View Full Version : casting for the 300wtf/whisper/aac/fireball
buckshotbarlow
07-08-2013, 15:55
Ok, who here is casting for this thing on the subsonic level? Anyone running boolits through theirs with a can? I have 2 wtf's, 1 in an ar, and the other in a remmy700...
I'm looking at getting this mold:
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/938614/lee-2-cavity-bullet-mold-tl309-230-5r-30-caliber-309-diameter-230-grain-300-aac-blackout-tumble-lube-5-ogive-radius
I hate spending the coin the 220SMK's when i can damn near get the same performance through a boolit. So i checked out Magma, they have exactly jack shit for 30cal rounds, lyman has this one...
210gr 311284
Originally designed for the 30-40 Krag but has become the standard 30-06 bullet. Excellent accuracy
Anyone else out there doing cast for subsonics???
[Bang]
Just finished casting, powder coating and sizing a few this weekend. Hopefully will get some time to go test 'em out loaded this weekend.31283
I have been wanting to do this for a long time. Everyone says that it is unadvisable to cast for the blackout, but it is the only way that I can afford to shoot it as much as I want to. And everything considered, it is the best rifle I can think of to cast for. I have had pretty good luck with the 208 Grain amax, but that too is now fabricated from unobtanium and I can just sit here and look at my 300 blk boat paddle.
clocker, those look awesome. I would love to see some range tests with those. I want to see range test information for all of your powder coated bullets. The only thing that still concerns me is the possible deposit of powder coat on the inside of the barrel. Do you have access to a borescope that could take pictures? That way you could see before, after and after a good cleaning just to make sure that there are no problems. What mold did you use for those?
Unfortunately I don't have access to a borescope, but a lot of people report clean barrels and an ability to increase velocity without leading. There is a concern with lubed cast lead in suppressed applications due to fouling, but the PC should solve that. Here's another pic of a few different boolits that I am getting ready. I was fortunate enough to pick up a bunch of molds before folks made a run on that market.
31295
All Lee molds PC with some Eastwood powder and baked at 400 for 20 min. Then sized with Lee push through or Star dies.
TL430-240-SWC
452-255-RF
452-228-1R
TL356-124-2R
TL358-148-WC
TL309-230-5R
Do you powder coat then size them or under size and then powder coat?
Also what alloy do you use for the TL309-230-5R ?
PC first and then size. The PC is robust enough to stay attached to the lead and makes it so that you don't have to lubricate in order to size. I am just using reclaimed range lead for now. Got some WW and linotype for later if needed.
I have a whole bunch of reclaimed range lead that I have to clean up and make some ingots one of these days. I am really curious to see how it all turns out and how they hold up. I looked around for the TL309-230-5R and looks like that one is going to be a ways out for me. I think that I am going to go ahead and backorder one from Midway but they are not going to be around until October.
What size do you resize to? I see Lee push through for .308 and .309, and I am thinking of going in that direction.
309 would usually be better since the general rule of thumb is to go .001 over bore diameter. I sized these with a .308 though since it was on the shelf at the time. We'll see if it makes much of a difference.
I went ahead and ordered everything .309 sizer and 1000 gas checks. I might give powder coating a go one of these days. It looks like you live close by so maybe we will have to meet up and go shooting one of these days if they ever lift the damn fire bans.
buckshotbarlow
07-09-2013, 15:30
pure porn on those PC tips...
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?171403-Powder-Coating-Boolits/page1
sabot_round
07-09-2013, 16:45
I would also like to see results with the PC boolits since firing lead through a gas operated weapon is not a good idea. The combination of hot gasses, lead and lube accumulations in the gas system is just plain scary.
buckshotbarlow
07-09-2013, 16:52
I would also like to see results with the PC boolits since firing lead through a gas operated weapon is not a good idea. The combination of hot gasses, lead and lube accumulations in the gas system is just plain scary.
I'm going to give it a try...just gotta get my mold and some time..
sabot_round
07-09-2013, 17:23
I'm going to give it a try...just gotta get my mold and some time..
Tracking!! I'll be in Asscrackistan by then. I just want to see some results so when I get back to the land of the big PX, I can try something new.
Dont forget with those long bullets to let them cool a bit before dropping the bullets. They can bend/warp when they are still soft.
pure porn on those PC tips...
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?171403-Powder-Coating-Boolits/page1
Great I just spent the entire day reading that thread start to finish. I think I have an idea on how to get this going.
So the main problems that I saw throughout the thread specifically for the 230 gn 30 cal was that they would tip over easily and that they were hard to coat the grooves and base without creating a large deformed chunk of powder coat material around the base. This would make them very inaccurate. So I have an idea and I just want to see what you guys think. First I am going to be using the Lee mold and range lead with a little tin added.
