View Full Version : Help me tear apart this frightening video.
Pretty jaw dropping scary video from here locally a week ago or so.
Ultimately I'm sure I might offend someone on here associated with this group, but I'm pretty confidant that most would be appaled with the safety and general errors. Had a few other coworkers that were security/mp and combat mos in the military that were also cringing watching it. (Or just the funny things like the use of light bar Toyota/wagon in the class.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pID-WHQyHo
Highlights would be the wierd trailer action. Entering after knocking down fake door with gun not ready. Numerous hot weapon sweeps of each other and cameraman. (The 5 foot "shoothouse" walls..) Complete mag dumps on the first target they "see".
that cameraman has huge balls the whole time i was waiting for him to take a ricochet in the foot
Bailey Guns
05-26-2013, 18:57
OMFG. I wouldn't ANY of those guys behind me.
He was corrected by several AD mil personnel, including one guy that I know is a shoothouse instructor. He also got flak from several full time SWAT instructors as well. To date there is no acknowledgement of liability or danger, just pushback and spin control.
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/05/27/he5asyqy.jpg
Even when confronted with proof, he insists that there were no safety breaches.
Galaxy Note II + Tapatalk 2
boy thats a scary picture
StagLefty
05-26-2013, 19:01
No seatbelts in the trailer !!!!
Safer this these guys.
No offense to Die Hard TR fan boys.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=20e_1292474614
Trout Hunter
05-26-2013, 19:05
Disclaimer from me.....I have zero tactical training. Just good ole fashioned hunting/farm/shooting basics when it comes to safety.
That being said you couldn't pay me to shoot with those clowns. Way too many loaded weapon sweeps over other people that in real life situations are guys on your team. The general lack of safety shooting in it is mind blowing. Kept thinking "is this the video that the camera man gets smoked in?" This day in age with go pros and POV cameras there is no excuse for putting a person in the line of fire the way those clowns did to make a crappy video. Ruined one of my favorite songs from last of the mohican's to boot.
I love that five men fast team coming out of nini wagon @ 3:48. :D
Speaking of Yeager, if you check the other video's they have a reply on one of the nuts video's defending and saying how great he is.
http://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/2012/03/08/tactical-response-still-puts-photographers-down-range/
http://youtu.be/np9j77NHxlk
Safer this these guys.
No offense to Die Hard TR fan boys.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=20e_1292474614
Speaking of Yeager, if you check the other video's they have a reply on one of the nuts video's defending and saying how great he is.
TEAMRICO
05-26-2013, 19:24
Boy, that's a lot of TACTICAL CARDBOARD!
Best part was when the cameraman JUMPED INTO THE SHOOTHOUSE!!!
That whole show was scary.
ChunkyMonkey
05-26-2013, 19:28
1:06 summarizes everything.
that cameraman has huge balls the whole time i was waiting for him to take a ricochet in the foot
i thought they were shooting blanks, holy crap.
Cylinder Head
05-26-2013, 19:43
Woooow. No thank you sir. Muzzle sweep pic says it all.
Great-Kazoo
05-26-2013, 19:46
As was said somewhere else by an older wiser person, "non-ballistic shoothouses have their place assuming that you have rigorous safety protocols in place."
Oh jeez. SRSLY?
Nicer than i'd be. Tell me i was imagining a line of Live Fire with the camera man? In Front of them.
blacklabel
05-26-2013, 20:04
Never go full retard.
RonMexico
05-26-2013, 20:15
Wasn't this place a place a paintball company/ field 10 years ago. If that's the place, the owner/guy was a total f@@@ ing loser and he was a know it all. He keep telling me he didn't like hiring mil/LE bc they had bad habits...... After watching this I am speachless.
What's up with the weapons in the air?
On a side note;Give me 1 day with the chick with the nice ass and I will teach her how to shoot amongst other things.
Why did they holster and then draw when they picked up their mags .... if they perceived that a target was present why not stay engaged in the fight?
HBARleatherneck
05-26-2013, 20:36
i hate wondering, so who is running this? out the mother, so nobody here falls into the trap. idiots need to be exposed before someone dies.
Tinelement
05-26-2013, 20:36
I'm signing up just so I can ride in the wagon.
[facepalm]
BuffCyclist
05-26-2013, 20:50
I started watching, and then at 0:03, they misspelled "QuaRters", and gave up. And based on the first few posts here, I was positive the entire video went downhill from there, so I stopped watching.
Bailey Guns
05-26-2013, 20:52
Never go full retard.
Too late.
mackbamf
05-26-2013, 21:03
That wagon looks like troop transport Somali style. I think I may have watched old footage of one like that jam packed full of dudes with AK's being towed behind a mini truck...
Trout Hunter
05-26-2013, 21:04
Gets better if you go to the youtube page and check out the comments. Guy defends their terrible safety.
beast556
05-26-2013, 21:04
That was something special right there.
that cameraman has huge balls the whole time i was waiting for him to take a ricochet in the foot
There's a fine line between having balls, and being retarded....
As said already in this thread; Never go full retard.
10mm-man
05-26-2013, 21:27
No seatbelts in the trailer !!!!
^^^^ This! only flaw I seen...
OMG! Who posted this joke April 1 past already...
buffalobo
05-26-2013, 21:29
i hate wondering, so who is running this? out the mother, so nobody here falls into the trap. idiots need to be exposed before someone dies.
Video credits show Colorado Shooting Sports out of Greeley.
Appears to be the place east of Greeley on 34, after you cross the river leaving town. Old paintball place, as already mentioned.
Web site shows Anthony Navarro as proprieter.
ETA - I would be embarrassed to be associated with that video. So busy being a know it all I forgot to comment.:eek:
Sent from my DROID Pro using Tapatalk 2
http://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/2012/03/08/tactical-response-still-puts-photographers-down-range/
http://youtu.be/np9j77NHxlk
Holy shit are you fricken kidding me. Check out the dumb ass with the camera at the target line
And the dumb shit in the OD Green shirt should sell his gun and buy tinker toys because he is scary
HoneyBadger
05-26-2013, 21:45
I like the guy with the BMX bike helmet at 2:10.
LOL @ 3:20
LMAO @ the wagon
ROFL @ kicking down the cardboard door
WTF @ emptying the entire magazine (including the shotgun) at the first T-shirt they see..
This is scary and hilarious at the same time. Did anyone count the number of muzzle sweeps?
Big Wall
05-26-2013, 21:51
I drove past the Co. Shooting Sports building on Friday. It had a space available sign on it.
spqrzilla
05-26-2013, 21:51
I wouldn't let these Gomers carry a loaded gun near me, much less behind me. Not to mention that any beer belly toting hillbilly could backshoot the lot of them with a double-barrel shotgun before they had their thumbs out of their ass.
jhood001
05-26-2013, 21:53
This is scary and hilarious at the same time. Did anyone count the number of muzzle sweeps?
I stopped counting after 1.
HoneyBadger
05-26-2013, 22:01
I stopped counting after 1.
I guess it doesn't really matter after one, does it?
tmleadr03
05-26-2013, 22:12
Video's like these are why I don't like going shooting with people. I went out with one of Gabe and another guy from arfcom and the guy from arfcom had never met Gabe and I. Showed up with a bullet resistant vest on. I thought it was weird at the time, then I go watch these vids and think nope, under careful.
you can't convince me that video isn't a spoof. come on, seriously guys. the wagon alone should be the giveaway.
now spoof or not the camera man is very lucky to be alive.the muzzle sweeps i can see some noobs not thinking about and making the mistake, albeit a possibly life threatening mistake. but shooting TOWARDS another human being consistently? im not sure what to think of that one. how does someone not see that as a problem.
Great-Kazoo
05-26-2013, 22:48
I drove past the Co. Shooting Sports building on Friday. It had a space available sign on it.
He opened a place on 8th ave. LE discount glocks starts @ $600. OTC run $750. I'm not allowed in there.
Kraven251
05-26-2013, 23:02
This is scary and hilarious at the same time. Did anyone count the number of muzzle sweeps?
New Drinking game?
strm_trpr
05-26-2013, 23:25
WTF!!??
HoneyBadger
05-26-2013, 23:33
New Drinking game?
I'm in. Wait we're doing shots of beer, right? I don't think I could handle 30+ shots of hard liquor! [Shake]
crashdown
05-26-2013, 23:37
Ok, but is anybody gonna deny the tactical coolness of the wilted lettuce in the rifle shooters hats?
I like the part in the other video where the whole firing line has to do the Electric Slide.
ETA: Just watched the first video, and Oh My! Granted, I haven't had much training, nor given much thought about how I'd clear a house with a bunch of people, and not sweep anyone, but jeeze. Also, what is up with bursting into the room and looking around every where before engaging targets? I guess forget slicing the pie, but if you are going to run blindly into a room like that, at least be shooting at the first target you see instead of running to the middle of the room and just standing there.
http://i43.tinypic.com/2vlqgw4.jpg
ChunkyMonkey
05-27-2013, 00:34
^^ Stop insulting the mentally challenged folks please!
Bailey Guns
05-27-2013, 05:22
I drove past the Co. Shooting Sports building on Friday. It had a space available sign on it.
They probably all shot each other.
SuperiorDG
05-27-2013, 06:40
Sorry, dead serious. And worst part is our mall ninja was going around bragging about it, hence them getting scared at idea of him with a gun.
So you're saying your bro is in this video, give us a clue to which one he is?
I bet he's bicycle helmet boy.
Great-Kazoo
05-27-2013, 07:46
I like the part in the other video where the whole firing line has to do the Electric Slide.
ETA: Just watched the first video, and Oh My! Granted, I haven't had much training, nor given much thought about how I'd clear a house with a bunch of people, and not sweep anyone, but jeeze. Also, what is up with bursting into the room and looking around every where before engaging targets? I guess forget slicing the pie, but if you are going to run blindly into a room like that, at least be shooting at the first target you see instead of running to the middle of the room and just standing there.
