View Full Version : They need to make CCW/subcompact pistols with no rail
Am I the only one that wants a CCW/subcompact pistol without a rail that snags on clothing, adds bulk, and is pretty much useless! I know there's some of you out there that like to put lights/lasers on the rails, so you look tacticool, but I prefer function over looks. Let me know what you think.
hurley842002
08-02-2013, 04:33
Glock, S&W shield?
Mick-Boy
08-02-2013, 05:03
I carry a light on my CCW pistol. It's not about tacticool it's about target ID.
After all, it's dark roughly half of your life.
In addition to a WML on my pistol I also carry a handheld light. If my pistol is in my hand it's because I think it may be needed.
It takes a lot more training to shoot, reload, and clear malfunctions with something (a light for instance) in your off hand. I don't know a single person that shoots or manipulates a gun as accurately and efficiently with one hand as they can with two.
Carry a light in your pocket. Put a light on your gun. Use the light in your pocket if you don't need your gun out. Have both hands on the gun if it needs to be drawn. Be smart enough to know the difference.
Bailey Guns
08-02-2013, 06:55
Am I the only one that wants a CCW/subcompact pistol without a rail that snags on clothing, adds bulk, and is pretty much useless! I know there's some of you out there that like to put lights/lasers on the rails, so you look tacticool, but I prefer function over looks. Let me know what you think.
I think you're confused on the purpose of a rail on a carry gun.
I don't like the rails on handguns in general.
I do understand that they serve a purpose for some people and they do make a little more sense on a full size handgun.
A flashlight mounted to the front of a subcompact just looks silly and kind of defeats the purpose of having a really compact firearm in the first place. Although, I seriously doubt it would snag on anything or cause a problem like the OP suggested.
I guess the OP hasn't been looking around very hard... I can name half a dozen off the top of my head that don't have rails...
I guess the OP hasn't been looking around very hard... I can name half a dozen off the top of my head that don't have rails...
I would imagine most don't have it. Probably the one he had his heart set on did.
buffalobo
08-02-2013, 08:41
More training / practice, why limit tools and options?
Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2
I would imagine most don't have it. Probably the one he had his heart set on did.
I think you may be right... the majority of the micros, compacts, and subcompacts I can think of right now don't have rails... but I still don't understand what the OP is concerned with [Dunno]
I think you may be right... the majority of the micros, compacts, and subcompacts I can think of right now don't have rails... but I still don't understand what the OP is concerned with [Dunno]
Maybe just aesthetics? Some people like a certain look. Take the 1911 for instance. For me at least, a 1911 with rails is just not very visually appealing. The original dust cover just looks better to me. You will probably never see me own a 1911 with a rail on it. Does this mean there is anything wrong with one that has a rail or that others can't like it better with the rail? No. Just means I prefer mine without the rail.
Probably something similar with the OP. He just wants a sleek carry gun with no extra clutter, do-dads, thing-a-ma-jigs, or whatchamacallits that he has no need for.
Sorry, speaking from experience. It's just for tacticool on a CCW. It is dark half the time, but the only time that a light is actually needed is in your home because the streets are lit up. Also, although it's good to train reloading, you will most likely never have to. Most shootings that happen follow the rule of 3. 3 meters, 3 seconds, and 3 shots. Even shootings that police officers are involved in, follow that rule. When I had to use my pistol in self defense, (downtown Denver) it was only two shots.
I guess the OP hasn't been looking around very hard... I can name half a dozen off the top of my head that don't have rails...
Please name half dozen current generation pistols without a rail. I can find older pistols without a rail, but no current generation Sigs, HKs, Glocks, XDs, ect.....
Bailey Guns
08-02-2013, 12:51
Ruger: LCP, LC9
Sig: P238, P938, P239, P224, P232, M11 A1, P290, Various 1911 Models
Glock: 26, 27, 33, 36 (Gen 3 or 4)
Colt: Many 1911 models
Kimber: Many 1911 Models and Solo
HK: Who cares
S&W: Bodyguard
Kel-Tec: P11, P3AT
Beretta: Nano
Springfield: Various 1911 Models
That's just off the top of my head. And, of course, doesn't include dozens of models of revolvers.
