View Full Version : NJ Police shoot suspect, save three children
In light of the anti-cop sentiment on the forum, I would like to offer this as a counterpoint:
http://www.nj.com/mercer/index.ssf/2013/05/police_stormed_trenton_hostage.html
Bailey Guns
05-19-2013, 20:22
Somebody here will find something wrong with what the police did.
People in glass houses, and all that.
KevDen2005
05-19-2013, 23:23
Oh my God, those police are acting too much like the military. This is the police state you have been warned about.
Great-Kazoo
05-20-2013, 00:08
3 hrs 66 views and the LE beaters are silent, mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
There's a saying which was used in the late 60's early 70's about us scooter guys.
WHEN WE DO WRONG NO ONE FORGETS
WHEN WE DO RIGHT NO ONE REMEMBERS.
It wasn't 5 minutes after the report of my brother being killed in 2011 on another board the first reply was Fucking ATF agent, deserved to die.
Which was conveniently followed up by my Unbiased ;) reply. 85% of the responses were positive the other 15% well IIRC 1/2 of then were permanently banned the rest, well deserved time outs. Which shows how tolerant and non-nanny the mods are here.
You have issues with LE fine, i do, some dating back 40 years. However calling for their summary execution [media style] if not blatant condemnation is many times, uncalled for. As was posted numerous times in numerous threads, Be it the CCW guy who chose not to engage the shooter, video of a no knock warrant etc. Unless you are the one mentioned in an article, armchair QB'ing is a waste of time and bandwidth.
that is all
DingleBerns
05-20-2013, 04:42
Bad cop no donut, should have shot his hand instead.
In light of the anti-cop sentiment on the forum, I would like to offer this as a counterpoint:
http://www.nj.com/mercer/index.ssf/2013/05/police_stormed_trenton_hostage.html
This is a good article. Thanks for bringing it out. Personally,I like that the cops backed off and dealt with the situation calmly. I think the 'anti-cop sentiment' statement is off though. I have read many of those threads/statements and the fact is (as I have seen it) that most of the posts by people on this forum in those threads have been of two vains 1) making statements on the specific thread topic where if there was not a problem with how the cop acted it would not be there. They usually state/support that not all cops are bad but xyz sitution was messed up 2) asking questions for better undertanding where things don't make sense to the poster (many times backed up by other posters saying they also don't understand). The whole 'all these threads are cop bashing' is off. Some do hate cops but that stance is not the predominant one. I do think there is a frustration when cops defend the actions of the cops in the video/article based on "They were only following procedures". It shows a lack of common sense (which is obviously subjective) on how to interpret the situation and worse sounds too much like "They were only following orders". It's OK to say the cops messed that one up and did great on this one without being accused of cop bashing.
I also agree the Mods have been pretty good on keeping balance.
Aloha_Shooter
05-20-2013, 06:59
3 hrs 66 views and the LE beaters are silent, mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
They just haven't woken up yet. [ROFL1]
Seriously, good article, glad to see more good stuff like this.
Great-Kazoo
05-20-2013, 07:01
They just haven't woken up yet. [ROFL1]
Seriously, good article, glad to see more good stuff like this.
Or made bail ;)
UncleDave
05-20-2013, 07:14
While I am critical of the actions of some in law enforcement, I overall support them. They should be held as examples of upholding the law, therefore held to a higher standard. Guardians of the innocent, deserving of a place of honor when doing the job right. On the flip side, flushed out when they transgress. In this case they deserve a hearty well done, and a metal for taking out the trash.
brokenscout
05-20-2013, 07:20
Well said, I like more good job articles..
While I am critical of the actions of some in law enforcement, I overall support them. They should be held as examples of upholding the law, therefore held to a higher standard. Guardians of the innocent, deserving of a place of honor when doing the job right. On the flip side, flushed out when they transgress. In this case they deserve a hearty well done, and a metal for taking out the trash.
While I am critical of the actions of some in law enforcement, I overall support them. They should be held as examples of upholding the law, therefore held to a higher standard. Guardians of the innocent, deserving of a place of honor when doing the job right. On the flip side, flushed out when they transgress. In this case they deserve a hearty well done, and a metal for taking out the trash.
Perfect!