Adrenalin rush , disorientation not knowing where the target was etc. No matter how good or bad a class is you get tunnel vision.
blacklabel
05-27-2013, 07:50
He opened a place on 8th ave. LE discount glocks starts @ $600. OTC run $750. I'm not allowed in there.
And $2,000 M&P9s. But it's worth it because it's got an Apex FSS kit and it's been stipled.
HoneyBadger
05-27-2013, 07:51
I'm betting he is the heavyset one that has terrible form with the pistol and is literally just pulling the trigger as fast as he can in the general direction of the target.... Video game style.
I'm betting he is the heavyset one that has terrible form with the pistol and is literally just pulling the trigger as fast as he can in the general direction of the target.... Video game style.
X2
Mall ninjaness and weight generally go hand in hand
I went to a QCB course once.
I guess that means I can teach that stuff now...
Be wise spending your money on training guys. There are a lot of shitbags out there.
hurley842002
05-27-2013, 08:21
I'm betting he is the heavyset one that has terrible form with the pistol and is literally just pulling the trigger as fast as he can in the general direction of the target.... Video game style.
I was thinking the same thing..
HBARleatherneck
05-27-2013, 08:30
and he is the "face" of guns in Greeley. every time the news runs a story they have him in it. not the kind of face we need.
wasnt his brother the platteville cop who shot the unarmed man a couple years ago?
OtterbatHellcat
05-27-2013, 08:38
Just plain... WOW.
losttrail
05-27-2013, 08:41
Have not had any formal training since military in the mid 80's, looking for a place to get some quality traning (and survive).
Neither one of these places works for me! Good grief, talk about scary.
Suggestions for quality training?
Have to get ready for the Quigley first.
I bet he's bicycle helmet boy.
Nope
I'm betting he is the heavyset one that has terrible form with the pistol and is literally just pulling the trigger as fast as he can in the general direction of the target.... Video game style.
Yeap
buffalobo
05-27-2013, 09:10
I went to a QCB course once.
I guess that means I can teach that stuff now...
Be wise spending your money on training guys. There are a lot of shitbags out there.
Sage advice, and I would take your QCB class. :screwy::D
Sent from my DROID Pro using Tapatalk 2
wctriumph
05-27-2013, 09:31
Nope, not interested in working with these guys.
Adrenalin rush , disorientation not knowing where the target was etc. No matter how good or bad a class is you get tunnel vision.
I don't buy it in this video. They all look like they are doing that trained side to side sweep that you see people do; like in that other video.
I'm not saying what you said doesn't happen, as I've missed targets before. This just looks like what they were told to do. Great technique for busting up back Room card games like in the movies.
blacklabel
05-27-2013, 09:51
Sage advice, and I would take your QCB class. :screwy::D
Sent from my DROID Pro using Tapatalk 2
It's so intense the acronym can't even handle the stress.
Sharpienads
05-27-2013, 11:03
Wow. Good thing those t-shirt wearing cardboard silhouettes weren't armed or else they would've smoked every dude that wasn't already taken out by friendly fire.
I do like how the guy throws the "flashbang" towards the end. Kinda a limp-wristed overhand toss. Would've been better if it hit the "door frame" and landed at their feet.
They misspelled "Quarters."
I don't understand the whole human-centipede thing they've got going on in the beginning of the video, and there's a lot of weapons being pointed at people. I don't thinik I would be willing to be in the group if they were armed with dart guns.
The whole t-shirts-on-cardboard-targets things is a bit disturbing.
All in all, I'd say most of these people need to refresh themselves with the basic rules of the range again, and stop trying to look cool for the camera. I get the impression they didn't get nearly enough chance at playing 'soldier' or cops-and-robbers when they were growing up.
airborneranger
05-27-2013, 11:42
And now the link is dead. Good thing I got to see that mess before they yanked it. WTF?
Sharpienads
05-27-2013, 11:44
And now the link is dead. Good thing I got to see that mess before they yanked it. WTF?
I can still watch it in the OP.
OtterbatHellcat
05-27-2013, 11:47
Did a sensitive Sally get their feelings hurt and request the board remove it?
Anthony is a member here..
Not justifying anything done in the video, I wasn't there, don't know shit, but I will say this to all of you talking about weapon sweeps -- in real life they happen. No one likes them, no one trains to purposely sweep the guy in front of you, but it does happen. While I am far from any expert on CQB (or anything else) I have watched and analyzed video of many groups and they all do it.
Lot's of things 'not to do' including oogling the chick in the levis...
OtterbatHellcat
05-27-2013, 12:03
I wonder if it's going to be a little rough at the office tomorrow morning.
I'm betting he is the heavyset one that has terrible form with the pistol and is literally just pulling the trigger as fast as he can in the general direction of the target.... Video game style.
He's the guy with the krinkov.
Kraven251
05-27-2013, 12:33
Member, not Member, don't care, you exhibit or allow that level of negligence with a weapon especially one you know without any doubt is hot, you need to be called out and get an ass chewing.
I would want to be corrected on that behavior, not only unsafe, but potentially lethal. bad juju
He's the guy with the krinkov. Think you two are talking two different things. Yes the guy with the krink I think is navvaro or whoever is the owner. Vs Honeybadger was talking about the mall ninja.
Couldn't read the thread thru my own facepalm....
HoneyBadger
05-27-2013, 12:45
Anthony is a member here..
Not justifying anything done in the video, I wasn't there, don't know shit, but I will say this to all of you talking about weapon sweeps -- in real life they happen. No one likes them, no one trains to purposely sweep the guy in front of you, but it does happen. While I am far from any expert on CQB (or anything else) I have watched and analyzed video of many groups and they all do it.
Sorry dude, but if you are not in a real "fighting for your life" situation, there is absolutely no way in hell anyone should get swept with the muzzle of a loaded gun. I don't give a sh!t what sort of training you are doing, or how tacticool you're trying to look. That level of negligence is beyond stupid and is incredibly risky. It's a wonder nobody got shot. [Shake] [facepalm]
HoneyBadger
05-27-2013, 12:46
Think you two are talking two different things. Honeybadger was talking about the mall ninja.
Correct.
SuperiorDG
05-27-2013, 13:05
As for me, I've have not taken a CQB course yet. That being said I have taken very basic to moderately advanced shooting courses and depending on the level of the shooters different range rules are followed. (Some are always followed 1 - 4, however) For example, in very basic courses if someone is forward of being parallel of you a ceasefire is called. Other courses, more advanced, we ran drills that had people forward, but never less then a 45 degree angle of you. Considering this, those guys in the video should not be in this kind of a course. Just from what I can judge with my limited experience they need to work up to this level. The full responsibility, however, falls squarely on the instructor(s). He should be vetting his students before excepting their money. I would have walk away as soon as I was told to do something I thought was not safe. And what is up with a course like this not requiring body armor and a ballistic helmet?
Correct.
Anthony:
http://caliban.dreamscope.com/chance/picts/HSP_AC1/20120622/small/IMG_5432.jpg
Mick-Boy
05-27-2013, 13:56
Don't train advanced skills with people who have no background doing (much less teaching) those skills.
Anyone can hang out a shingle. Buyer beware...
palepainter
05-27-2013, 14:57
Loved the Garden Trailer APV. :)
the whole vidieo looks like a" hey yall watch this moment " ,spent the whole time waiting for someone to trip and shoot someone in the back of the head , or a stray to punch through the tactical cardboard and hit the camera man .
When I attend tacticool class, I will be wearing my old Jofa Hockey helmet. [hahhah-no]
spqrzilla
05-27-2013, 18:40
I'm not claiming to be the lowest drag, highest speed operator because I ain't. I won't play internet resume. But I know what a house clearing exercise is supposed to look like. I've seen it done right, and I've even seen it done half-assed. That ain't even half-assed. That's comic book SEAL TEAM SIX s**t.
I don't know who the heck is running that "school" but he should be run out of town on a rail covered in tar and feathers.
Cylinder Head
05-27-2013, 19:05
Tactical Fatty needs more time at the static range before he heads back into any class environment. His gun handling and footwork are the stuff of legend. He looks like he's going to tip over at any moment.
hurley842002
05-27-2013, 20:16
Tactical Fatty.
LMAO!!
lowspeed_highdrag
05-27-2013, 20:33
Instead of all of the shit talking going on here, most likely by guys who have no idea what they are talking about, why not give some advice or offer solutions to help a Colorado Firearms business out?
strm_trpr
05-27-2013, 20:36
That video has too much fail to even state.
Aloha_Shooter
05-27-2013, 20:44
http://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/2012/03/08/tactical-response-still-puts-photographers-down-range/
http://youtu.be/np9j77NHxlk
Hey, at least Erika's hot ...
Hey, at least Erika's hot ...
That is why they get tons of hits from viewers. IMHO. :D
Anyone can be a YouTube Sensation. I remember when they first posted their stuff on YouTube.
I had to take all my over 1mil viewed firearm videos off of my YouTube at around 2008, because I was starting a job.
At that time, 1mil hit was 10x harder than now. Best way is to get hit was the good "tag" words PLUS few hotties from CU grad school to shoot some firearm.
<MADDOG>
05-27-2013, 21:08
Instead of all of the shit talking going on here, most likely by guys who have no idea what they are talking about, why not give some advice or offer solutions to help a Colorado Firearms business out?
+1
I don't know how many people in this forum have actually trained in room/building clearing, let alone actually done it under conditions; but as always, there seems to be quite a bit of armchair quarterbacking...
And no, I am not saying what they are doing is right; but how many on this forum actually know what they are doing wrong?
Edit: and if you don't think "sweeps" happen, that's the first indicator.
You're right they happen. Any video of just troops in Afghan moving around you see it. The difference is for it to be a class with at least one "noobie" that kind of thing is far from safe. It's something several non gun owners that have seen it can recognize and cringe.
Some may be too much arm chair, but in this community there is certainly enough who this is their profesion to be able to say that is headline news waiting to happen.
