View Full Version : 1224 and magazine extensions for mags that were already >15 capacity
.40isthenew.45
06-04-2013, 08:22
Other than "I will not comply" what say you to the purchase and installation of magazine extensions on mags that are already greater than 15 capacity?
Say I want to add a +2 baseplate to a Glock 17, 17 round mag that I owned prior to July 1. Could I order a +2 and install it?
What about extensions that are themselves greater than 15 rounds as in a +18 nordic extension for a PMag.
My reading of 1224 says to me that I can't make a new configuration that holds more than 15 but is silent on modifying one that was already greater than 15. Is that wishful thinking on my part?
Aloha_Shooter
06-04-2013, 09:08
I would say you should consult your lawyer about how willing he is to defend you if this ever came to legal charges. I personally think the law is on weak constitutional and statutory grounds but I can't afford to be a test case -- definitely not worth going through to get 2 more rounds on a 17-rd mag; I'd rather just get more mags.
The good news for you is that Terry Maketa has already said he doesn't plan on enforcing these dubious laws so from practical standpoint, you probably don't need to worry about it.
Great-Kazoo
06-04-2013, 10:26
You as an adult, should do what ever it is you feel comfortable doing. You interpretation and legality of the newest crock of shit ramrodded through the state and signed by an effete governor are only as valid as the ones empowered to enforce it.
Myself i'll follow the laws as written.
Kraven251
06-04-2013, 10:32
You as an adult, should do what ever it is you feel comfortable doing. You interpretation and legality of the newest crock of shit ramrodded through the state and signed by an effete governor are only as valid as the ones empowered to enforce it.
Myself i'll follow the laws as written.
as written [Beer]
.40isthenew.45
06-04-2013, 10:37
Just trying to decide whether to split the budget between mags and extensions or just get the mags now and add extensions later. As much as I hate to admit it, even to myself, the July 1 deadline is driving some purchases.
The dead horse is sufficiently beaten on whether or not the laws are constitutional, enforceable or will be enforced.
Mags.
Take pictures of your mags with a newpaper or other material not dated by you. Make sure your camera is set to the correct date.
I kept all my receipts for mag purchases. I'll carry it with my range bag. No guarantees though.
kidicarus13
06-04-2013, 12:03
You as an adult, should do what ever it is you feel comfortable doing. You interpretation and legality of the newest crock of shit ramrodded through the state and signed by an effete governor are only as valid as the ones empowered to enforce it.
Thank you...
Mags.
Take pictures of your mags with a newpaper or other material not dated by you. Make sure your camera is set to the correct date.
Or buy a newspaper pre-July 1st and take pictures whenever the hell you want.
Great-Kazoo
06-04-2013, 12:46
I kept all my receipts for mag purchases. I'll carry it with my range bag. No guarantees though.
Fuck that. You carry receipts or BOS for your guns too? ? ?
blacklabel
06-04-2013, 15:19
Mags.
Take pictures of your mags with a newpaper or other material not dated by you. Make sure your camera is set to the correct date.
All of that can be done after July 1st. It proves nothing.
My only current dilemma, based on the advice of my trust attorney, the one and only NFATrustGuy, is deciding how many will transfer into my trust.
kidicarus13
06-04-2013, 16:19
My only current dilemma, based on the advice of my trust attorney, the one and only NFATrustGuy, is deciding how many will transfer into my trust.
I asked the same questions of the same attorney and was advised that there would be no reason not to transfer all of them.
I asked the same questions of the same attorney and was advised that there would be no reason not to transfer all of them.
Agree.
I was purposely vague and did not mean to imply said attorney was anything but crystal clear on that point. I will quite possibly sell some currently in my possession prior to midnight June 30 and just need to have the form ready to sign.
Any removable baseplate mag and/or >15 rd mag in my possession June 30 will go into the trust. I'm also acquiring an AK soon and have mags yet to be purchased.
I suppose I could have one transfer form for the pistol mags that aren't going to vary, and make another one for all others.
That's all I'm willing to say on a public internets forum.
Jeffrey Lebowski
06-04-2013, 21:07
Fuck that. You carry receipts or BOS for your guns too? ? ?
Yes. I do as well, all except for one [low capacity pistol] receipt that I cannot find. By "carry" these are scanned to pdf and take up virtually no space on iPhone / iPad.
