Newbie to CO. Question about carry laws [Archive] - Colorado AR-15 Shooters Club Discussion Forums

John Moses Browning

12-31-2008, 01:33

It is perfectly legal to carry a handgun with a loaded magazine and a loaded chamber in your glove box in the state of Colorado. A vehicle is personal property, and you do not need a CCW to carry a weapon IN it. Just the same as you don't need a driver's license to drive a car on your land, just public land.

Denver is legal-limbo concerning most firearms in general. To my knowledge, their 'personal' firearms laws are in conflict with the state Constitution, so it's unclear as to whether or not they can actually enforce them to that regard. For the mean time, however, if you have to go into Denver ( the one place where you might actually need a damn firearm to defend yourself. . ) well, what they don't know won't hurt them. Personally, I find it better to be judged by twelve than carried by six, as that old saw goes. .

By the way, welcome to the boards, friend!
[Beer]

Sucka

12-31-2008, 07:21

Yup, as JMB explained Denver fought for and won a "home city rule" or some such case that grants them the right to operate outside the boundaries of state preemption (go figure because that's exactly the point of preemption is to avoid this type of BS). I'm not 100% on this, but i believe the reasoning is the city of Denver existed before the state of Colorado or something like that? Someone i'm sure can clarify on that, but they have fought for, and been able to legally ban open carry, mags over 20 rounds, their own watered down AWB and so forth. Whether or not any of these laws have actually been challenged in a court of law, i have no idea.

To my knowledge, and i'm not a lawyer, you still can legally carry a firearm within the county of Denver in your personal vehicle without a permit. Depending on your county you can have a permit pretty quickly, so just cover your ass and get it. Best bet is to avoid Denver all together if you can.

BTW: Welcome back, and to the site. You can also read up on Colorado laws over on www.rmgo.org (http://www.rmgo.com)

rabbitstew

12-31-2008, 12:25

Thanks a bunch for the reply :)

claimbuster

01-03-2009, 18:44

Just remember this applies to handguns only. Loaded shotguns and/or rifles in your car are still a no-no.

centrarchidae

01-04-2009, 01:03

Claimbuster,

Loaded magazines for your rifle or shotgun are okay. The rifle or shotgun needs to have the CHAMBER unloaded. (I think there's a provision somewhere requiring that long guns be completely unloaded on ATVs or snowmobiles, but it's been a while since I had to do anything with it and I forgot where it is.)

I took this quote from the legislature's web site not five minutes ago.

33-6-125. Possession of a loaded firearm in a motor vehicle.

It is unlawful for any person, except a person authorized by law or by the division, to possess or have under his control any firearm, other than a pistol or revolver, in or on any motor vehicle unless the chamber of such firearm is unloaded

Deckert

01-10-2009, 19:45

The 'right" to carry a firearm in your vehicle is a bit tricky. The state constitution provides that a citizen can carry a weapon in their vehicle for the purpose of "self-defense while travelling."

Learn those words, especially if you do NOT have a CCW!

My understanding is that you may still be charged with a CCW violation IF the authorities choose to do so, however, the constitutional provision can be used as a "positive defense" at trial. My recommendation would be to use those words - and those words only - if you are ever questioned by the police when and if they discover a firearm in your vehicle. Then shut up and get a lawyer. Offer NO OTHER explanations that might dilute or negate your constitutional protection. The cops WILL want more, but DON'T DO IT. Be polite but refuse to speak more without the benefit of counsel.

Plus, never, ever, give voluntary consent to a vehicle search. Ever. The cops will need probable cause to search without your consent and, if they choose to do so anyway, will pollute any "evidence" they discover. They may delay you, threaten you, cajole you if you say "no". Screw 'em, let them get a warrant from a judge.

Most of the present restrictions imposed by Denver are applicable to Denver residents ONLY (for example, there IS a list of prohibited "assault weapons" forbidden to Denver residents) and there is NO restriction on magazine capacity to non-Denver residents. I researched this a year or two ago. It took MANY repeated calls and emails to the Denver DA and police. I FINALLY got this answer from a training officer at the Denver Police range via email which, of course, I have preserved.