Perhaps the students would be better served using paintball guns to train under these conditions, so that mistakes are merely painful and embarrassing, rather than potentially fatal. No doubt, sweeps DO occur under extreme training conditions by highly trained individuals, but it quickly becomes obvious that these students were NOT that advanced. I have essentially no experience and may be way off base, but in any other skilled discipline, you learn to walk before you run in the Olympics...
HoneyBadger
05-27-2013, 21:30
Edit: and if you don't think "sweeps" happen, that's the first indicator.
I stand behind everything I said in post #82.
<MADDOG>
05-27-2013, 22:40
I stand behind everything I said in post #82.
I stand behind everything I said in post #82.
Both of you gentlemen are correct.
What I AM trying to point out is those on the forum, are those with little or knowledge of any given subject (pick your poison), interjecting his/her $.02 worth. And it happens forum-wide; let it be LE issues, Remington is better than Savage, 9 vs 40. etc, etc...
And again, I am not saying what they are doing is wrong or right. And my short rant begins here: unless you have LE/military experience in these matters, or any other subject matter while I am it (and no, NRA "certification" does not qualify you), you need to put the X-box away and/or turn off the You-Tube, get away from the paper silhouette at 100 yards, sit down, and shut the fuck up. You have no experience or justification to comment on anything.
At the end of the day, I have far more respect for these Paul Blart mall cops over shit talkers, because at least they try to train (however bad it may be), which is probably more than a majority on this forum. If one of these guys catches it in the brain-bucket, so be it. At least they died training and/or doing what they liked/loved instead of ridiculing people on the internet. <rant over>.
If this offends you; pound sand. I hit the audience I was targeting...
newracer
05-27-2013, 22:57
They must really not like those T-shirts.
airborneranger
05-27-2013, 23:06
At the end of the day, I have far more respect for these Paul Blart mall cops over shit talkers, because at least they try to train (however bad it may be), which is probably more than a majority on this forum. If one of these guys catches it in the brain-bucket, so be it. At least they died training and/or doing what they liked/loved instead of ridiculing people on the internet. <rant over>.
This is actually pretty funny. You have more respect for those who train like tools and actually put their lives in danger? Give me a freaking break. That video just made me laugh at loud at how ridiculous and dangerous it was for all of those involved. It is a perfect example of Xbox gamers thinking that they can transfer that bullshit into some sort of tactical training.
The negative posts in this thread have been absolutely spot-on whether or not these folks have actual "CQB" experience is not relevant. You don't need any to see that this video is complete crap.
On another note, just because you are law enforcement (SWAT) or in the military DOES NOT mean that you have actual CQB experience. I have witnessed good SWAT and absolute shit SWAT over the years. The same goes for the military. There are very few units that are proficient in CQB due to the amount of time and training it takes to achieve any level of proficiency.
Continue to defend this crap because it makes my days go by faster.
Cylinder Head
05-27-2013, 23:12
At the end of the day, I have far more respect for these Paul Blart mall cops over shit talkers, because at least they try to train (however bad it may be), which is probably more than a majority on this forum. If one of these guys catches it in the brain-bucket, so be it. At least they died training and/or doing what they liked/loved instead of ridiculing people on the internet. <rant over>.
If this offends you; pound sand. I hit the audience I was targeting...
First of all, check the title of the thread. OP is doing the community a service by making sure Tactical Fatty isn't armed. The day that guy manages to channel Travis Haley instead of Clarice Starling while clearing a cardboard room is the day I will refrain from commenting.
I have a real question. What is the preferred "ready" position with a pistol when sharing a space with other people? I can see why they are holding their guns vertical so as to not sweep the others, but I was under the impression that was kind of old school thinking.
If people want to be productive with this thread, let's start there.
spqrzilla
05-28-2013, 00:01
MADDOG, you could not be more wrong. The video shows that the "training" is badly and recklessly done. Their basics are wrong. They orient in rooms incorrectly, they engage incorrectly and their weapons handling is incorrect and all of it is flat out dangerous. Competent training instils those basics and hones them before having them demonstrate it with live weapons.
And you can put your sand back where you found it - in yer britches.
When someone does EVERY Fken Sht right, there are risk getting injured. However, it MIGHT be minimal near zero.
Why increase myself getting shot?
Can I save myself a fken-time by crossing the Interstate Hwy/Freeway , and not take the overpass? I GUESS I CAN.
Success rate can be over 99.999% to cross the major busy interstate hwy, but I am NOT willing to take that stupid unnecessary risk to save lousy 5 minute of my time. I will take the overpass every damn time.
I am not a gamer nor keyboard commander. If it is the case, I would rather fken be a g-damn YouTube and/or gladly play a war video game console than a guy who EXPONENTIALLY increase their risk to getting shot at a undisciplined kill house.
TheBelly
05-28-2013, 06:12
Just horrible weapons manipulation... From every aspect of the discipline.
The COD crew hasn't learned that it does take a bunch of time at the range with real bullets fired to develop the discipline to try something such as shooting in enclosed spaces with others near by.
Practice........ then the big game. Never the other way around.
Bailey Guns
05-28-2013, 06:32
Both of you gentlemen are correct.
What I AM trying to point out is those on the forum, are those with little or knowledge of any given subject (pick your poison), interjecting his/her $.02 worth. And it happens forum-wide; let it be LE issues, Remington is better than Savage, 9 vs 40. etc, etc...
And again, I am not saying what they are doing is wrong or right. And my short rant begins here: unless you have LE/military experience in these matters, or any other subject matter while I am it (and no, NRA "certification" does not qualify you), you need to put the X-box away and/or turn off the You-Tube, get away from the paper silhouette at 100 yards, sit down, and shut the fuck up. You have no experience or justification to comment on anything.
At the end of the day, I have far more respect for these Paul Blart mall cops over shit talkers, because at least they try to train (however bad it may be), which is probably more than a majority on this forum. If one of these guys catches it in the brain-bucket, so be it. At least they died training and/or doing what they liked/loved instead of ridiculing people on the internet. <rant over>.
If this offends you; pound sand. I hit the audience I was targeting...
This post is as full of FAIL as the video.
SuperiorDG
05-28-2013, 06:40
Both of you gentlemen are correct.
What I AM trying to point out is those on the forum, are those with little or knowledge of any given subject (pick your poison), interjecting his/her $.02 worth. And it happens forum-wide; let it be LE issues, Remington is better than Savage, 9 vs 40. etc, etc...
And again, I am not saying what they are doing is wrong or right. And my short rant begins here: unless you have LE/military experience in these matters, or any other subject matter while I am it (and no, NRA "certification" does not qualify you), you need to put the X-box away and/or turn off the You-Tube, get away from the paper silhouette at 100 yards, sit down, and shut the fuck up. You have no experience or justification to comment on anything.
At the end of the day, I have far more respect for these Paul Blart mall cops over shit talkers, because at least they try to train (however bad it may be), which is probably more than a majority on this forum. If one of these guys catches it in the brain-bucket, so be it. At least they died training and/or doing what they liked/loved instead of ridiculing people on the internet. <rant over>.
If this offends you; pound sand. I hit the audience I was targeting...
I would say a lot of folks here have the basic gun handling knowledge to comment on their gun handling skills. The guys in that video lacked these basic skills.
hghclsswhitetrsh
05-28-2013, 06:42
I thought it looked like a Charlie's angels tryout/blooper video.
here is the key piece of information you are forgetting. they made a video out of it, complete with music and everything else, to try to make it look badass, mostly for marketing. if you do that and show big mistakes in safety, people are going to harp on that. if nothing else, the camera man is ridiculous. sweeps happen in real life, you bet, but at that point your life is on the line already and its the last thing you think about. you train avoiding sweeps so that hopefully you limit them in the real life situations as much as possible.
Both of you gentlemen are correct.
What I AM trying to point out is those on the forum, are those with little or knowledge of any given subject (pick your poison), interjecting his/her $.02 worth. And it happens forum-wide; let it be LE issues, Remington is better than Savage, 9 vs 40. etc, etc...
And again, I am not saying what they are doing is wrong or right. And my short rant begins here: unless you have LE/military experience in these matters, or any other subject matter while I am it (and no, NRA "certification" does not qualify you), you need to put the X-box away and/or turn off the You-Tube, get away from the paper silhouette at 100 yards, sit down, and shut the fuck up. You have no experience or justification to comment on anything.
At the end of the day, I have far more respect for these Paul Blart mall cops over shit talkers, because at least they try to train (however bad it may be), which is probably more than a majority on this forum. If one of these guys catches it in the brain-bucket, so be it. At least they died training and/or doing what they liked/loved instead of ridiculing people on the internet. <rant over>.
If this offends you; pound sand. I hit the audience I was targeting...
Instead of all of the shit talking going on here, most likely by guys who have no idea what they are talking about, why not give some advice or offer solutions to help a Colorado Firearms business out?stationary cameras (without a camera man ) , paintball might be a better idea for people starting out , better wall system , better shot placement and less mag dumping (that comes with experience so i really cant fault the instructors for that ) .
NCPatrolAR
05-28-2013, 08:18
Instead of all of the shit talking going on here, most likely by guys who have no idea what they are talking about, why not give some advice or offer solutions to help a Colorado Firearms business out?
1. They arent interested in receiving any help.
2. Some things that should be changed include:
- Lengthen the course. Trying to take people from 0 expereince to the point where they are doing 4-5 man entries is bordering criminal. Most basic CQB courses have a single person doing limited live-fire entries after 2 days.
- Stop using pyro. Using smoke grenades in a non-ballistic shoothouse (use that therm loosely) with low-skilled shooters is unsafe
- Get the camera people away from behind the targets
- Correct people when they muzzle other students
- Can the ballistic masturbation. Mag dumps on single targets with no regard for accuracy or ammo management is the sign of the low level of understanding of the material possessed by the instructor
Thats a few things off the top of my head. [2cents]
I have a real question. What is the preferred "ready" position with a pistol when sharing a space with other people? I can see why they are holding their guns vertical so as to not sweep the others, but I was under the impression that was kind of old school thinking.
If people want to be productive with this thread, let's start there.
