View Full Version : Unisex Uniforms Debut As Army Opens Units To Women
GilpinGuy
07-29-2013, 01:43
LINK (http://atlanta.cbslocal.com/2013/07/28/unisex-uniforms-debut-as-army-opens-units-to-women/)
I'm certainly not against uniforms tailored for women if they're going to serve, but this jumped out at me:
"With narrower shoulders, a slightly tapered waist and a more spacious seat..." LOL Not too many hotties expected I guess.
http://i1018.photobucket.com/albums/af308/juanez3248/size0_zps86e52763.jpg
Mick-Boy
07-29-2013, 02:11
The funny (read as: Sad/Pathetic) was the line in the article I read that talked about how these changes might also be better for some of the male soldiers that aren't "built" to fit into the normal uniform....
stoner01
07-29-2013, 02:17
Hey I resemble that remark. Well, Im just short, so yeah.
GilpinGuy
07-29-2013, 02:25
Am I being a dick? This just sounds sad:
"The March debut of the Combat Uniform-Alternate is the first in a series of moves the Army hopes to make in the next three years to help female soldiers feel like more professional members, officials said."
Help them FEEL better? With a better looking wardrobe? Man.... I never served, but how many of you men who are now serving or who have in the past were ever asked how you looked in your uniform and how it made you feel?
Maybe I'm just an [ahole]
EDIT: and this is just "a series of moves"? What's next?
stoner01
07-29-2013, 02:35
Let them use all the make up they want while in uniform.
Mick-Boy
07-29-2013, 02:56
I'll caveat this by saying that I came up in the Marine Corps, so I was brainwashed early and often that looking professional and being professional are one in the same.
That being said, I do believe there is martial value to looking and feeling like a soldier. Whether you're in your dress uniform or utilities and body armor, if you look squared away (that means different things in each of those cases in my opinion) you increase your morale and are reminded that you're part of something bigger. Being part of a unit that looks and performs like a unit is an awesome thing.
I have zero objection to uniforms tailored for women. They're built differently.
When we start (and we did.... almost a decade ago) accepting poor appearance in our Soldiers/Sailors/Marines/Airmen because telling someone "you're fat and out of shape" will hurt their feelings, our military readiness is impacted. Seeing fat bodies in the military pisses me off. Seeing fat bodies in combat arms freaking infuriates me. Building uniforms specifically to accommodate those slipping standards baffles me in ways I can't describe.
stevelkinevil
07-29-2013, 07:10
Although I find this current trend of over accommodation not only stupid but dangerous. I am also a firm believer in "look squared away, be squared away".
stoner01
07-29-2013, 07:18
I have to admit, I feel better in a uniform than I do in normal people clothes.
ChadAmberg
07-29-2013, 08:07
Shortened the button fly? That'd get uncomfortable pretty quick...
LOL Item "J":
Repositioned knee pads.
:D
Sent via my Mobile Work Avoidance Device
I'll caveat this by saying that I came up in the Marine Corps, so I was brainwashed early and often that looking professional and being professional are one in the same.
That being said, I do believe there is martial value to looking and feeling like a soldier. Whether you're in your dress uniform or utilities and body armor, if you look squared away (that means different things in each of those cases in my opinion) you increase your morale and are reminded that you're part of something bigger. Being part of a unit that looks and performs like a unit is an awesome thing.
I have zero objection to uniforms tailored for women. They're built differently.
When we start (and we did.... almost a decade ago) accepting poor appearance in our Soldiers/Sailors/Marines/Airmen because telling someone "you're fat and out of shape" will hurt their feelings, our military readiness is impacted. Seeing fat bodies in the military pisses me off. Seeing fat bodies in combat arms freaking infuriates me. Building uniforms specifically to accommodate those slipping standards baffles me in ways I can't describe.