Aloha_Shooter
05-20-2013, 07:55
In this case they deserve a hearty well done, and a metal for taking out the trash.
Agreed as long as that metal is gold/silver/bronze, has a nice engraving, and is hanging from some pretty ribbon.
Chad4000
05-20-2013, 10:18
Somebody here will find something wrong with what the police did.
second post of this thread.. you go there..... and it's the anti leo crowd that has you disliking this place? or aloha saying that anti crowd should take a thread or two off?
Chad4000
05-20-2013, 10:20
While I am critical of the actions of some in law enforcement, I overall support them. They should be held as examples of upholding the law, therefore held to a higher standard. Guardians of the innocent, deserving of a place of honor when doing the job right. On the flip side, flushed out when they transgress. In this case they deserve a hearty well done, and a metal for taking out the trash.
absolutely...
KestrelBike
05-20-2013, 10:22
second post of this thread.. you go there..... and it's the anti leo crowd that has you disliking this place? or aloha saying that anti crowd should take a thread or two off?
+1 let's all take a deep breath and get along.
Chad4000
05-20-2013, 10:22
This is a good article. Thanks for bringing it out. Personally,I like that the cops backed off and dealt with the situation calmly. I think the 'anti-cop sentiment' statement is off though. I have read many of those threads/statements and the fact is (as I have seen it) that most of the posts by people on this forum in those threads have been of two vains 1) making statements on the specific thread topic where if there was not a problem with how the cop acted it would not be there. They usually state/support that not all cops are bad but xyz sitution was messed up 2) asking questions for better undertanding where things don't make sense to the poster (many times backed up by other posters saying they also don't understand). The whole 'all these threads are cop bashing' is off. Some do hate cops but that stance is not the predominant one. I do think there is a frustration when cops defend the actions of the cops in the video/article based on "They were only following procedures". It shows a lack of common sense (which is obviously subjective) on how to interpret the situation and worse sounds too much like "They were only following orders". It's OK to say the cops messed that one up and did great on this one without being accused of cop bashing.
I also agree the Mods have been pretty good on keeping balance.
agreed
Boadie30
05-20-2013, 10:23
While I am critical of the actions of some in law enforcement, I overall support them. They should be held as examples of upholding the law, therefore held to a higher standard. Guardians of the innocent, deserving of a place of honor when doing the job right. On the flip side, flushed out when they transgress. In this case they deserve a hearty well done, and a metal for taking out the trash.
Agreed...
sellersm
05-20-2013, 10:28
Divided we will fall... It is NOT us vs. them. Kudos to the NJ LE that got the job done!
Took 'em long enough.
http://www.sherv.net/cm/emoticons/drink/very-drunk.gif
I've written/re-written three different paragraphs to respond on here, and each time decided to delete it. I just can't think of a civil, non-inflammatory way to express my thoughts. I'm trying to learn to judge people individually on their own merits/faults, and not lump them into a stereotype. I have varying degree of success.
lowbeyond
05-20-2013, 11:58
Somebody here will find something wrong with what the police did.
I think you are projecting. But you do sure sound like a victim, so, if that was your intent, congrats
KevDen2005
05-20-2013, 12:41
I think you are projecting. But you do sure sound like a victim, so, if that was your intent, congrats
Out of curiosity, how does he sound like a victim?
Bailey Guns
05-20-2013, 12:56
I think you are projecting. But you do sure sound like a victim, so, if that was your intent, congrats
You're certainly free to your opinion. Apparently I have a different opinion than you do. Mine has mostly been formed by how several members here have spoken of law enforcement in the past even when they have little knowledge of facts. It has nothing to do with being a victim.
ETA: Now that the shoe is on the other foot it seems the typical anti-cop suspects are easily offended. I wonder why that is?
Chad4000
05-20-2013, 14:04
You're certainly free to your opinion. Apparently I have a different opinion than you do. Mine has mostly been formed by how several members here have spoken of law enforcement in the past even when they have little knowledge of facts. It has nothing to do with being a victim.
ETA: Now that the shoe is on the other foot it seems the typical anti-cop suspects are easily offended. I wonder why that is?
whos offended?