I was tought a slight variation on Sul. That was many years ago. Don't have any clue as to what the modern thinking is but Sul seemed to work well for me and the people around me. The only real problem with it, that I saw, was that you were at max compression so there wasnt much time to react and reorient for bad-breath sudden reactions.
Great-Kazoo
05-28-2013, 09:57
+1
I don't know how many people in this forum have actually trained in room/building clearing, let alone actually done it under conditions; but as always, there seems to be quite a bit of armchair quarterbacking...
And no, I am not saying what they are doing is right; but how many on this forum actually know what they are doing wrong?
Edit: and if you don't think "sweeps" happen, that's the first indicator.
I've attended a few courses where room clearing was job 1. IF and when an issue arose. THE people involved were stopped immediately. The RO's (Multiple) were right there and literally grabbed / contained the shooter from behind when & if a muzzle sweep was starting to happen.
Did i ace the courses not every time. the room clearing was the most stressful / adrenaline charged part. Mistakes do happen. mistakes are corrected there and then. Not put out on the internet. Open to criticism, not ignored.
Anthony is a member here..
Not justifying anything done in the video, I wasn't there, don't know shit, but I will say this to all of you talking about weapon sweeps -- in real life they happen. No one likes them, no one trains to purposely sweep the guy in front of you, but it does happen. While I am far from any expert on CQB (or anything else) I have watched and analyzed video of many groups and they all do it.
HoneyBadger hit it perfectly... Have you ever been in a CQB training situation? Real world CQB? I've been in training and they mess you up bad if you sweep someone. What they don't show in those BUD/S videos is how many pushups and how many instructors are in your face if you sweep a teammate. Safety is serious shit. I wouldn't go out with the guys in the OP... ever. They just wanna look cool, and I'd rather look uncool and not get shot.
The second video- wow... cameraman on the firing line, DOWNRANGE from hot weapons? WTF? And what's the deal with the 360 turn around thing? One moment of lax and someone could get popped. [Bang]
lowbeyond
05-28-2013, 10:33
it would have been better if the pyro set the cardboard on fire. then it would be awesome !
needs MOAR fire !
buckshotbarlow
05-28-2013, 10:41
Is the vid/people in the vid up for a darwin award?
ChunkyMonkey
05-28-2013, 10:44
I cannot believe such video is being defended.
Boadie30
05-28-2013, 10:50
Yes sweeps happen, and when they did, we cleaned the barracks over and over and over and over.....[mop]
I'm playing catch up after a great, practically 4-day, weekend. *Habitat for Humanity on Friday* does that count?
Without reviewing all of the comments in this thread, I'll say this... They're lucky no one ended up dead or in the hospital, and the intentional practice/training of pointing your firearm straight up in the air is nonsensical. Haven't they heard of the SUEL position? Each time I see more of these shooting videos and have range days with new guys, I'm reminded of how EVERYONE has more to learn and efforts to improve ones methodology should always be sought.... no matter how good you think you are. AND SAFETY MUST ALWAYS COME FIRST! ALWAYS!!
RblDiver
05-28-2013, 10:59
I have _zero_ experience in anything of this sort, but it sure seemed to me like the guy was practically trying to hug those tshirts he got so close when engaging.
akumadiavolo
05-28-2013, 11:01
Lot's of things 'not to do' including oogling the chick in the levis...
I have to admit I was actually so focused on her nice ass I didn't even notice the cameraman standing next to the targets the first time I watched it. I can't help it, I'm an ass man.
I have to admit I was actually so focused on her nice ass I didn't even notice the cameraman standing next to the targets the first time I watched it. I can't help it, I'm an ass man.
Where is the hot chick?
Great-Kazoo
05-28-2013, 11:24
I have to admit I was actually so focused on her nice ass I didn't even notice the cameraman standing next to the targets the first time I watched it. I can't help it, I'm an ass man.
Like wise. breast sure they're nice. But a nice pair of legs and attractive ass, WINNER
HoneyBadger hit it perfectly... Have you ever been in a CQB training situation? Real world CQB? I've been in training and they mess you up bad if you sweep someone. What they don't show in those BUD/S videos is how many pushups and how many instructors are in your face if you sweep a teammate. Safety is serious shit. I wouldn't go out with the guys in the OP... ever. They just wanna look cool, and I'd rather look uncool and not get shot.
You are making my point. I wasn't justifying sweeps - I am just saying they happen. In training (where you are supposed get your ass chewed) and in real life. It was in response to those saying that the sweeps, in of themselves, deny any legitmacy to the training - and that it doesnt happen with real world people. It does, from the 1C2Xs, 18Xs to the 11Bs and everyone in-between.
Again not justifying the video in any way. Just clarifying that if you are going to deny it then do it for the right reasons (and there are many).
kidicarus13
05-28-2013, 11:42
I can't help it, I'm an ass man.
You're an ASS! ...man
You are making my point. I wasn't justifying sweeps - I am just saying they happen. In training (where you are supposed get your ass chewed) and in real life. It was in response to those saying that the sweeps, in of themselves, deny any legitmacy to the training - and that it doesnt happen with real world people. It does, from the 1C2Xs, 18Xs to the 11Bs and everyone in-between.
Again not justifying the video in any way. Just clarifying that if you are going to deny it then do it for the right reasons (and there are many).
Yes, they do happen, but they shouldn't. 3-Days of shoot house training (CQB), day 1, sweep, instructors break the violator down (dry run, no ammo). Day 2 and 3... ZERO sweeps. Amateurs train until they get it right. Professionals train until they get it wrong. Clearly the OP video showed a bunch of amateurs who need to train more, and should probably work without rounds the first few times until they don't sweep their partners. I should have clarified in my post that dry run is so you can ID the problem areas. I'd rather train and have an empty chamber sweep me and the guy learn the mistake so it's not made on a hot run.
SuperiorDG
05-28-2013, 12:05
Where is the hot chick?
Erika dude. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=np9j77NHxlk
Forward to 1:13
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q11pqA420pI
kawiracer14
05-28-2013, 14:19
Erika dude. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=np9j77NHxlk
Forward to 1:13
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q11pqA420pI
The best is that I'm at work so I have to watch this without sound.
Video's like these are why I don't like going shooting with people. I went out with one of Gabe and another guy from arfcom and the guy from arfcom had never met Gabe and I. Showed up with a bullet resistant vest on. I thought it was weird at the time, then I go watch these vids and think nope, under careful.
Not all shooting events are like that. I have been out to the Northern Colorado IDPA shoots and they are very conscious about safety. 1 sweep and you are gone, even across yourself. I was cautioned for a possible sweep of my thumb during a re-holster (it was a crap neoprene holster used in a pinch causing the problem). The shit you would catch sweeping somebody else like that pic... don't wanna think about it. Running 5 or 6 scenarios at a time with only one person locked and loaded at a time, RO watching and walking with you, everybody giving constructive criticism on technique, safety, etc. They are not all like these vids or the FBI statistics would be much worse. Are you kidding me with being down range taking pics!!!!!! That place gives all of us a bad name.
Are you kidding me with being down range taking pics!!!!!! That place gives all of us a bad name.
Yeah, that's full retard right there. If you ever watch the Magpul Dynamics videos, they always position a camera downrange and pretty much hope that it doesn't move, because no one is manning it if it's on the receiving end of the firing line.
KevDen2005
05-28-2013, 15:23
WHY ARE YOU HATING ALL OF MY GROUP TRAINING?!
Just Messin' that was stupid. Don't train with those idiots!
Byte Stryke
05-28-2013, 20:01
Man, I'd rather go train with Parker PD than those guys
;)
Mick-Boy
05-28-2013, 21:00
It's interesting to me to see some of the responses in this thread. I think there are at least a couple of points worth addressing.
You don't have to be a gunfighter to teach people safe gun handling and marksmanship.
Not flagging your buddy is basic weapons safety. If you can't reliably handle the basics, you have no business moving on to something more advanced.
CQB (definitely an advanced skill set) involves processing massive amounts of information while moving, target discriminating, using better than average marksmanship and applying the previously mentioned safe gun handling. And it's doing all of that faster than someone else who's trying to kill you. CQB is chess to the square range's checkers.
To properly instruct someone in an advanced skill like CQB, you need to be a subject matter expert (with the depth of experience that implies) and be able to deconstruct everything to its most basic components.
Generally that means that the instructor has received formal instruction in CQB operations at a MIL or LEO unit, trained for and conducted CQB operations and finally instructed students in CQB within the framework of a unit that has established and successful SOPs.
Watching videos or attending a one week class just don't cut it.
If the instructor at the CQB class you're looking at can't or won't supply credentials to support teaching advanced skills, go elsewhere.
If the instructor can't handle being questioned on a TTP, go elsewhere.
If the instructor can't adequately explain why he's teaching what he's teaching, go elsewhere.
We, here in Colorado, had two classes taught by former Tier 1 operators canceled in the last two months due to lack of interest. I know time, ammo and money are tight right now. Don't waste them training with people that are regurgitating whatever lessons they could cherry pick after hanging around true SMEs.
I'm strictly an end user here. I just hate to see bad information get passed to good folks who want to learn but don't know what they don't know.
His response .
spot on. Don't seek out professional training from amateurs.
spot on. Don't seek out professional training from amateurs.
It is similar to getting a tax advice from a master plumber.
Maybe roter rooter will hire CPA or Tax Attorney to become their part time plumber.
http://youtu.be/m4SDFmyRsRE
Another one I recently saw a HUGE training muzzle sweep during live fire video. I have the feeling it's one of those, "don't get professional training from ameteurs thing".
You are 100% correct. My apologies. I was incorrect and misreferenced the company. I edited my original reply. Again, my apologies.
buckshotbarlow
05-30-2013, 12:16
Damn, hot red head at the gun range? i require bikini pics!!!
Erika dude. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=np9j77NHxlk
Forward to 1:13
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q11pqA420pI
Mick-Boy
05-30-2013, 14:33
[blah-blah]
So you disagree... Care to rebut?
