Breaking in the new (to me) PTR-91 SC

[FRAG-AFE]

Since I'm new to the forum, I thought I would start something of my own. Not only as a reference to others who have this rifle or are thinking of getting one, but also for myself since I can't remember anything anymore.

With my tax return this year I purchased a used PTR-91 SC
27851
It came in this case from an FFL in Ohio. Though it was advertised to come with six magazines, it arrived with 8. Who am I to complain? It went well with the 5 that I ordered before I bought the rifle (just in case the "high capacity" ban went into effect early)

From what I could tell it was maybe fired a couple times at most. The spring was still super stiff and there were no scrapes or scratches on it.

[ray1970]

Nice. I had an HK91 years ago. They are awesome rifles. And you just can't beat the price of the magazines. They've come up a little recently. I think they are just under $4 a piece now.

[ray1970]

Oh, just a piece of friendly advice...

if you plan on saving your brass to reload, you might be disappointed. It tosses it pretty far and really dents the heck out of them.

[FRAG-AFE]

That much I did notice today as I do plan to reload. I'll probably have to go with a deflector. But I'll get to that farther down in the posts. I've got a lot of updates to make [Bang]
I bought the rifle over a month ago

[FRAG-AFE]

Even before my purchase I had already been gathering a list of things that I wanted to buy for it. First off I had been researching scopes, scope mounts, and bipods.
Before I get into those it should be noted that I own a small car (read '03 VW GTI). As a result, I needed to buy a case that would fit in my trunk. After some searching I found a sturdy case from Plano worked out perfectly for what I needed. It is the Plano 36" takedown case (photo is the stock one from their website). It fits perfectly in the trunk of the car (which is the exact width of the case)
27861
Once I got it I started trying to figure out how to fit the rifle in it with the scope and mount I planned on getting and the Harris bipod that I had already bought. After spending a good 20 minutes of turning the rifle all around in different configurations to come up with this in the end:

27863

As mentioned above, I purchased a Harris bipod model HBRMS. It is 6-9", swivels, and has notched legs. Since I did not have a sling swivel on the front I bought a cheap quick release picatinny one from Amazon which required a new nut from a hardware store to retain tightness. This mod was cheaper than buying a higher priced model. As some people might notice, I had to slide the bipod back to fit it in the box, then slide it forward to use it. (Scope and mount in the next post)

[FRAG-AFE]

As some people may notice (though there is only one person other than me looking at this right now as far as I can tell) I have a paper cutout in my case. Space reserved for the scope and mount that I had settled on after a bit of time looking. The mount took a while of sifting through reviews and trying to find a balance of price, quality, and things that I thought would be important. I wanted a one piece to avoid having to worry about the rings not aligning properly. Another advantage of the one I chose is that it is MOA neutral so I can mount it either way to accommodate eye relief once the future scope was mounted. I decided to buy the Burris AR-P.E.P.R. model without quick release for two reasons. First, there were more than a few reviews stating that they did not all have a good return to zero after remounting. The other reason is that I did not plan on taking this off as I currently own just one rifle
27871
Next was the scope. This was the hardest decision to make honestly. I kept looking at all the high dollar models from Leupold, Zeiss, and Nightforce. Then I kept thinking, iron sights aren't that bad considering my low budget. Then a friend introduced me to the SWFA SS MRAD scopes (www.swfa.com). Not only are they super affordable, they have gone through Army testing and were actually part of a contract that was outbid. They maintain a low price on most of the models because they are single power scopes. This also helps them to retain clarity and hold zero on a .50 BMG. I figured this would be enough to handle the reported brutal recoil of a PTR-91. Another advantage to this scope is the awesome reticle with lots of markers that don't get in the way of the target. This Mill reticle is made even better because the scope also dials in MILRADS as well so there is no need to do MOA to MILRAD math when at the range.
27873
The scope I ordered was a 20X42 model and I was just really hoping that it would clear the charging handle in the locked position on my rifle. As you can see below there was plenty of room [Wink]
27875
Who locks the bolt back anyway right?
So here's the picture of the mounted scope in the case. It fit just like I thought it would. See the advantages of planning ahead?
27877

[hghclsswhitetrsh]

Awesome thanks for sharing!