Job well done on the Trenton PD's part- although that's quite a long stand off. This does bring one thing to light that I think so many fail to realize- course you all here should know this- it ain't Hollywood, one shot doesn't always mean one kill, at least not right away... "Gerald Tyrone Murphy, 38, was shot once and later died from his injures"; not sure exactly how much later, but it wasn't quick. Not always will the threat cease after one shot, luckily in this case one shot was enough to declare the scene under LE control and the scumbag didn't hurt anyone. All around, good day. [Beer]
whos offended?
More projecting. He's been a victim for too long[ROFL1] Quit being mean to the poor Ol' Bailey!!!
<MADDOG>
05-20-2013, 17:42
Sometimes I feel like I'm reading a future South Park episode with some of these threads, and the real Stans and Cartmans of the world just jump out at me...
Anyway, notch up another success for the good guys!
The whole problem is that somebody isn't respecting the authoritah...
Chad4000
05-20-2013, 17:48
Sometimes I feel like I'm reading a future South Park episode with some of these threads, and the real Stans and Cartmans of the world just jump out at me...
Anyway, notch up another success for the good guys!
LOL you cant stop there man,, call us out! whos who? hahahahah
I identify with Cartman all too often...
The whole problem is that somebody isn't respecting the authoritah...
D'OH!! [LOL]Say it.... Who gets Officer Barbrady????
sabot_round
05-20-2013, 19:24
I empathize with Police Officers. We do the same kind of work. Whether is them at responding to a call or whether is me engaging an objective in a modern combat zone. We never know exactly what we're up against and we've only got one chance to get it right. Be easy on the guys in blue!!
Goodburbon
05-20-2013, 19:33
While I am critical of the actions of some in law enforcement, I overall support them. They should be held as examples of upholding the law, therefore held to a higher standard. Guardians of the innocent, deserving of a place of honor when doing the job right. On the flip side, flushed out when they transgress. In this case they deserve a hearty well done, and a metal for taking out the trash.
Bingo.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
Byte Stryke
05-20-2013, 20:19
While I am critical of the actions of some in law enforcement, I overall support them. They should be held as examples of upholding the law, therefore held to a higher standard. Guardians of the innocent, deserving of a place of honor when doing the job right. On the flip side, flushed out when they transgress. In this case they deserve a hearty well done, and a metal for taking out the trash.
+1 and...
I would even go as far as to say most Law enforcement.
KevDen2005
05-20-2013, 20:23
+1 and...
I would even go as far as to say most Law enforcement.
I believe we are all well aware that you would be critical of most law enforcement.
Byte Stryke
05-20-2013, 20:31
I believe we are all well aware that you would be critical of most law enforcement.
I am critical of everyone granted the public trust
you guys gave my brother a gun and a badge ferchrisakes...
[panic]
KevDen2005
05-20-2013, 20:36
I am critical of everyone granted the public trust
you guys gave my brother a gun and a badge ferchrisakes...
[panic]
I'm afraid I haven't met your brother. However, I do agree with you that people who are given public trust should be held to a higher standard and that people should be somewhat skeptical. At the same time, the majority of law enforcement officers are actually there to help you, I know you don't believe that, and I don't care. I do know that I and my co workers will place ourselves between you and danger without being asked to and we will do so without knowing you or hearing your viewpoint on what you think of us. However, my belief is that many on this board, you included, would be critical of our actions no matter what we did, how hard we tried, what we tried to do right, and what we accomplished (even if bad guy was justifiably hurt/killed/taken into custody and good guy and citizens were not harmed at all).
Byte Stryke
05-20-2013, 20:41
I'm afraid I haven't met your brother. However, I do agree with you that people who are given public trust should be held to a higher standard and that people should be somewhat skeptical. At the same time, the majority of law enforcement officers are actually there to help you, I know you don't believe that, and I don't care. I do know that I and my co workers will place ourselves between you and danger without being asked to and we will do so without knowing you or hearing your viewpoint on what you think of us. However, my belief is that many on this board, you included, would be critical of our actions no matter what we did, how hard we tried, what we tried to do right, and what we accomplished (even if bad guy was justifiably hurt/killed/taken into custody and good guy and citizens were not harmed at all).
Shouldn't that be "suspect"
Do you mean critical like that?