Amen! And yes, the whole fat bodies thing ticks me off too. Usually they're the least motivated ones (hence why they're either almost out of regs or out of regs but have a waiver). You probably wouldn't like being in/around a support/logistics unit- It sucked!
I have to admit, I feel better in a uniform than I do in normal people clothes.
Same here! [Beer]
LOL Item "J":
Repositioned knee pads.
:D
I thought the same thing! [ROFL1]
PFC Shiela: Does this uniform make my ass look big?
1SGT: No, your fat ass makes that uniform look enormous...
Cue harassment accusation..
Here goes.
If women want to act like men and fight like men, they should be built like men, and able to dress like men. If not, find a job more suited to your feminine nature.
If fat blobs of goo want to fight like men, they should be built like men...(same as above).
Why in the hell did we ever dream up the concept of a "Maternity Battle Dress Uniform?" Why?
I have seen some enormous Canadian uniforms, and believe we will be making (purchasing Chinese) our own soon.
Yes to dress professional - feel professional - act professional.
[Bang][Bang][Bang][Bang]
Inconel710
07-29-2013, 10:47
Well, you don't have to worry about fat bodies so much. The word I'm hearing around Ft. Carson is that Big Army is cutting troops and PT standards were one of the first levers they grabbed.
Why in the hell did we ever dream up the concept of a "Maternity Battle Dress Uniform?" Why?
Because you can still serve up until a few weeks before giving birth, and must maintain military bearing (thus be in uniform). I take it you've never served or you'd know that just because a woman gets pregnant, doesn't mean she stops being a soldier. And most women in the military don't want to act like men or fight like men. That's a dangerous assumption that the military is some masculine profession that's made for men and if you're a female who joins you must lose your femininity. There are a lot of non-combat related MOSs that are perfectly suited for women, and they can still be girly. This isn't the 1920's where men are men and women belong in girly jobs like working the makeup counter at Dillard's. I have the utmost respect for about 80% of the females I served along side. Hell, in Basic, our Iron Soldier (person with the consistently highest PT score) was a female- and she was a good looking female at that, not some masculine wildebeest. Sexist much?
3beansalad
07-29-2013, 10:56
Well, you don't have to worry about fat bodies so much. The word I'm hearing around Ft. Carson is that Big Army is cutting troops and PT standards were one of the first levers they grabbed.
That's been the word for more than a year now...
I knew quite a few female soldiers in my day that could seriously rock the old BDUs (and met a few Air[wo]men that made a flight suit look incredible as well.)
It's not about the uniform, there has long been a physical fitness standard in the military. If you meet it, the 'shape' of the uniform really won't matter much. Heck, when I was in there was a height requirement for my MOS, now long gone...
Mick-Boy
07-29-2013, 11:10
A woman who can look good in off the shelf utilities is going to be a hammer in civies. It's science.
stoner01
07-29-2013, 11:14
A woman who can look good in off the shelf utilities is going to be a hammer in civies. It's science.
And rare.
Because you can still serve up until a few weeks before giving birth, and must maintain military bearing (thus be in uniform). I take it you've never served or you'd know that just because a woman gets pregnant, doesn't mean she stops being a soldier. And most women in the military don't want to act like men or fight like men. That's a dangerous assumption that the military is some masculine profession that's made for men and if you're a female who joins you must lose your femininity. There are a lot of non-combat related MOSs that are perfectly suited for women, and they can still be girly. This isn't the 1920's where men are men and women belong in girly jobs like working the makeup counter at Dillard's. I have the utmost respect for about 80% of the females I served along side. Hell, in Basic, our Iron Soldier (person with the consistently highest PT score) was a female- and she was a good looking female at that, not some masculine wildebeest. Sexist much?
Served 21.5 years in the USAF. Retired as an E-7 MSgt in September 2008.
Sexist as hell.
I believe much of the problem with American society today is due to the fact it is no longer the 1920s where men were men and women were women and each was proud of that basic natural fact.