Now the disclaimer: I am not an attorney and this advice is worth exactly what you have paid for it. While I believe it to be true and accurate, I take no responsibility whatsoever for your actions or choices. I highly recommend you confirm this or any other information before you rely upon it.

Best of luck and welcome home!

theGinsue

01-11-2009, 01:54

Deckert's eMail is right on the mark! One of the posts that used to be (and may still be) here on the site was a video of an attorney with "rebuttal" at the end by a PD officer that said NOT to make any statements to the police. Remember, ANYTHING you say CAN be used against you - even if you didn't mean it the way it is used against you.

While I used to live & work on a Federal installation (still work on one) which implies consent to search, at no other time will I ever willingly grant the right to search my person, home or vehicle. If they really want to search, their "probable cause" had better stand up in court or they'd better show me the warrant first. With this said, I can't recall a time I had anything to hide - but I still maintain my right to my privacy. This has caused my to sit on the side of the road for upwards of an hour while the PD officer looked for something he could use to obtain his probable cause (suggested homework: learn about the "plain sight doctorine"). In the end, I was always allowed to go about my business.

HunterCO

01-11-2009, 02:13

The 'right" to carry a firearm in your vehicle is a bit tricky. The state constitution provides that a citizen can carry a weapon in their vehicle for the purpose of "self-defense while travelling."

I don't know where you got that it says for "personal protection" as well as other lawfull purposes not self defense!

Learn those words, especially if you do NOT have a CCW!

Why is that? You don't need a ccw to carry in a private means of convenience. That is the "LAW"

My understanding is that you may still be charged with a CCW violation IF the authorities choose to do so, however, the constitutional provision can be used as a "positive defense" at trial. My recommendation would be to use those words - and those words only - if you are ever questioned by the police when and if they discover a firearm in your vehicle. Then shut up and get a lawyer. Offer NO OTHER explanations that might dilute or negate your constitutional protection. The cops WILL want more, but DON'T DO IT. Be polite but refuse to speak more without the benefit of counsel.

Your understanding is very flawed and I might suggest removing the tin foil and coming back to mother earth.

Plus, never, ever, give voluntary consent to a vehicle search. Ever. The cops will need probable cause to search without your consent and, if they choose to do so anyway, will pollute any "evidence" they discover. They may delay you, threaten you, cajole you if you say "no". Screw 'em, let them get a warrant from a judge.

I am going to guess you have never been to law school just a guess? A LEO only needs reasonable suspicion to search your vehicle. Trust me you will loose in court it don't take much to give them that and telling them to FO wont work. Last but not least they don't need a warrant to search your vehicle!

Most of the present restrictions imposed by Denver are applicable to Denver residents ONLY (for example, there IS a list of prohibited "assault weapons" forbidden to Denver residents) and there is NO restriction on magazine capacity to non-Denver residents. I researched this a year or two ago. It took MANY repeated calls and emails to the Denver DA and police. I FINALLY got this answer from a training officer at the Denver Police range via email which, of course, I have preserved.

Never ask a cop about the law that is like asking a cashier at the gas station about a medical problem it's rather silly.

Now the disclaimer: I am not an attorney and this advice is worth exactly what you have paid for it. While I believe it to be true and accurate, I take no responsibility whatsoever for your actions or choices. I highly recommend you confirm this or any other information before you rely upon it.

Best of luck and welcome home!

That is the best part of your whole post.

Mikester

01-11-2009, 09:17

I don't know where you got that it says for "personal protection" as well as other lawfull purposes not self defense!

Why is that? You don't need a ccw to carry in a private means of convenience. That is the "LAW"

Your understanding is very flawed and I might suggest removing the tin foil and coming back to mother earth.

I am going to guess you have never been to law school just a guess? A LEO only needs reasonable suspicion to search your vehicle. Trust me you will loose in court it don't take much to give them that and telling them to FO wont work. Last but not least they don't need a warrant to search your vehicle!

Never ask a cop about the law that is like asking a cashier at the gas station about a medical problem it's rather silly.

That is the best part of your whole post.

