View Full Version : DHS checkpoint refuals,lol
brokenscout
07-07-2013, 21:49
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4Ku17CqdZg&feature=youtu.be
DavieD55
07-07-2013, 22:08
All those people are just being jerks. (Sarcasm)
brokenscout
07-07-2013, 22:17
Yep, but kinda funny. I thought a few would have got their asses kicked
All those people are just being jerks. (Sarcasm)
BushMasterBoy
07-07-2013, 22:20
Yeah...they oughta go house to house! Knock on some doors...starting with Pueblo! If they don't find any illegal immigrants, I'll quit posting forever on here!
DavieD55
07-07-2013, 22:40
It is amazing but not a surprise as to how they try to intimidate motorists.
airborneranger
07-07-2013, 22:49
"Did I somehow stumble into Mexico?" LOL
Are you standing up for the illegals? I have no problem answering that I am an American. And any officer of the peace has the right to ask you for your name and and to provide identification. Seizures are a different matter. I drove truck for years and had to allow random inspections of my cargo. Especially when traveling in some areas. I especially would not piss someone off who has the ability to detain me or make my life harder than it has to be. Those people should have been detained for the attitude they took with officers. You can be held for 24 hours with out charges being pressed I do believe.
airborneranger
07-07-2013, 23:02
Are you standing up for the illegals? I have no problem answering that I am an American. And any officer of the peace has the right to ask you for your name and and to provide identification. Seizures are a different matter. I drove truck for years and had to allow random inspections of my cargo. Especially when traveling in some areas. I especially would not piss someone off who has the ability to detain me or make my life harder than it has to be. Those people should have been detained for the attitude they took with officers. You can be held for 24 hours with out charges being pressed I do believe.
Seriously? I hope I am just missing the sarcasm in your post.
DavieD55
07-07-2013, 23:16
Some of those checkpoints are like 80 miles north of the border. If they actually worked for their intended purposes of stopping illegal imigration and drug smuggling but they dont. Meanwhile, hundreds of illegals just illegally crossed the border and are on thier way to get some taxpayer assistance to help get them established in the land of free healthcare, free housing, free food, free college, free Electronic Benefits Transfer money to go gamble and night club away, free drivers licenses so they can vote in the upcoming election cylce for you guessed it more free shit at the expense of those rich Americans.
Those checkpoints are not good for anything other than to condition people not to question authority.
What a F---ing joke!
ImNtUrBuddyGuy
07-07-2013, 23:20
Are you standing up for the illegals? I have no problem answering that I am an American. And any officer of the peace has the right to ask you for your name and and to provide identification. Seizures are a different matter. I drove truck for years and had to allow random inspections of my cargo. Especially when traveling in some areas. I especially would not piss someone off who has the ability to detain me or make my life harder than it has to be. Those people should have been detained for the attitude they took with officers. You can be held for 24 hours with out charges being pressed I do believe.
Are you seriously fine with having cops stopping you for no reason at all so they can ask you for your papers like it's 1950's Soviet Russia?
Goodburbon
07-07-2013, 23:23
Are you seriously fine with having cops stopping you for no reason at all so they can ask you for your papers like it's 1950's Soviet Russia?
Lots of people are. We are conditioned as a society to obey authorities without question from an early age, some people are happy to be sheep, and angered by those who question why.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
Are you standing up for the illegals? I have no problem answering that I am an American. And any officer of the peace has the right to ask you for your name and and to provide identification. .
And any American has the right to refuse to answer.
The first guy in the video is the best, BTW. LOL!!
Get a class A cdl. They can and will stop you for any reason they feel like for as long as they feel like and they will make it as painful for you as possible if you don't immediately comply. I did my time in the service and we were still required to give name rank and serial number to our captors.
Oh Jeez. Here we go again.
I don't know much about CDL, but it didn't look to me like anyone on the film was driving commercially.
Blanket stopping people is a violation of due process, and lacks the reasonable suspicion or probable cause required to interrogate, interview, search or seize anything or anyone. It seems pretty clear to me.
Honestly, at one of these stops, I would probably tell them I am a US citizen to answer that question, but that would be it.
I really liked the guy at the end, asking the officer all of the questions he was about to ask. Funny.
BuffCyclist
07-08-2013, 01:28
I drive through these quite often. There is another one about 25mi outside of my town on the way to El Paso (which is, as I understand, the largest or one of the largest drug crossing points in the border). There is another one about 25mi outside my town on the way to Las Cruces - this one I pass through multiple times per week - because you can drive from El Paso to Las Cruces to my town.
Half the time, when you roll up and slow down, they look at you and send you on your way (profiling at its best). Other times, they ask if you are a US Citizen, and a simple "yes" will suffice. Other times, they ask you to state your citizenship, a simple "USA" gets you rolling. However, a lot of the time, they have the drug dogs out sniffing each car and those days suck. Because while the dog sniffs the car, the agent has to ask you random questions to hold you for about a minute so they can perform the full search.
Some of the agents are on a power trip and it shows. However, most of them are very polite and friendly.
When I flew down here for my interview where I work now, I landed in El Paso, rented a car and drove out. When I pulled up to the facility, they asked me my citizenship and then if I would roll down the rear window on the rental suv. I did, and they started sternly asking why the back seat seatbelts were buckled. I told them simply that I had no idea because I just rented the car a few minutes prior. They had me pull over for the second search. I started getting very snippy with them because they were extremely rude to me and this was my first encounter with one so I had no idea what was going on.
Now that I'm a regular traveller through them, I've learned that if you simply roll down all windows when you pull up, turn off the radio and keep both hands on the steering wheel, a majority of the time they just wave you through. Then again, it could be that I'm driving a Mini Cooper and from the drivers window they can see the entire contents of my vehicle. Sure, they're an inconvenience, especially on Fridays when everyone is going through them and when they have the drug dogs, but I'm of the mentality that its faster to just answer their question and be on your way than put up a fight.
That guy asking if he was being detained a million times over, yes, yes he was being detained because he was failing to answer their question. If he had simply stated his citizenship, which doesn't hurt anyone, he would have been on his way. And that is regardless of the debate about the legality of it and whether or not he was legally required to answer, he was being detained for failing to answer their question.
If he had simply stated his citizenship, which doesn't hurt anyone, he would have been on his way. And that is regardless of the debate about the legality of it and whether or not he was legally required to answer, he was being detained for failing to answer their question.
The point is that he shouldn't have been stoped and questioned to begin with. At what point do you draw that line in the sand and refuse to answer?
