Shipping Handgun with FFL 03

[generalmeow]

I've got an out of state buyer for a C&R handgun, and he would like for me to ship it to his local FFL. I have my 03 FFL (C&R). The buyer is paying for shipping, but I told him I'd put an effort into finding out the least expensive way to do it.

I understand that I can ship UPS/Fedex, but you have to ship overnight because it's a handgun (not because the law says so, because it's company policy). There is a ton of conflicting information out there regarding shipping via USPS. Some say you can with an FFL03, some say you can't. USPS would be far less expensive. Does anybody know for certain?

If USPS isn't an option, are there any big boy FFL's on here in the Aurora/Centennial areas that would ship this for me via USPS, and what would you charge for the service?

[Circuits]

FFL 03 cannot ship handguns via USPS.

PS Form 1508, used by regular dealers, requires the statutory declaration that the shipper is "a manufacturer of firearms or a bona fide dealer therein".

As 03 is a collector's license, not a business license, the collector is neither a manufacturer or a "bona fide dealer", and does not qualify for the PS 1508 handgun shipping exception.

I'll leave the dealer shipment part of your question for FFLs more local to you to answer, if they wish.

[generalmeow]

Circuits, do you know that for sure? The USPS regs seem to indicate otherwise:

But it's still not crystal clear. It seems like it's saying I can use USPS to mail a C&R handgun to another FFL 03. I would assume then that I can mail it to any FFL greater than 03 as well, but it doesn't say that.

http://about.usps.com/postal-bulletin/2011/pb22321/html/updt_001.htm (http://about.usps.com/postal-bulletin/2011/pb22321/html/updt_001.htm)


12.1.2Handguns

[Revise 12.1.2 as follows:]
Handguns and other firearms capable of being concealed on the person are nonmailable unless mailed between the parties listed in 12.1.3 and 12.1.5 after the filing of an affi­davit or statement required by 12.1.4 and 12.1.6, and are subject to the following:
a. Firearms meeting the definition of a handgun under 12.1.1b, and the definition of curios or relics under 27 CFR 478.11 may be mailed between curio and relic collectors only when those firearms also meet the definition of an antique firearm under 12.1.1g.


12.1.1Definitions
The terms used in this standard are defined as follows:
[Delete current items 12.1.1a and 12.1.1g in their entirety and replace with the following.]
a.Firearm means any device, including a starter gun, which will, or is designed to, or may readily be convert­ed to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive; the frame or receiver of any such weapon; any firearm muffler or firearm silencer; or any destructive device; but the term shall not include an antique firearm.
b.Firearm frame or receiver is the part of a firearm that provides housing for the hammer, bolt or breech­block, and firing mechanism and that is usually threaded at its forward portion to receive the barrel.
c.Handgun (including pistols and revolvers) means any firearm that has a short stock and is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand and subject to 12.1.1a, or a combination of parts from which a handgun can be assembled.
d.Other firearms capable of being concealed on the person include, but are not limited to, short-barreled shotguns and short-barreled rifles.
e.Short-barreled shotgun means a shotgun that has one or more barrels less than 18 inches long. The term short-barreled rifle means a rifle that has one or more barrels that are less than 16 inches long. These definitions include any weapon made from a shotgun or rifle, whether by alteration, modification, or other­wise, if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches. A short-barreled shot­gun or rifle of greater dimension may be regarded as nonmailable when it has characteristics to allow con­cealment on the person.
f.Federal Firearms Licensee (FFL) manufacturer, deal­er, or importer of firearms means a manufacturer, dealer, or importer duly licensed by the Bureau of Al­cohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) under Chapter 44, Title 18, United States Code (U.S.C.).
g.Curio and relic collector means an individual licensed by ATF to transfer or receive only those firearms de­fined as curios or relics by ATF under Title 27, Code of Federal Regulations (CFR), section 478.11.

12.1.1.G doesn't directly define an antique firearm either, but I know this handgun is defined as C&R by the listed ATF code. But it's not defined as an antique firearm under the listed ATF code.

I assume that whoever wrote the USPS code doesn't know that there's a difference, as they seem to interchange C&R with Antique.

EDIT - now that I'm looking through this again, I'm not so sure they don't know the difference. I think they mean you can ship a C&R handgun, but it also has to be an antique handgun, which by the ATF definition pretty much eliminates any popular C&R handguns. Antique, by their definition, means you basically can't get ammo for it anymore through commercial channels.

[10mm-man]

I'm not an expert, nor claim to be one. I am not going to look up the regs, but I thought anyone could ship a gun to another FFL (Non c&r) through the mail. I assume the other FFL isn't a C&R??