I couldn't agree more. And this is something to remember folks...if an officer stops you and asks if you have any "guns, knives, drugs, hand grenades or bazookas" in the car....you better answer him truthfully or your in for a shitstorm.

rondog

01-11-2009, 12:51

A cop can do any damn thing he wants to you, and arrest/charge you with any damn thing he wants. Whether it will hold up in court is an entirely different matter. The charges may get thrown out, he may be reprimanded/spanked/fired/whatever, but he CAN cause you mucho grief and expense whether it's justified or not. BTDT.

Personally, I'll be as cooperative and honest as possible, but I will be VERY guarded as to what I say, and will certainly request legal counsel first. Refusing to speak will surely piss them off and inflame the situation. I'll demand my rights, but not to the point of getting tazed and clubbed for it.

Deckert

01-11-2009, 18:10

HunterCO... what can I say, sorry I pissed you off? Well, no, I'd rather not.

I offered my opinion and my understanding of the law as I know it. Sure I may well be wrong and you may certainly disagree with my opinion. Not sure why you choose to be so pissy about it, but hey, whatever.

Of course a police officer can search your vehicle if they choose. They can detain you and pretty much do damn well what they want I guess. My advice was to never give voluntary consent and I stand by it. I never said be impolite or tell them to "FO" which, I presume, means "fuck off". I never said that it would be good to lie to the police either. Why would you want to piss them off? I said, and I mean, that citizens should never surrender to the "mind if I look in the trunk?" trick. It's a cop method of avoiding the restrictons of the Fourth Amendment and I think it's wrong. Yes, yes I do mind your unjustified violation of my Fourth Amendmant rights officer, no matter what bullshit reason you think you've got.

Never went to law school, and I said so, and so your "guess" that "I never went to law school" is obviously intended as a gratuitous insult. Why insult me? Same deal with the "tin foil hat" comment. Cheap insult, nothing more.

As far as asking a cop for legal advice, I agree. I started with the DA and the Mayor's office. I was consistently ignored and, finally after many repeated attempts, the Mayor's office referred to the police officer I spoke to... maybe not the best, but it was all I could force out of the system. He seemed like a really decent guy.

You seem to be a supporter of the police, perhaps you are even an LEO yourself, I don't know. I support the cops too. It's a tough job that I wouldn't want. However, I am not fool enough to believe that the police are my friends. They aren't. You want me to trust them. I don't. I don't want to make their job harder, in fact I regard any contact with the police as unfortunate and unpleasant. At least I've never had a good one. And, no, I'm not a crook nor have I ever been one. My worst social "faux pas" is a speeding ticket.

Finally, you may in fact be the "Super Moderator" and I respect your authority in that role. However, that's neither identical to nor a license to be a "Super Douchebag" which, I submit, you were in your response.

Geez dude.

HunterCO

01-11-2009, 20:37

Deckert

You did not piss me off you will have to try much harder than that. I am sorry if I offended you but at the same time why give false information?

I realize Denver is by no means the most gun freindly place in CO, but to tell people that they will get hammered if they go in to denver with a gun is ridiculous.

Once again your 4th ammendment rights do not apply to your vehicle an officer does not need a warrant to search it. My point is that you went off about how you will never give consent or talk well guess what...........that is going to get your car searched since you must have something to hide. I might also add usually if an officer asks if they can search your vehicle for what ever reason they are already suspicous.

Right or wrong that is the way things are. Your attitude is going to get you nowhere on the side of the road.

I have no "authority" as you put it I don't veiw myself any different than any other member of this site. You are always welcome to tell me what you think just keep it civil and there is nothing you could ever say to me that would get you in trouble on this site.

HunterCO
"SuperDouchebag"

cleaner72

01-12-2009, 00:18

this is direct from a lawyer:

If you do not wish to consent to a search of your vehicle, you should make two things clear to the officer. First, that you do not consent to a search of your vehicle, and second that you will not physically obstruct him if he believes that he has probable cause. This is so because even if you refuse consent to search the officer might search anyway. If the officer searches your car without your consent he will have to justify to a judge why he thought he had probable cause to search in the event contraband is discovered. If you are charged with a crime based upon items seized from the car, your lawyer may be able to challenge the admissibility of this evidence with a suppression motion. Had you consented to the search then this potentially valuable defensive strategy would not be available to you.

