Home Invasion

[Squeeze]

A fellow co-worker recently encountered a male subject in his attached garage the other morning as he got ready to head out for work. He lives in the C-470/Belleview area. From what I gather...a very nice neighborhood. The white male, 30's, tweaker junkie had gained access to a few other homes that morning prior to gaining illegal entry into his garage. He did the right thing, called 9-1-1 and held the puke sack at gun point. I spoke with him yesterday and he's doing fine aside from being a bit shook up. He's a great guy with a big heart and served as a corrections officer for many years prior. I told him, "Why didn't you shoot his sorry ass?" He said, "You know Scott, the problem I had with it was knowing that every day as I got ready to go off to work, I would have to be reminded every day that I killed a man in my house." Now, as commendable as that may be, I told him I would rather be talking to him over the phone to ask how he is doing, rather than visiting him in the hospital or even worse...attending his funeral. I asked him how far away the suspect was, he replied, "About 8 feet". My heart sank to my stomach. That's way to damn close. He also informed me the guy was giving him a ton of verbal flak, racial comments, etc. and on top of it all, the suspect even threw some ceramic tiles at him while he was at gun point. Jefferson County deputies told my friend, he would've been 100% legally justified in shooting the suspect. Fortunately deputies were close by and ended up having to taze the suspect and fight with him to get him into custody. He told me, "In all my years, that's the closest I've ever came to taking another man's life".

He was lucky. Now, I know how many of us on the forum feel about this and please try not to bash on him too hard for his decisions. I've given him a stern (but fair) warning about never doing that again. Next time, take that damn shot! Had the guy somehow gotten the upper hand, he would've had free reign of the house and his wife who was still asleep inside. So, taking something positive from this; not only is it important to adquately train with your firearm, but mentally bullet-proof your mind for the moment of truth. A lot of people say, "Damn right I'd take the shot!" But until you've been there...I think it's pretty easy to say what you "would" do.

[KestrelBike]

Sobering thoughts, indeed. Thank you for the writeup.

[Dr_Fwd]

Wow, frankly I have no idea what my reaction would be in situation like this...

[GilpinGuy]

Holy crap. With my wife and kids in the house, I "think" it would've been hard not to plug the piece of shit. But I've never been in that position and hope I never will. I have gone over scenarios repeatedly and feel that I'd not hesitate, but ya know....

My wife's ex is a lunatic with warrants out for his ass and he has threatened to kill both of us repeatedly so I have had to prepare myself for this shit.

[USAFGopherMike]

damn.. that's scary. Did he feel "threatened"? Did he attempt to retreat? I hope holder and the rest of the gun grabbing dems read about this.

[BuffCyclist]

Wow, definitely makes you think about and remember to always be on your guard, no matter where you are or how safe you feel. Having never been in that scenario and having never seen combat, I think it would be hard for me to pull the trigger in that situation knowing full well he could cover those 8ft faster than I could draw my gun.

[USAFGopherMike]

I think he had the gun on him at 8ft.

[BuffCyclist]

I think he had the gun on him at 8ft.

Yes, thats the point of why it was so scary. A person can cover 21ft of distance faster than a person can draw a pistol from a holster. So 8ft is basically very scary! Unless he had his gun IN his hands as he was walking out the door.

[USAFGopherMike]

One more reason to believe in integrated safeties.. no flicking of knobs. Grab, pull, aim, squeeze, call meatwagon (grab shovel).

[Mick-Boy]

Situations like the one outlined by the OP, though anecdotal, can serve as excellent food for thought when considering your training regimen.

How much time do you spend training with your pistol at contact distances? When you train, are you dressed the way you do day to day or are you all tac'ed out? How much time do you spend training skills that are more/less likely (CCW handgun vs. chestrig and carbine)? Drawing and shooting while seated in your car with the seatbelt on? Working strong hand only while miming pushing a loved one behind you?

Not all bad guys are tweakers or idiots. They'll look for vulnerabilities and exploit them ruthlessly.

Think through your day. When are you the most vulnerable; Texting while you're walking out to your car in the morning? Leaning into your car to set your stuff down in a parking lot? Tired and heading into the house after a day at work? etc. Do what you can to minimize your exposure in those situations of course, but try to train with those kind of situations in mind.

[Danimal]

It is always easy to Monday morning quarterback, but the truth is that when you are in the situation things change. Given the situation I think that I would have handled things a little differently, mostly in that I would not have been within 8 feet of the guy. Keep some distance, maintain sight picture, tell him once in a no shit voice to lay face down on the floor with his hands behind his head. Then he has to make a choice and if he does not comply then he left me with no choice.