So in my mind the question is are you buying magazines or are you collecting receipts - the manner of which allows one to forever own something by these laws?
If the burden of proof for time of possession is on the prosecution, IMHO, this doubles down on making their job difficult.
"Here you are officer / prosecuting attorney / detective! And feel free to lose it - I have many electronic copies both at home and remote. Enjoy!"
But I'm no attorney!
Great-Kazoo
06-04-2013, 21:55
Yes. I do as well, all except for one [low capacity pistol] receipt that I cannot find. By "carry" these are scanned to pdf and take up virtually no space on iPhone / iPad.
So in my mind the question is are you buying magazines or are you collecting receipts - the manner of which allows one to forever own something by these laws?
If the burden of proof for time of possession is on the prosecution, IMHO, this doubles down on making their job difficult.
"Here you are officer / prosecuting attorney / detective! And feel free to lose it - I have many electronic copies both at home and remote. Enjoy!"
But I'm no attorney!
I or you should never say shit w/out an attorney present. They want info, I'd like have an attorney present. End of Conversation.
Each to their own. Me i'm in it for the long game.
1) Can mags be legally transferred into a trust after June 30th?
2) I plan to just post pictures of everything I have in the picture thread and have my defense attorney subpoena every member of this site to the trial.
losttrail
06-05-2013, 07:50
I just finished a Citizen's Police Academy with our 'local' police department last night. Eight Tuesday nights (except the one Saturday range day) learning a small portion of what our police department does, how they manage resources, their equipment, etc. I am extremely impressed with the MPD, their personnel, equipment, tactics, training and overal attitude.
During this time the rash of gun bills came up as discussion topics more than once. The responses given from the chief on down are in line with what the vast majority of us believe on a personal level and the professional responses were basically that these laws are so poorly written and contradictory that there is no way to enforce them.
Hopefully the sheriff's lawsuit, actions taken by the NRA and others after July 1, recall of Morse, challenges that will come from some poor individual victim of these idiotic laws, mid-term elections, will have the effect of repealing these laws.
One must always hope.
Great-Kazoo
06-05-2013, 08:14
1) Can mags be legally transferred into a trust after June 30th?
2) I plan to just post pictures of everything I have in the picture thread and have my defense attorney subpoena every member of this site to the trial.
Why not? you own then do what ever you want as long as they are "in your possession" My question (AGAIN) is who knows what you own, are in possession etc etc?? UNLESS the mags have a post 6/30 date stamp / ID on them they were always in your possession. ALWAYS in your family's Possession. EVERY firearm within my reach is also owned by my spouse, daughter and numerous other family members.
Take me to court and prove, Beyond a Reasonable Doubt, they were not.
Like a firearm purchased ( 4473 purchase) before or after 7/1 You can transfer them LEGALLY as a "Gift" to your trust. This enables anyone you include in the trust, as owners until that ownership / possession is rescinded.
The less you post on line, the less Can and Will be Used against you In a Court of Law.
In laymen's term's SHUT UP, BE QUIET Stop Posting about it.
Bailey Guns
06-05-2013, 08:17
Or buy a newspaper pre-July 1st and take pictures whenever the hell you want.
Yeah. That was exactly my first thought.
Myself i'll follow the laws as written.
You understand them perfectly as written? I can interpret them to mean just about anything, that's why Kopel filed the lawsuit... "Constitutionally vague" I believe is the term. [Beer]
StagLefty
06-05-2013, 10:03
In laymen's term's SHUT UP, BE QUIET Stop Posting about it.
If you keep up this making sense position Jim you'll be asked to leave. [dig]
DingleBerns
06-05-2013, 10:45
get mags now and do what you need to do later...there is really no way to enforce these.
kidicarus13
06-05-2013, 11:48
Oy. Why are people trying so hard to prove their innocence.... it actually, doesn't double down on making their job difficult.
what makes that job difficult is saying "I don't have any obligation to answer your questions or provide anything.". That is difficult. Providing all sorts of documentation lets them verify that documentation. And if employee (a) at company (b) is an idiot, and says that receipt never came from company (b), well, now you've given them circumstantial evidence to work with. Wherein, you provide nothing, say nothing, there is nobody to go to, nobody to lie about or screw it up, nobody to claim to have lost records or to be an expert on how your full of shit, etc.
Make sense?
Nothing ever goes into the courtroom with the prosecuting attorney pointing his finger at you and saying "I think he's suspicious!" With the judge raising his eyebrow and saying.... ".......and?"