[FRAG-AFE]

not quite over for the night. I just want to get caught up to the present. One last purchase, then my day at the "undisclosed location" that my friends and I use for target practice [AR15]

[palepainter]

That is a pretty nice set up. You may run into problems at some ranges with the inability to lock bolt open.

[FRAG-AFE]

All was not well in my world of customization. After putting so much thought into the scope mount like making sure that it would give me enough clearance to still use the iron sights, adaptability, etc. there was an unforeseen problem. Once everything was mounted and I was checking out the fit of the rifle with the scope I discovered that I was getting more of a chin-weld than a cheek-weld. [fail]

This led me to my next purchase. From the beginning I wanted to model this rifle as closely to the MSG-91 as I could on a budget. This meant I would eventually end up dropping just over $300 on the Magpul PRS stock, but I didn't have it at the time. After some debating on the need for a fully adjustable stock over getting a fixed attachment to the current stock I opted for that second option. My reasoning was simple in the end. If I spent $300+ on a fully adjustable stock I would likely never adjust it again once I got it into the position I needed it to be in for a proper cheek-weld. It is for this reason that I saved a lot of money and dropped $45 on a cheek piece made for the original stock
2790127903
It fits perfectly and put me exactly in line with the scope! As it happens, I lucked out in the height of the AR-P.E.P.R. on the factory welded rail seems to put the scope at the same height as the original claw mount. Above is the picture of my rifle in it's current state. I removed the two side rails because I don't plan on putting anything there AND I was getting dangerously close to losing knuckle skin when pulling the charging handle. With a full magazine in it, this is a 14 pound rifle... She's heavy but I love her [Queen]

Slightly off the topic of my personal modifications, I'd like to take a moment to praise the people at PTR Inc. As it is somewhat known, the PTR is a stamped and welded receiver which could be produced in a garage. There are also plenty of gunsmiths out there who would be willing to weld the rail to the receiver (or in a worst case scenario, someone doing a bad welding job in their garage on it). Since I bought the gun used from a consignment gun shop I took a minute to write to PTR customer service asking when they could tell me about my particular rifle based in the serial number. They replied the next day with the year it was made, if it was a part of the dreaded trunnion issue (if it was, PTR will still repair it to the best of my knowledge under warranty), which model it originally was (YAY, the scope rail was factory on this one) and specifics of the barrel, "It has a match grade Thompson barrel with a SAAMI spec .308 chamber and Thompson's proprietary 1:12 5r rifling which reacts similarly to a standard 1:10 twist."
PTR Inc was also extremely helpful answering every one of the questions I had comparing each of the models, describing the differences, etc. They even offered to let me order one direct from the factory when none could be found on the market in the Dec/Jan time frame of this year. Of course, there was a 6-12 week wait on it.

[FRAG-AFE]

The bolt does lock open, I can even pass a single sheet of tissue paper between it and the scope. Man is it close though [Beer]

[FRAG-AFE]

Now for the fun part. I've spent all of this time and money setting up. I managed to acquire a total of 13 20-round magazines, and I purchased ammo as it came available. Admittedly, my original intent is to hand load for this rifle. I also know that it has a habit of denting the poo out of the brass. Because it was a nearly new rifle, I picked up a range of surplus through match grade ammo and some things in the middle. Most with varying weights so that I could try to figure out what bullet weight the rifle likes, which brand it seems to like, etc. in order to give me a good starting point when I do get to reloading (currently on hold due to a lack of powder and primers)

So me and a couple friends went to our "range" location this afternoon and I brought some generic Brazilian bulk ammo (147gr), Magtech (150gr), Federal Fusion (180gr), Federal American Eagle (150gr).