Are you a US citizen?
Is this your car?
Do you haave permission to be driving it?
Where are you coming from?
Where are you headed?
How long are you planning on staying there?
What is your purpose for going there?
What is your profession?
How long have you done that profession?
Are there any drugs or weapons in the vehicle?
Has anyone else had access to the vehicle?
What is your relationship to the other person in the car?
Along with about a thousand other questions...
What about when they start asking your wife all the same questions that they just got done asking you?
What about when you have been sitting there for 45 minutes answering their endless list of questions?
I'm sorry...if you are not committing a crime then they have no reason to stop and question you about anything. AND you have no reason to have to answer any of these questions. This is out of line.
Understand..my father who is a Pastor and my mother had this happen to them when they headed out of Colorado to go perform a wedding.
BuffCyclist
07-08-2013, 04:17
I understand the logic that he shouldn't have been stopped to begin with.
From your logic in your last two sentences, here's a scenario (and yes, I realize there is always a what if to every situation) you head to the local park to walk your dog while open carrying. A police officer sees you and starts asking questions. You are not committing a crime, so from your logic, there is no reason to answer? Or is the problem just with DHS/BP questioning you?
And I would draw a line in the sand when they start putting these checkpoints in KS and other states no where near the border.
eta: I knew I'd receive flak for my first post. However, I am also not the type to open carry and be showy/belligerent with cops just because I have the right to open carry so I see no harm in answering the question where I currently live. If they start putting these checkpoints in CO and places further away from the border, yes, there will be things to be said.
DHS does not have the right to do this.
Am I being detained?
They are detaining people without probable cause. DHS does not have reasonable suspicion, they are just harassing people.
Illegal search - violation of the 4th amendment.
TheBelly
07-08-2013, 06:59
From your logic in your last two sentences, here's a scenario (and yes, I realize there is always a what if to every situation) you head to the local park to walk your dog while open carrying. A police officer sees you and starts asking questions. You are not committing a crime, so from your logic, there is no reason to answer? Or is the problem just with DHS/BP questioning you?
If they start putting these checkpoints in CO and places further away from the border, yes, there will be things to be said.
Please help me out with the magical 'appropriate' distance required to where you would start not answering questions. I'm seriously not trying to be a smart-aleck, I just would like to know your opinion about where is the appropriate distance for that.
For me, it's zero feet inside the American border. Unless you actually see me crossing the border illegally, leave me alone when I'm driving down the road.
This is just the beginning, DHS will find a reason to stop and search here in Denver.
It is the natural course of totalitarianism.
This is just the beginning, DHS will find a reason to stop and search here in Denver.
It is the natural course of totalitarianism.
Using the logic that they have already applied, they could set up a checkpoint anywhere that there are illegal immigrants... so everywhere. My question is what are they going to do when an illegal immigrant just says "yes" to the are you a US citizen question? Are they going to say "I don't believe you" and pull them out of the car? What could they possibly gain from these checkpoints? Are there a lot of people that say no and admit that they are here illegally? The whole thing is stupid, but the good news is that this is being seen as a freedoms violation on all sides of the political spectrum and has become popular to challenge them. There have been a bunch of these videos on reddit as well as other social media sites.
I don't get the border thing... They have scanners that check with x-rays or some shit like that for certain shaped containers, and cargo.... why not just put one up at the border to check for random people stuffed in odd spots? I also don't think that border crossings are the same as DUI check points. There is actually tons of shit that makes it across the border because the agents don't catch whoever for whatever reason (seen some of the shit that makes it here in person < they ended up getting caught with it all for other reasons though.....). If you come back from another country, I do believe you should get stopped, and checked. If you don't like it, fly there instead.
For those scared about illegal's, and check points, why are you thinking that there are going to be other check points elsewhere? If you remember, there is a final vote that we are waiting on that is supposed to make them "legal" now anyway..... See, if it passes, no worries. lol < sarcasm
However, I am also not the type to open carry and be showy/belligerent with cops just because I have the right to open carry so I see no harm in answering the question where I currently live.
When did it become belligerent to simply exercise your rights? I only watched the first few minutes of the video but didn't see anybody being belligerent, including the border patrol agents. If we don't demand that the .gov honor our rights they will just disappear like has happened with gun rights in the big cities.
Using the logic that they have already applied, they could set up a checkpoint anywhere that there are illegal immigrants... so everywhere. My question is what are they going to do when an illegal immigrant just says "yes" to the are you a US citizen question? Are they going to say "I don't believe you" and pull them out of the car? What could they possibly gain from these checkpoints? Are there a lot of people that say no and admit that they are here illegally? The whole thing is stupid, but the good news is that this is being seen as a freedoms violation on all sides of the political spectrum and has become popular to challenge them. There have been a bunch of these videos on reddit as well as other social media sites.
Yes, there are illegals everywhere due to lax border enforcement. The enemies of freedon plan for the long term, it wouldn't surprise me if they decided decades ago to use illegal immigration as a way to enable these checkpoints now.
None of these gun control laws or "illegal alien checkpoints" or "DUI checkpoints" are intended for the good of the citizens, these laws and activities are intended to gain control of and sow distrust within the citizenry. DHS wants to cow Americans into thinking that the government is the only thing they can trust and they'll use your friends and neighbors to do it.
HoneyBadger
07-08-2013, 08:46
Oh Jeez. Here we go again.
I don't know much about CDL, but it didn't look to me like anyone on the film was driving commercially.
Blanket stopping people is a violation of due process, and lacks the reasonable suspicion or probable cause required to interrogate, interview, search or seize anything or anyone. It seems pretty clear to me.
Honestly, at one of these stops, I would probably tell them I am a US citizen to answer that question, but that would be it.
I really liked the guy at the end, asking the officer all of the questions he was about to ask. Funny.
Thanks J for the informative post.
DHS does not have the right to do this.
They are detaining people without probable cause. DHS does not have reasonable suspicion, they are just harassing people.
Illegal search - violation of the 4th amendment.
Correct! 4th amendment violations all over the place!
Border patrol belongs at the border. If they are not in sight of the border, they are wrong.
DHS is just a front for the slide into totalitarianism.
Freedom of movement is a double-edged sword, the good is that the citizen is allowed ingress/egress to any state in the union, the bad is that the criminal element is allowed the same. The 'crats who run law enforcement in this country are too lazy to prosecute the criminal element so they tell their foot soldiers to harass the easy target, the law abiding citizen.