Contrary to your assertion and your anecdotal evidence, rails are not there so the shooter might look "tacticool". They serve a valid function and a necessary function for some people...just like any other accessory. You may not like them (I don't) but that doesn't mean they don't have a purpose beyond cosmetic.
Mick-Boy
08-02-2013, 12:57
Sorry, speaking from experience. It's just for tacticool on a CCW. It is dark half the time, but the only time that a light is actually needed is in your home because the streets are lit up. Also, although it's good to train reloading, you will most likely never have to. Most shootings that happen follow the rule of 3. 3 meters, 3 seconds, and 3 shots. Even shootings that police officers are involved in, follow that rule. When I had to use my pistol in self defense, (downtown Denver) it was only two shots.
You're making a lot of assumptions here. You can guarantee that every location you're going to carry your pistol is going to have street lights? You're banking that you're only going to need three shots? You can't imagine the need to open a door, talk on a phone, or use your non-shooting hand for another task while simultaneously keeping illumination and a gun on something?
I don't carry a gun for what is most likely. Most likely I'll never have to use a gun in the US.
I carry a gun for when things go very wrong. The ability to see what I'm pointing my gun at is a no brainer to me.
I think a lot of "worst case scenarios" are based off of movies and not reality....lol
Bailey Guns
08-02-2013, 13:20
I think a lot of "worst case scenarios" are based off of movies and not reality....lol
And I thought there wasn't room for much more FAIL in this thread.
Zundfolge
08-02-2013, 13:21
http://www.dansdata.com/images/tools/dremel500.jpg
And I thought there wasn't room for much more FAIL in this thread.
I didn't either, until you joined the thread. Since you're such an expert on shootings and personal defense, please share your experience. If you have time in between killing terrorists and rescuing hostages.
Ruger: LCP, LC9
Sig: P238, P938, P239, P224, P232, M11 A1, P290, Various 1911 Models
Glock: 26, 27, 33, 36 (Gen 3 or 4)
Colt: Many 1911 models
Kimber: Many 1911 Models and Solo
HK: Who cares
S&W: Bodyguard
Kel-Tec: P11, P3AT
Beretta: Nano
Springfield: Various 1911 Models
That's just off the top of my head. And, of course, doesn't include dozens of models of revolvers.
Contrary to your assertion and your anecdotal evidence, rails are not there so the shooter might look "tacticool". They serve a valid function and a necessary function for some people...just like any other accessory. You may not like them (I don't) but that doesn't mean they don't have a purpose beyond cosmetic.
Some of these pistols are made specifically for CCW and some are adapted for it. 1911s have reliability issues when made into subcompact sizes. All Kimbers have ammo issues that Kimber will only tell their LE purchusers. That's why Denver PD Is no longer allowed to carry them. A police officer was involved in a shooting and his Kimber failed to feed the second round. when the DPD chief called Kimber, they informed him that he shouldve gotten the memo on what kind of ammo they can use with Kimbers. It's funny that you say "who cares" to HK. They make some of the best pistols in the world!
BuffCyclist
08-02-2013, 13:49
Just a heads up, you might want to go check out Mick-Boy's gear thread (don't know the guy, but I've read his thread and its very informative). He seems to know his shit. Same thing goes for a lot of the other posters in this thread, they know their shit and aren't just posting random crap.
For me, I carry a flashlight with me in my pocket, mostly due to my job and always needing a backup light (haven't bought a WML yet but its on my list of "wants") and don't care whether a firearm has a rail or not. Rails aren't "tacticool", they serve a function, whether you use it or not is another story. A pistol rail-mounted bayonet is an attempt at humor/tacticool and that is stupid.
If you want a CCW that doesn't have rails, what is your reasoning for that other than thinking rails are tacticool?
Bailey Guns
08-02-2013, 13:52
You started out by making the assertion that rails on carry guns are useless and anyone who used a light/laser on the rail on a carry gun was only looking to be "tacticool". Then you made the assertion the only place a rail/light would be useful was in the home because streets have streetlights. You were given very valid reasons by a respected and experienced board member why that's not the case. You ignored it.
Then you asked for someone to name "a half dozen" models without lights. You were given far more than that. You ignored the responses.
Then you made the foolish assertion that many "worst case scenarios" come from movies. Picked up a paper or turned on the news recently?
Troll.