27911
27913
First, it was hot. I mean, the report said that it was mid-80s, but with no shade it is just absurdly hot. Second, according to the Kestral there was an almost constant tail wind of 4-8 mph. Third, don't judge me ;-)
I was out here just as much to have some fun breaking in a new rifle as I was to see how accurate it could be with me behind it (I'm not the best out there, but sometimes I like to think I'm almost good) I did not bring anything to measure actual groups, I did not walk down the range to change out the targets after every time I used them (you'll see below), and by the end of the day I had fired roughly 120 rounds our of this sweet rifle and I have the bruises to prove it [rockon]

Before reading below, please remember that this rifle was quoted from PTR Inc. as being a 2 - 3 MOA rifle. They did admit that given proper ammo it might drop into the 1-2 MOA range, so that's what I would like to aim for eventually as I get more comfortable with it.

The following are all at 100 yards except where noted.

So, first I decided to go through the stuff I knew I didn't have a chance of reloading, the Brazilian bulk ammo. I experienced only 1-2 failure to extracts from this ammo, could be chalked up to the break-in period, could have been that the ammo expanded too much in the chamber due to it being low quality. The world may never know. It took some time to get it into a group that I would accept as being accurate. Partly me, partly being impatient and not waiting for either a steady wind or a drop in the wind.
279153-inch orange target, ignore the low flyer (it was from earlier). The sheet behind it is 1" square. Not too bad for my first time out with a .308 and using the Brazilian surplus
27917This is a three shot group using the Federal Fusion bullets. It also makes me sad. The Fusion was a decently accurate round, but my rifle hated it. It turned a beautiful magazine fed semi-automatic rifle designed to be a perimeter sniper into a mostly accurate bolt-action without any of the advantages of a bolt-action rifle. Not buying that again.
27919 Sadly, this was my best group of the day. Why is this sad you ask? First, ignore the other bullets on the target, I was using the bench and firing through the chronometer so I was using the same target one of the other guys was using. So I didn't adjust the scope, I just kept aiming at the center. This group was not done with some awesome match grade ammo, nothing I hand loaded with case and precision, nothing special at all. One of the other guys brought some bulk Russian Brown Bear 145gr steel cased ammo that didn't extract properly from his rifle so we traded 20 rounds for 20 rounds. What you see in that circle is a 5 or 6 round grouping (I can't remember). Prior to moving to the bench I was 6 for 6 on cans of soda (12 reactive targets for $1.97. Just shake them up and leave them on the berm. Don't worry, we pick up all brass and clean up the area when we leave)

I have no pictures of the Magtech. Not only could I not land one on the 3" target reliably, it also jammed almost every shot I took.

Next, two of us decided to see what we could do... I assure you there is a target in this picture (slightly left of center):
27921
Couldn't see it? Here it is with my camera fully zoomed in:
27923
What you can see in orange is a target 18" wide and 36" tall. The yellow to the left is a standard bowling pin.
Using a sweet slide rule that my friend bought (I gotta get one of those http://www.mildot.com/ ) then double checking the calculation against the GPS waypoint he had placed at the target earlier, we determined that the target was roughly 807 yards away. He managed a hit on his second shot in the lower right corner. Using my magazine of American Eagle I managed a shot after 3 shots (learning how to use the turrets and holdover was cool). The nice thing is that, once I figured out my aim point I took another shot immediately after and scored another hit. I really wish I had checked the grouping at 100 yards with the American Eagle... next time.

Conclusions? I won't be buying Fusion, Magtech, or Brazilian again. I might try another box or two of Brown Bear if I can find it, and I didn't use my match grade Fiocci this trip. Other conclusion, much like the forums suggested, this rifle likes lighter rounds (150 and below worked best today) I want to try some Hornady 155gr if I can find it but I won't be going up above that again.

[FRAG-AFE]

After today's outing, I have determined a couple things about my rifle and future needs.

1 - the trigger is in need of some refinement. I have heard nothing but good things about Bill Springfield, and at $59 it seems like a great deal compared to paying the $700 for a PRG-1 trigger pack ( http://triggerwork.net/hk9xrifles.html )

2 - an upgraded recoil buffer, muzzle break, or both are needed in the future
http://www.hkparts.net/shop/pc/catalog/pwscompensator_1383_general.jpg$98.95http://www.hkparts.net/shop/pc/catalog/2stageheavybuffer-2_547_general.jpg$149.95

3 - I may get some better ergonomics if I shell out the $30 for the adjustable stock extension
http://www.hkparts.net/shop/pc/catalog/adjexthk91_129_general.jpg$29.95

Looks like I need to start saving up again.