Federal law enforcement has utterly failed the citizen starting at the border. The federal government has utterly failed at one of the few tasks they are specifically charged with and that task is defending the borders. We have no country if we do not have borders or border control.
There are people who want to dissolve the borders and allow complete freedom of movement between Mexico and the United States. The confusion I have is that on one hand the federal government does not want to control the border and on the other hand they want to control the movements of citizens within the nation. The national policy is directed at law abiding citizens and not at the criminal element.
I drive through these quite often. There is another one about 25mi outside of my town on the way to El Paso (which is, as I understand, the largest or one of the largest drug crossing points in the border). There is another one about 25mi outside my town on the way to Las Cruces - this one I pass through multiple times per week - because you can drive from El Paso to Las Cruces to my town.
Half the time, when you roll up and slow down, they look at you and send you on your way (profiling at its best). Other times, they ask if you are a US Citizen, and a simple "yes" will suffice. Other times, they ask you to state your citizenship, a simple "USA" gets you rolling. However, a lot of the time, they have the drug dogs out sniffing each car and those days suck. Because while the dog sniffs the car, the agent has to ask you random questions to hold you for about a minute so they can perform the full search.
Some of the agents are on a power trip and it shows. However, most of them are very polite and friendly.
When I flew down here for my interview where I work now, I landed in El Paso, rented a car and drove out. When I pulled up to the facility, they asked me my citizenship and then if I would roll down the rear window on the rental suv. I did, and they started sternly asking why the back seat seatbelts were buckled. I told them simply that I had no idea because I just rented the car a few minutes prior. They had me pull over for the second search. I started getting very snippy with them because they were extremely rude to me and this was my first encounter with one so I had no idea what was going on.
Now that I'm a regular traveller through them, I've learned that if you simply roll down all windows when you pull up, turn off the radio and keep both hands on the steering wheel, a majority of the time they just wave you through. Then again, it could be that I'm driving a Mini Cooper and from the drivers window they can see the entire contents of my vehicle. Sure, they're an inconvenience, especially on Fridays when everyone is going through them and when they have the drug dogs, but I'm of the mentality that its faster to just answer their question and be on your way than put up a fight.
That guy asking if he was being detained a million times over, yes, yes he was being detained because he was failing to answer their question. If he had simply stated his citizenship, which doesn't hurt anyone, he would have been on his way. And that is regardless of the debate about the legality of it and whether or not he was legally required to answer, he was being detained for failing to answer their question.
Your right, being a lemming is the quickest way and normally the path i go too. These people are just flexing their rights and that is great. The reason he is asking if he is being detained is because they can not detain him without probable cause. Not sure how true this is but a person that was in law school at the time told me there is a loose time limit, 5 minutes, on how long they can impend your travel without probably cause before you can bring legal action against them.
JM Ver. 2.0
07-08-2013, 11:38
I love these threads.....
Hypocrisy at it's finest.....
Sent from my teepee using smoke signals.
BREATHER
07-08-2013, 11:55
I wonder if anybody anywhere wonders anything.... If anyone thought about,,,, why isn't the border shut down, why isn't there any better border security ???? Because if our American borders were secure "they" would not be able to have these lame DHS stop check points. "They" have to have a reason do be able to explain why there are illegal stops without due process. After all the lying that seems to be going on, does anyone wonder how many schemers work for "the man".......
Using the logic that they have already applied, they could set up a checkpoint anywhere that there are illegal immigrants... so everywhere. My question is what are they going to do when an illegal immigrant just says "yes" to the are you a US citizen question? Are they going to say "I don't believe you" and pull them out of the car? What could they possibly gain from these checkpoints? Are there a lot of people that say no and admit that they are here illegally? The whole thing is stupid, but the good news is that this is being seen as a freedoms violation on all sides of the political spectrum and has become popular to challenge them. There have been a bunch of these videos on reddit as well as other social media sites.
My guess is it's a trick to get them to say '¿que?' [LOL]
Seriously though, good for these people who make their lives a little bit harder by not simply replying 'yes' to bring awareness to constitutional rights. Of course it's easier when you're within compliance to simply state said compliance and go about your day. Doing what's right is sometimes harder and time consuming.
kidicarus13
07-08-2013, 12:19
Doing what's right is sometimes harder and time consuming.
And that right there folks is why Americans will slowly have their rights taken away.
HoneyBadger
07-08-2013, 12:29
And that right there folks is why Americans will slowly have their rights taken away.
Oh it requires effort? Nevermind. Pass the remote and let me know when my free Obamaphone gets here.
sellersm
07-08-2013, 12:33
Doing what's right is sometimes harder and time consuming.
Ain't got no time fo dat!
SuperiorDG
07-08-2013, 14:50
So if you are in a CCW holder and contacted in this manner do you have to show them your CCW (i.e. ID)? BTW Texas requires notification if contacted by LEO.
brokenscout
07-08-2013, 14:57
THey should put DHS at polling locations asking for IDs.lol
HoneyBadger
07-08-2013, 15:19
So if you are in a CCW holder and contacted in this manner do you have to show them your CCW (i.e. ID)? BTW Texas requires notification if contacted by LEO.
Are DHS goons LEOs?
THey should put DHS at polling locations asking for IDs.lol
Nope, can't do that. Might catch someone they don't want to catch.
The point is that he shouldn't have been stoped and questioned to begin with. At what point do you draw that line in the sand and refuse to answer?
Are you a US citizen?
Is this your car?
Do you haave permission to be driving it?
Where are you coming from?
Where are you headed?
How long are you planning on staying there?
What is your purpose for going there?
What is your profession?
How long have you done that profession?
Are there any drugs or weapons in the vehicle?
Has anyone else had access to the vehicle?
What is your relationship to the other person in the car?
Along with about a thousand other questions...
What about when they start asking your wife all the same questions that they just got done asking you?
What about when you have been sitting there for 45 minutes answering their endless list of questions?
I'm sorry...if you are not committing a crime then they have no reason to stop and question you about anything. AND you have no reason to have to answer any of these questions. This is out of line.
Understand..my father who is a Pastor and my mother had this happen to them when they headed out of Colorado to go perform a wedding.
Exactly..
Are you a citizen?
Do you have anyone else in the trunk?
Do you have any weapons in the vehicle?
Do you have any high capacity magazines?