Bailey Guns
08-02-2013, 14:01
Some of these pistols are made specifically for CCW and some are adapted for it. 1911s have reliability issues when made into subcompact sizes. All Kimbers have ammo issues that Kimber will only tell their LE purchusers. That's why Denver PD Is no longer allowed to carry them. A police officer was involved in a shooting and his Kimber failed to feed the second round. when the DPD chief called Kimber, they informed him that he shouldve gotten the memo on what kind of ammo they can use with Kimbers. It's funny that you say "who cares" to HK. They make some of the best pistols in the world!
The HK thing was tongue in cheek. Not surprised it went over your head.
I also knew the fellow that ran the DPD firearms training program for a while. I even supported his wife when she ran for office. Our dept (specifically the instructors and firearms guys) worked pretty closely with the DPD guys...that's I how I met him. I was also closely involved in the issue with the Kimbers. Maybe it's my memory but I don't recall the issue with Kimber's being the result of a failure in a shooting at all.
Total bullshit that small 1911 pistols in general don't work reliably. Have there been some problems? Of course. Were there technical issues to overcome? Of course. But making the assertion that "1911s have reliability issues...." implies all of them do. All of them don't.
I'll stick to my original assessment: Troll
The HK thing was tongue in cheek. Not surprised it went over your head.
I also knew the fellow that ran the DPD firearms training program for a while. I even supported his wife when she ran for office. Our dept (specifically the instructors and firearms guys) worked pretty closely with the DPD guys...that's I how I met him. I was also closely involved in the issue with the Kimbers. Maybe it's my memory but I don't recall the issue with Kimber's being the result of a failure in a shooting at all.
Total bullshit that small 1911 pistols in general don't work reliably.
I'll stick to my original assessment: Troll
How can I be a "troll" when I started the thread?! It seams like you're the troll here!
I've had 2 subcompact 1911s. They were both very picky with ammo. That is a reliability issue to me.
The issue with the Kimbers certainly did arise from a failure in a shoot out. Don't want to name the officer on here, but he had to go to his secondary weapon. Thanks for trying to throw your connections around to try to make yourself look like a big shot though. Troll!
BuffCyclist
08-02-2013, 14:20
How can I be a "troll" when I started the thread?! It seams like you're the troll here!
I've had 2 subcompact 1911s. They were both very picky with ammo. That is a reliability issue to me.
The issue with the Kimbers certainly did arise from a failure in a shoot out. Don't want to name the officer on here, but he had to go to his secondary weapon. Thanks for trying to throw your connections around to try to make yourself look like a big shot though. Troll!
He's saying you're a troll because you started a controversial thread with opinions, then were given the info you requested and changed your opinions without taking what people are saying into consideration.
Why don't you mention what 1911's you've had reliability issues with and exactly what happened. I doubt having a rail on any gun causes malfunctions and rails are useful, perhaps not in your eyes, but they DO serve a purpose for more than being "tacticool".
Just a heads up, you might want to go check out Mick-Boy's gear thread (don't know the guy, but I've read his thread and its very informative). He seems to know his shit. Same thing goes for a lot of the other posters in this thread, they know their shit and aren't just posting random crap.
For me, I carry a flashlight with me in my pocket, mostly due to my job and always needing a backup light (haven't bought a WML yet but its on my list of "wants") and don't care whether a firearm has a rail or not. Rails aren't "tacticool", they serve a function, whether you use it or not is another story. A pistol rail-mounted bayonet is an attempt at humor/tacticool and that is stupid.
If you want a CCW that doesn't have rails, what is your reasoning for that other than thinking rails are tacticool?
All the pistols I've carried, including the one I actually had to use, (XD subcompact) have had rails. To me, rails add bulk and make the pistol less concealable. I have many LE friends that carry the Glock 27, HK P2000sk, and other subcompact pistols, and they feel the same way.
Thanks for the heads up on the other thread. Will check it out.
Dude... this shit baffles me.
Go stand in the street tonight, get a buddy to stand 25 yards away, have him pull something out of his pocket, now tell me what he's holding. Is it his cell phone, is it a gun, is it a beer, a knife, a sandwich? Now consider it's a stranger. Is this a drunk college kid coming at me holding something, is it a bad guy? You have a few seconds to decide, and your future is a stake.
Question two: are you better shooting with one hand or two?