[RedDogFabrication]

Looks good man, If it were me I would do trigger, buffer, brake in that order. The trigger on that rifle is a good military trigger but it was way too heavy. Recoil was not bad but It could use some work. and if the buffer solves it then no need to change the brake which can change the harmonics of the barrel, for good or bad. I think you need to find some Hornady A-max, after all you are a Honady guy "fanboy" sorry could no resist being a dick. Before any one jumps me, I was the other guy at the range.

[FRAG-AFE]

It's cool, I am a self admitted Hornady fanboy AND and H&K fanboy. The XTP rounds run perfect through my P30. Not to mention my while reloading setup is Hornady.

I didn't want to tag anyone in this post without talking to them first. Glad to see you subscribed.

Back on topic, I agree about the order to get things done. It felt like I was dragging that trigger on sandpaper on first shots. If I caught the reset it wasn't bad for followups. If $60 fixes that then it is well worth it. In addition, what's an extra $ 50 to get the buffer that has gotten such great reviews if it means I don't need to mess with a barrel that can clearly perform better than advertised (referencing the Brown Bear ammo)

[BPTactical]

You are wanting precision rifle accuracy out of a main battle rifle.
You are chasing your tail.
Even the vaunted PSG is not capable of the same accuracy of a dedicated precision rifle. No need to get the high dollar recoil buffer, just get the Buffer Technologies buffer for $15.00 or so.
Trigger work will help, YMMV with Springfield-he used to be great but I have had to rework a couple of his that were not so good. As of the last couple of years it seems his work has suffered. Check Williams for trigger work, http://www.williamstriggers.com/
Check the triple frame to barrel, if it is welded to the barrel forget it, you don't have a floating barrel so harmonics are of minimal value. I have seen both on a PTR and barrel wise the PTR barrels are heavier profiles, again minimizing harmonic issues.
One of the biggest detriments to accuracy on the HK platform is the mechanics of the locking system and the chamber flutes.
For optimum accuracy the bolt must go into battery and lock up the exact same way, every shot. Mechanical consistency. Due to "battle rifle"tolerances and the roller lock up this is virtually impossible to achieve. The flutes aid in case extraction by gas flowing back as the breech unlocks, essentially floating the case out of the chamber. Great for reliability but rotten for accuracy and it allows debris and carbon to blow back onto the bolt face, further hindering accuracy.
Not knocking the HK platform at all, my favorite MBR. Rock solid reliability, good accuracy and will eat any ammo you feed it.
Just not a precision rifle even in the PSG configuration, more of a DMR.

[FRAG-AFE]

Thanks for the link to Williams, I'll be checking it out later. You are correct about the barrel, it is a heavy barrel AND it's spot welded to the snowman (triple frame, whatever you want to call it ;)). Still, I like the flash suppressor and why change something if I don't need to.

I would also state that I agree with you about this rifle never matching up to a precision rifle, it's just not what it was made for. However it shows promise as a reliable and decently accurate rifle after the first day out with it. As I stated earlier, the fine people at PTR Inc. rated this as a 2-3 MOA rifle. I have no illusions of ever getting it sub-MOA. But if I throw a few mods at it and I can manage somewhere between a 1-2 MOA I'll be a happy guy. The other guys at the range can probably attest to this by my "evil laugh" every time I popped one of the soda cans at 100 yards [Muaha]. I admit, it's not going to get a .38 group like RedDogFabrication had on the same day (super sweet BTW). For reference, his is the one on the table in the pictures.

I am aware of the locking system on the rifle and so far it's holding specs on my home testing with the feeler gauge. The roller system was a bit of a selling point for me, I think it's really neat. Since replacement rollers of varying sizes are available cheap, should it ever fall out of tolerance I can easily swap them out.

At the end of the day, this is a hobby. I'm trying to put everything I was looking for when I was considering this rifle into one thread to make it easier for the next guy. Of course, I already covered some of it with the "will it fit in this breakdown case" and "how tight will that 42mm scope be on a 1" riser with the bolt locked back?"