Fuck that. Just to be clear, these stops were not at the border, right?
ps, the last guy was funny too. Do you have ID on you? Where are YOU headed? etc
Your right, being a lemming is the quickest way and normally the path i go too. These people are just flexing their rights and that is great. The reason he is asking if he is being detained is because they can not detain him without probable cause. Not sure how true this is but a person that was in law school at the time told me there is a loose time limit, 5 minutes, on how long they can impend your travel without probably cause before you can bring legal action against them.
I saw a website or video somewhere where a lawyer explains exactly what you do and do not have to do when you are confronted by a LEO.. wish I could find it again.
Found something on the ACLU site:
YOUR RIGHTS
- You have the right to remain silent. If you wish to exercise that right, say so out loud.
- You have the right to refuse to consent to a search of yourself, your car or your home.
- If you are not under arrest, you have the right to calmly leave.
- You have the right to a lawyer if you are arrested. Ask for one immediately.
- Regardless of your immigration or citizenship status, you have constitutional rights.
YOUR RESPONSIBILITIES
- Do stay calm and be polite.
- Do not interfere with or obstruct the police.
- Do not lie or give false documents.
- Do prepare yourself and your family in case you are arrested.
- Do remember the details of the encounter.
- Do file a written complaint or call your local ACLU if you feel your rights have been violated.
IF YOU ARE STOPPED FOR QUESTIONING
Stay calm. Don't run. Don't argue, resist or obstruct the police, even if you are innocent or police are violating your rights. Keep your hands where police can see them.
Ask if you are free to leave. If the officer says yes, calmly and silently walk away. If you are under arrest, you have a right to know why.
You have the right to remain silent and cannot be punished for refusing to answer questions. If you wish to remain silent, tell the officer out loud. In some states, you must give your name if asked to identify yourself.
You do not have to consent to a search of yourself or your belongings, but police may "pat down" your clothing if they suspect a weapon. You should not physically resist, but you have the right to refuse consent for any further search. If you do consent, it can affect you later in court.
IF YOU ARE STOPPED IN YOUR CAR
Stop the car in a safe place as quickly as possible. Turn off the car, turn on the internal light, open the window part way and place your hands on the wheel.
Upon request, show police your driver's license, registration and proof of insurance.
If an officer or immigration agent asks to look inside your car, you can refuse to consent to the search. But if police believe your car contains evidence of a crime, your car can be searched without your consent.
Both drivers and passengers have the right to remain silent. If you are a passenger, you can ask if you are free to leave. If the officer says yes, sit silently or calmly leave. Even if the officer says no, you have the right to remain silent.
IF YOU ARE QUESTIONED ABOUT YOUR IMMIGRATION STATUS
You have the right to remain silent and do not have to discuss your immigration or citizenship status with police, immigration agents or any other officials. You do not have to answer questions about where you were born, whether you are a U.S. citizen, or how you entered the country. (Separate rules apply at international borders and airports, and for individuals on certain nonimmigrant visas, including tourists and business travelers.)
If you are not a U.S. citizen and an immigration agent requests your immigration papers, you must show them if you have them with you. If you are over 18, carry your immigration documents with you at all times. If you do not have immigration papers, say you want to remain silent.
Do not lie about your citizenship status or provide fake documents.
IF THE POLICE OR IMMIGRATION AGENTS COME TO YOUR HOME
If the police or immigration agents come to your home, you do not have to let them in unless they have certain kinds of warrants.
Ask the officer to slip the warrant under the door or hold it up to the window so you can inspect it. A search warrant allows police to enter the address listed on the warrant, but officers can only search the areas and for the items listed. An arrest warrant allows police to enter the home of the person listed on the warrant if they believe the person is inside. A warrant of removal/deportation (ICE warrant) does not allow officers to enter a home without consent.
Even if officers have a warrant, you have the right to remain silent. If you choose to speak to the officers, step outside and close the door.
IF YOU ARE CONTACTED BY THE FBI
If an FBI agent comes to your home or workplace, you do not have to answer any questions. Tell the agent you want to speak to a lawyer first.
If you are asked to meet with FBI agents for an interview, you have the right to say you do not want to be interviewed. If you agree to an interview,have a lawyer present. You do not have to answer any questions you feel uncomfortable answering, and can say that you will only answer questions on a specific topic.
IF YOU ARE ARRESTED
Do not resist arrest, even if you believe the arrest is unfair.
Say you wish to remain silent and ask for a lawyer immediately. Don't give any explanations or excuses. If you can't pay for a lawyer, you have the right to a free one. Don't say anything, sign anything or make any decisions without a lawyer.
You have the right to make a local phone call. The police cannot listen if you call a lawyer.
Prepare yourself and your family in case you are arrested. Memorize the phone numbers of your family and your lawyer. Make emergency plans if you have children or take medication.
Special considerations for non-citizens:
- Ask your lawyer about the effect of a criminal conviction or plea on your immigration status.
- Don't discuss your immigration status with anyone but your lawyer.
- While you are in jail, an immigration agent may visit you. Do not answer questions or sign anything before talking to a lawyer.
- Read all papers fully. If you do not understand or cannot read the papers, tell the officer you need an interpreter.
IF YOU ARE TAKEN INTO IMMIGRATION (OR "ICE") CUSTODY
You have the right to a lawyer, but the government does not have to provide one for you. If you do not have a lawyer, ask for a list of free or low-cost legal services.
You have the right to contact your consulate or have an officer inform the consulate of your arrest.
Tell the ICE agent you wish to remain silent. Do not discuss your immigration status with anyone but your lawyer.
Do not sign anything, such as a voluntary departure or stipulated removal, without talking to a lawyer. If you sign, you may be giving up your opportunity to try to stay in the U.S.
Remember your immigration number ("A" number) and give it to your family. It will help family members locate you.
Keep a copy of your immigration documents with someone you trust.
IF YOU FEEL YOUR RIGHTS HAVE BEEN VIOLATED
Remember: police misconduct cannot be challenged on the street.Don't physically resist officers or threaten to file a complaint.
Write down everything you remember, including officers' badge and patrol car numbers, which agency the officers were from, and any other details. Get contact information for witnesses. If you are injured, take photographs of your injuries (but seek medical attention first).
File a written complaint with the agency's internal affairs division or civilian complaint board. In most cases, you can file a complaint anonymously if you wish.