Conclusion: put a light on your gun, it makes things easier.
Problem solved, problem staying solved.
Bailey Guns
08-02-2013, 14:26
You're gonna have to do better than that. Even looking at old information the issue involved DPD's use of +P ammunition that was not recommended by Kimber and involved reliability issues on the range...not in a shooting. None of the guys that traded their Kimbers to me (for Colts) ever mentioned a shooting, either.
Bailey Guns
08-02-2013, 14:36
Thanks for trying to throw your connections around to try to make yourself look like a big shot though.
I wasn't trying to throw "connections" around. I haven't been "connected" to these people for many years. But, then again, the Kimber issue came about in the mid-2000s. I mentioned the DPD "connections" because you wrote:
Since you're such an expert on shootings and personal defense, please share your experience.
I shared the relevant portion (without getting too specific) to illustrate my opinion was based on some experience with the subject.
He's saying you're a troll because you started a controversial thread with opinions, then were given the info you requested and changed your opinions without taking what people are saying into consideration.
Why don't you mention what 1911's you've had reliability issues with and exactly what happened. I doubt having a rail on any gun causes malfunctions and rails are useful, perhaps not in your eyes, but they DO serve a purpose for more than being "tacticool".
I never said rails cause reliability issues. I was saying that the 1911 wasn't designed for CCW and when you try to shrink it, it has issues. I first had a Springfield 1911 subcompact that I bought from Rob at Rob's Guns. He sent it back to Springfield for me the first time I had problems with it. Springfield sent it back and said they polished the feed ramps. Still had feeding issues with hydroshock and a couple other self defense ammo. I took it to a store called Denver .45 and they tried to fix it, with no luck. I then bought a Kimber Ultra carry, thinking I would have better luck, since everyone was raving about the quality of Kimbers, but I had the same issues. The owner of Denver .45 told me that they were seeing similar issues with subcompact 1911s. Also, more recently, i had a Kimber Pro TLE/RL and I had feeding issues with that as well. It was nice and accurate when it fed/fired, but to me a pistol that doesn't feed reliably every time is just a expensive hammer. I think the only 1911 that I have shot and didn't want to put down was my friends Wilson Combat, but I don't want to spend $3000 on a 1911, or any pistol.
Man, this thread really reminds me that I need to pick up a wml.
Mick-Boy
08-02-2013, 15:02
All the pistols I've carried, including the one I actually had to use, (XD subcompact) have had rails. To me, rails add bulk and make the pistol less concealable. I have many LE friends that carry the Glock 27, HK P2000sk, and other subcompact pistols, and they feel the same way.
Thanks for the heads up on the other thread. Will check it out.
The rail adds bulk and makes the pistol less concealable? Seriously? Look at a Gen 2 G19 and a Gen 3 G19 and then tell me all about how the Gen 3 is bulkier and harder to conceal.
[dig]
The rail adds bulk and makes the pistol less concealable? Seriously? Look at a Gen 2 G19 and a Gen 3 G19 and then tell me all about how the Gen 3 is bulkier and harder to conceal.
[dig]
I never carried a Glock. Didn't like the way it felt in my hand. Personal preference. Also, the rails on my HK P2000sk snags on clothing a little.
Not for nothing, but your original post seemed to assert that there are no good ccw pistols without rails, and that rails are useless anyway. Baily pointed out a whole bunch of ccw guns without rails, and a bunch of guys have pointed out why rails are not useless.
Are we just chit chatting now?
Methinks getting into a pissing contest with people that certainly have relevant qualifications, without knowing their experience level, as a n00b on the board is less than bright. Just my 2 cents. Listen and learn from people that do/have done this shit for a living.
BuffCyclist
08-02-2013, 15:44
I never said rails cause reliability issues. I was saying that the 1911 wasn't designed for CCW and when you try to shrink it, it has issues. I first had a Springfield 1911 subcompact that I bought from Rob at Rob's Guns. He sent it back to Springfield for me the first time I had problems with it. Springfield sent it back and said they polished the feed ramps. Still had feeding issues with hydroshock and a couple other self defense ammo. I took it to a store called Denver .45 and they tried to fix it, with no luck. I then bought a Kimber Ultra carry, thinking I would have better luck, since everyone was raving about the quality of Kimbers, but I had the same issues. The owner of Denver .45 told me that they were seeing similar issues with subcompact 1911s. Also, more recently, i had a Kimber Pro TLE/RL and I had feeding issues with that as well. It was nice and accurate when it fed/fired, but to me a pistol that doesn't feed reliably every time is just a expensive hammer. I think the only 1911 that I have shot and didn't want to put down was my friends Wilson Combat, but I don't want to spend $3000 on a 1911, or any pistol.