[sniper7]

Glad everything turned out alright for him. Definitely food for thought

[BREATHER]

What Mick-Boy said +1 ... AS law abiding hard working common American people, we just want to stop a perp, we just want to protect our loved ones and ourselves. If some shitbag gets killed committing a crime that is the consequence of their actions....

[ray1970]

Keep some distance, maintain sight picture, tell him once in a no shit voice to lay face down on the floor with his hands behind his head. Then he has to make a choice and if he does not comply then he left me with no choice.

This. The last thing I want to do is take someone's life. But protecting my family is on the top of my list of priorities. If he was inside my home it would probably be shoot first, ask questions later. But, the garage is a different story. I would never want to kill someone for trying to steal my property. Beat the living hell out of them maybe. But not kill them.

[Dave]

Situations like the one outlined by the OP, though anecdotal, can serve as excellent food for thought when considering your training regimen.

How much time do you spend training with your pistol at contact distances? When you train, are you dressed the way you do day to day or are you all tac'ed out? How much time do you spend training skills that are more/less likely (CCW handgun vs. chestrig and carbine)? Drawing and shooting while seated in your car with the seatbelt on? Working strong hand only while miming pushing a loved one behind you?

Not all bad guys are tweakers or idiots. They'll look for vulnerabilities and exploit them ruthlessly.

Think through your day. When are you the most vulnerable; Texting while you're walking out to your car in the morning? Leaning into your car to set your stuff down in a parking lot? Tired and heading into the house after a day at work? etc. Do what you can to minimize your exposure in those situations of course, but try to train with those kind of situations in mind.

Good ideas, I do practice with my CCW in the car while I am in the garage so the neighbors don't get all weirded out. Most ranges I go to won't let you draw from a holster but I'll try with the pistol on the table in front of me to see how fast I can sight in and double tap. I may use an old cell phone so I can get used to having to draw after dropping it.

[Great-Kazoo]

Situations like the one outlined by the OP, though anecdotal, can serve as excellent food for thought when considering your training regimen.

How much time do you spend training with your pistol at contact distances? When you train, are you dressed the way you do day to day or are you all tac'ed out? How much time do you spend training skills that are more/less likely (CCW handgun vs. chestrig and carbine)? Drawing and shooting while seated in your car with the seatbelt on? Working strong hand only while miming pushing a loved one behind you?

Not all bad guys are tweakers or idiots. They'll look for vulnerabilities and exploit them ruthlessly. No they are not, they are PREDATORS.

Think through your day. When are you the most vulnerable; Texting while you're walking out to your car in the morning? Leaning into your car to set your stuff down in a parking lot? Tired and heading into the house after a day at work? etc. Do what you can to minimize your exposure in those situations of course, but try to train with those kind of situations in mind.


Lets expand this some more.

My first question is, HOW did the perp gain ILLEGAL entry ? Has that access point been taken care of. reason i ask is....I will say he gained entry because the garage door was OPEN! The majority of folks with attached garages have a very bad habit of opening the door way before they leave. OR KEEPING THE DAMN THING OPEN ALL THE TIME.

Here's my challenge to all who reading or responding to this thread.
Take a walk around your neighborhood, not too far say your block and the ones immediately behind and across from your house.
Do this exercise 2X once in the am (as time permits) then one more time right before the dinner hour or afterwards. See how many homes have their attached, even detached garage doors open, Front, side, back doors open with nothing more than a cheap screen as point of entry. Notice the large window OPEN for all to see the big screen tv, kids running around, ability to see in to another part of the home.
Does your area have alley access?? if so are the entry ways in to your yard secure? If the answer is NO, WHY NOT? Do your kids (if applicable) know what to do / how to act if someone peers over the fence or starts talking to them?

I can go on with the numerous security / safety failures i see on a daily basis within qa 2 block area in thei neighborhood. ONE of the major issues is failure to keep outside lights on. I hear well electricity rates are high enough. REALLY? How much is the cost savings of lights off vs theft, kidnapping etc?.

One board member said after receiving a call knowing what they were doing? he turned the outside lights ON and kept them on all night. WHY only this time and not as part of home security / safety?

Install photo electric / sun sensor lights for out doors if you're that concerned. Motion detectors for the yard or other areas you really don't need all night illumination.

[HoneyBadger]

Thanks for sharing the story.