Call your local ACLU or visit www.a (http://www.aclu.org/profiling)
Here is a complete booklet: "Know your rights"
http://www.aclu.org/files/kyr/kyr_english.pdf
DUI Checkpoints:
http://www.mcdonalddefense.com/2011/12/08/your-rights-at-a-dui-stop-sobriety-checkpoints-and-dui-roadblocks/
Border checkpoints:
http://www.acluaz.org/sites/default/files/documents/Checkpoints%20One-Pager.pdf
Travel Checkpoints and screenings:
http://www.americanbar.org/publications/gp_solo/2013/may_june/what_are_your_rights_screenings_and_checkpoints.ht ml
BuffCyclist
07-08-2013, 16:50
Well well well, after my previous posts, I figured EVERYONE would be screaming my name carrying torches and pitchforks! LOL
Before I reply, let me just say, that sure, the folks in the videos are exercising their rights and while being more freaking annoying than a 4yo asking for ice cream, I bet they only went through the DHS checkpoints once or twice. I guarantee that if you went through one of those 3 or more times per week, after a week or two, you would simply start saying "yes" or "USA". Hell, say "AMERICA, FUCK YEA!" (I know I've been tempted to say this a few times).
This almost goes right along with TSA groping. How many of you after going through the TSA security point at an airport started screaming you were being molested or crying for help when a TSA agent performed a pat down? I went through one with a knee brace and was limping, they asked if they could pat down the brace for "metal" I guess. I agreed, they simply touched the knee brace and that was it. Sure, their hands were a foot or two away from my junk and hell, their eyes were right there, but I didn't feel violated. (While yes, I'm sure there were agents who crossed the boundaries or were doing the pat downs disrespectfully, I am willing to bet the vast majority of them were not TSA agents to get to grope people).
Please help me out with the magical 'appropriate' distance required to where you would start not answering questions. I'm seriously not trying to be a smart-aleck, I just would like to know your opinion about where is the appropriate distance for that.
For me, it's zero feet inside the American border. Unless you actually see me crossing the border illegally, leave me alone when I'm driving down the road.
I don't know if I have an honest answer for you. I tend to be more compliant in all cases when someone carrying a gun, a badge (though I don't know if DHS/BP agents have an official badge) and handcuffs asks me a question. Perhaps its my prerogative to answer a simple question, whether its warranted or not, than to put up a verbal fight and risk getting arrested or anything else. Not that I'm saying a DHS/BP agent COULD arrest you, its just not a chance I'd be willing to take.
When did it become belligerent to simply exercise your rights? I only watched the first few minutes of the video but didn't see anybody being belligerent, including the border patrol agents. If we don't demand that the .gov honor our rights they will just disappear like has happened with gun rights in the big cities.
Am I being detained? Am I being detained? Am I being detained? Am I being detained? Am I being detained? Am I being detained? Am I being detained? Am I being detained? Am I being detained? Am I being detained? Am I being detained? Am I being detained? Am I being detained? Am I being detained? Am I being detained? Am I being detained? Am I being detained? Am I being detained? Am I being detained? Am I being detained?
Asking that over and over no matter what question the BP agent asks you is being belligerent and frankly, quite rude. If you don't want to answer their questions, the get your facts straight and know what laws/amendments/whatever they are violating by asking you the question and interrupting your travel.
Your right, being a lemming is the quickest way and normally the path i go too. These people are just flexing their rights and that is great. The reason he is asking if he is being detained is because they can not detain him without probable cause. Not sure how true this is but a person that was in law school at the time told me there is a loose time limit, 5 minutes, on how long they can impend your travel without probably cause before you can bring legal action against them.
I would be interested to hear of the time limit they can hold you without probable cause. If they were flexing their rights in refusing to answer the question, they could simply just state that they refuse to answer any questions, that it is a violation of their 4th amendment rights and unless they are being detained, they will not answer anything, then just sit there quietly. I'm pretty sure they'd get pushed through faster that way than pissing off the DHS/BP agents who are simply doing their job.
I can only speak for the area where I live, but honestly, a job as a DHS/BP agent pays very well for the area. Most people in my town (who aren't military or work at White Sands Missile Range - though quite a few of the WSMR employees live in Las Cruces) are uneducated and working at Walmart or other retail type jobs and not making a lot of money.
Now, if we are talking about DHS/BP checkpoints in Arizona, thats a different story. If I recall, they require you to show your drivers license or proof of citizenship. Or has that been overturned? Too tired right now to spend the time looking it up and I have quite a few work emails to reply to. I'll check back later for replies.
BuffCyclist
07-08-2013, 16:55
Are you a citizen?
Do you have anyone else in the trunk?
Do you have any weapons in the vehicle?
Do you have any high capacity magazines?
Fuck that. Just to be clear, these stops were not at the border, right?
ps, the last guy was funny too. Do you have ID on you? Where are YOU headed? etc
I have never been asked about guns or ammo either and I've carried my AR through while CC'ing.
Also, when you pull up to the stations, they have tons of cameras looking at the car. Quite a few of those are, I believe, IR cameras looking for body heat signatures in the trunk or else where.
As I said in my first post, when I went through one the first time, they were asking me ridiculous questions like why was the seat belt in the back row of seats buckled. I got annoyed and irritated and started giving snippy answers. When asked "Where are you headed today?" I said, "To a job interview". When asked for clarification, I said "Sunspot" - which is an unincorporated town in the mountains that no one knows exists unless you 've been there. When asked "Where are you coming from?" I said "Colorado". I kept giving one word answers until they let go. Sure, it was annoying, but I didnt' feel like I was being detained.
I have never been asked about guns or ammo either and I've carried my AR through while CC'ing.
Also, when you pull up to the stations, they have tons of cameras looking at the car. Quite a few of those are, I believe, IR cameras looking for body heat signatures in the trunk or else where.
As I said in my first post, when I went through one the first time, they were asking me ridiculous questions like why was the seat belt in the back row of seats buckled. I got annoyed and irritated and started giving snippy answers. When asked "Where are you headed today?" I said, "To a job interview". When asked for clarification, I said "Sunspot" - which is an unincorporated town in the mountains that no one knows exists unless you 've been there. When asked "Where are you coming from?" I said "Colorado". I kept giving one word answers until they let go. Sure, it was annoying, but I didnt' feel like I was being detained.
The very fact that you had to stop your car to be asked unconstitutional questions is the problem. That act in and of itself doesn't constitute containment but about as close as you can get. It's kind of the same as uniformed officers pulling over EVERYONE to ask questions to see if they get anything wrong... regardless of PC. It's pure BS and going along with it because you haven't done anything wrong is giving them permission to pull this kind of crap.
