What are conservative and liberal ideals?

[Singlestack]

I had an interesting discussion with my son and his friend yesterday - both juniors at CU - about what were the tenets of conservatism and liberalism. I disagreed with most of his friend's positions - think he had conservative and liberal confused. However, I told him I would ask here and see what a mostly conservative crowd would say - and he would ask his friends who professed to be liberal and see what they say - and we would compare notes. Anyway, here is more or less what I told him. This isn't a republican vs Democrat thing; some republicans act more based on the liberal tenets, for example. Feel free to add anything else you can think of:


CONSERVATIVE TENETS
================
General
- Freedom trumps security
- Government should be kept small and limited to constitutional activities
- Constitution and Bill of Rights are sacrosanct and must be rigidly adhered to by all government. Constitution only changed by established processes
- Courts must interpret law based on Constitution/Bill of Rights
- Words have a traditional and well-understood meaning & should not be redefined for political advantage
- Behavior matters, there is a different between right and wrong and right actions should always be pursued


Fiscal Conservatism
- Debt and deficits matter, and weaken us
- Budgets are important and must be stuck to
- Taxes should be kept low across the board. Business taxes reduced to encourage job creation, entrepreneurialism, and national financial strength
- Reduced regulation to favor private investment and business growth

Foreign Policy
- Intervention in foreign conflict/wars should be based on US national interests
- Unilateralism should be pursued if strong US interests and other countries don't want to participate
- Win wars with overwhelming force and quickly. No occupations or police actions.
- Maintain a strong military and strong borders
- At least a strong suspicion of UN activities, if not complete opposition to involvement with the UN

Social Conservatism
- Pro-life and pro traditional marriage
- Recognition of judeo-christian basis of US foundation
- Support for homeschooling and charter schools, public education funding should be based on education metrics/results



LIBERAL TENETS
===========
General
- The ends justify the means
- Security much more important then freedom
- Change the meaning of words in order to control the conversation
- "Nuance" in conversation is highly valued, and a sign of intelligence
- Political correctness to be taught and enforced wherever possible
- Courts should look to how other countries deal with similar issues, even if different than Constitution/Bill of Rights
- Political power and getting elected govern actions and behavior
- Moral relativism; no absolute "right" and "wrong"
- Government must always facilitate easier living for minorities in order to fix injustice, whether in voting, access to healthcare, or government entitlements

Fiscal Liberalism
- Deficit spending OK
- Government and Fed can control the economy and keep really bad things from happening
- Taxes should generally be increased across the board, and steadily
- Tax and regulation should be increasingly directed at high earners
- More and larger government social programs, especially for minorities
- Transferring wealth from rich to poor should be pursued all the time
- Increased regulation to protect the environment and keep businesses honest
- Government "investment" to help favor industries favored by liberals - green energy, for example

Foreign Policy
- Pro-UN
- Favors nation building and "spreading democracy"
- Favors intervention in police actions, genocides, and internal conflicts of other countries
- Disfavors unilateral military actions by the US
- Strong limits of the size and capability of the US military
- Favors weak borders to facilitate illegal immigration

Social Liberalism
- Female reproductive rights (Taxpayer funded abortion and contraception)
- Pro-Gay marriage/adoption
- Appeal of multiculturalism and affinity with muslim teachings
- Opposed to home schooling and charter schools; more funding power to public education at all levels and teacher unions

[ChunkyMonkey]

Dems anti private gun ownership
GOP pro private gun ownership

/Thread

[clublights]

ALL POLITICIANS HATE AMERICA AND HATE AMERICANS. if they didnt we wouldnt be in the position we are in. they did this, not one side or the other. BOTH.

I disagree with this .....

All Politicians LOVE power and LOVE wielding said power.... the fact we are in America and are Americans is a side note.

[Singlestack]

Guys - this isn't about Democrats and Republicans, as I stated in the OP. It is about what are Conservative and liberal ideals. Please don't assume that I'm trying to ascribe the conservative ideals to republican lawmakers - absolutely not the case.

[Jamnanc]

Remember liberals like cats and conservatives are dog people. Don't forget to throw in that all conservatives eat meat. Liberals also eat me just of the different variety.

[RblDiver]

Remember liberals like cats and conservatives are dog people.
(I'm conservative and like cats >.> )

[Bailey Guns]

(I'm conservative and like cats >.> )

STONE HIM!