My idea is to make them hollow points and make a peg board with little nails that fit in the hollow point. First I am going to cast my boolits and sort them very specifically based on weight. Then when I have enough that are as close to the exact same weight then I will size them to .308. Then I am going to tighten down my drill press and clamp a piece of wood to the base plate very securely. Then I will drill a hole as close to .308 as I can using precision drill bits. The runout on my press is not that great but is should be close enough to make it work. A 5/16 drill bit is .312 then I will spray a couple coats of paint in there until the boolits fit straight and snug. Without changing the position of the wood or the drill press I will swap to the smallest bit that I have. By not moving the press, the centerline of the axis should stay in almost perfect alignment with the center of the hole previously drilled and should allow me to make an accurate center hole in the tip of the bullets. I am thinking of drilling in there about 1/4 of an inch and setting the depth limiter so they are all the same, but I really have no basis for this number. Just what I thought would work well to hold the bullet securely when placed on the peg board.
The peg board is just a plate with nails welded to it spaced out to allow a bout 50 bullets to be powder coated at the same time. This set up will allow the bullet to be entirely coated and prevent them from tipping over while being coated and baked. I still have a while to wait for my mold to get here, but I might give it a try with some of my 9mm 124 gn and see how it goes.
I can not tell is if the hollow point will contribute to the projectile balance in a positive or negative way, but I figure it is worth a try.
buckshotbarlow
07-09-2013, 20:32
Great I just spent the entire day reading that thread start to finish. I think I have an idea on how to get this going.
at least i'm not the only one who spent the damn day reading about boolits...
buckshotbarlow
07-09-2013, 20:39
I was looking at the setups for pistol, and it looks like HP's are the way with a nail bed. The rifle tips, which are my priority will be hard, but I will probably use gas checks to fix the little base issue...
looking at this for my tips...
4% Tin, 12% Antimony, 84% Lead
tmjohnson
07-09-2013, 20:49
I cast and powder coat.
First I cast 50/50 range scrap and clip on wheel weights. I melt 30 to 40 pounds in one pot so my mixture will be consistant. I water drop my bullets when I cast, let them age 4 to 6 weeks before I powder coat.
My opinion if you have a properly tuned pistol, there is no need to powder coat pistol bullets. I also shoot a 200 grain Hollow point bullet in 45 acp and have no problem powder coating them.
FYI the pistol bullets I have powder coated shoot awesome and have a clean barrel when I finish.
Rifle bullets I cast are water dropped at casting and again after I bring them out of the over from powder coating. Then I resize bullets.
When I resize I add a gas check and put on blue angel lube. I push my 30 caliber bullets over 2000 fps and so far have no leading or powder coat deposits in my barrels.
Due to powder shortage I have been unable to do much experimenting with loads. So far I have 3 inch groups at 50 yards in my Rem 700 and 30-30 using Win 760.
I plan on trying Varget and H 4895 when I can find some.
Powder coating does take a little practice to get the right amount sprayed on.
I bought my powder coating gun and powder from Harbor Freight for around $85.00
Go
buckshotbarlow
07-09-2013, 20:54
crap, just did the numbers...
figure 16$ for the ingots, 1 6lb ingot will produce appx 180 tips (7000gr/lb, and divide that by 250 = 30 tips per lb then x 6). I was really hoping for more...damn, i guess it becomes an availability issue now, so to continue on...
6$ for the powder coat
60$ for the PC gun
10$ for the oven used
25$ for the mold
64$ for the furnace
32$ for 1k of gas checks
19$ for the sizing die
110$ for the compressor
geesh, when does it end???
buckshotbarlow
07-09-2013, 21:07
don't forget about the metal screen...
http://www.twpinc.com/wire-mesh/TWPCAT_12
buckshotbarlow
07-09-2013, 21:35
ok, now the question comes up...where the hell do u guys get your lead from???
ok, now the question comes up...where the hell do u guys get your lead from???
Where ever I find it. Medical equipment, sifting range lead, wheel weighs not so much any more, but there are places out there to find it. There are old lead pipes that people will literally pay you to take away if you become friends with remodel contractors. Then if you want to get the mixture to specific alloys the best way to do it is to buy some ingots from rotometals (http://www.rotometals.com/Bullet-Casting-Alloys-s/5.htm) and then alloy them with your lead. I bought just a couple of their super hard alloy ingots and some tin and it was enough to make over 100 lbs of 92-6-2 by weight. Powder coating solves most of the alloy issues as long as you maintain a constant alloy density which is not easy. With range scrap you will have to make a bunch and weigh them all individually to give you relatively constant performance.
Whatever you do stay the hell away from batteries.
Also there is always toaster ovens in good will. Saturdays are half off.
crap, just did the numbers...
figure 27$ for the ingots, 1 6lb ingot will produce appx 180 tips (7000gr/lb, and divide that by 250 = 30 tips per lb then x 6). I was really hoping for more...damn, i guess it becomes an availability issue now, so to continue on...
6$ for the powder coat
60$ for the PC gun
10$ for the oven used
25$ for the mold
64$ for the furnace
32$ for 1k of gas checks
19$ for the sizing die
110$ for the compressor
geesh, when does it end???