No, we are not all created equal - most misunderstood concept of modern time. Equality of rights is one thing, pretending we are all physically and mentally equal is entirely off base.
If a woman can do the job as well as a man - and I mean both mentally and physically, then fine. However, I have seen very few of these women.
When I call 911, I don't want Chrystal and Tina to show up for my rescue. If I call 911, I want the biggest meanest cops available to arrive.
If my house is burning down, I don't want Linda and Mindy to attempt to drag me out, I want the biggest meanest fireman available to throw me out.
MEN AND WOMEN ARE VASTLY DIFFERENT - BOTH MENTALLY AND PHYSICALLY - ON PURPOSE [Bang]
And, as far a Maternity BDU's, the name says it all. There are not 8 months pregnant women in "BATTLE," so they do not need to dress like they are. That also goes for the rediculous idea of everyong wearing BDUs, ACUs, or whatever the latest camo pattern is, when they are not actively training or engaging in "BATTLE." Same goes for the Satellite "Flyers" at Schriever and Buckley who sit behind a terminal in flight suits - F'n STUPID.
Meh...they are built different. They should have uniforms that fit. They represent the country and need to be comfortable and well dressed to perform. If they have too much extra material in the shoulder it could affect the accuracy or ability to shoot or hinder their movements.
I Dont see the big deal.
Served 21.5 years in the USAF.
...
And, as far a Maternity BDU's, the name says it all. There are not 8 months pregnant women in "BATTLE," so they do not need to dress like they are. That also goes for the rediculous idea of everyong wearing BDUs, ACUs, or whatever the latest camo pattern is, when they are not actively training or engaging in "BATTLE." Same goes for the Satellite "Flyers" at Schriever and Buckley who sit behind a terminal in flight suits - F'n STUPID.
First- maybe a different time you being an "old school" guy, but also (ribbing here) you have no room to define gender roles in the military as you're fmr AF... [Sarcasm2][LOL] I digress... women have a place in our modern military- some of my best soldiers in my PLT and Company were women, but then again, being a HQ unit, some of the worst were women. But you can't blanket fix that by saying women have no place in our armed forces... it has to be a case by case- the shitbags, regardless of sex, gotta go! So by your rules though, women have no place in any emergency services? Because they aren't equal to men? I know a few female cops are who are great at their jobs, despite physical inequalities. I also know quite a few female fire fighters who are excellent hose draggers. I don't care who shows up when I call 911, as long as they can do their job.
To your maternity uniform issue- women can serve in the military- it's not the 1920's, they can get pregnant and still serve up until delivery time, so get over it, it's not worth you getting bent out of shape about it. Your dismay won't change it, even if it is a dated opinion... I can almost replace gender with race in your arguments and you'll see how it seems incredibly silly. Oh, and women are still restricted from serving in direct combat arms MOSs- so pregnant or not, they're not going into "battle" (pregnant females are barred from deployment).
I have never had a problem with women serving in the military in general. There are plenty of jobs within the military that women are exceptionally qualified to perform. I do not believe women should perform any of the combat jobs, no matter how fit they are - it's not a woman's role to defend her country when there are still men around to do it. In the absence of men, absolutely.
Women in combat originated due to women getting passed over for promotion because of a lack of combat/deployment/flying experience. To me, that's not a good solution. Fix the promotion "requirement," but don't create a mess by encouraging/forcing women to meet a bogus requirement. However, the requirement exists because there is merit found in having leaders with combat backgrounds - this is the military we're talking about after all. Perhaps women should not be in these higher levels to begin with. There are plenty of non-combat jobs where women can be promoted to the highest levels.
As for Emergency Services, CSPD has had one single woman on their TEU/SWAT team since their start. She was quite the bad-ass. She was only about 5' 4", but could bench 240 lbs. Her position was everything to her as she felt she had to be better than the men - and was, in many respects. {MOD EDIT}
There are many more arguments as to why women should not be in combat roles - putting them in harms way despite their designated job (supply, truck driver, etc), is a load of Bee Ess.