I opt out of scanners at the airport too. I'll be damned if I receive ANY level of radiation to make their job easier. You'll notice that the agents in this video kept saying the same thing too: make our jobs easier. I'm sorry but my duty as a free citizen of this country is NOT to make your job easier. I take that back... I'm not sorry in the least.
SuperiorDG
07-08-2013, 17:23
Hell, say "AMERICA, FUCK YEA!"
I now want to drive down there just to drive through and say this.
The stop may not last long enough to constitute an unreasonable seizure of the person without reasonable suspicion:
when a driver is stopped, the initial interaction with police may last only long enough to ask a few questions and determine reasonable suspicion. Reasonable suspicion may include slurred speech, an odor of alcohol, glassy or bloodshot eyes. If the officer cannot cite reasonable suspicion within that brief initial meeting, the driver should be allowed to leave.
The Supreme Court deemed that a car stopped at a roadblock is a seizure, but, if the purpose of the roadblock is to ensure the safety of all drivers, and the interaction is brief, then the seizure is not unreasonable. Sobriety Checkpoints are not meant to identify criminal behavior and are considered a part of regulatory law, not criminal law.
From the DUI link from Def90. I do not think there is a time limit set in stone but from reading the above it sounds like they get to ask a few questions and let you move along, if you answer them or not does not matter.
ETA: And i am almost positive you do have to ask if you are being detained and if you are free to go, otherwise it is seen as voluntary.
SA Friday
07-08-2013, 17:35
Randomly erecting checkpoints within the USA is bullshit. Big huge steaming piles of [pileoshit]. This is stopping someone and questioning them without probable cause. It's a fishing expedition and reeks of every government this country has stood against for over 200 years. It's a military state. Yes, the military restrict movement by many means both on and off of installations. They do this through checkpoints, uniforms, and other means. We are NOT living in a military state. DUI checkpoints are typically erected in city areas around bars and have show a history of DUI's in that area and time. DING DING DING, no longer a fishing expedition. There is solid reason to suspect future criminal activity. This is like putting up a checkpoint up from 0700 to 2000 on HWY 86 between Kiowa and Limon and calling it a DUI checkpoint. I'm not at all surprised people are doing this.
I'm not at all surprised people who are dealing with this regularly are complying to avoid losing time over it.
ImNtUrBuddyGuy
07-08-2013, 17:40
Get a class A cdl. They can and will stop you for any reason they feel like for as long as they feel like and they will make it as painful for you as possible if you don't immediately comply. I did my time in the service and we were still required to give name rank and serial number to our captors.
So the US is a war zone now? Last time I checked someone getting pulled over is not the equivalent of being an enemy combatant.
Don't get me wrong, I believe in being kind and courteous to police officers and most of the time these guys are just doing their job--I just don't like the idea of having random checkpoint everywhere, it reeks of police statism and is a clear violation of the 4th Amendment.
BuffCyclist
07-08-2013, 17:46
Randomly erecting checkpoints within the USA is bullshit. Big huge steaming piles of [pileoshit]. This is stopping someone and questioning them without probable cause. It's a fishing expedition and reeks of every government this country has stood against for over 200 years. It's a military state. Yes, the military restrict movement by many means both on and off of installations. They do this through checkpoints, uniforms, and other means. We are NOT living in a military state. DUI checkpoints are typically erected in city areas around bars and have show a history of DUI's in that area and time. DING DING DING, no longer a fishing expedition. There is solid reason to suspect future criminal activity. This is like putting up a checkpoint up from 0700 to 2000 on HWY 86 between Kiowa and Limon and calling it a DUI checkpoint. I'm not at all surprised people are doing this.
I'm not at all surprised people who are dealing with this regularly are complying to avoid losing time over it.
And these questionable DHS/BP checkpoints are located some distance from the border. Yes, I would have a much larger problem with them if they were in KS, CO or other in-land states no where near a border. NM is right next to the border. El Paso is one of the, if not the, largest drug entry port into the USA. 30 miles or whatever the number is, is not unreasonable in my opinion.
For the record, while sitting in line and waiting to pass through the checkpoint once, I saw a drug bust where the drug dog was going apeshit and when they popped the trunk they found two duffelbags of something. Okay, well I don't know it was a drug bust, but I assume it was because they drew down and arrested the guy right there. They opened a second lane for traffic while all of this was going down and moved traffic over slowly (as they left the guys car right there).
BuffCyclist
07-08-2013, 17:48
So the US is a war zone now? Last time I checked someone getting pulled over is not the equivalent of being an enemy combatant.
Don't get me wrong, I believe in being kind and courteous to police officers and most of the time these guys are just doing their job--I just don't like the idea of having random checkpoint everywhere, it reeks of police statism and is a clear violation of the 4th Amendment.
Somewhat quoting the guy you quoted with a CDL. I have a Class B CDL with HazMat endorsement. I had to pass through both and FBI and TSA background check to get the HazMat endorsement. When I go to the airport, I should be able to flash my DL that has the HazMat Endorsement and walk right through security. After all, its what the TSA agents get to do, so why can't I? I passed the SAME background check the TSA agents have to pass to become employed by the TSA.
BuffCyclist
07-08-2013, 17:54
Putting the ethics/legality of these checkpoints aside, I'm curious, am I the only person posting in this thread who has actually TRAVELLED through one of these DHS/BP checkpoints?
And I haven't just travelled through it once or twice. I drove over to Las Cruces 3 times per week both Fall and Spring semesters (well, averaged about 2.5 times as work sometimes prevented me from going over there) and multiple weekends with my Fiancee. I have to pass through the checkpoint right next to White Sands National Monument coming home from Las Cruces.
Also, at least 5 times heading home from the airport in El Paso. If I had to make up a number, I would say I have gone through them at least 75 times.
Am I being detained?
Asking that over and over no matter what question the BP agent asks you is being belligerent and frankly, quite rude. If you don't want to answer their questions, the get your facts straight and know what laws/amendments/whatever they are violating by asking you the question and interrupting your travel.
The agent never answered the very pertinent question that was being asked. The citizen needed to know the answer in order to be able to either leave or exercise their 5th amendment rights. I guess that I would have to say that the agent ignoring the question that was being repeatedly asked was acting in a belligerent manner as well.
BuffCyclist
07-08-2013, 18:35
The agent never answered the very pertinent question that was being asked. The citizen needed to know the answer in order to be able to either leave or exercise their 5th amendment rights. I guess that I would have to say that the agent ignoring the question that was being repeatedly asked was acting in a belligerent manner as well.