Either way, have him send me his FFL - ffl@ddarmory.com I'll send him mine. You box it up, get it ready and I'll go to the Post office with you. Since I am not taking possession I assume, everything will be ok? Your shipping it to him, just using me as the FFL. Should be ok???? Sure there are some experts on here who will chime in, but until then i will call my ATF liaison.

I'll see if I need to log it, or if it's considered a private mailing.

[generalmeow]

I'm not an expert, nor claim to be one. I am not going to look up the regs, but I thought anyone could ship a gun to another FFL (Non c&r) through the mail. I assume the other FFL isn't a C&R??

Either way, have him send me his FFL - ffl@ddarmory.com I'll send him mine. You box it up, get it ready and I'll go to the Post office with you. Since I am not taking possession I assume, everything will be ok? Your shipping it to him, just using me as the FFL. Should be ok???? Sure there are some experts on here who will chime in, but until then i will call my ATF liaison.

I'll see if I need to log it, or if it's considered a private mailing.

Thanks 10mm-man! Where are you located?

[Circuits]

Circuits, do you know that for sure? The USPS regs seem to indicate otherwise:

But it's still not crystal clear. It seems like it's saying I can use USPS to mail a C&R handgun to another FFL 03. I would assume then that I can mail it to any FFL greater than 03 as well, but it doesn't say that.

http://about.usps.com/postal-bulletin/2011/pb22321/html/updt_001.htm (http://about.usps.com/postal-bulletin/2011/pb22321/html/updt_001.htm)

...

I assume that whoever wrote the USPS code doesn't know that there's a difference, as they seem to interchange C&R with Antique.

EDIT - now that I'm looking through this again, I'm not so sure they don't know the difference. I think they mean you can ship a C&R handgun, but it also has to be an antique handgun, which by the ATF definition pretty much eliminates any popular C&R handguns. Antique, by their definition, means you basically can't get ammo for it anymore through commercial channels.

The PS Form 1508 (required document to ship handguns USPS) seems to indicate strongly otherwise - but the regs you quoted differ from the wording on the 1508. So no, I'm no longer sure if C&R are allowed to ship C&R to other C&R (or otherwise) through the mail or not. If 10mm-man can hook you up, that's probably the least risk and ambiguity.

[10mm-man]

i am in Greenwood village; will you look up the regs on an FFL 07 sending C&R? I thought I read i could and didn't need to handle it like a regular firearms (logging it in my books) but not sure. I need to know the regs and this would be your duty to show me. Or I need to wait to hear back from my liaison, I am to busy with other stuff to do it right now.

Thanks,

[BlasterBob]

I thought I read i could and didn't need to handle it like a regular firearms (logging it in my books) but not sure.
Thanks,

I shouldn't chime in here because I know very little about this stuff but it would seem that when the FFL dealer on the receiving end of the transaction logs it into his book, he will have to show who he received it from and that'd be the FFL who made the initial shipment for the seller. If the BATF would decide to backtrack/trace that firearm starting with the receiving FFL dealers book, then it would sure seem that it had better have been logged in and logged out of the sending FFL dealers book too. IMHO

[generalmeow]

I shouldn't chime in here because I know very little about this stuff but it would seem that when the FFL dealer on the receiving end of the transaction logs it into his book, he will have to show who he received it from and that'd be the FFL who made the initial shipment for the seller. If the BATF would decide to backtrack/trace that firearm starting with the receiving FFL dealers book, then it would sure seem that it had better have been logged in and logged out of the sending FFL dealers book too. IMHO

Yup, this is what i just learned. 10mm man, I don't want to put you out. It sounds like having you actually ship it isn't a big deal at all (just one small form to fill out), but you don't have to go to all of the trouble of doing this for me. Thanks anyways!

[10mm-man]

I shouldn't chime in here because I know very little about this stuff but it would seem that when the FFL dealer on the receiving end of the transaction logs it into his book, he will have to show who he received it from and that'd be the FFL who made the initial shipment for the seller. If the BATF would decide to backtrack/trace that firearm starting with the receiving FFL dealers book, then it would sure seem that it had better have been logged in and logged out of the sending FFL dealers book too. IMHO


C&R are handled different, that is why I ask. Sound like General did some investigating. I don't deal in C&R so clueless... The other reason is you do not have to be an FFL to ship a gun(that you own) to another FFL, so why would you have to to ship a C&R? As a C&R dealer do you have to maintain a logbook? If so then yes, you would have to log to DD Armory and then DDArmory to your FFL we would ship to. Or is the C&R handgun owned by you personally?

[generalmeow]

C&R are handled different, that is why I ask. Sound like General did some investigating. I don't deal in C&R so clueless... The other reason is you do not have to be an FFL to ship a gun(that you own) to another FFL, so why would you have to to ship a C&R? As a C&R dealer do you have to maintain a logbook? If so then yes, you would have to log to DD Armory and then DDArmory to your FFL we would ship to. Or is the C&R handgun owned by you personally?

