Working up loads. Good-bye W748.

[Red_Chili]

So I got a mess of Nosler 60gr. Ballistic Tips in .223, I like Hornady V-Max just fine but like BTs a bit better than others in my .300WSM so I thought I'd give them a try. Wanted to try W748 as well.

Trouble is, I couldn't find any data for W748, anywhere. I could find some close to the same combo, but one 60 gr. bullet ain't like another (different pressures due to different bearing surface, etc.). So I thought I'd work up some loads. WSR primers, Win brass trimmed and full length sized.

Did 6 each in 24 gr, 6 in 25 gr, and 6 in 26 gr. No pressure signs in any of them. I did notice the grouping wasn't all that hot, but then, neither am I. [LOL]

What I did notice was, the groupings got a bit tighter as the load went up. I also noticed that the brass popped out kinda dirty, not what I am used to. But none of the groups were sub MOA. In fact, they were no better than some Ultramax 62 gr. FMJ plinking and fouling reloads I got from Cabela's on a special deal. So my conclusion was... meh. Disappointed.

I had also done some H335 loads (WSR primers again) in 24 gr and 25 gr (the Nosler book shows 25 gr as max, and as the most accurate load, but it is in a bolt rifle with a different twist, so not the same I'm thinkin'). Shot the 24 gr and it was about the same as the best W748 - except the brass came out clean. Shot the 25 gr. and two bullets shared a hole, and the rest were sub MOA except for a flier (I need to work on that. I probably need to raise my scope a bit too, working on that. Riser should be here Tuesday.).

Well I'll be darned. I really would not have thought a powder would make THAT much difference.

Anybody want to trade some W748? [Stooge] dangit I always have to learn the hard way Maybe the W748 wants a hotter primer, I dunno. Might clean it up some too?

So anybody else play around with H335 or found even better performance, or is that close to the pinnacle within a margin of error?

Oh yeah, Oly K-8 Target Match 20 inch 1:9 AR-15.

[Red_Chili]

So here is a question: the Noslers have a cannelure. The smith down at the local shop strongly recommended NOT crimping (I have a Lee "Factory Crimper") or it would affect accuracy. He has told me some other odd things though that have proven false with a little web research, so I dunno.

Using RCBS full length sizing dies FWIW.

So what say you? Crimp? No crimp? Pros and cons?

[Red_Chili]

Well I am just a wealth of questions today.
The RCBS die is in .223 Rem.
Is there any reason to use a 5.56 die set instead? (frankly haven't looked yet on availability though).
Rifle is chambered for 5.56 not SAAMI .223.

The question occurred to me as I was reading up on differences. I do know I tried to use PMC once-fired brass and couldn't even get it to chamber. Even after full length sizing. Seemed odd to me, and counterintuitive since the rifle is chambered to NATO.

[Colorado Osprey]

Most of the RCBS full lenght dies require camming over in the press. (your instructions with the dies should say this) If this doesn't occur you are not really getting a full length size. I would bet your brass did not get fully sized if it doesn't chamber.
223 brass when sized to 223 will fit in a 5.56 chamber or a 223 chamber.
No need for differrent dies.

Most older load data books shows W748 data.

Hornady 3rd edition manual 1980
page 74 list their 60 grain bullets and W748
Starting load at 22.1 grain to a max of 26.5 grains

Nosler doesn't list W748 in any of their load data with 60 grain bullets

www.hodgdon.com
lists in their loading data for with W748 bullets in weights of 55 grains bullets with a max load of 26.3 grains; 63 grain bullets at 25.0 grains
You should be able to develope a load using the W748 using a 60 grain bullet keeping the max load below....say.... 25.7 grains

Almost all published load data is pretty safe from any pressure signs in my experience.

Load data is just a starting point.
Every gun is different and only load developement will show you what will work best.

As far as crimping. Generally I do not on a light recoil round like 223. Even when here is a cannalure.
Many target/bench shooter crimp to get a more consistent ignition.
Again try a few and see what works best for you, your gun and your accuracy.

The powder I use most is H4198 because it is so clean.
AA2015 gives me the best accuracy.
H335 is pretty dirty but easy to meter.

[w748]

As you might guess I've used a LOT of this powder! I've found as you have that groups tend to shrink as you get closer to max. With only 1 exception I can think of ( 30-30) ,mag primers give better results and I always crimp rounds for any self loading rifle.YMMV.
That said , I too have switched to 335 when loading for the AR, it seems to be a bit less temperature sensitive.
BTW, I crimp to avoid bullet setback, not because of recoil. If neck tension alone is too light the bullet can set back on the feed ramps. I've seen it and measured it in tests. Serious match shooters will spend the time and effort on every case to ensure proper tension but my use for the AR isnt worth it. MOA is doable. Have fun and good luck!

[currahee]

Ive shot alot of 748 in my .223 reloads- it likes it at max in my rifle- have also shot 335 and like it alot also- but my go to powder now is Ramshot TAC. Give it a try with your 60's and you might be very happy. Been getting sub MOA in most loads- and it tends to get you more velocity than most other powders with the heavier loads and still be within pressure specs. 335 powers my 34grn HP loads- but 50grn and up sit on top of TAC. Im going to get a pound of Ramshot Xterminator to try out for my lighter loads and see how it does.
As Osprey said- check the setup of your die- no reason if set correctly the brass shouldnt chamber.

ETA: I Lee factory crimp my rounds. Tried crimped and non crimped loads- saw no real diff in accuracy. Have had the bullet set back when hitting the feed ramps on uncrimped loads a couple times- so all get crimped now.

[Red_Chili]

Great info. Thanks guys. I will give crimping a try (yeah, lots of work with a single stage beginning press for sure). Being a geek, I want to try for as good accuracy as I can get (out of the rifle. The bio-unit is another matter.).

The PMC brass was weird. Yeah, I cammed over per the instructions. Did some PMC, and some Win brass. PMC no go, Win was fine, new or reload. I noticed the slightest ridge at the base of the PMC after sizing once-fired, my bet is that's what did it. Just didn't size quite right.

[edit: regards the W748 loads, I figured 23, 24, and 25 grains based on what info I could find, and that's what I shot. I am cautious about generalizing from data for other bullets as each one may have more or less bearing surface resulting in more or less pressure, and I didn't want to push it. Y'know, H335 may be dirty but it is spotless compared to 748! I'll give the others a try when I get around to it. Thanks again.]