True, its a question standoff. Neither person wants to answer the others' question or they'll show weakness. But the DHS/BP agent has a gun...
Putting the ethics/legality of these checkpoints aside, I'm curious, am I the only person posting in this thread who has actually TRAVELLED through one of these DHS/BP checkpoints?.
I've been through the drug checkpoints they set up in North and (mostly) South Carolina on several occasions while driving to visit my dad. I see no reason to stop travelers on an interstate freeway with a checkpoint for anything without specific knowledge or evidence of a crime being committed.
True, its a question standoff. Neither person wants to answer the others' question or they'll show weakness. But the DHS/BP agent has a gun...
....And a sworn duty to uphold the US Constitution. Only one person in that situation has a duty to give in and only one person in that situation relies on lack of awareness of one's rights to do his job. Seems legit.
How long before DHS moves from cars (an extension of your home) to your home?
You don't have anything to hide, do you?
That is the direction this is going, DHS has 70 years of Soviet intrusion to look at and see what works best or what can be modified to work better.
BuffCyclist
07-08-2013, 19:30
How long before DHS moves from cars (an extension of your home) to your home?
You don't have anything to hide, do you?
That is the direction this is going, DHS has 70 years of Soviet intrusion to look at and see what works best or what can be modified to work better.
Well, the TSA has already got this covered with their "See something, say something" campaign. Turns your neighbors against you and they'll rat you out if you are transporting a gun to your car. And your vehicle is not considered an extension of your home in all states. I know it is in CO and NM, but I believe I've heard there are other states where it is not because you can not carry concealed in your car without a CCL. [Dunno]
battle_sight_zero
07-08-2013, 19:32
In a couple of the segments it appeared that the vehicles were going through established border checkpoints. I dont have a problem with being questioned when going over any border. I do dislike random checkpoints but lets say were being invaded from a non hardened point.. However what really gets me angry is that nothing is really being done at our borders control illegal immigration or stop a potential threat from using it for access. Like this video it is freakin joke. I would like to see fences, sensors and security on our borders and also for our government to send people back who illegally enter. All these people to our Country sadly is a resource of cheap labor and potentially a huge new block of democratic voters. Secure the damm border and send the law breakers back. Reform immigration to the whole world and take the cream of the crop. Its an honor to be a American. Also did I miss something? The officers in this video were border patrol agents with arrest powers and generally pretty good officers who get their hands tied by nonsense. TSA is just a force of gropers and rejects I certainly would no cooperate with TSA on the roadways because they certainly are not law enforcement.
And your vehicle is not considered an extension of your home in all states. I know it is in CO and NM,
It is NOT an extension of your home in CO
BuffCyclist
07-08-2013, 19:46
It is NOT an extension of your home in CO
Really? I thought you could conceal carry in CO in your car without a license...hmm, oh well. Either way, I have my CCL and live in NM so it doesn't apply to me but thanks for correcting that if its true.
battle_sight_zero
07-08-2013, 19:48
It is NOT an extension of your home in CO
It is pretty darn close http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=7&ved=0CDgQFjAG&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.denbar.org%2Fdocs%2FYou're%25 20Under%2520Arrest.pdf&ei=82rbUaXCOoWzygHUkYHIBA&usg=AFQjCNE9RkgOG46FjhTdzGGp4Jl6PFobTQ
Really? I thought you could conceal carry in CO in your car without a license...hmm, oh well. Either way, I have my CCL and live in NM so it doesn't apply to me but thanks for correcting that if its true.
That's completely true, there's a separate law allowing that. You can also carry on any property you have permission.
It is pretty darn close http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=7&ved=0CDgQFjAG&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.denbar.org%2Fdocs%2FYou're%25 20Under%2520Arrest.pdf&ei=82rbUaXCOoWzygHUkYHIBA&usg=AFQjCNE9RkgOG46FjhTdzGGp4Jl6PFobTQ castle doctrine doesn't apply, not even close.
True, its a question standoff. Neither person wants to answer the others' question or they'll show weakness. But the DHS/BP agent has a gun...
Lots of people have guns, presumably we are all bound by the rules of law though. And it's not about showing weakness. If the agent had answered truthfully, that the motorist was not being detained, he knew that the guy would have just driven off.
battle_sight_zero
07-08-2013, 19:56
I did not quote castle doctrine. My link is from the Denver Bar Association that includes tips if you are contacted by police. Never consent to a search never. Be polite and respectful to the officer but do not consent. I feel they gave some good advice and dont see a problem with it http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=7&ved=0CDgQFjAG&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.denbar.org%2Fdocs%2FYou're%25 20Under%2520Arrest.pdf&ei=82rbUaXCOoWzygHUkYHIBA&usg=AFQjCNE9RkgOG46FjhTdzGGp4Jl6PFobTQ
I agree with the point, always be respectful of authority but if you know your right dont bend to it.
Really? I thought you could conceal carry in CO in your car without a license...hmm, oh well. Either way, I have my CCL and live in NM so it doesn't apply to me but thanks for correcting that if its true.
You can carry without a CCW in Colorado, but not because your vehicle is an extension of your home.
HoneyBadger
07-08-2013, 20:41
So this just about sums things up:
GgrX7uOZqHI
I did not quote castle doctrine.
I agree with the point, always be respectful of authority but if you know your right dont bend to it.I was making a counter point, not a reply on yours. Your point is valid but not relevant to the derailed discussion really relevant to the OP but we're on page 2 so we should be far off tack by now.
centrarchidae
07-09-2013, 00:10
From the DUI link from Def90. I do not think there is a time limit set in stone but from reading the above it sounds like they get to ask a few questions and let you move along, if you answer them or not does not matter.
ETA: And i am almost positive you do have to ask if you are being detained and if you are free to go, otherwise it is seen as voluntary.
Usually, a detention on reasonable suspicion (the so-called "Terry Stop") isn't subject to a time limit set in stone. 15 minutes was pretty easy to get, and anything beyond that had to be "reasonable" (there's that word again) in view of the totality of the circumstances.
Introducing an international border into the mix changes things. SCOTUS has held that actions taken in the name of border security within some distance of the border (50 miles rings a bell for me) can be permissible under the 4th Amendment, which would not be allowed to a police officer in Colorado or Nebraska or some other place without an international border. But I don't know if the time limit changes for immigration checkpoints.
Usually, a detention on reasonable suspicion (the so-called "Terry Stop") isn't subject to a time limit set in stone. 15 minutes was pretty easy to get, and anything beyond that had to be "reasonable" (there's that word again) in view of the totality of the circumstances.