I do have my FFL 03, it is owned by me personally, and I can ship it to any FFL, as could anyone ship it to any FFL (even without having your own FFL). The difference between you and me is the cost. You can ship USPS, which costs $5.80. I think I have to ship UPS or Fedex, and they require overnight shipping. So probably $60+.

If you can do this for me, and want to charge a fee for your time, it will still come in below the $60. I don't want to put you out, so if you don't want to go to the trouble I understand.

[10mm-man]

Send me a PM. I am not convinced I need to log it. I am not recieving it, just using my license to fullfill the USPS requirement not the ATF requirement. I would say we ship it from you to the FFL and ill go down with a copy of my license to the USPS. If they require my company name on the box then yes I'll log it.

Waiting to hear from my ATF laison, (who will prob tell me I need to recieve and log anyway)but we shall see.

Do you know if that requirement (of an FFL having to ship) is a USPS requirement or ATF requirement?

[generalmeow]

Send me a PM. I am not convinced I need to log it. I am not recieving it, just using my license to fullfill the USPS requirement not the ATF requirement. I would say we ship it from you to the FFL and ill go down with a copy of my license to the USPS. If they require my company name on the box then yes I'll log it.

Waiting to hear from my ATF laison, (who will prob tell me I need to recieve and log anyway)but we shall see.

Do you know if that requirement (of an FFL having to ship) is a USPS requirement or ATF requirement?

I believe it must be a USPS requirement, as you can use private carriers without an FFL. If it were an ATF requirement, it would apply to all shipping.

[BlasterBob]

Waiting to hear from my ATF laison, (who will prob tell me I need to recieve and log anyway)but we shall see.


You can just bet that the BATF person that you contact will advise you that if you are going to be involved like this, you as a FFL holder WILL need to log it in and log it out to the receiving FFL person. I hope the response you receive will be posted so we can all learn what "they" want/expect.

[BlasterBob]

As a C&R dealer do you have to maintain a logbook?

YES, kinda similar to the book maintained by reguar 01 FFLs!!

And, actually a C&R holder is NOT considered a "dealer".

I sure do not want to appear to be a "know it all" as I just do NOT want to see any fellow CO AR15 Shooters members get in trouble with the BATF people because of some infraction of one of their requirements/laws.

[10mm-man]

You can just bet that the BATF person that you contact will advise you that if you are going to be involved like this, you as a FFL holder WILL need to log it in and log it out to the receiving FFL person. I hope the response you receive will be posted so we can all learn what "they" want/expect.

Sure, i'll post it.


YES, kinda similar to the book maintained by reguar 01 FFLs!!

And, actually a C&R holder is NOT considered a "dealer".

I sure do not want to appear to be a "know it all" as I just do NOT want to see any fellow CO AR15 Shooters members get in trouble with the BATF people because of some infraction of one of their requirements/laws.

Since you know- Why not post the regs that cover this? Like I said, I don't have time; so if you know, please feel free to post em up. Also, not going to get into any trouble- I follow the rules. But I also don't just make shit up, for the shear fact of making more regulations than exist. Like I said, I have a call into the ATF for clear direction because- "i'm not a know it all" like you! [ROFL1][ROFL2] Just playing Blaster.....[Beer]

Thanks,

[def90]

How much time are you going to waste to try to save a couple $$. You could have already shipped it and be spending your time working on something else that will make you money.

[BlasterBob]

I also don't just make shit up, for the shear fact of making more regulations than exist. Like I said, I have a call into the ATF for clear direction because- "i'm not a know it all" like you! [ROFL1][ROFL2] Just playing Blaster.....[Beer]

Thanks,

Well, I'll learn to keep my bull shit thoughts to myself from now on. I didn't intend to make it appear that I was attempting to make up more regulations than exist. Sorry.

[10mm-man]

Well, I'll learn to keep my bull shit thoughts to myself from now on. I didn't intend to make it appear that I was attempting to make up more regulations than exist. Sorry.

Not what I was saying..... mis-interpreted my friend [Beer]. .. Hope you don't think I was implying you were. Think you were just discussing the situation and wanting to know and also offering your $.02.

Friends?[Beer]

[10mm-man]

Blaster- your right! Have to R&D it..... Per ATF

I don't really have the time to do it meow, hence why I stopped doing transfers.

[BlasterBob]

Not what I was saying..... mis-interpreted my friend [Beer]. .. Hope you don't think I was implying you were. Think you were just discussing the situation and wanting to know and also offering your $.02.

Friends?[Beer]

Sure..
[Beer]

[generalmeow]

Blaster- your right! Have to R&D it..... Per ATF

I don't really have the time to do it meow, hence why I stopped doing transfers.

No problem, I understand completely. Thanks anyways.