To bring this thread back closer to its origin, I maintain that there is no need for women to have camouflage uniforms. They should not be deployed to any place that would benefit this appearance.
What's with the race card Ronin? Kinda came out of nowhere.
What's with the race card Ronin? Kinda came out of nowhere.
It was brought up by a female LT I had in the army (West Point grad, and one helluva leader IMO)... She compared the gender roles argument, as presented by usually older, sexist male service members (or even those who have never served, but weigh in on the debate regardless, which is stupid) that goes against women either serving altogether, or serving in combat roles/potential for being engaged in direct combat, to being akin to the inequalities in the fallacious argument against different races. Basically she said that saying women don't belong in certain jobs because they're "unequal" is not too different from the times when people said that blacks or Asians can't do things because they're unequal as well. Just exposing how I think it sounds dated and silly. [Beer]
It was brought up by a female LT I had in the army (West Point grad, and one helluva leader IMO)... She compared the gender roles argument, as presented by usually older, sexist male service members (or even those who have never served, but weigh in on the debate regardless, which is stupid) that goes against women either serving altogether, or serving in combat roles/potential for being engaged in direct combat, to being akin to the inequalities in the fallacious argument against different races. Basically she said that saying women don't belong in certain jobs because they're "unequal" is not too different from the times when people said that blacks or Asians can't do things because they're unequal as well. Just exposing how I think it sounds dated and silly. [Beer]
Oh, I see. Kinda like when gays attempt to use the validity of black's civil rights struggle as a comparison in order to legitimize their own "struggle." Got it.
The verbalization of the notion that men and women are not equal may be dated, but I'm pretty confident a cursory examination of the two genders would show that this is still factually accurate.
Oh, I see. Kinda like when gays attempt to use the validity of black's civil rights struggle as a comparison in order to legitimize their own "struggle." Got it.
The verbalization of the notion that men and women are not equal may be dated, but I'm pretty confident a cursory examination of the two genders would show that this is still factually accurate.
Yes, like the gay and black same kind of fight fallacy... [Beer]
I'm simply pointing out that yes, I agree, in combat roles women are at a physical disadvantage and it's probably a bad idea. However, saying that women shouldn't be wearing the uniform at all is BS. Or, as you said, and I'm mainly having a point of contention with that- women have every right to join any branch of armed forces, and due to physiological reasons, have the right to get pregnant and stay in as long as they are allowed to before giving birth. Again, pregnant women can't deploy, so it's really a non-issue on anyone having a problem with maternity utilities.
UncleDave
07-29-2013, 16:04
His point Ronin was that no one in a non combat MOS needs to be in utilities, woman or man. Since women are not suited to combat that there is no need for maternity utilities. Never was it said that women should not serve.
His point Ronin was that no one in a non combat MOS needs to be in utilities, woman or man. Since women are not suited to combat that there is no need for maternity utilities. Never was it said that women should not serve.
I understand what he was saying- and since the ACU is the daily use uniform, no one wears dress uniforms, and they're a pain in the ass... so what alternative would be suggested? And how much will that alternative cost? I was just saying that some of Davsel's comments were pretty sexist and dated for the modern times of women in uniform and the roles they preform. [Beer]
Whatever happened to "fatigues". Drone pilots(operators?) should be dressed in garb appropriate for an office in Nevada, not a patrol in Khandahar...
clublights
07-29-2013, 16:43
Whatever happened to "fatigues". Drone pilots(operators?) should be dressed in garb appropriate for an office in Nevada, not a patrol in Khandahar...
My understanding is that in the USAF drone pilots are PILOTS.... as in they get stuck in duty tour as drone pilots instead of their f-16's or whatever ( much to their displeasure) So they wear flight suits still....
Whatever happened to "fatigues"...
They're worn out...Get it?
I crack myself up...