[jerrymrc]

If you ever get down this way I will give you a few rds of ammo to try. The late Aussie surplus (88-92) is just about as good as it gets. I worked long and hard to get a handload to be as good in my Fal's.

[FRAG-AFE]

I get down that way once or twice per month. Want any of the stuff I listed (except the fiocci or the American Eagle, I still want to test that) I'm up for trading a few rounds for a few rounds in the name of ammo experimentation.
Send a PM though before this gets tagged as belonging in the marketplace that I'm nit allowed in yet ;-)
I'm too new to be breaking rules here

[Great-Kazoo]

Only 1 question. How come Goliath is not included in your avatar?

http://ts2.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.4988523887855845&pid=15.1

[FRAG-AFE]

because it's Moral Orel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_Orel

[RedDogFabrication]

Based on what I saw at the the range I would have to disagree with you on it not being a precision rifle. Maybe its not a .5 moa rifle but based on what I saw at close range 100 yards and later at 800 I think at least his PTR is as capable as a 308 with a light projectile is going to be. The barrel on that rifle seems to prefer the lighter faster rounds which are maybe not as good at the 1000yard plus mark but I would say at altitude out to 1000 that rifle is just fine on a man size target. I think people put too much emphasis into what a precision rile should be it's not a bench rifle and anything around 1 moa is fine for 1000 yards. based on his 100 yard groups his rifle fits the bill for a precision and he was able to make a real world repeatable shots on an actual target at range which is really what its all about.

[palepainter]

I would be happy with those results.

[RedDogFabrication]

Group from the rifle sitting on the bench

27997

[FRAG-AFE]

I know it's been forever (all summer to be exact) but I haven't forgotten about this thread. I just got bogged down with work and other things that needed to be done. In addition, I haven't bought any more ammo and I didn't want to fire everything I've got and have a really expensive paperweight in a nice case. On the bright side, Hornady finally shipped the free 100 projectiles that I got (for the cost of shipping) for purchasing their .308 die set. I got the set broken in when a friend asked me to load some brass for him, given that he supplied all the parts. With a little barter for the rounds that my rifle didn't like (that I gave to him) plus a little cash, I managed to score 400 primers and a pound of powder (plus whatever is left in his pound after I make 100 for him).
While not specific to breaking in this rifle, I will point out that the best money I spent for reloading for a rifle is a simple hand operated powder trickler and this little gadget from Lyman
32529 Thanks to the progressive reloading press I have, I also found a good use for the steel case ammo I was firing... I put a powder charge in one of them, then dump it in the scale at a little below what I want the weight to be, then trickle it home to whatever weight I want. Someday I might upgrade to one of those fancy digital auto trickle deals, but not anytime soon.

I bring up reloading because that's where I stand. A box of 100 of 150gr InterLock SP (http://www.hornady.com/store/30-Cal-.308-150-gr-SP) bullets, just over 75 cleaned and sized .308 cases (which came out much better than expected given the dings in the side), and enough powder to fill them. I just lack the time to fill them lately. Given the performance of the Brown Bear ammo at just under 150Gr I have some high hopes though I would like to try something like the 150Gr SST (http://www.hornady.com/store/30-Cal-.308-150-gr-SST/)... unless these work great, then why bother. At least as a fallback I can always buy really cheap steel cased ammo.

Hopefully I'll find some time here soon and get out to figure out how the new ammo is working.

[Bmac]

Just noticed your thread.

AWESOME job with that case, and everything else!

Got my PTR a while back and am wwwwaaayyy behind you on pimpin' it out. But now I am motivated.

Thanks for sharing

[FRAG-AFE]

Thanks for the post, I just wish I had gone out more than one time this year. Time was not on my side. I've got over 100 cleaned and ready 308 cases and an unopened box of Hornady bullets... Just no time. The couple times I have a couple hours I didn't want to shoot all the ammo I had (and hadn't gotten my bullets in the mail yet). At least there's still some time left this year... But not much, I hat laying down in able