[Ronin13]

Singlestack-
First off, let me apologize for everyone else (HBAR- we get it, you're bitter and fall into that trap that there is no partisan difference- of course from a cynical and skewed POV that could be viewed as true, but you fail to realize that there are two different ideas on how to "move forward" with America, one from the right, one from the left). Folks got a little off topic and seemed to have missed the target by an entire lane.
I know what you're asking, and what you wrote initially in the op is spot on.
To add, clarify and emphasize, here is what I can offer:
Conservatism
Running the Gov:
-Smaller gov.
-Less federal powers, more emphasis on state sovereignty
-Less laws and regulation
Social issues:
-Less reliance on government, more reliance on charity and private endeavor
-Pro-life, there are alternatives to aborting your pregnancy
-Welfare reform, only needed for those actually in need- short term

Liberalism
Running the Gov:
-More laws, more regulation
-Government can handle everything and anything
-More federal powers
Social issue:
-Again, the government can handle everything, they can take care of us, they have an obligation to
-Women have the choice to do whatever they want, no regard for differing definitions of what "life" is

That's how I see, but keep in mind, I'm heavily biased and see very little difference between modern liberalism and dreams of socialism. [Coffee]

[SAnd]

I'll oversimplify it a bit.

Conservatives believe that the people is made up of individuals that own the government.

Liberals believe the people belong to the government. There are no individual people.

[Singlestack]

Thanks Ronin - thats what I was looking for! I just received back from my son's (who is very much a capital L Libertarian, as Mike Rosen would describe him) friend some of what his liberal friends consider to be conservative ideals:

- Anti-minority
- Basically racist, and dedicated to defending only what white guys like
- Pro big companies and opposed to small business and the government
- Favor business growth and pollution over the environment (support for Big Oil is evidence)
- Hate poor people and are usually mean to them
- Only care about the US and not the rest of the world
- Try to demean women and even want to keep them from voting (you can't make this stuff up)
- Always try to force Christianity on others and convert them

Here are some of the Liberal ideals they came up with:
- Care about all people (kinder, more caring)
- More money for public education
- Distrust the military and people who have been in the military. Military people want to start wars
- Open minded
- Favor unions as a way to protect companies from exploiting workers. All workers should be unionized
- Conservatives who can't be taught proper thinking should be excluded from leadership roles and the government
- All viewpoints are valid and must be considered (part of open minded thinking)
- Helping minorities and the rest of the world is more important than debt/deficit
- By spending more, we can eliminate worldwide poverty

I was pretty disappointed in these results - more emotional really and not a lot of substance. However, not really surprised. Kids that age tend not to know a lot about this sort of thing, and are more swayed by easy to say emotional arguments - no explanations provided most of the time.

[Ronin13]

- Anti-minority
- Basically racist, and dedicated to defending only what white guys like
You should be disappointed. They've been spoon fed this bullshit for years! Little do these kids know, all this racism in America (from the 1850's to the 1980's) wouldn't have been nearly as bad if it wasn't for [mostly] liberal democrats. 1860's- Lincoln (R- Conservative) made slavery illegal. KKK- Liberal Democratic organization. Opposition to anti-segregation laws- Liberal Democrats. I'm not sure how things got turned around (supposedly) but what they view as conservative racism is actually pushing for individual responsibility. Is it conservatism's fault that a lot of those in poverty are minorities? Is it conservatism's fault that those minorities happen to be held down in a democratically introduced and sustained system that gives them just enough to get by, but have no hope of upward mobility? If poor folks (of ANY color) were to step up to the plate and work on improving their own lives, on their own, without relying so heavily on government assistance, then we might see the end of poverty as we currently know it, in a few generations... Maybe.

[Veritas]

I think this sums it up nicely. Not perfect, but the basic points are covered.

http://www.studentnewsdaily.com/conservative-vs-liberal-beliefs/

[Hound]

I think this sums it up nicely. Not perfect, but the basic points are covered.

http://www.studentnewsdaily.com/conservative-vs-liberal-beliefs/

Or this one http://news-basics.com/2010/liberal-vs-conservative-values/

I don't think either side understands the other even though when discussed at the indiviual level, both find more in common than not. There are really four (maybe six) parties in our country with the vocal minorities speaking for what we call the two parties. Squeaky wheel and all...