:p:
Sent via my Mobile Work Avoidance Device
My understanding is that in the USAF drone pilots are PILOTS.... as in they get stuck in duty tour as drone pilots instead of their f-16's or whatever ( much to their displeasure) So they wear flight suits still....
Do they wear helmets with oxygen masks too, while sitting in their air conditioned offices, staring at computer monitors? Flight suits are for flying, much like birthday suits are for birthdays...er wait a sec...[ROFL1]
My understanding is that in the USAF drone pilots are PILOTS.... as in they get stuck in duty tour as drone pilots instead of their f-16's or whatever ( much to their displeasure) So they wear flight suits still....
In the very early days of UAVs, yes, the AF took pilots out of their planes to fly drones. Since about 2010 or so, UAV pilots are their own specialty and are now trained specifically to fly from a desk, not from a cockpit.
Nomex Flight Suits are not necessary IMO.
I see women park their planes as well as their cars...... lol
http://www.edwards.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/photos/080325-F-3817W-002.jpg
^Was a joke.
I think that if you can pass a serious physical test for whatever job, military, or civilian, you should be able to work it. I don't believe in making tests easier for women looking to do any kind of job. If a woman can pass the job, they should be able to work beside the rest that past the test.
The reason for posting the A10 picture, is because I knew a female pilot that was highly decorated for whatever in the hell she did, and had the respect of lots of her fellow pilots. The sexist crap wouldn't exist as much if the testing was straight across the board for everyone. Unfortunately, they get treated different, or the standards get dropped so they can pass, again, this is a crock of shit as it lowers the standards of everyone. Now, I understand not wanting some skinny thing trying to run around with the SAW and a full load, it isn't going to go over well in a high stress situation where speed is going to mean life or death. She isn't going to do so hot more than likely (unless she's a 240lb woman with only 4% body fat, which is rare.....). There are plenty of jobs a woman can have in the armed forces to be realistic, and few in which they are not the best candidate (if we're being realistic). Having a woman's uniform shouldn't be that big of a deal....
Guys and girls are built different.
Exactly what is the problem with getting them their own uniform? You know, one that actually fits?
Aloha_Shooter
07-29-2013, 21:39
I'm more annoyed by the different utility uniforms adopted by each service just to be different than by the Army designing a uniform that fits our women warriors. A friend's wife enlisted several years ago just before he retired. Despite being in her 30s when she enlisted and now being in her 40s with a svelte body, she was smoking most of the young studs at PT and had no issues carrying her load and then some. Of course, having been a professional cyclist when she was younger and still being a competition racer while she was married might have had something to do with it ...
Women are a key part of our fighting force these days and uniform wear is dictated by the situation. You wear the uniform that fits in and just quit grousing. Hell, I've moved furniture in my Class Bs because utilities were deemed inappropriate for the time and place and situation.
Mick-Boy
07-29-2013, 23:18
Wow.... you guys are sort of all over the map.
Women in combat arms is a totally different issue (but don't worry, that's coming. No matter how the standards have to be "adjusted".).
Women are in the military. Women are built differently then men. Those are the facts. If you think women who working along side men should be built like men, I'd encourage you to do an image search for "crossfit games". Those women could PT most guys into the dirt, but clothes made for men still wouldn't fit properly. A uniform cut for female body types makes sense.
So they've made this purpose built, female uniform. Terrific. But now, the DOD in all of their PC, "everybody is fine", "we're so accepting" wisdom has also authorized its wear for males that find the narrower shoulders and wider seat fits better. We're making it acceptable (authorized) for soldiers to allow themselves become fat bodies. WTF?
The name of the game in combat is "Shoot, move, and communicate". Two out of three doesn't cut it.
OneGuy67
07-30-2013, 11:18
Hell, professionalism and a professional appearance went out the window when we went to the pajama ACU. Not one of my Soldiers in my Guard unit knows what an iron is or how to use it.
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