Each state has its own laws governing this. In colorado probable cause is all they need and that definition can be very broad....after that its up the the lawyer you get.

Irving

01-12-2009, 12:41

You do not need a CCW permit to carry a hand gun in your car, and there are no restrictions as to where or how you carry it.

I was recently stopped at a DUI check point and asked to exit my vehicle for a sobriety test while wearing my loaded (with round in the chamber) gun on my hip in an IWB holster, covered under my shirt. I do NOT have a CCW. I explained to the officer that I was carrying. He instructed me to pull over to the side of the road and wait for him there. He approached with another officer, had me undo my seat belt and get out of the vehicle. I put my hands on the roof, and they removed my pistol from the holster under my shirt. The guy started to do the finger sobriety test, then stopped less than 10 seconds later when he realized I was no where near intoxicated. They came to the passenger side of the car, handed me my license, set the now unloaded gun (magazine out and slide locked open) with the mag next to it and even tossed the round I had chambered onto the floor and that was that. They didn't even lecture me about having the gun and the way I was carrying it.

This was in Thornton by the way.

dmeis

01-12-2009, 21:50

...
33-6-125. Possession of a loaded firearm in a motor vehicle.

It is unlawful for any person, except a person authorized by law or by the division, to possess or have under his control any firearm, other than a pistol or revolver, in or on any motor vehicle unless the chamber of such firearm is unloaded

Title 33 is the Wildlife articles. The statute above only applies while hunting. Not daily life.

HunterCO

01-12-2009, 22:59

Title 33 is the Wildlife articles. The statute above only applies while hunting. Not daily life.

That statue applies 365 days a year 24/7 you are never alowed to carry a "rifle-shotgun" in a motor vehicle with a round in the chamber period. Exceptions are if you are disabled you can get a permit from DOW to not only carry a loaded rifle/shotgun but you can also shoot from your vehicle.

As the statue states handguns are exempt.(not from shooting from the vehicle you still need the permit but you can carry a loaded handgun no permit needed)

dmeis

01-13-2009, 11:52

Your understanding is very flawed. lol :D Perhaps you are not talking about Colorado State laws? Perhaps other state or municipal laws....

That statue applies 365 days a year 24/7 you are never alowed to carry a "rifle-shotgun" in a motor vehicle with a round in the chamber period. Exceptions are if you are disabled you can get a permit from DOW to not only carry a loaded rifle/shotgun but you can also shoot from your vehicle.

As the statue states handguns are exempt.(not from shooting from the vehicle you still need the permit but you can carry a loaded handgun no permit needed)

Your statements do imply hunting laws... "DOW", "needing a permit to shoot from a vehicle".

Any statute defined under Title 33 applies to Wildlife/Parks/Recreation. Here is the statute in whole:

33-6-125 Possession of a loaded firearm in a motor vehicle
It is unlawful for any person, except a person authorized by law or by the division, to possess or have under his control any firearm, other than a pistol or revolver, in or on any motor vehicle unless the chamber of such firearm is unloaded. Any person in possession or in control of a rifle or shotgun in a motor vehicle shall allow any peace officer, as defined in section 33-1-102(32), who is empowered and acting under the authority granted in section 33-6-101 to enforce articles 1 to 6 of this title to inspect the chamber of any rifle or shotgun in the motor vehicle….Any person who violates this section is guilty of a misdemeanor and, upon conviction thereof, shall be punished by a fine of fifty dollars and an assessment of fifteen license suspicion points.

33-6-101 Powers and duties of officers
(1) Every Colorado wildlife officer or other commissioned officer of the division shall enforce the provisions of article 1 to 6 of this title. Every other peace officer, as defined in section 33-1-102(32), may assist the Colorado wildlife officers in the enforcement of articles 1 to 6 of this title…

33-6-125 is enforced by a wildlife officer, or other LEO acting in cooperation with the DOW, all the while enforcing 33-1-xyz to 33-6-xyz.

Furthermore, the penalty for 33-6-125 is a point assessment against your hunting/fishing license. What is the basis for this penalty if people don't hunt or fish?

Title 42 applies to Motor Vehicle and Traffic Code. There are no statutes defined under Title 42 for firearms in the vehicle.