Well, that wasn't exactly what I was trying to say so my bad. If anything, rails REMOVE material from under the barrel on the receiver so they'll be lower weight, more rigid (due to the cuts). I guess something that no one has mentioned is if you're talking about rails with all the cross cuts perpendicular to the length or like the Glock rails that only have 1 cross cut. If the former, then perhaps I could see how you could have issues with drawing/re-holstering WITHOUT A HOLSTER. If you have a holster, I can't see how it could cause issues with concealment or with ease of drawing.
Man, this thread really reminds me that I need to pick up a wml.
Haha, me too! Time to go shopping!
The rail adds bulk and makes the pistol less concealable? Seriously? Look at a Gen 2 G19 and a Gen 3 G19 and then tell me all about how the Gen 3 is bulkier and harder to conceal.
[dig]
Exactly. A rail REMOVES material. Besides, most holsters COVER the rail so this issue is moot.
I never carried a Glock. Didn't like the way it felt in my hand. Personal preference. Also, the rails on my HK P2000sk snags on clothing a little.
And that's fine, but Glocks function 100% of the time, that's why they're so popular as police/military firearms. I've put thousands of rounds through my Glock 23 without a single malfunction (that wasn't caused due to light reloads which is when I'm working up a target/low-recoil load). But, the Glock grip angle doesn't fit everyone. Never liked the feel of HK's, though I've only handled two and I have no idea what models they were.
Not for nothing, but your original post seemed to assert that there are no good ccw pistols without rails, and that rails are useless anyway. Baily pointed out a whole bunch of ccw guns without rails, and a bunch of guys have pointed out why rails are not useless.
Are we just chit chatting now?
Yup, just wasting time and a little of this:[beatdeadhorse]
BuffCyclist
08-02-2013, 15:46
Methinks getting into a pissing contest with people that certainly have relevant qualifications, without knowing their experience level, as a n00b on the board is less than bright. Just my 2 cents. Listen and learn from people that do/have done this shit for a living.
But, but he's not a noob! He's been around for 2.5 years! [facepalm]
I agree, like I said before, there is a LOT of very experienced people (with 100 times the knowledge of firearms that I have) who have already posted countering his arguments. Some people will always stick to what they know/feel and won't/can't take advice from anyone.
centrarchidae
08-02-2013, 19:37
Sorry, speaking from experience. It's just for tacticool on a CCW. It is dark half the time, but the only time that a light is actually needed is in your home because the streets are lit up. Also, although it's good to train reloading, you will most likely never have to. Most shootings that happen follow the rule of 3. 3 meters, 3 seconds, and 3 shots. Even shootings that police officers are involved in, follow that rule. When I had to use my pistol in self defense, (downtown Denver) it was only two shots.
Three shots?
Tell me, what is the most common cause of stoppages in any quality defensive pistol?
Okay, I hate guessing games, so I'll just say that it's the magazine, and IME usually weak magazine springs.
Which is why a spare magazine and the ability to reload toute de freaking suite is not a bad idea at all.
Bailey Guns
08-02-2013, 19:48
Three shots?
Tell me, what is the most common cause of stoppages in any quality defensive pistol?
OK. I would've said the operator of the gun. I've seen people do some pretty stupid stuff with their guns.
[Coffee]
blacklabel
08-02-2013, 20:05
I never carried a Glock. Didn't like the way it felt in my hand. Personal preference. Also, the rails on my HK P2000sk snags on clothing a little.
Mexican carry? How does your rail possibly snag on clothing?
JM Ver. 2.0
08-02-2013, 20:14
WAH WAH WAH WAH!!!! My gun has rails!!!! I don't like rails! WAH WAH WAH WAH!
Well then cut the fucking rail off with a hack saw!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
3beansalad
08-02-2013, 20:23
Rails rock... who wants a pistol without rails? Carry Glock, do a little Emory board work if you find a rough edge.