I don't think that someone trying to steal my stuff is worth the trauma and moral anguish of shooting and/or killing them. If someone wants to take my (laughably small) TV, then I'll wait for the police. If they show any intention to harm me or my family, the police will have the whole thing recorded over the phone and we can sort it out later. I would rather be judged by twelve than carried by six, especially knowing that I defended and saved my family.

Home security requires multiple layers of physical and psychological security, and those are worth your every consideration.

[Great-Kazoo]

damn.. that's scary. Did he feel "threatened"? Did he attempt to retreat? I hope holder and the rest of the gun grabbing dems read about this.

In response to this question along with the home owner being asked about using his firearm. The first thing one should do is Flight vs Fight. ESPECIALLY after the bomb throwers saying the martin SELF DEFENSE shooting was racially motivated. The home owner unless there are a few things missing in the OP could have retreated back inside till LE's arrived.
NO ONE HERE was onsite with the OP's friend so my last sentence is merely a suggestion or Plan A as it may be.

[def90]

It was his confrontation/situation and his decision.. He did what he felt was appropriate. I'm not going to bash anyone for that..

Besides.. you said he used to be a corrections officer.. that guy has probably dealt with a lot of shit at work and knows when someones a real threat anyway.

[kwando]

That is some scary shit right there... Talk about breaking your daily routine!!

[hghclsswhitetrsh]

I'm glad the guy and his family are safe.

+1 for what mick boy and Jim said.

I work in a not so favorable part of Denver, some pretty rough spots and I cannot ccw at work. That sucks. I have to constantly watch my back I am walking to and from my work truck in allies, sometimes at night etc and the worst part is I'm in people's houses which can be scary. I know people say concealed is concealed but it's not an option. The nature of my work and the positions I get myself into to reach things I cannot do it. My solution is formal training in bjj and Muay Thai, haters can hate all they want about that won't do shit against street thugs and being jumped etc etc., well it's my only option. There's no classes on how to fight with a fucking chain or tire iron last time I checked, and I'm too old to go hustle the streets and get my 'cred' up so no one fucks with me.

Sorry for the thread jack.

[OtterbatHellcat]

There are a lot of good points in this thread, and thanks for sharing it OP.

I'm glad your friend came out of it okay.

I would only add that you can shoot a stupid bastard without killing him....and if he started throwing shit at me after I told him to get his sorry ass on the floor at gunpoint???

*bang*

[Great-Kazoo]

There are a lot of good points in this thread, and thanks for sharing it OP.

I'm glad your friend came out of it okay.

I would only add that you can shoot a stupid bastard without killing him....and if he started throwing shit at me after I told him to get his sorry ass on the floor at gunpoint???

*bang*

That lawsuit and trial will crucify you in the court of public opinion. Do a search (cause i'm too lazy) on the lawsuit some skel filed against a homeowner years ago. He sued for loss of "work' claiming since he was now disabled, no longer able to break in to peoples homes, etc.

[sroz]

This. The last thing I want to do is take someone's life. But protecting my family is on the top of my list of priorities. If he was inside my home it would probably be shoot first, ask questions later. But, the garage is a different story. I would never want to kill someone for trying to steal my property. Beat the living hell out of them maybe. But not kill them.

^^^^ This.

[OtterbatHellcat]

That lawsuit and trial will crucify you in the court of public opinion. Do a search (cause i'm too lazy) on the lawsuit some skel filed against a homeowner years ago. He sued for loss of "work' claiming since he was now disabled, no longer able to break in to peoples homes, etc.

Seriously? and the piece of shit won his case?

This world really pisses me off sometimes.

[RMAC757]

I think about this a lot with my wife and daughter at home.....and yes I even train for it. At home (sometimes with a blue gun ) and scenario based range stuff. After reading this I've found that most all of my training ends in me pulling the trigger....muscle memory. I'm wondering if I felt in imitate danger within my own home if I would have the restraint to not pull the trigger. Some excellent food for thought as I would rather have a suspect apprehended and detained rather than blown apart in my living room or kitchen. I'd hope the violence of action with me screaming and shouting and the sight of a well aimed firearm would be enough to rectify the situation. Either the criminal running out of my house or being subdued enough until the police arrive. My family does have a plan and we go over it often.

[Jmetz]

Seriously? and the piece of shit won his case?

This world really pisses me off sometimes.

Seriously. There's multiple cases like the one Jim described. You don't shoot to wound..