^--- Could make it the official : Training classes not to take, or people who should not be armed thread.
I think the problems in the original video have been pretty well covered. However, I believe the root of the problem is people teaching over their head. Of course we all want to be a subject matter expert, gun ninja. The thing is, as with every profession or interest those who are truly well versed in a subject know how much they have to learn and remain humble about their skills. How many championship winning coaches have you heard preach a million times about reinforcing the basics? There is a reason for that.
I have no idea what it feels like to be standing in a stack waiting to make entry on a room full of bad guys. But I imagine it feels a little better knowing that the guy behind you doesn't have his finger resting on the trigger and that if he trips he isn't going to accidently shoot you in the back.
We are in a precarious place right now in that there are a lot of people seeking weapons training, which is fantastic. However, these people are infants in the area of training and weapons manipulation and don't even know what questions to begin asking. They may know the four fundamental safety rules. Good, now why do we use those rules? What does keeping your weapon pointed in a safe direction mean when moving through a house with teammates in front of and behind you? We as the gun community need to be very careful of the advice and TTPs we pass along. The burden is especially heavy on instructors. These new shooters are going to take what they hear from you as law.
The unfortunate reality is that safety and training issues will eventually sort themselves out. However, it is going to be someone pulling a Sonny and killing a student, or the like. Situations like that just make it harder on the rest of this and give the anti-gunners one more reason to come after us.
All this is to say, to those of you teaching please be extraordinarily careful what you teach. Make sure you know the real life why to everything you are passing along. Know what it looks like when a student is outrunning his headlights.
To those of us seeking training, ask yourself, do I want to learn from someone who has read a lot about this, or someone who has done this for a living? I don't know about you guys, but in college I encountered a number of professors who had spent their careers in academia; those who had never left college. They had a great amount of knowledge, some of which was really useful. However, there were also those professors who actually worked in the subject they were teaching. Those were they guys who could pass along the real, actual, relevant information. They knew what worked, what didn't and why in real life, not just in the classroom. These are the guys I look to for weapons training. I want to learn from a guy who has carried a gun for a living, who had developed a skill set because his life depended on it. In my experience this is the one who can teach you what really works, not just what looks neat. Ok, rant off. I apologize, I had a little caffeine, and this is what happened.
So after enough crap, looks like they pulled the video, thanks for the liveleak rehost. I hadn't had a chance to show my head boss who is the one who'd need to see it.
<MADDOG>
05-30-2013, 23:56
It's interesting to me to see some of the responses in this thread. I think there are at least a couple of points worth addressing...
I think the problems in the original video have been pretty well covered. However, I believe the root of the problem is people teaching over their head. ..
+1 on both of these.
Again, my point was, and still is; a preponderance of arm-chair rangers are commenting on this video with zero to little training on this subject matter. Those who are humble enough to know what they are talking about, or ready to learn of a subject matter and willing to rely on those who do, are clearly evident after I made my comment.
And please allow me to clarify, I give these guys a 1 out of 10 on my respect factor, because they are still conducting ignorant/stupid acts (ref: my brain bucket comment & Paul Blart; and why I must state that is beyond me). The way I see it; these gentlemen may very well "chlorinate the gene pool" as one gentleman on this forum had in his signature line.
Those who commented "fail" because they failed to understand my point, otherwise blow supposed facts/opinions out of their ass because they have watched a video, took a 1 day course , and/or feel the need to ridicule stupid people for doing stupid things on the internet = 0 respect. You are gaining nothing pretending to be something you are not, and please still feel free to pound sand...
buckshotbarlow
05-31-2013, 19:59
finally found it...maybe you should show this to the crew...
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=442_1369923808
What happened to the rehosted liveleak link? It now is like a reduced version w/ no comments and only 54 seconds of the still motion pics, no video.
When I click the link, it is only 53 seconds instead of the original 3 minutes or so, none of the action is there.
BushMasterBoy
06-01-2013, 21:21
The ineptness got swept under the rug? Ho hum...
Damn it thought you rehosted this, not that is was one of theirs. I'd have captured a copy otherwise. Hadn't been able to show to head boss and the company firearms guy yet.
http://item.liveleak.com/2/view?i=197_1369425684
Just in case.
Galaxy Note II + Tapatalk 2
Right, but click and look at it. It's only 53 seconds with only the still images. As I've said in my previous 3 posts. The actual shooting is gone/edited out. (Supposed to be a 3min video.) Also noticed, the younger fit guy looks kinda like the one from Jensens to me?
"A trainwreck disguised as a "CQB" class. http://edge.liveleak.com/80281E/u/u/ll2/hd_video_icon.jpg
I think that's what its supposed to be anyhow. You never know"
That's what you call it Kelly? Kind of like a retard calling out another retard... While I agree you shouldn't be calling out someone on something you can't and haven't done yourself.
NCPatrolAR
06-04-2013, 20:03
"A trainwreck disguised as a "CQB" class. http://edge.liveleak.com/80281E/u/u/ll2/hd_video_icon.jpg
I think that's what its supposed to be anyhow. You never know"
That's what you call it Kelly? Kind of like a retard calling out another retard... While I agree you shouldn't be calling out someone on something you can't and haven't done yourself.
Ray Charles could call the class shown in that video a train wreck with ease. Having done or not done something doesnt matter there.
When it comes to Kelly's classes; I audited his last NC class and didnt see issues with the material being taught or anyone straying out of their lane.
<MADDOG>
06-04-2013, 22:56
Ray Charles could call the class shown in that video a train wreck with ease. Having done or not done something doesnt matter there.
When it comes to Kelly's classes; I audited his last NC class and didnt see issues with the material being taught or anyone straying out of their lane.
Nevermind to the train wreck statement (again, I AGREE); your qualifications on CQB, or other qualifications, are what?
Anyway; who the fuck "audits" training? I'm getting older by the day, but I refuse to believe CQB or any other training is called "audited". I reserve that term for tax returns, SoX, etc...
Bailey Guns
06-05-2013, 06:39
Apparently you need to look up the alternative definitions for "audited":
Audited:
2. To attend (a course) without requesting or receiving academic credit.
People "audit" all sorts of courses...most commonly college classes, regardless of what you "refuse to believe".
SuperiorDG
06-05-2013, 06:42
[Pop][Coffee]
NCPatrolAR
06-05-2013, 06:54
your qualifications on CQB, or other qualifications, are what?
Started working CQB while on active duty (2 tours with the 82nd, 1 with 1ID). Been serving high risk search warrants in the law enforcement arena since 2003 and currently have several hundred actual warrant services. Also tasked with doing continuing education for the crew I do warrant services with, teaching building searches to police recruits, teaching active shooter response to in-service dept members, etc etc. I try to catch CQB classes whenever possible in order to see/try new TTPS and have done CQB courses with Larry Vickers, Ken Hackathorn, and various police groups. Need other qualifications?
If we want to talk about pure firearms training; I've logged classes with Larry Vickers, Ken Hackathorn, Scott Reitz, Paul Howe, Pat Rogers, Kyle Defoor, Jason Falla, so on and so forth.
Anyway; who the fuck "audits" training? I'm getting older by the day, but I refuse to believe CQB or any other training is called "audited". I reserve that term for tax returns, SoX, etc...
Auditing in the sense of having a free slot in the class for the purpose of reviewing the material. Typically certificates/prizes for competitions within the class arent awarded when one audits the class.
SuperiorDG
06-05-2013, 08:03
Started working CQB while on active duty (2 tours with the 82nd, 1 with 1ID). Been serving high risk search warrants in the law enforcement arena since 2003 and currently have several hundred actual warrant services. Also tasked with doing continuing education for the crew I do warrant services with, teaching building searches to police recruits, teaching active shooter response to in-service dept members, etc etc. I try to catch CQB classes whenever possible in order to see/try new TTPS and have done CQB courses with Larry Vickers, Ken Hackathorn, and various police groups. Need other qualifications?
If we want to talk about pure firearms training; I've logged classes with Larry Vickers, Ken Hackathorn, Scott Reitz, Paul Howe, Pat Rogers, Kyle Defoor, Jason Falla, so on and so forth.
Auditing in the sense of having a free slot in the class for the purpose of reviewing the material. Typically certificates/prizes for competitions within the class arent awarded when one audits the class.
NCPatrolAR is off to an exciting start. I too have taken one of Kelley's classes and he covered the most important thing I look for in a class, SAFETY. As long as that is covered, learning can take place at all levels. In the OP video, only bad things can happen.
Bailey Guns
06-05-2013, 08:08
In the OP video, only bad things can happen.
Yeah, but if someone gets killed because of poor safety habits or bad tactics at least they died doing something they loved. Thus the rest of us mere mortals shouldn't criticize the video. [/sarcasm]
NCPatrolAR is off to an exciting start. I too have taken one of Kelley's classes and he covered the most important thing I look for in a class, SAFETY. As long as that is covered, learning can take place at all levels. In the OP video, only bad things can happen.
Ditto. I for one am glad to have NCPatrolAR among our ranks and look forward to more of his contributions.
Also, I took the same class as SuperiorDG (a 2-day tactical rifle course) and found his scrutiny on safety was superb. Vocal commands were repeated back from the students, known actions for those commands were established hour-one of day-one, muzzle control, trigger finger control, gun-handling on the line, etc were all clearly upheld by all. If safety is anyone's beef with KellyTTE, they're barking up the wrong tree. As for his real life level of experience, I cannot comment because I do not know, but he was a fine instructor nonetheless, and I came out of the class with increased confidence and recognition of things I needed to work on... so in my mind mission accomplished.
Mick-Boy
06-05-2013, 08:27
When it comes to Kelly's classes; I audited his last NC class and didnt see issues with the material being taught or anyone straying out of their lane.
A man charging folks money to teach something he's never done seems like the very definition of someone being out of their lane.
Like I said in my post above; You don't need to be a gunfighter to teach marksmanship or safe weapons handling... but that's not what I'm talking about here. I'm talking about someone who is charging people to provide professional instruction on a subject he's never done professionally.