Say it with me.... "I-dont-have-an-obligation-to-answer-your-questions."
There you go. I'm proud of you.
PS: Little known fact. Quite literally, anything you said that is positive to your cause is not admissable in court (hearsay). However, anything that would point to your possible guilt is admissable (hearsay exemption for admissions). So quite literally, anything you say CAN and WILL be used against you. (nothing ever can be used FOR you). Wonderful system, is it not?
Ya, wonderful...
As stated by the Supreme Court in People v. Ward 154 Ill. 2d 272 (1992): "[a] defendant has no right to introduce portions of a statement which are not necessary to enable the jury to properly evaluate the portions introduced by the State.".... "the admission of evidence under this doctrine is limited to that which is relevant, material, and concerns the same subject at the same time." Ward, at 312.
The advice in Post #23 is accurate and smart people will heed it... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc
Aloha_Shooter
06-05-2013, 11:57
Why not? you own then do what ever you want as long as they are "in your possession" My question (AGAIN) is who knows what you own, are in possession etc etc?? UNLESS the mags have a post 6/30 date stamp / ID on them they were always in your possession. ALWAYS in your family's Possession. EVERY firearm within my reach is also owned by my spouse, daughter and numerous other family members.
Take me to court and prove, Beyond a Reasonable Doubt, they were not.
Like a firearm purchased ( 4473 purchase) before or after 7/1 You can transfer them LEGALLY as a "Gift" to your trust. This enables anyone you include in the trust, as owners until that ownership / possession is rescinded.
The less you post on line, the less Can and Will be Used against you In a Court of Law.
In laymen's term's SHUT UP, BE QUIET Stop Posting about it.
I think his concern is that the whole point of the trust is that it is legally another entity so there's a transfer of ownership (prohibited by stupid poorly-written law) even when possession remains the same. That's yet another example of how poorly written the laws are so I understand why he's asking. [mop]
Your other points about the prosecutor having the burden to prove a transgression and just shutting up are valid. [Flower]
With many, based on the postings herein, the liberals have at least won the battle of instilling fear into the general populace...is that not one of the things our founding fathers opposed?
Great-Kazoo
06-05-2013, 13:30
With many, based on the postings herein, the liberals have at least won the battle of instilling fear into the general populace...is that not one of the things our founding fathers opposed?
No shit i read more hand wringing and just plain bs over concerns regarding WHAT IF? WHAT NOW? WHAT SHOULD I DO
Same thing you have been doing, only with much less fanfare and INTERNET POSTINGS!
You don't record some woman fellating you, then express outrage when your SO ask "So who's this?"
Jeffrey Lebowski
06-05-2013, 17:35
I or you should never say shit w/out an attorney present. They want info, I'd like have an attorney present. End of Conversation.
I would actually agree with all of this.
But, to that point, would you or would you rather not have some sort of proof?
To Trot - yeah, OK, so let's say LATER I produce said evidence. With attorney. If they're going down to the falsified / BS / whatever road on my full press, I'm kind of screwed anyway.
I'm not trying to convince you to keep anything or not keep anything. Keep a yellow newspaper from June 30 if you want. :shrug: I'm merely agreeing keeping all these receipts seem pretty reasonable to me.
Did you or did you not have possession of this before July 1? I say I did, and this little piece of paper seems to agree. Now, what evidence shall we produce against that then?
Edit: Why would you not want to keep records for yourself anyway?
muddywings
06-05-2013, 18:21
Mags.
Take pictures of your mags with a newpaper or other material not dated by you. Make sure your camera is set to the correct date.
All of that can be done after July 1st. It proves nothing.
Then email the picture to yourself and a family member who can re-forward it back to prove when the email was sent. At least that's the best idea I can think of.
And I vote, buy mags now. Extensions later.
ANADRILL
06-05-2013, 18:28
All of that can be done after July 1st. It proves nothing.
But if you take a pic print it, and priority mail said pic to your self postdated before july1st ,and don't open the letter until questioned about mags...you will have used the federal system to circumvent the stupid state mag law....make sure the pic resides in a envelope inside a sealed priority envelope.
Jeffrey Lebowski
06-05-2013, 18:30
And you thought us receipt keepers were excessive.
