. I have dies for 9mm, 38 Super, 38 Special, 40/10mm, 44 Mag, 45 Colt and 45 ACP.

I dont know how many reloads my brass gets before it dies. I normally lose it before the primer pocket dies. I have some old 45 ACP brass where there isnt even a headstamp left its been reloaded so many times.

[buckshotbarlow]

Hoser,
I know u run dillon's, and I had to change my dillon 9mm full length die to a lee full length. That solved the problem. Now, when I run it through the single stage on the coke bottles, i don't have that problem, but on the 1050 and the 550, the lee die was the solution...

[MAP]

If you are having problems sizing your 9mm brass take a look at this Lee die http://www.midwayusa.com/product/386755/lee-u-carbide-small-base-sizing-die-9mm-luger.

Also, I've had 9mm round that wouldn't fit the Wilson case gage but easily fit in my 9mm Glock barrel.

Mike

[SA Friday]

And we have a winner... EGW U resizing die will get rid of the bulge, prevent any set-back, have none of the FCD issues (throw that POS away), and not cost a grand.

I run them for 9mm, 40, and 45 auto and have gotten rid of every reloading problem mentioned above in one shot.

[Hoser]

Without a doubt the EGW die is top notch and is a great solution.

But, I picked up this roll sizer many moons ago for a smoking deal. And it takes care of any chingos on the case rim. And it makes loading mags to max capacity easier.

[DHC]

And we have a winner... EGW U resizing die will get rid of the bulge, prevent any set-back, have none of the FCD issues (throw that POS away), and not cost a grand.

I run them for 9mm, 40, and 45 auto and have gotten rid of every reloading problem mentioned above in one shot.

Thanks to you and MAP and KellyTTE for mention of the U-die (undersize die). I understand that Lee makes the EGW die, so I *think* they are the same. Since this is a relatively cheap 'fix,' I'll try this before anything else.

I wonder about your comment that the Lee FCD is a POS. What problems did you experience?

[SA Friday]

The EGW 'U' die is made by Lee for EGW, and is NOT the same as a lee resizing die. The undersized die is smaller and is chamfered less at the bottom so it will resize lower on the case. This subsequently causes a coke bottle shape after the bullet is seated.

Here. http://www.ar-15.co/threads/16723-Bullet-Set-Back-Why-Some-Guns-Go-Kaboom/page2?highlight=back

The Lee FCD is a solution looking for a problem. It's supposed to resolve feeding issues as a last step that should have been taken care of in other steps. The die squeezes the seated bullet after being pushed through a resizing ring. So, it resizes what should have been resized properly the first time, recrimps what should have been taken care of in the seating die, and in the process crushes the bullet and case. In doing so, shrinks the diameter of the bullet and loosens the tension between the case wall and mouth against the outer wall of the bullet causing more bullet setback issues. The subsequent squeezing of the bullet causes the bullet to not properly seal in the rifling and drastically enhances the chance the bullet will tumble when shot.

Resizing with a U die or as Hoser does, roll sizing, will stop all the problems of improper resizing. Setting the crimp properly on the seating/crimp die stops improper crimp from causing misfeeds. Now you don't need the FCD to 'fix' feeding issues.

[cysoto]

The EGW 'U' die is made by Lee for EGW, and is NOT the same as a lee resizing die. The undersized die is smaller and is chamfered less at the bottom so it will resize lower on the case. This subsequently causes a coke bottle shape after the bullet is seated.

Here. http://www.ar-15.co/threads/16723-Bullet-Set-Back-Why-Some-Guns-Go-Kaboom/page2?highlight=back

The Lee FCD is a solution looking for a problem. It's supposed to resolve feeding issues as a last step that should have been taken care of in other steps. The die squeezes the seated bullet after being pushed through a resizing ring. So, it resizes what should have been resized properly the first time, recrimps what should have been taken care of in the seating die, and in the process crushes the bullet and case. In doing so, shrinks the diameter of the bullet and loosens the tension between the case wall and mouth against the outer wall of the bullet causing more bullet setback issues. The subsequent squeezing of the bullet causes the bullet to not properly seal in the rifling and drastically enhances the chance the bullet will tumble when shot.

Resizing with a U die or as Hoser does, roll sizing, will stop all the problems of improper resizing. Setting the crimp properly on the seating/crimp die stops improper crimp from causing misfeeds. Now you don't need the FCD to 'fix' feeding issues.

You have been spending WAAAAAAYYYYY too much time on Glock Talk... :)

Truth is that the Lee "U" die and the FCD accomplish the same results but they do so on different stages of the loading process. Granted that I agree that the problems you mention are present when loading bare lead or, even some times, plated bullets but, outside of this, the FCD will not "crush" FMJ or JHP bullets. Next you'll be preaching the masses about how loading .40S&W with Titegroup is a recipe for disaster. :P

[cysoto]

When I get home I'll take some pics of the pulls I saved. Maybe the pistol FCD can't crush jacketed bullets, but the rifle version sure can.
I wouldn't know from personal experience (because I have never used an FCD to load rifle ammo), but I believe you. However, when it comes to its use on pistol ammunition, the amount of under-sizing that is accomplished with the Lee "U" die and the FCD are nearly identical.

FWIW, I use use both the "U" & the FCD for my .40S&W. I cannot remember the last time that I had to gauge my ammo.

[SA Friday]

You have been spending WAAAAAAYYYYY too much time on Glock Talk... :)

Truth is that the Lee "U" die and the FCD accomplish the same results but they do so on different stages of the loading process. Granted that I agree that the problems you mention are present when loading bare lead or, even some times, plated bullets but, outside of this, the FCD will not "crush" FMJ or JHP bullets. Next you'll be preaching the masses about how loading .40S&W with Titegroup is a recipe for disaster. :P

With all due respect, if you had a quarter of the hours I have experimenting with these exact two dies, you would know not only do I not even have an account on Glock whatever, but I do speak the truth. Do what you want with your own ammo, but you are doing a dis-service for everyone claiming a Lee FCD does anything but what I have stated. The are garbage. They do NOT do the same thing as a U die. They cover up shitty reloading practices with a false sense of assurance because they make bad ammo fit the gauge. Don't want to believe me? Fine, call Lizard or Hoser or Zombie Steve or Stew or any of the other dozen high end reloaders we both know and they will tell you the exact same thing I am saying. Throw that POS in the trash.

40 and TG isn't so bad, but 40 and Clays mixed with 180s or bigger at book COAL will eventually cost you a gun.