;)
KevDen2005
05-20-2013, 20:49
Shouldn't that be "suspect"
Do you mean critical like that?
;)
Generally no, not like that, and I know you're being facetious now. And I'm certainly not offended by something like that. In fact, not to brag, but my reports were used as the departmental example and standard for national accreditation and have made many defense attorneys look stupid in front of a jury when they said, "why isn't that in your report" and I say, "it is, go to this paragraph."
I believe in very high policing standards and I also believe the majority of cops are like me. There are bad cops and crappy employees who are cops and don't do a good job doing anything. I would say, find me a job that doesn't. I certainly don't enjoy working with these people and I really have zero control over them unless they do something in violation of law or policy that I would most certainly report through my chain of command.
When a cop messes up it's national news and every cop is the bad guy.
<MADDOG>
05-20-2013, 20:50
Shouldn't that be "suspect"
Do you mean critical like that?
;)
Really...
GilpinGuy
05-20-2013, 21:10
The good guys win, the bad guys lose. And some of us still find a way to divide ourselves. [facepalm]
The good guys win, the bad guys lose. And some of us still find a way to divide ourselves. [facepalm]
Are you saying "We can't agree to just agree????" ........ I disagree with that!!! [JRope]
Chad4000
05-21-2013, 07:19
^^^ lol agreed!
When a cop messes up it's national news and every cop is the bad guy.
And this is where my major hangup is with society. Most people go around and believe that most cops are good, until they have a bad experience with one (where the cop is in the wrong, or is a dick- been there, done that), and once wronged they can go one of two ways, route 1, hate all cops regardless, based on the experience with one less than ideal LEO. Or route 2 (this is the way I prefer to err), base distrust on just that one cop, and generally assume most cops are good. While I had a bad experience with a LEO who I thought was my friend, I don't hate all of JCSO (I did try to get on with them earlier this year after all), I just think that single deputy is a POS. It goes back to that "Don't let one bad apple ruin the whole bushel" thing. [Beer]
CroiDhubh
05-21-2013, 11:53
One last piece of trash on the street.
This is a good article. Thanks for bringing it out. Personally,I like that the cops backed off and dealt with the situation calmly. I think the 'anti-cop sentiment' statement is off though. I have read many of those threads/statements and the fact is (as I have seen it) that most of the posts by people on this forum in those threads have been of two vains 1) making statements on the specific thread topic where if there was not a problem with how the cop acted it would not be there. They usually state/support that not all cops are bad but xyz sitution was messed up 2) asking questions for better undertanding where things don't make sense to the poster (many times backed up by other posters saying they also don't understand). The whole 'all these threads are cop bashing' is off. Some do hate cops but that stance is not the predominant one. I do think there is a frustration when cops defend the actions of the cops in the video/article based on "They were only following procedures". It shows a lack of common sense (which is obviously subjective) on how to interpret the situation and worse sounds too much like "They were only following orders". It's OK to say the cops messed that one up and did great on this one without being accused of cop bashing.
I also agree the Mods have been pretty good on keeping balance.
Agreed. There are some people here who think LE can do no harm and are untouchable. There are those of us who question things and people always should, but are generally in favor of law enforcement. Especially coming from LE, I am critical of how LE behaves and watch for overstepping boundaries and/or infringing on rights. There are those who are just critical of LE, but are in favor of them mostly. Then there are those who don't like LE regardless. Most people here seem to fall into those two middle moderates more than anything else.
Haven't seen cop BASHING, I've seen people questioning things, though.
This is something I struggle with, and am attempting to apply to all areas of my interaction with people - not just cops. I've never personally run afoul of the law, I've just had too many interactions socially with cops who had that entitled, "band of brothers above the law", arrogance. It also tends to vary by district, I find. For instance, the few cops I met up in Wy were amicable, regular people. The overwhelming majority of the cops I've interacted with in Denver, were rigid dicks. People say that cop-bashers (which I'm not - I'm just public about my general mistrust and wariness. Doesn't mean I don't recognize that they're still human beings with a difficult job to do.) probably feel the same about the military. I don't feel that way at all - to me, military folks made a decision to risk their lives defending our country and those that live in it. Police are there to make sure the citizens follow the rules, produce revenue for the state machinery, and as was proven by the majority (not all) of the police chiefs in the last round of legislation - disarm us. That's where my issue comes in. Some will say the cops are here to protect us, to which I respond - if people were responsible for themselves in the way that was originally intended, they wouldn't NEED protecting. I don't need to call 911 in the middle of the night, barricade myself cowering in the bathroom, and hope that the response time is adequate. I can deal with it adequately myself. I don't like this prevailing heavy-handed attitude that so many cops seem to have.