Damn this touchscreen.
What I want to know is why you didn't fire that third shot?
Great-Kazoo
08-02-2013, 21:37
Mexican carry? How does your rail possibly snag on clothing?
Hip huggers or formal dinner dress? I'm in a WTF is gong on with this thread. OP asked a question, received answers and then questioned people's pedigree.
Bad form my good man bad Form.
Great-Kazoo
08-02-2013, 21:37
What I want to know is why you didn't fire that third shot?
The street light burned out?
I'm in a WTF is gong on with this thread.
I'm quite enjoying it actually, it's like a slow motion crash scene - just too much fun to watch [Wow2]
I'm quite enjoying it actually, it's like a slow motion crash scene - just too much fun to watch [Wow2]
Yep. Like a NASCAR race. You only watch because you know the big crash is coming.
strm_trpr
08-03-2013, 00:57
I CCW a G23 for work with a light on, and when I am not working I take the light off and run a good flashlight in my pocket. The rail is a good thing to have.
Mick-Boy
08-03-2013, 01:08
Clearly you haven't been paying attention strm_trpr.
You don't need a light because there are street lights everywhere. You don't need a reload because gunfights only last three rounds. Carrying anything more than that means you're just trying to be tacti-cool because you've watched too many movies.
Now you're caught up. Try not to fall behind the class again. You're welcome.
strm_trpr
08-03-2013, 01:42
Awh crap, I have been doing it wrong. Time to stop with the EDC multi tool. You know I think I will sell off all my guns except for my 686 because we don't need lights or mags and it is simpler.
Awh crap, I have been doing it wrong. Time to stop with the EDC multi tool. You know I think I will sell off all my guns except for my 686 because we don't need lights or mags and it is simpler.
Hell, I wouldn't even load all the chambers in the 686 either. Just the first three.
[Coffee]
S&W 642. No rail, just enough. If I need a flashlight i'd load 110 grain bullets.
What I want to know is why you didn't fire that third shot?
Didn't need to. The guy was down.
strm_trpr
08-04-2013, 10:09
Hell, I wouldn't even load all the chambers in the 686 either. Just the first three.
[Coffee]
Ok, So I changed my load out then, i put 3 38spc+p jsp in there for my primary carry. Sounds good ?
stoner01
08-04-2013, 10:54
http://i1251.photobucket.com/albums/hh541/stoner011/IMG_20130510_215006_zps244c5cc2.jpgIve been doing it wrong. Started with the Glock. Switching to the 1911 when I get home. The rifle is my go to now so it goes everywhere.
[Pop]
Why do I near miss EVERY troll post?
FWIW, I do summer carry a P238 (just got a P938 woo! woo!) and as everyone knows, they have no rail. But then again, they're baby (fake) 1911's and are just poop anyway. I do sometimes question my decision to run a P229 SAS (sans rail) and carry a ProTac, but don't generally find myself in sketchy nighttime situations in suburbia so the light is more for utility. I do have an SP2022 with rail and TLR-3 as a truck/pack gun and, of course, the goto AR's are setup with lights.
LeftHandBlack
08-04-2013, 13:57
I dont like rails either. I dont like flashlight or lasers on handguns. Ive learned to hold flashlight seperately. A flashlight is handy for sure but if its mounted on gun it is useless until you HAVE TO draw weapon. If I think Im approaching a situation can hold flashlight in one hand have hand on holstered gun ready to draw.
Bailey Guns
08-04-2013, 15:00
What if one hand/arm is injured, but you still need a light.
Well, duh! That's what streetlights are for.
buffalobo
08-04-2013, 15:33
Damn, wonder what we are supposed to do? Nearest street light is 13 miles away. Guess will have to just give up and die. [hahhah-no]
Only the military and police need tactical flashlights!
Sent by a free-range electronic weasel, with no sense of personal space.
strm_trpr
08-04-2013, 17:14
Only the military and police need tactical flashlights!
Sent by a free-range electronic weasel, with no sense of personal space.
True Story...
When I started in my LEO job we were not allowed weapon mounted lights because our bosses did not think we needed them...We routinly search houses and homes of convicted felons at night to effect an arrest or search for guns and drugs. This was 5 years ago. After I had been there a year and a half we were finaly authorized to choose between one of 3 light options.