Title 18 is Criminal Code. Article 12 is Offenses Relating to Firearms and Weapons. There are no statutes defined under 18-12-xyz for carrying a loaded firearm in a motor vehicle.

When interpreting laws you have to consider the spirit of the law. In this case fair chase is promoted by limiting the use of a loaded rife-shotgun in a motor vehicle.

HunterCO

01-13-2009, 14:57

Your understanding is very flawed. lol :D Perhaps you are not talking about Colorado State laws? Perhaps other state or municipal laws....

Nope you are welcome to call an attorney it is illegal to carry a rifle with a round in the chamber period. It has nothing to do with DOW I simply stated that you can get a permit to do so if your disabled and hunting.

This is a direct quote from a lawyer.

"You may be a bit confused about what you call the Vehicle Carry Law. Colorado law makes it illegal to carry a loaded (round in the chamber) LONG GUN (rifle or shotgun) in a motor vehicle. The law does not apply to handguns, which may be carried loaded in motor vehicles provided all other applicable laws are observed.

Tony Fabian, J.D"

You are welcome to contact him for further clarification as I am sure he could explain it much better than me.

303.663.9339

dmeis

01-13-2009, 21:11

dmeis

01-13-2009, 21:13

BTW, even if you can't explain it as well as your lawyer I would be happy with just a statute to support it. It still sounds like your lawyer is talking in regards to Title 33, in which he is correct. However it only applies while in the act of hunting.

HunterCO

01-13-2009, 23:05

Is that the best you can do?

Yep that is the best I can do I am not a lawyer so I consult with one if you have any better ideas on who I should ask I am all ears.

lol I provided facts and articulation to the contrary and all you do is refer me to someone who told you something?

You provided no facts except your opinion of the law and the "someone" I asked was an attorney who told me "something" I know I am an idiot please let me know who I should consult with in the future about legal matters.

I'm not arguing with you I'm just stating the obvious.

That's apparant

I am truly interested in your position but you have no foundation (other than opinion without facts) any further than hearsay from a lawyer.

Sorry that I have nothing but hearsay however you have nothing but opinion so what is your point? Hearsay only applies in the court of law legal counsel is not considered "hearsay" but I bet you knew that.

If there is any truth to your position it could only be because of case law from some obscure statute still in appeals.
:beer:

Well by all means feel free to post some case law to support your interpretation of the law.

33 is to the state of CO as the CFR is to the feds you just don't get it and are to stuborn to get legal advice.

However I have a great solution grab a rifle load it, jump in your vehicle and get stopped then tell the officer you know the law and let us all know how it turns out.

:D

Irving

01-13-2009, 23:25

04

Any statute defined under Title 33 applies to Wildlife/Parks/Recreation. Here is the statute in whole:

Any LEO can not freely enforce Title 33. As in a normal traffic stop.

Furthermore, the penalty for 33-6-125 is a point assessment against your hunting/fishing license. What is the basis for this penalty if people don't hunt or fish?

You didn't post all of the section about how any other LEO can assist the DOW. Also, I didn't see any restrictions on where you could be in violation of this law. How can you say that you would not be charged with illegally hunting anywhere in the entire state?

Can you please post the section about what powers are given to the officers under that section please?

Irving

01-14-2009, 11:23

dmeis

01-14-2009, 17:57

...Well by all means feel free to post some case law to support your interpretation of the law.

33 is to the state of CO as the CFR is to the feds you just don't get it and are to stuborn to get legal advice.

However I have a great solution grab a rifle load it, jump in your vehicle and get stopped then tell the officer you know the law and let us all know how it turns out.

:D

I'll look up any annotations or case law a little later. I'm not stubborn, I'm on vacation. :D

dmeis

01-14-2009, 18:17

04

You didn't post all of the section about how any other LEO can assist the DOW. Also, I didn't see any restrictions on where you could be in violation of this law. How can you say that you would not be charged with illegally hunting anywhere in the entire state?

Can you please post the section about what powers are given to the officers under that section please?

I posted the whole statute except for the muzzleloader portion.