That being said, there are always exceptions. I'm not here to try and offend the resident LEO's on the board - I'm just expressing why I hold the viewpoints that I do. I'm sure that won't stop a few from getting bent out of shape and angry regardless, but there it is.
Aloha_Shooter
05-21-2013, 13:21
I'm not a LEO but at least one of my former Eagle Scouts and at least one of my former coworkers are. It may be a difference in perspective -- it irritates me when I see repeated "questioning" and consistent negative slant on any LEO article (including a positive one like this) from a particular poster. There are people on this board who go to great lengths to view every posting about something cops do in a negative light, to assume the cop is at fault in every instance. Each and every time. It's obvious behavior even if they abide by the board rules and avoid coming right out with Ice-T level cop-bashing material. Even knowing that, I was amazed at how quickly some people jumped to cast even the tiniest bit of skepticism or negative shadow on a positive story like this.
Cops have made the same decisions to put their lives on the line as those of us in the military (or in my case, formerly in the military). Most cops had a higher daily risk of not going home than I did because of my particular specialty and I knew it. They're there for societal protection and make no mistake -- it's needed no matter how self-sufficient you think you are unless you're living so far out in the hinterlands that I have to question how you're accessing this board.
Every societal group has a segment of people with a level of arrogance, people who think they're special, that the rules don't apply to them. That rarely applies to the entire group. Dingo wants to cite the police chiefs who side with the gun-banners, I'll cite the sheriffs who oppose them. When I was stationed in FL, I used to talk regularly with one of the local sheriffs because we both gathered at my friend's gun store after work to talk about firearms. He was one of the most pro-CCW people around and regularly handed out his card and let people know to call him directly if they had an issue with any of his deputies -- especially in matters concerning the 2A.
I wish all of the discussion about this stuff could go like this. That was an intelligent, carefully considered reply. I can respect and actually agree with some of it... I'm in agreement about not judging an entire group by the bad apples. Which is why despite the difficulties I have expressed earlier, I'm trying to adopt a broader perspective on it.
This whole thread is dumb. Those cops were filling their Saving Lives quota. No more, no less.
Chad4000
05-21-2013, 13:58
Haven't seen cop BASHING, I've seen people questioning things, though.
agreed here for sure.
croi you are LE right? (I may have picked that up by mistake)
KevDen2005
05-21-2013, 14:37
This whole thread is dumb. Those cops were filling their Saving Lives quota. No more, no less.
Irving, you always make me laugh.
Agreed. There are some people here who think LE can do no harm and are untouchable. There are those of us who question things and people always should, but are generally in favor of law enforcement. Especially coming from LE, I am critical of how LE behaves and watch for overstepping boundaries and/or infringing on rights. There are those who are just critical of LE, but are in favor of them mostly. Then there are those who don't like LE regardless. Most people here seem to fall into those two middle moderates more than anything else.
Haven't seen cop BASHING, I've seen people questioning things, though.
For some there is a pretty fine line between questioning things and bashing. They often can be confused as being one and the same. I can be critical of some actions, but I usually reserve judgement to be only upon those performing those particular actions, and not paint all LE with the same brush. If I say "XXX department went on a call of a loose dog, then got spooked because the dog barked and shot the dog; there is video and the dog posed no immediate threat, those officers on that call are in the wrong, fire them, prosecute them, what have you!" That is not bashing all cops, just bashing the ones that perhaps are incapable of doing their jobs properly and exercising restraint when it is needed most (or in the example I gave, have some fucking backbone). I critique based on a case by case, situation by situation, scenario by scenario case... Nothing more, nothing less. I usually view the majority of LE as good people, doing a hard, thankless job, until they give me a reason to think differently of that individual.
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