Introducing an international border into the mix changes things. SCOTUS has held that actions taken in the name of border security within some distance of the border (50 miles rings a bell for me) can be permissible under the 4th Amendment, which would not be allowed to a police officer in Colorado or Nebraska or some other place without an international border. But I don't know if the time limit changes for immigration checkpoints.
The way i understand it reasonable suspicion does not fall under immigration or DUI check points. Just because it has been known to happen in an area before does not give reasonable suspicion you are drunk or an illegal alien.
And i did ask a lawyer friend of mine, you need to ask if you are being detained and if you are free to go because if you answer any question it could be seen as a voluntary hold on your rights. Don't the loop holes on your rights make you feel all warm and fuzzy? [Flower]
clublights
07-09-2013, 03:04
Somewhat quoting the guy you quoted with a CDL. I have a Class B CDL with HazMat endorsement. I had to pass through both and FBI and TSA background check to get the HazMat endorsement. When I go to the airport, I should be able to flash my DL that has the HazMat Endorsement and walk right through security. After all, its what the TSA agents get to do, so why can't I? I passed the SAME background check the TSA agents have to pass to become employed by the TSA.
You'd think it would work that way ... but that makes too much sense for the government.....
I've passed enough Secret Service checks to fill a file cabinet... I can stand next to the president.. but I can't just get on a damn airplane.
HoneyBadger
07-09-2013, 06:46
I've passed enough Secret Service checks to fill a file cabinet... I can stand next to the president.. but I can't just get on a damn airplane.
Lol I think there is a good number of folks here in similar circumstances. I'm trusted with more than 10 Billion dollars in very important government resources daily (I work with satellites) but getting on a commercial airline is still a pain in the neck... [facepalm]
(Not saying I should get special treatment because of my job or clearances, I just think its a bit ironic)
This is just the beginning, DHS will find a reason to stop and search here in Denver.
It is the natural course of totalitarianism.
^This...our "leaders" have been testing how many of our liberties we are willing to give up. They do it under the guise of public safty and most comply because its convieniant or because they are conditioned to comply.
I first noticed this with when they federalised the mall cops at the airport. I make the bastards pat me down every time I fly. I also let them know that they are in violation of the 4th amendment and are tratiors to their country. I don't buy the argument that "they're just doing their job" either. Everyone has a duty to refuse unconstitutional orders. If even 10% refused to comply they'd have to stop as it would slow travel and disrupt commerce.
The sheep goes bahhhhh...
clublights
07-09-2013, 07:14
(Not saying I should get special treatment because of my job or clearances, I just think its a bit ironic)
But you SHOULD get to skip the chat and grope the TSA puts out... I'm going to assume you've had a pretty high background check run on you to play with them kinda toys.... why shouldn't they give you a card or something that says: " hey piss off I'm a good guy"?
So should anyone else that can pass a secret or above background check. ( or whatever level they start the interviewing all your old friends and sometimes not so friends ... I had to do one for the ex wife..)
james_bond_007
07-09-2013, 08:38
.... why shouldn't they give you a card or something that says: " hey piss off I'm a good guy"?
...
This "Pre Check" program seems to be a step in that direction...a sort of "good guy" card/status.
http://www.tsa.gov/tsa-precheck/tsa-precheck-expedited-screening
Some states are offering a sort of "Good Guy" CCW endorsement that extends CCW privileges to allow CCW in courthouses, schools, polling places etc.
http://www.jacksonlewis.com/resources.php?NewsID=3972
Additional training is required, beyond that of a "standard" CCW, to obtain this endorsement status.
Sorry , in advance.. [offtopic]
HoneyBadger
07-09-2013, 09:45
So should anyone else that can pass a secret or above background check. ( or whatever level they start the interviewing all your old friends and sometimes not so friends ... I had to do one for the ex wife..)
Just about anyone without a history of bipolar disorder can get a Secret clearance. TS and above might be more appropriate... that's when they start doing personal interviews with all your family and relatives and anyone you've come into contact with in the past 14 years... lol
So we make a 'good guy' list and then it's just one more way someone could get around the system. Bad idea. How bout we just admit the system does nothing and shit can it as a whole?
brokenscout
07-09-2013, 10:46
Best idea,
So we make a 'good guy' list and then it's just one more way someone could get around the system. Bad idea. How bout we just admit the system does nothing and shit can it as a whole?
Best idea,
We'll return those millions of dollars wasted to the deficit and then if only we could think of a way to to have millions of feet on the ground in and around all potential threats to be armed legally and taking responsibility for their own safety and that of those around them. If only we had a huge army worth of civilians that were willing to do such a thing in the name of liberty and freedom. Hmmm.... how would we go about this... I know! We'll introduce MORE firearm restrictions on civilians and tighter control of firearms for those who have done nothing wrong! Yeah, that's it!
/sarcasm
hurley842002
07-09-2013, 11:10
We'll return those millions of dollars wasted to the deficit and then if only we could think of a way to to have millions of feet on the ground in and around all potential threats to be armed legally and taking responsibility for their own safety and that of those around them. If only we had a huge army worth of civilians that were willing to do such a thing in the name of liberty and freedom. Hmmm.... how would we go about this... I know! We'll introduce MORE firearm restrictions on civilians and tighter control of firearms for those who have done nothing wrong! Yeah, that's it!
/sarcasm
Great post!
brokenscout
07-09-2013, 11:26
lol
BuffCyclist
07-09-2013, 16:30
But you SHOULD get to skip the chat and grope the TSA puts out... I'm going to assume you've had a pretty high background check run on you to play with them kinda toys.... why shouldn't they give you a card or something that says: " hey piss off I'm a good guy"?
So should anyone else that can pass a secret or above background check. ( or whatever level they start the interviewing all your old friends and sometimes not so friends ... I had to do one for the ex wife..)
I don't see those sorts of background checks being all that good, the HazMat endorsement though...
Granted, WITH the HazMat endorsement you can get access to lots of really fun chemicals and radioactive waste, so yea, lets probably not let those people through without a mandatory groping.
Please save yourself the anxiety. The federal government does not operate under any pretense of rational, logical thinking. If you want to change the government, it will take lots of money, organization, and time (generations). This is what the progressives understand and they have put into practice. Just wanting to be left alone will not make the government stop, or go away.
I wish I knew a better way, because I would like to share it with you.
Be safe.
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