Going from crazy right wing to left wing crazy it goes

Tea Party/Republicans/Conservatives/Liberals/Democrats/Progressives

They get progressivly more bat-shit crazy the farther to either side with, what I believe, are most of us in the middle. The best governments have been when there is compromise between all sides but we have killed that in our day and age. A Statesman was somebody that could find a way to talk with their "enemies" to reach consensous. We don't have any statesmen anymore. And before anybody starts throwing those stones all sides are guilty. The Right almost threw us down the hole with 8 years of blind obedience to a party and not the country. The Left is in a process of following suit. The "Liberal" tenets at the beginning of this are insultingly biased but show how little both sides understand each other. We are at our best not when our side wins (we are seeing in the last 12 years what that looks like) but instead when we all listen to each others concerns and find what is "right" with each others positions. America is what should come first, not our parties.

[Aloha_Shooter]

Singlestack, I'd say you got it about right and your son's friends have a typical outcome-based education (i.e., unthinking indoctrinated regressive Socialist) view of the world. They need to forget how they feel and concentrate more on what they can demonstrate or prove -- too many colleges confuse criticism of Western establishments/culture/traditions with critical thinking.

One thing to be careful with here is that "classic liberalism" would be viewed as conservatism today.

[USAFGopherMike]

Liberalism when permitted to run amuck leads to socialism and communism. For the record, I don't like either party nor congress save a few outliers who are trying to do good things. As mentioned, your son's friend is probably a product of liberal teachings by either teachers or parents. The racism garbage is perpetuated mostly by liberals trying to spin things to get what they want, not racists conservatives.

[TFOGGER]

Conservatives believe in self reliance and personal responsibility, Liberals believe in communal reliance and collective responsibility. The flipside is that conservatives sometimes choose to impose their moral sense on others (abortion, homosexuality, etc.) and restrict behaviours that they find distasteful, where liberals often try to do the same on issues they find distasteful (guns, commerce, etc.). It is possible to be a fiscal conservative and a social liberal, or at least social libertarian. I am for dramatically reducing the size and influence of the government at all levels, personal responsibility, and personal liberty. The government has no business in my bedroom, place of business, gun safe, or anywhere else in my life that does not cause tangible harm to another person.

[SA Friday]

You forgot to add that they re both rigidly dogmatic in their respective beliefs and refuse to stray beyond their accepted construed guidelines, so if you don't fit one or the other's mold of perfection, you are screwed...

Basically, they're both filled with assholes that could care less about real agenda.

[whitbaby]

If our youth could ever start to think for themselves the differences would become evident...

Pay little attention to what a politician SAYS...watch what he DOES.

[Aloha_Shooter]

Tea Party/Republicans/Conservatives/Liberals/Democrats/Progressives

Wow, where do you get this "bat-shit crazy" (to use your words) spectrum from?

Are you trying to say social conservatives (pro-church, anti-abortion, yadda yadda yadda) are closer to self-proclaimed liberals like Al Franken or Barack Obama than to "mainstream" Democrats? or that Republicans like Chris Christie are further from Democrats like the late Sen Patrick Moynihan than conservatives like Pat Buchanan? I seriously doubt self-proclaimed conservatives like Sean Hannity would agree with you that they're more centrist than Chris Christie or closer to liberals like Nancy Pelosi than Democrats like Heidi Heitkamp.

In the first place, self-proclaimed "progressives" today are nothing more than liberals (i.e., anti-Western Marxists) trying to escape the classification they polluted 20 years ago. They are as related to Progressives of the Bull Moose Party in about the same way Democrats today are related to Thomas Jefferson's Democratic-Republican Party.

Since the Tea Party drew in fiscal conservatives from both Democratic and Republican camps (admittedly more from the Republican camp but there are precious few fiscal conservatives in the Democrat Party anyway so it may well have been a higher proportion of Democrats), you could make an argument that the Tea Party was more centrist than even eastern Republicans like Chris Christie.

[lllRorlll]

I would say that if your going to present this list to anyone, - change some verbiage ..
if I didn't know what I was reading... Or where it came from-I would think..... This dude is a conservative/ and there fore this is biased.
like for instance ... You say conservatives value "freedom trumps security"But then for the moron point of view -- you say. Security MUCH more important than freedom.
- I think that just makes the list look skewed.