NCPatrolAR
06-05-2013, 09:05
A man charging folks money to teach something he's never done seems like the very definition of someone being out of their lane.
Like I said in my post above; You don't need to be a gunfighter to teach marksmanship or safe weapons handling... but that's not what I'm talking about here. I'm talking about someone who is charging people to provide professional instruction on a subject he's never done professionally.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion. From what I saw, Kelly's material comes straight from Paul Howe and didn't contain any kind of freelance material. It's really no different than people at Benning teaching CQB to basic trainees when the instructors themselves had 0 real world application of the material being taught. A person with practical application time can provide insights that the other instructor can't but that doesn't mean he can't teach you the core material (slicing the pie, entry methods for corner/center-fed rooms, PODs, etc).
Mick-Boy
06-05-2013, 09:14
I'm not commenting on your materials Kelly. I'm commenting on the fact that you have no background to be teaching CQB. Period. You can name drop all you like (I've taken classes from MSG Howe too...). The fact that you're trying to charge people to come learn CQB from you strikes me as dishonest at best, flat dangerous at worst.
Obfuscate all you like. Drag up lightfighter, who I choose to train with, the advice your OIC(?) gave you. Whatever. At the end of the day none of that changes the fact that your resume is too shallow to be teaching people gunfighting. You've never done it. You've never been in an organization that does it when it was going on. You've taken some classes from men who actually put it on the line and you've taught AFA Cadets who play gun-games. You should take a hard look at yourself Kelly. Your priorities are skewed.
Started working CQB while on active duty (2 tours with the 82nd, 1 with 1ID). Been serving high risk search warrants in the law enforcement arena since 2003 and currently have several hundred actual warrant services. Also tasked with doing continuing education for the crew I do warrant services with, teaching building searches to police recruits, teaching active shooter response to in-service dept members, etc etc. I try to catch CQB classes whenever possible in order to see/try new TTPS and have done CQB courses with Larry Vickers, Ken Hackathorn, and various police groups. Need other qualifications?
If we want to talk about pure firearms training; I've logged classes with Larry Vickers, Ken Hackathorn, Scott Reitz, Paul Howe, Pat Rogers, Kyle Defoor, Jason Falla, so on and so forth.
I just have to say this- This resume pretty much puts you in the same area as the former SF 18B who taught our CQB/MOUT class I took... granted it was for PSD, not infantry tactics (two very different sets of tactics), but yeah, anyone who has done that much pretty much knows their stuff. If you vouch for Kelly, then I'll have to say "Where do I sign up for one of his classes?" [Beer]
ETA: My question for Mick- I've done CQB training, I've done breach training, I've done PSD training (to include driving, formations, and close protection), but never actually done the actual job.... Let's say I go out and take a bunch of CQB courses, and decide that I'm competent enough on the subject, and can preform adequately. But since I've never actually done it professionally in a real-life environment (training only, mind you) I'll never be qualified to teach it? Just clarify that for me please. Because by that logic, I've never been in a firefight, yet I have spent countless hours training people on the M4/M16 platform for combat scenarios, trained our unit officers on the M9 combat pistol course, and taught PSD operations, but since I have no real world applications I'm not qualified, right?
I'm not particularly educated on CQB tactics, beyond some basics. However, I'm in complete agreement with NCPatrolAR (welcome to the forum, btw - nice to have somebody with your level of experience on board to contribute!) in that real world experience can lend some nice insight, but shouldn't be an absolute pre-requisite to teach. Competency, proficiency, and common sense should be enough.
I'm not particularly educated on CQB tactics, beyond some basics. However, I'm in complete agreement with NCPatrolAR (welcome to the forum, btw - nice to have somebody with your level of experience on board to contribute!) in that real world experience can lend some nice insight, but shouldn't be an absolute pre-requisite to teach. Competency, proficiency, and common sense should be enough.
Agreed, and paying more for the instruction from a highly experienced professional is to be expected. The price KellyTTE charged for his course was very affordable and worth the price paid IMO.
i dont really think the criticism of kellys course should be in this thread....but thats just me
ETA: My question for Mick- I've done CQB training, I've done breach training, I've done PSD training (to include driving, formations, and close protection), but never actually done the actual job.... Let's say I go out and take a bunch of CQB courses, and decide that I'm competent enough on the subject, and can preform adequately. But since I've never actually done it professionally in a real-life environment (training only, mind you) I'll never be qualified to teach it? Just clarify that for me please. Because by that logic, I've never been in a firefight, yet I have spent countless hours training people on the M4/M16 platform for combat scenarios, trained our unit officers on the M9 combat pistol course, and taught PSD operations, but since I have no real world applications I'm not qualified, right?
If you think that, then you don't know a thing about team movements/CQB/urban operations. And that is exactly why you or someone who thinks like that shouldn't be teaching that material, regardless of who they took a course from. That 1 sentiment shows your lack of experience.
If you think that, then you don't know a thing about team movements/CQB/urban operations. And that is exactly why you or someone who thinks like that shouldn't be teaching that material, regardless of who they took a course from. That 1 sentiment shows your lack of experience.
Please explain...
I'm not particularly educated on CQB tactics, beyond some basics. However, I'm in complete agreement with NCPatrolAR (welcome to the forum, btw - nice to have somebody with your level of experience on board to contribute!) in that real world experience can lend some nice insight, but shouldn't be an absolute pre-requisite to teach. Competency, proficiency, and common sense should be enough.
An 11B with only 2 years with a leg unit is not what one would consider experience compared to those who have been fighting these wars for 10+ years. Glad to see him continue his shooting education but experience is not his forte.
If you think "Competency, proficiency, and common sense should be enough," then you clearly don't know what we are talking about. For a static range that is a good start. For anything involving more dynamic movements, much more is needed, especially experience.
Please explain...
That has been explained in detail in this thread and has seemed become the entire point of this thread. Even Kelly pointed that out, although he doesn't follow it himself.
An 11B with only 2 years with a leg unit is not what one would consider experience compared to those who have been fighting these wars for 10+ years. Glad to see him continue his shooting education but experience is not his forte.
If you think "Competency, proficiency, and common sense should be enough," then you clearly don't know what we are talking about. For a static range that is a good start. For anything involving more dynamic movements, much more is needed, especially experience.
So by that logic just doing training with the unit, no matter how extensive, then one is not competent and aptly able to perform unless they have actually experience? Hmm... that's kind of faulty logic there. Please, try again.
To that I mean, and in response to your latest post, you are saying without actual, real world experience (meaning real bad guys, real bullets, real actual combat/breaching) that one is not experienced or proficient enough to teach the subject. Am I correct? I don't want to put words in your mouth. If that is the case then we shouldn't allow anyone to go into combat unless they've had actual combat experience. But in order to have combat experience you have to go into combat, but if you won't be allowed into combat without experience then you'll never gain combat experience and thus will never go into combat. See, doesn't make sense does it?
NCPatrolAR
06-05-2013, 11:59
An 11B with only 2 years with a leg unit is not what one would consider experience compared to those who have been fighting these wars for 10+ years. Glad to see him continue his shooting education but experience is not his forte
is this referencing my experience?
So by that logic just doing training with the unit, no matter how extensive, then one is not competent and aptly able to perform unless they have actually experience? Hmm... that's kind of faulty logic there. Please, try again.
To that I mean, and in response to your latest post, you are saying without actual, real world experience (meaning real bad guys, real bullets, real actual combat/breaching) that one is not experienced or proficient enough to teach the subject. Am I correct? I don't want to put words in your mouth. If that is the case then we shouldn't allow anyone to go into combat unless they've had actual combat experience. But in order to have combat experience you have to go into combat, but if you won't be allowed into combat without experience then you'll never gain combat experience and thus will never go into combat. See, doesn't make sense does it?
Again, you missed the point. Go back and read the thread.
Again, you missed the point. Go back and read the thread.
I believe I got the point... and I quote:
"If you think "Competency, proficiency, and common sense should be enough," then you clearly don't know what we are talking about. For a static range that is a good start. For anything involving more dynamic movements, much more is needed, especially experience."
No matter how many times one goes through a shoot house it will never be enough without actual experience. At least that's what I take away from your meaning, and remember kids, perception is reality.
I believe I got the point... and I quote:
"If you think "Competency, proficiency, and common sense should be enough," then you clearly don't know what we are talking about. For a static range that is a good start. For anything involving more dynamic movements, much more is needed, especially experience."
No matter how many times one goes through a shoot house it will never be enough without actual experience. At least that's what I take away from your meaning, and remember kids, perception is reality.
It takes more than a few days, or years even, to learn those principles. Anyone who thinks they have "mastered" or are experts in that are often proven wrong when a fatal mistake is made. There are very few "experts" in that arena and none of them consider themselves such.
It takes more than a few days, or years even, to learn those principles. Anyone who thinks they have "mastered" or are experts in that are often proven wrong when a fatal mistake is made. There are very few "experts" in that arena and none of them consider themselves such.
I didn't say that one would be come an expert in a few days or even years- I have only done a few instances of it in a training scenario and I wouldn't consider myself proficient enough to train the subject, but who's to say one day I might become proficient enough to train, even though I've never kicked a door down with real bad guys on the other side?
NCPatrolAR
06-05-2013, 13:13
Based off the silence, I'll take it that " 2 years in a leg unit" comment was directed at someone else in the thread
strm_trpr
06-05-2013, 14:05
[Pop] This thread is getting good.
Mick-Boy
06-05-2013, 15:22
ETA: My question for Mick- I've done CQB training, I've done breach training, I've done PSD training (to include driving, formations, and close protection), but never actually done the actual job.... Let's say I go out and take a bunch of CQB courses, and decide that I'm competent enough on the subject, and can preform adequately. But since I've never actually done it professionally in a real-life environment (training only, mind you) I'll never be qualified to teach it? Just clarify that for me please. Because by that logic, I've never been in a firefight, yet I have spent countless hours training people on the M4/M16 platform for combat scenarios, trained our unit officers on the M9 combat pistol course, and taught PSD operations, but since I have no real world applications I'm not qualified, right?