To be charged with illegally hunting you would have to be in the act of hunting. The officer must have probable cause that you were in fact hunting. Decoys, camo clothes, hunting packs, maps, vicinity of game, etc... all go to paint a picture of "hunting". Just driving home with groceries in the vehicle and no other "clues" would not support hunting. Furthermore, 33-6-124 Use of a motor vehicle or aircraft is the predominate charge.

dmeis

01-14-2009, 18:37

Also dmeis, if your interpretation of the law is correct, that ALSO means that you CANNOT carry a hand gun concealed in your vehicle, except while hunting. Is that the way you believe the law is written?

No, the statute that provides for carrying in home and vehicle (without permit) is under Title 18 (Criminal Code) along with all the other weapons statutes:

18-12-105 Unlawfully carrying a concealed weapon - unlawful possession of weapons.
...
(2) It shall not be an offense if the defendant was:
(a) A person in his or her own dwelling or place of business or on property owned or under his or her control at the time of the act of carrying; or
(b) A person in a private automobile or other private means of conveyance who carries a weapon for lawful protection of such person's or another's person or property while traveling; or
(c) ( blah blah blah = a concealed weapons permit)

No where in this statute does it define HANDGUN only. It only mentions firearm.

dmeis

01-21-2009, 03:33

I discussed this with many LEOs. The opinions are split 50/50 on the legality. Imagine that. I talked to DOW and they have written this for non hunting situations. There are CO court cases that have upheld this situation as well. :(

That being said, I don't agree with it and think that it could be contested to the highest level. My main argument is that it's under the wildlife title. There should be an 18 statute if it were written properly. Furthermore, LEOs have specific statutes that give them the "not an offense" clause. An example would be for concealed carry. There is no mention of this clause under 33. Therefore, does law enforcement violate this law when executing a warrant, a search warrant, or any SWAT situation while approaching a dwelling with weapons loaded? Or do they make ready once they exit the vehicle and are running towards the dwelling?

I agree with the idea of common sense and weapon safety but I don't generally agree with limiting our freedoms by something as basic as common sense.

To finish my opinion on this subject, you would have to be an "idiot" in order for me to write you for this!

Irving

01-21-2009, 09:24

I discussed this with many LEOs. The opinions are split 50/50 on the legality. Imagine that.

That's because they aren't lawyers and have to try and remember thousands of other laws. I learned early on that asking cops about laws is pointless. You either get someone who knows what they are talking about, or someone that doesn't know SHIT about what they are talking about, but still gives you the good ole cop lecture about why you can't do whatever you're asking about.

theGinsue

01-21-2009, 22:06

I dunno. I'm sitting here wondering why morE cops can't be like Barney Miller. He had common sense.

[ROFL1]

atrdriver1

02-09-2009, 12:57

Is that the best you can do? lol I provided facts and articulation to the contrary and all you do is refer me to someone who told you something? I'm not arguing with you I'm just stating the obvious.

I am truly interested in your position but you have no foundation (other than opinion without facts) any further than hearsay from a lawyer.

If there is any truth to your position it could only be because of case law from some obscure statute still in appeals. Or it's like the lore stating you can't use reloads in your protection gun.

:beer:

BTW Tony Fabian is not just any lawyer. He is pretty much THE go to guy for CO firearms law. I am confident anything he says is couched not only in an intimate familiarity with CO firearms law but also any pertinent case law.
From his website.
"Tony helped draft firearms legislation enacted in 2003 pertaining to uniform, shall-issue concealed carry of handguns and state pre-emption of local firearms restrictions. He also writes a legal information column, “The Hired Gun—Firearms and the Law,” for Colorado Shooting, the Colorado State Shooting Association magazine."

malefactor

02-17-2009, 14:38

I have four or five good friends who are cops and a couple more by extension. And they are all quite grounded and have plenty of common sense. I serve on a security team wit them and we train together. They all believe a properly trained citizen should have a gun. And I don't mean they all think everyone heeds to be POST certified. Just trained to use it and about safety. I don't think any of them think it ought to be a condition to own a gun but to carry.

About the whole rifle in the car thing. I found out about this from one of those friends. It is 365 but does tie into some of the laws concerning hunting. It's like have one more deterrent for pulling over on the side of the road and taking a deer from the cab of your truck. It's one of the things Wildlife fought for in the gun laws.