[BigDee]

Thanks Ronin - thats what I was looking for! I just received back from my son's (who is very much a capital L Libertarian, as Mike Rosen would describe him) friend some of what his liberal friends consider to be conservative ideals:

- Anti-minority
- Basically racist, and dedicated to defending only what white guys like
- Pro big companies and opposed to small business and the government
- Favor business growth and pollution over the environment (support for Big Oil is evidence)
- Hate poor people and are usually mean to them
- Only care about the US and not the rest of the world
- Try to demean women and even want to keep them from voting (you can't make this stuff up)
- Always try to force Christianity on others and convert them

Here are some of the Liberal ideals they came up with:
- Care about all people (kinder, more caring)
- More money for public education
- Distrust the military and people who have been in the military. Military people want to start wars
- Open minded
- Favor unions as a way to protect companies from exploiting workers. All workers should be unionized
- Conservatives who can't be taught proper thinking should be excluded from leadership roles and the government
- All viewpoints are valid and must be considered (part of open minded thinking)
- Helping minorities and the rest of the world is more important than debt/deficit
- By spending more, we can eliminate worldwide poverty

I was pretty disappointed in these results - more emotional really and not a lot of substance. However, not really surprised. Kids that age tend not to know a lot about this sort of thing, and are more swayed by easy to say emotional arguments - no explanations provided most of the time.

I agree with the Christianity issue. Not all conservatives are hard core bible thumpers but The Christian hard core conservative right has become the loudest voice representing the conservative movement in this country. The Conservative movement will continue to lose traction in this country so long as the conservative movement continues to try and legislate what it deems to be socially appropriate behavior and does so on the sheer basis that its the way God intended for things to be.

[Goodburbon]

I'm a conservative.

I'm an atheist. I'm always pushing Christian views on everyone.

My best friend has brown skin, I hate him because I'm a racist.

My neighbor has a yard full of trash that blows into my yard when its windy, but I hate him just because he's poor.




The opposite of conservative to me is progressive, and both republicans and democrats are progressive. Mitt Romney is a self described progressive, and that's a major reason I didn't vote for him, I'm conservative.

Op your first post was pretty close to the mark.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[bryjcom]

I think we need to stop referencing the left as "Liberal" They are anything but "liberal" There is no "liberty" in their ideals with some small exceptions.

They are progressives, totalitarians, statists, useful idiots, etc, etc... But they are NOT Liberal.

[Ronin13]

Going from crazy right wing to left wing crazy it goes

Tea Party/Republicans/Conservatives/Liberals/Democrats/Progressives
I don't think that's a fair nor accurate assessment- sounds too inspired by both Glenn Beck and MSNBC. Tea Party is like a mix between Conservative-Libertarians and Conservative-Constitutionalists (if not full blown latter). You left out, what was the term everyone made fun of Graham and McCain as saying? Those 'libertarian kids'- ala Cruz, Rubio, and Rand. I'd realign that to be Tea Party (but they're not crazy, they're just right- pun intended)/Conservatives/Republicans/Libertarians/Progressives/Democrats/Liberals/Socialists (This last one includes the OWS anti-capitalists).

The opposite of conservative to me is progressive, and both republicans and democrats are progressive. Mitt Romney is a self described progressive, and that's a major reason I didn't vote for him, I'm conservative.
THIS! I consider my old man to be a fiscal conservative, social conservative, and Constitutional progressive (meaning he doesn't quite align to the right on the 2A issue along with a few other Constitutional issues).

[Hound]

I find this funny. The retorts to my post prove my point.

BTW: I am not a fan of Beck, I find him to be the Howard Stern of the right. He just says stuff to rile people up.

[DavieD55]

I think we need to stop referencing the left as "Liberal" They are anything but "liberal" There is no "liberty" in their ideals with some small exceptions.

They are progressives, totalitarians, statists, useful idiots, etc, etc... But they are NOT Liberal.




This ^^^^^^^^^^^

[Ronin13]

I think we need to stop referencing the left as "Liberal" They are anything but "liberal" There is no "liberty" in their ideals with some small exceptions.

They are progressives, totalitarians, statists, useful idiots, socialists etc, etc... But they are NOT Liberal.
FTFY. I feel that a lot of the left has no clue just how bad socialism and communism really are... A guy I knew growing up was born here but both of his parents immigrated from the Soviet Union in the late 70's. His dad had a lot of words of wisdom about Communism and just how horrible it was over there- mostly how under-appreciated a hard worker really is in a world of mediocrity and "equality".

Also, the thing I don't get about liberals (or whatever moniker you want to use for them) is how they can continue to call Republicans/Conservatives Nazis. Goes to show that Reagan was right: “It isn't so much that liberals are ignorant. It's just that they know so much that isn't so."

[Rabid]

LIBERAL TENETS
===========

- Security much more important then freedom

Both sides do this when it is convenient for them.

[Aloha_Shooter]

I find this funny. The retorts to my post prove my point.

Keep believing that.

[ROFL1] [ROFL2] [ROFL3] [ROFL2] [ROFL1]