The costs do add up. But how long has it been since you bought a reasonable amount of projectiles? I still cant find anything for a reasonable price anywhere for anything. Then when you want to add another caliber your costs go down because you got the other stuff already. I have always said that reloading/casting has never saved me a dime. It just allows me to shoot as much as I can afford which is more than would have previously? There is always another tool or component that you need and you will never be satisfied. But I still make it out shooting all the time and that is good enough for me.
buckshotbarlow
07-10-2013, 07:46
The costs do add up. But how long has it been since you bought a reasonable amount of projectiles? I still cant find anything for a reasonable price anywhere for anything. Then when you want to add another caliber your costs go down because you got the other stuff already. I have always said that reloading/casting has never saved me a dime. It just allows me to shoot as much as I can afford which is more than would have previously? There is always another tool or component that you need and you will never be satisfied. But I still make it out shooting all the time and that is good enough for me.
Well, considering i still have 500 220gr SMK's and 1k of 240gr smk i'm good to go, but i'm a hoarder, and those are my little precious`s. I have over 1k of the lighter stuff so no worries there...My fear is replacing those little bundles of joy!
my 1050 and 550 have paid for themselves both more than once so i understand the ROI. Now, if I only could get my sl900 to do the same damn thing!
buckshotbarlow
07-10-2013, 07:49
Danimal, thxs for the post on rotometals, midway is marking their shit up by 12$
buckshotbarlow
07-10-2013, 07:53
ok, newb question here...WTF is this...LEAD Pig Ingot (http://www.rotometals.com/product-p/55_lbs._of_lead.htm)
Let me know and I can try and get some lead. Know where there is a stash of a few tons. I imagined it all turned into bullets but casting two at a time I don't see it happening.
ok, newb question here...WTF is this...LEAD Pig Ingot (http://www.rotometals.com/product-p/55_lbs._of_lead.htm)
Not entirely sure about lead, but with iron there are wrought and pig ingots and the carbon content is the main difference. Wrought iron was workable iron ingots and pig ingots were only castable due to their high carbon and manganese content. I assume a pig lead ingot would have oxides and other impurities that would make it suitable only for casting but really that is all that you need anyway. Through all my experiments in casting, so far the actual alloy that you are using does not matter until you are pushing the limits. The only thing that you kinda need to watch is that you are maintaining a constant fluxed mixture or the individual grain weights will be all over the place. That is why this whole powder coating thing could be so awesome. It might take the place of the copper jacket holding a softer alloy together and balanced, and obtain low friction characteristics similar to molycoat but leaves your bore sparkly clean after you shoot it. Like the best of all worlds wrapped into one. But there are still a lot of variables and limits to be found before it is reliable.
tmjohnson
07-10-2013, 18:31
To find lead, go to the little mom and pop shops that are kinda cluttered and have tires piled everywhere. These kind of shops generally have wheel weights. Clean the iron weights up and take them around and trade for lead.
Also out of the way salvage yards are a good score, if you have a pair of pliers and a bucket.
These kind of places are really reasonable on price of a bucket of lead. I generally get a bucket for 20 to 25 bucks.
I scrounged hard all last year and have over a ton of wheel weights and range scrap with little or no investment.
You got to hustle these days
Just finished casting, powder coating and sizing a few this weekend. Hopefully will get some time to go test 'em out loaded this weekend.31283
You get a chance to take those out yet?
Also I just got the shipping confirmation on my mold and it should be here Tuesday. I was not expecting it until October but I guess they must have found one laying around in the warehouse or something. I would like to get a couple thrown at some point here in the coming week. Then I am going to build a jig to make them into hollow-points and a rack to powder coat them. I still don't have the powder coat stuff yet, and might have to wait a month or two to get it (just bought a new motorcycle). Would you be interested in trading some SR primers for use of your powder coating system for a batch? Also I bought the Lee .309 resize die, and would like to compare it to the .308 to see if that makes a difference either way for the coated bullets.
jreifsch80
08-04-2013, 20:41
So I've heard from plenty of people to stay away from batteries but why is this? Every time I see my old electric forklift I dream of all the cast bullets I can make (electric forklifts sometimes have batteries in the thousands of pounds lol)
So I've heard from plenty of people to stay away from batteries but why is this? Every time I see my old electric forklift I dream of all the cast bullets I can make (electric forklifts sometimes have batteries in the thousands of pounds lol)
The electrolytic process with the sulfuric acid creates all kinds of hazardous molecules that get trapped inside the reconstructed lead oxide layers as the battery is charged and discharged over and over again. The lead starts to look like a sponge and has all that crap trapped in it. Then when you heat it, hydrogen gas as well as other hazardous byproducts are released. Here is the general chemistry of a lead acid battery, but at any point the molecule can get trapped as the battery is charged or discharged. This is why the battery eventually goes bad.
http://www.green-planet-solar-energy.com/images/lead-acid-4.jpg
The sponge like structure could lead to small explosions just like if you had water in your mold. It seems like it should be easy, but after a ton of research it really is not worth it. Just getting the plates out of the battery itself is difficult because they are designed to contain hydrogen explosions. But if you did find a way to smash the lead out without coating yourself or your garage in the acid solution, the boiling off of other impurities will cause more lead to be released into the air than if you were just melting ingots. Similar to gas transfer of lead into the air when you are shooting. It is do-able, but given the other remaining sources of lead I would just recycle the batteries and take that money and buy lead elsewhere.
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