ANADRILL
06-05-2013, 18:33
my idea isn't trying to be excessive, just using a gov't entity to fight against a gov' entity..the reciept idea is excessive
Just trying to decide whether to split the budget between mags and extensions or just get the mags now and add extensions later. As much as I hate to admit it, even to myself, the July 1 deadline is driving some purchases.
The dead horse is sufficiently beaten on whether or not the laws are constitutional, enforceable or will be enforced.
Newly possessing mags that are "extendable" or easily converted are illegal after the 1st. Constructing a magazine over ?15 rounds is also illegal after the 1st. I have a feeling that as vague as the law is that adding an extension is basically "constructing" a mag over 15 rounds.
Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk 2
Great-Kazoo
06-05-2013, 20:35
I would actually agree with all of this.
But, to that point, would you or would you rather not have some sort of proof? Not at All. I very rarely keep or kept records. I know where all my firearms have come from. Habit from the late 60's early 70's
To Trot - yeah, OK, so let's say LATER I produce said evidence. With attorney. If they're going down to the falsified / BS / whatever road on my full press, I'm kind of screwed anyway.
I'm not trying to convince you to keep anything or not keep anything. Keep a yellow newspaper from June 30 if you want. :shrug: I'm merely agreeing keeping all these receipts seem pretty reasonable to me.
Did you or did you not have possession of this before July 1? I say I did, and this little piece of paper seems to agree. Now, what evidence shall we produce against that then?
Edit: Why would you not want to keep records for yourself anyway?
See first reply. Force of habit. Outside of the NFA items, who needs them? Your an adult do what your gut tells you to do.
My "feeling / Opinion" IF and when some .gov entity wants you. It doesn't mean shit how much paperwork, pictures, witness, sworn depositions, character references etc. You are Fucked. Seen it more than 1 time. You're on their list, pay the atty and hope you get less then 366 days.
YMMV
Jeffrey Lebowski
06-05-2013, 21:49
See first reply. Force of habit. Outside of the NFA items, who needs them?
Well, me, I guess. Other than Amazon purchases (where returns are downloadable) and consumables, I keep them.
I've returned two firearms (one defective Springfield Armory to mfg, one broken war surplus to shop I purchased). Made much easier with the receipt.
I've returned expensive running shoes, made warranty claims on bikes, etc. Just today my wife called warranty on our keurig #3. I guess I still have some OCD / pharmacist in me on record keeping.
I don't even reload but I track every shot, number every magazine, and keep range notes. To each his own, though.
My "feeling / Opinion" IF and when some .gov entity wants you. It doesn't mean shit how much paperwork, pictures, witness, sworn depositions, character references etc. You are Fucked. Seen it more than 1 time. You're on their list, pay the atty and hope you get less then 366 days.
But this I agree with. Try as I might to stay on the straight and narrow.
All that organization makes my head hurt. I'm with Jim on this one - meticulous records aren't going to put the dogs off one's trail once Big Brother is sniffing. If evidence of wrong doing wasn't found, it would be manufactured/planted. The only records I keep are of my reloads. Since I sold all of my guns, I don't need to keep track of those anymore.
What it comes down to is that they can arrest you or seize your mags/guns for any reason. Sure the onus is on them to prove in court that you did not possess them before July 1st but who is going to spend the money (hundreds, maybe even thousands of $$) and hire a lawyer for a $20 item?
Jeffrey Lebowski
06-05-2013, 22:17
All that organization makes my head hurt. I'm with Jim on this one - meticulous records aren't going to put the dogs off one's trail once Big Brother is sniffing. If evidence of wrong doing wasn't found, it would be manufactured/planted. The only records I keep are of my reloads. Since I sold all of my guns, I don't need to keep track of those anymore.
It isn't for them, it is for me. Some folks relax otherwise, I guess I need that kind of structure in life.
I also enjoy scoring baseball games on paper, and track calories and macronutrients vs. everything garmin will give me for workouts. But I digress.
That said, those things are borderline unusual, I'd still maintain keeping receipts for bigger ticket items is just prudent.
I think his concern is that the whole point of the trust is that it is legally another entity so there's a transfer of ownership (prohibited by stupid poorly-written law) even when possession remains the same. That's yet another example of how poorly written the laws are so I understand why he's asking. [mop]
Your other points about the prosecutor having the burden to prove a transgression and just shutting up are valid. [Flower]
Yes exactly, thank you. The second part of my post was facetious.
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