How many weekend, civilian classes would I have to take before you'd take me seriously as a military intel guy? No deployments. No MOS school. Just paid out of pocket training. How many would it take?
To answer your question; From my perspective, you'd be veering dangerously close to poser territory as soon as you started trying to charge people a fee to learn from you as some sort of Subject Matter Expert on combat operations/CQB/PSD/etc. if you haven't actually *DONE* that for a living.
I posted this in post #138 of this thread
To properly instruct someone in an advanced skill like CQB, you need to be a subject matter expert (with the depth of experience that implies) and be able to deconstruct everything to its most basic components.
Generally that means that the instructor has received formal instruction in CQB operations at a MIL or LEO unit, trained for and conducted CQB operations and finally instructed students in CQB within the framework of a unit that has established and successful SOPs.
There is a difference between someone who is teaching in a Mil/LEO setting because that's one of their assigned tasks and a man who is marketing himself as such an SME that people should pay to train with them.
Based off the silence, I'll take it that " 2 years in a leg unit" comment was directed at someone else in the thread
Opps. I missed it. No, it was at you. Yes I know you were in more than 2 years but a basic leg 11B is nothing to get all excited about these days. I know you're an law enforcement officer too (so was dickbag from Gunsmoke). With your busy training schedule, how do you find the time to do all these high risk warrants? We know Kelly invited you over to bail him out of his hole. Anyone that endorses someone not qualified to teach and run a live fire, is not someone or an organization I will support not to mention the loss of credibility.
Any sectors and/or industries will have little to no experience as an expert.
Some of them still do good job teaching. Some of them do shitty.
Some of the "Expert" who has tons of experience does shitty job even with years of experience.
PGA tour player may have tons of experience, but might be shitty as PGA instructor.
I've seen a guy who has massive amount of experience in telecommunication as a(n) officer/executive, but cannot teach the damn thing at a grad level.
I've seen an intellectual property and patent attorney who has great amount of experience there, but has no experience in labor law do an excellent job teaching.
How about teachers? Tons of experience in Electrical engineering is teaching an AP Physics C classes in high school. He has absolute no experience in some physics labs. However, he was a great instructor for highschool. He is a "professional" teacher.
I don't think some of these instructor are teaching some crazy ass extraction nor how to jump off of 90,000ft space ship to sea level.
NOW, if an average joe instructor claims that he took out 5 nuclear submarines with a single shot from his carbine, he needs his head checked out.
hurley842002
06-05-2013, 16:26
Any sectors and/or industries will have little to no experience as an expert.
Some of them still do good job teaching. Some of them do shitty.
Some of the "Expert" who has tons of experience does shitty job even with years of experience.
PGA tour player may have tons of experience, but might be shitty as PGA instructor.
I've seen a guy who has massive amount of experience in telecommunication as a(n) officer/executive, but cannot teach the damn thing at a grad level.
I've seen an intellectual property and patent attorney who has great amount of experience there, but has no experience in labor law do an excellent job teaching.
How about teachers? Tons of experience in Electrical engineering is teaching an AP Physics C classes in high school. He has absolute no experience in some physics labs. However, he was a great instructor for highschool. He is a "professional" teacher.
I don't think some of these instructor are teaching some crazy ass extraction nor how to jump off of 90,000ft space ship to sea level.
NOW, if an average joe instructor claims that he took out 5 nuclear submarines with a single shot from his carbine, he needs his head checked out.
Good post!
It seems like part of the importance of first hand experience is that some of those experiences just can't be taught in a class room.
How many weekend, civilian classes would I have to take before you'd take me seriously as a military intel guy? No deployments. No MOS school. Just paid out of pocket training. How many would it take?
To answer your question; From my perspective, you'd be veering dangerously close to poser territory as soon as you started trying to charge people a fee to learn from you as some sort of Subject Matter Expert on combat operations/CQB/PSD/etc. if you haven't actually *DONE* that for a living.
I posted this in post #138 of this thread
There is a difference between someone who is teaching in a Mil/LEO setting because that's one of their assigned tasks and a man who is marketing himself as such an SME that people should pay to train with them.
Oh you're comparing apples to oranges? If you had just said Intel guy then I'd probably ask if you used the same systems, TTPs, and operational areas as I, then it wouldn't matter. I would compare that to "Would you trust a USMC intelligence officer as much as your fellow Army? Different training and all?" Yes, yes I would. Or how about CIA? Yep! Terrible example, because I can get firearms training almost anywhere and depending on the instructor, you can get good training anywhere. Military specific training can only be offered by military- or government. However, things like CQB (which are not just done by military but also can be performed by LE, PMCs, etc.) can be trained outside the military and you need not be a combat vet to be a subject matter expert. I would consider one of the instructors who taught me how to shoot the M16 (not a combat vet, surprisingly enough) a subject matter expert- he had qualified expert every single time for 17 years straight, worked with the rifle in all manner of training scenarios, and yet not a single deployment between 1989 and 2006- not to mention could take the thing apart and put it back together perfectly with very little hassle, tell you everything you wanted to know from maximum effective range, to muzzle velocity with GI ball 5.56 ammo. I on the other hand do not tell people I'm an SME unless I actually am (and to be honest, I really don't consider myself an SME in ANYTHING).
There is also a burden of responsibility on the person taking the instruction, to utilize it as framework upon which to build his own "real world" practical experience. You can learn advanced skills from simply reading a book, without any form of instructor. Are you an expert then? No. Do you have the basic understanding necessary to increase your experience? Yes.
If somebody were teaching these classes and promising that the pupils would be experts on the other side, I'd take umbrage. But they're not - all they're teaching is the skillset.
Expertise comes from a mix of personal experience and a continuous learning process. I don't take someone teaching the classes on basic concepts/skills, as some claim that they're the be all/end all of everything related to the subject. Just that they're proficient in the skillset and theory.
NCPatrolAR
06-05-2013, 17:22
Opps. I missed it. No, it was at you.
Well arent you just a cute little ball of sunshine.
Yes I know you were in more than 2 years but a basic leg 11B is nothing to get all excited about these days.
Who is claiming that there is something to be excited about over my time in the service? Training as a whole sucked while I was in and I didnt start to gain real levels of ability in topics other than patrolling through the woods until I hit the private/LE sector.
With your busy training schedule, how do you find the time to do all these high risk warrants
Well, serving warrants is a part of my career, so it would make sense that I have time to do them since I've been employed by the same agency for the past 11 years. So do the math..... employed for 11 years, assigned to a street crimes unit for 7 years, agency has 1800 officers, and we serve an area with a population around 970k...... all of that equals plenty of time during the work week to knock down warrant services in addition to our other tasks. And we even manage to squeeze training days in there. [panic]
When it comes to my training schedule; I take classes when the opportunity presents itself. Since most classes are held on the week end, I usually dont have to take vacation time unless its a week-long course. Also, factor in that I've trained with listed instructors since 2004. Its not like I hit a class by all of them last weekend; but you already knew that.
We know Kelly invited you over to bail him out of his hole.
You just continue to hit that fail button dont you? [fail]
I'm here because of the video involving Anthony and Colorado Shooting Sports. I first saw the video on Facebook and after Anthony blocked my comments from his page, I started looking for various places where the video was being talked about. I even started my own discussions about it on M4Carbine.net and several other places. If I was here to bail Kelly out wouldnt it make sense that all of my posts would be towards that task? Instead, my first post was answering someone's question about what was wrong with the video/what could be done differently. Unlike you, I was actually trying to be helpful in the discussion. When you decided to talk about Kelly's classes I decided to chime in since I have actually attended one and have a base of knowledge to form an educated opinion on the class (aka I'm not a "that was my first class and it was awesome" person).
Anyone that endorses someone not qualified to teach and run a live fire, is not someone or an organization I will support not to mention the loss of credibility.
And the endorsement of someone that sees fit to do nothing but insult others should be heeded why?
Oh you're comparing apples to oranges? If you had just said Intel guy then I'd probably ask if you used the same systems, TTPs, and operational areas as I, then it wouldn't matter. I would compare that to "Would you trust a USMC intelligence officer as much as your fellow Army? Different training and all?" Yes, yes I would. Or how about CIA? Yep! Terrible example, because I can get firearms training almost anywhere and depending on the instructor, you can get good training anywhere. Military specific training can only be offered by military- or government. However, things like CQB (which are not just done by military but also can be performed by LE, PMCs, etc.) can be trained outside the military and you need not be a combat vet to be a subject matter expert. I would consider one of the instructors who taught me how to shoot the M16 (not a combat vet, surprisingly enough) a subject matter expert- he had qualified expert every single time for 17 years straight, worked with the rifle in all manner of training scenarios, and yet not a single deployment between 1989 and 2006- not to mention could take the thing apart and put it back together perfectly with very little hassle, tell you everything you wanted to know from maximum effective range, to muzzle velocity with GI ball 5.56 ammo. I on the other hand do not tell people I'm an SME unless I actually am (and to be honest, I really don't consider myself an SME in ANYTHING).
Talk about comparing apples to oranges...that is the exact point. Basic fundamentals and team tactics require different levels of expertise. The more dynamic the training, the more expertise and experience necessary to have a safe training environment and successfully teach the material. No one is saying that combat experience is needed to teach rifle fundamentals. Years of experience, either overseas or CONUS in real unscripted situitations is necessary to be a safe and effective teacher of CQB. It's not that hard of a concept to understand. Nurses don't teach neurosurgery, Anthony (and Kelly) have no business teaching CQB.
I'm here because of the video involving Anthony and Colorado Shooting Sports. I first saw the video on Facebook and after Anthony blocked my comments from his page, I started looking for various places where the video was being talked about. I even started my own discussions about it on M4Carbine.net and several other places. If I was here to bail Kelly out wouldnt it make sense that all of my posts would be towards that task? Instead, my first post was answering someone's question about what was wrong with the video/what could be done differently. Unlike you, I was actually trying to be helpful in the discussion. When you decided to talk about Kelly's classes I decided to chime in since I have actually attended one and have a base of knowledge to form an educated opinion on the class (aka I'm not a "that was my first class and it was awesome" person).