[wctriumph]

A long time ago (before cell phones) in a state far far away (SoCal) I was in a similar situation, found a tweaker in my garage (he had pried the hasp off the jam) going through my tools. At that time I carried my 442 in my pocket and I immediately pulled it out but did not point it at him. The guys eyes went real big and he pissed himself on the spot and was just shaking so hard. I was blocking the only exit and could see he was confused as to what he was going to do. I told him to empty his pockets on to the floor which he did, even his drugs and kit. I backed up and cleared the door and told him to get the f*&@ out and never come back. I closed the door, went back upstairs and called the Hunting Beach PD and reported what happened (did not mention the gun as I did not have a permit), they said they would an officer out to take a report. I called work to say I would be late and waited for the police. I had to make two more calls and finally after just over 2 hours an officer showed up to take the report. I gave a description, the cop new the guy, he was a local addict but was considered non violent. The cop took the drugs and kit, placed them in evidence bags. I said I wanted to press breaking and entering charges and attempted burglary charges. The cop said he would put it in his report and the DA would make a determination as to whether any charges would be filed and he left. I had a heck of a time getting a copy of the report and when I did it said that the officer responded to a suspected break in, no witness statement, no evidence collected. Saw the guy again a couple days later digging the Jack in The Box trash bin.

Anyway, long story that just came flooding out, sorry. The point is, no reason to kill this guy, rights or not. I have been shot at brandished at and this was the only time I ever pulled. I never want to have to shoot anyone, ever. I can't imagine what my mental state would have been if I had killed that guy that day. If I had been woken up in my domicile and found him the story might have been different but, in my garage and unarmed with me having the advantage I chose to let him escape. I have been over and over this in my mind uncountable times and I believe if he had acted in a non defensive aggressive manner and come toward me I would have shot him dead. He was just scared so I let him go and called the police, they did not follow up for whatever reason.

Life and Liberty to all y'all.

[BushMasterBoy]

Makes me wonder if I could lose a civil case against me because of what I post here! Trayvon Martins parents got a million dollars from the HOA! We have the best justice system money could buy...

[Aloha_Shooter]

Shooting someone should always be a solemn decision albeit not one to paralyze you into inaction. Your friend got the guy off the streets without having to deal with blood on his hands or on his property. I'd say he did it exactly right. Good for him!

[centrarchidae]

Makes me wonder if I could lose a civil case against me because of what I post here!

YES!

Anything that you post on the internet, whether it's here or a facey-space or a tweety-page, if it can make you look bad, you can damn well bet that a plaintiff's attorney will find it and use it to argue that SD/MMD didn't apply because of you weren't in fear of serious bodily harm or you're a mean person who recites his own poetry in public and takes the last cup of coffee, or some damn thing.

This is also why so many employers crap cinder blocks when employees mention work on teh intardwebz.

[Colorado_Outback]

Makes me wonder if I could lose a civil case against me because of what I post here!

Yes.

I had a thread I posted here brought up in civil proceedings. I was less than amused.

[Ronin13]

Question on the Castle Doctrine part of the law:
Does garage count as part of the house/castle? You have no duty to retreat if you are inside your home/occupied domicile- if I recall the wording of the law correctly. So if the garage counts, then no, the homeowner doesn't need to run back into the house and wait for LE to arrive (and how long could that be? 12+min)- gunpoint or even shooting is justified (again, IIRC).

[TFOGGER]

Question on the Castle Doctrine part of the law:
Does garage count as part of the house/castle? You have no duty to retreat if you are inside your home/occupied domicile- if I recall the wording of the law correctly. So if the garage counts, then no, the homeowner doesn't need to run back into the house and wait for LE to arrive (and how long could that be? 12+min)- gunpoint or even shooting is justified (again, IIRC).

Attached garage has been ruled to be included in CRS18-1-704.5. I'm not aware of any precedent concerning detached garages either way, but maybe one of our legal folks can elaborate.

[glenncal1]

Jeez and I jumped about 10 feet straight up when one of those little brown garter snakes was in my garage one morning. I hope the cops had be very forceful arresting the dirtbag.

[Squeeze]

In my 3-day weekend, I avoided the internet to "decompress" a bit. I returned to this thread with great hopes to the positive responses I would read. I was very humbled. You guys are awesome. I have passed on many of your words to my friend/co-worker and he is grateful. I also agree with much of what has been posted - Jim, Ray, you guys especially. When I spoke to my co-worker about the experience after he has had time to re-cap it, he still stands firm in his decisions. I commend him for that. He did have the suspect at gunpoint the entire time and at the 8-ft. mark he had finger on the trigger with intent to fire. Once the suspect left his garage, he took his finger off the trigger and then closed the garage door as quickly as he could. It was a very scary experience and I hope none of us ever end up in that situation, but if we do...I hope we all come out on top whatever the choice(s) we make. [Beer]