And the endorsement of someone that sees fit to do nothing but insult others should be heeded why?
OK, you state that you're not here to defend Kelly. Then I was wrong. You did however defend him teaching material outside his scope (post #172) and as a LE officer should see the risk of negligence associated with that. Do you have non qualified officers teaching OC, radar, tactics, driving, etc...? As far as me insulting others...I call BS where I see it. I'm not tactful to those who are constantly full of shit. If you want someone to make you feel good...go to a shrink.
NCPatrolAR
06-05-2013, 20:01
You did however defend him teaching material outside his scope (post #172) and as a LE officer should see the risk of negligence associated with that.
As I said, there was nothing taught in the two days that was unsafe, outside the norm, etc from other single person, entry level courses I've seen. If there was anything negligent that was occurring I would have put a stop to it.
Do you have non qualified officers teaching OC, radar, tactics, driving, etc...?
Those of us that teach those topics do so after having completed instructor training courses for each topic in question. So in theory, a person could teach a cqb class if he had an instructor certificate for cqb that the agency recognized
As far as me insulting others...I call BS where I see it.
You must be confusing what you see in the mirror with what you see on the forum.
If you want someone to make you feel good...go to a shrink.
I'm not looking for someone to make me feel good; but I do expect some degree of professionalism from someone that runs their own training company. And if someone needs to see a shrink its most likely you with the way you behave
lowspeed_highdrag
06-05-2013, 20:19
This is a shitty thread with shitty members shitting on some stand up guys. No thanks for me.
NCPatrolAR, welcome aboard brother.
This is a shitty thread with shitty members shitting on some stand up guys. No thanks for me.
NCPatrolAR, welcome aboard brother.
Agreed. Things got really nasty and abrasive for no good reason. I'm done with this thread. Sorry this was the welcome the new member got. We're not all like that.
lowspeed_highdrag
06-05-2013, 20:56
Agreed. Things got really nasty and abrasive for no good reason. I'm done with this thread. Sorry this was the welcome the new member got. We're not all like that.
For those of us that are M4C members, we can vouch that NCPatrolAR woul be a fine addition to the forum and a wealth of knowledge. Just saying...
Sharpienads
06-05-2013, 20:56
I'm surprised this thread is still going. It got way off the original topic, a topic that I thought we would all agree on.
lot of purse swinging[handbags] and dead horse beating [beatdeadhorse] going on around here .....
oh yeah
TESTICLES ...... that is all . [Coffee]
[werdo]
you guys should meet and roe sham bo to see who is the the baddest or you could have a dance off ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTWQxCoYgXI
hurley842002
06-05-2013, 21:25
Don't know how to imbed this but....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcIjFeWE4fE&feature=youtube_gdata_player
http://youtu.be/WcVI64IbkIs
Awww, did I hurt someone's feelings? Does owning a training company automatically require me to bow down? F*CK NO. I've owned a company, it sucks. There are lots of people who own "training" companies who don't know shit (the original topic of this thread if I'm not mistaken). You think I'm an ass for how I treat people who are knowingly risking the safety of their students to make a few bucks...then get out of this thread. I know who NC is on M4C and he has a good rapport based upon his use of common sense and professionalism, yet to be seen here and will be responded to in similar fashion if it does show up. You say you aren't defending someone yet you do, and then say they are "in theory" qualified to teach something out of their scope. Let me know when "in theory" holds up in court when someone is seriously hurt or killed due to negligence on a range. Until then, there are too many people on here chiming in who have no f*cking clue what is being discussed nor the and are supporting severe discredit to the entire shooting community. If you feel comfortable with their inexperience in that subject, then by all means take the class and roll the dice. I, and many others who do this for a living, refuse to support this sort of jackassery. The Applied CQB Concepts (ACC) course is designed to introduce capable shooters to beginner, intermediate and advanced CQB concepts..."in only 3 days?!? Really? Anyone who can teach "advanced CQB concepts" in only 3 days must be a god among mortals...or a complete fraud.
hghclsswhitetrsh
06-05-2013, 22:40
Did I accidentally log into arfcom??? WTF.
Did I accidentally log into arfcom??? WTF.
Been a moth to a flame here. [Train] Not sure WTF this hasn't been shut down.
You guys have feelings? Hmmm.
Look,this is really simple. Do you have to have done something to do it? No, of course not, we all start somewhere. Do you have to have done something in order to teach it? Yes, otherwise you are just spouting some shit you heard.
Bad information can have deadly consequences. Ask the guys here that do CQB for a living, bad info and practices will get you killed.
For the rest of us let's try to remember that sticking feathers up your butt doesn't make you a chicken.
I think that was the point of the original video.
Bad information can have deadly consequences. Ask the guys here that do CQB for a living, bad info and practices will get you killed.
They are being told this by "the guys who do this for a living." Money seems to trump common sense among some of the instructors on this forum.
NCPatrolAR
06-06-2013, 07:17
Awww, did I hurt someone's feelings?
[facepalm]
Does owning a training company automatically require me to bow down? F*CK NO.
[dig] Being professional in your actions with others doesnt mean you have to "bow down" to anyone.
You think I'm an ass for how I treat people who are knowingly risking the safety of their students to make a few bucks
Let's see; you decide to make an ass out of yourself in some lame attempt to discredit my expereince and you cite safety concerns with a class that you've never taken part in, seen video of, etc.
...then get out of this thread.
Sorry sunshine. I'm content to stay here and watch you continue to make an ass of yourself. And you're doing an outstanding job at it.
I know who NC is on M4C and he has a good rapport based upon his use of common sense and professionalism, yet to be seen here and will be responded to in similar fashion if it does show up.
You have 0 room to be talking to anyone about professionalism.
You say you aren't defending someone yet you do
Negative Ghostrider. Your initial claim was that I was here solely to bail Kelly out which was incorrect. I never said that I wouldnt defend him, or anyone else, against some baseless claim.
and then say they are "in theory" qualified to teach something out of their scope. Let me know when "in theory" holds up in court when someone is seriously hurt or killed due to negligence on a range.
[fail]
Once again, I responded to your question about what it takes to teach people in a LE setting. Want to teach OC use; get a recognized OC instructor certificate. Want to teach driving, get a recognized driver instructor certificate. Want to teach firearms; wait for it......... get a recognized firearms trainer certificate. Negliegence on the range/in the house can occur regardless of the level of expereince that the instructor has. Negligence is limited by sticking to strict, well-vetted and established safety SOPs that are a part of the lesson plan that the course is being taught from.
I, and many others who do this for a living, refuse to support this sort of jackassery.
Afraid its going to impact your business?
The Applied CQB Concepts (ACC) course is designed to introduce capable shooters to beginner, intermediate and advanced CQB concepts..."in only 3 days?!? Really? Anyone who can teach "advanced CQB concepts" in only 3 days must be a god among mortals...or a complete fraud.
Or someone who is simply using marketing to get people in the door. We all know that no one wants to do a "basic" class, so the more business-inclined person will put an intermediate or advanced descriptor in there even when the material being covered is still basic. Business 101, but again you already knew that.
NCPatrolAR
06-06-2013, 07:28
You guys have feelings? Hmmm.
Look,this is really simple. Do you have to have done something to do it? No, of course not, we all start somewhere. Do you have to have done something in order to teach it? Yes, otherwise you are just spouting some shit you heard.
Bad information can have deadly consequences. Ask the guys here that do CQB for a living, bad info and practices will get you killed.
Let me put this out here. Until a few years into OEF, CQB (hell, even combat in general) expereince in the Army (at least) was very thin. It wasnt uncommon for soldiers teaching CQB, or any other combat-related taks, to not have any practical (aka done it for real) expereince in the material being taught. So, how did these individuals teach the material for years? It was because they were teaching off of vetted, established lesson plans. Are you going to be able to bring people a high level this way? Not in most cases but you can bring people to a certain point.
TheBelly
06-06-2013, 07:36
I remember very clearly that an old Ops SGM of mine had recommended Art. 15 NJP for a firearms safety violation.... ANY firearms safety violation.
He was more hi-speed than me (he came to us from USASOC) and was slightly draconian about things. Not saying its a bad thing.
HoneyBadger
06-06-2013, 07:52
Hey NCPatrolAR,
Welcome to the forum. Sorry you're being treated so poorly... Every group has a few that just can't play nice. Please stick around - I think you'll find that most of us are quite amiable!
Coloccw, If you're trying to defend your business strategy, I don't think this is the right forum and I don't think you're winning yourself any new customers here. Personal attacks on your competition is lowlife politics, not a good way to promote your business.
If you're NOT trying to defend your business strategy, you are definitely trying to denigrate someone else's business strategy. Again... this is not the right forum for that.
I don't know if there is any productive discussion still to be had, but if this thread doesn't get back on topic immediately, the Gods, I mean Mods, should close it. [Flower]
Mick-Boy
06-06-2013, 07:59
I enlisted in the USMC prior to 9/11. It was the same there. Lessons were taught based on institutional knowledge and 2nd, 3rd, and 4th hand experience.
However a) We've been involved in shooting wars for a bit over a decade now. That changes expectations a bit. b) We're not talking about people assigned to teach a topic by their chain of command, these are people who are selling their knowledge to others.
Is it out of line to expect that they have first hand knowledge and experience in the subject? I don't think so.
I've been carrying a rifle for a living since I enlisted at 17. To date I've done twenty-something deployments to Kosovo, Africa and the Middle East. My thoughts on this topic as a professional gun-toter haven't been changed here and they aren't likely to.
I've said my piece in this thread. You boys train with who you like.
strm_trpr
06-06-2013, 08:12
Most of my firearms instructors in the LE field have never been in a firefight. Does that make their instruction invalid?
I think we're done here. Thanks for everyone's opinions.
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