Sorry to bring serious in here.
That being said not even police need lights on their guns right.!
bobbyfairbanks
08-04-2013, 17:40
opinions are like ass holes every one has one.
opinions are like ass holes every one has one.
And most of them stink.
Mick-Boy
08-05-2013, 05:29
Well I'll go ahead and offer one asshole's opinion.
I've already said that I carry a light on my pistol at home. I'll expand on why because I believe understanding the why is usually more important than knowing the what.
Here are a couple of simple facts as I see them: It's dark about half the time. You can't (shouldn't) shoot something if you can't see it. Most folks shoot and manipulate guns better with two hands than with one.
All that being the case, I decided that I would carry a pistol with a light on it. The negatives (increased weight and bulk of your carry gun) are far outweighed by the positives in my opinion.
If you do decide to carry a light on your pistol don't ever forget that it's not a light. It's a weapon with a light attached. Don't be the asshole who points a gun at someone or something that doesn't need a gun pointed at it just because the light is convenient. For that reason I also carry a handheld flashlight.
Either way, train with your gun in low-light. If you don't like (or can't) have a light on your carry gun, there are several good techniques for using a handheld light in conjunction with a pistol. But there is a world of difference between knowing a technique academically and knowing a technique in practical application. Train, train, train. It doesn't all (or even most) have to be live fire. You can get a ton of work in by doing dry runs around the house. Understand what you're doing and *why* you're doing it.
Choosing to carry a gun, what gun to carry, how to carry you gun, what circumstances dictate pulling you gun, etc. These are all personal choices and often one is just as good as another. But if you choose to carry a gun you should also be able to use it safely and effectively in the dark.
There aren't always as many street lights as we might wish there were.
Wow, I missed all the fun this weekend. I was an early participant then missed all the action. Thanks Mick and Bailey for your words of wisdom, logic, and experience. I'm right there with you.
Wow... just wow... attacking people for their opinions?
Lighten up, Francis.
https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/q71/487906_628197273880617_2020340702_n.jpg
Anyway, I'll toss my hat into this...
1. I have owned a Springfield 1911 GI Champion (subcompact) for about 3 years, ran all kinds of defense, range and reloaded ammo through it, probably upwards of 2,000 rounds. Had only a few malfunctions- one was bad magazine spring (got wet, slight rust on the spring itself). Other than that, it's run like a 1911 should be expected to run- excellent! So no, OP, you're wrong, Springfield compact 1911s run great if you take care of them, at least IME.
2. I have carried a Sig P229 with rail nearly every single day this year. I use a Comp-Tac Kydex holster, and have never once- in daily carry or training (which I do plenty of)- had it "snag" on anything. I also have a light for it, and use the light, train with the light, and do not consider the use or ability to attach the light "tacticool" in any way- it's more "Practicool" instead- and I find it actually very useful. Hate to say it, but whatever experience you have must be very different from mine. I've been plenty of places where there are no street lights. And what if you're in Detroit? 70% of their street lights don't work! What then?
3. Your snide remark to Bailey on his experience... obviously you don't know jack about the man or you wouldn't have made that comment about killing terrorists or rescuing hostages. I'd gladly accept friendly advice from someone like him on shooting as his life experience is valuable and far outweighs my own. You might want to try and be a little more humble and stop making assumptions about people you don't know anything about... You only end up looking like a major douche.
bobbyfairbanks
08-05-2013, 16:39
I own a Colt Defender. I have had it for 4 or 5 years and I beat the living crap out of it. I have some where between 3 and 5k rds through it. It runs like a champion so well I carry as my CCW every day and feel great about it. Did I mention that it is accurate and has a nice trigger on it as well. Zombie Steve can bag up my claims to how well it runs and how poorly I care for my guns. It is called the Yeti test. If I can't break it then they are good to go. I do carry a light on my gun when I work and there is even lights on my shotguns. When I go walking around I carry a light, knife and gun.
Opinions based on shit are exactly that, shit. Get over it man and by a gun that works for you. If it is polymer you can always have some one work the rails out and if it is metal same thing. If your drawing your gun from a holster and it is getting hung up on things you are just plain doing something wrong.
To all that have spoken from experience good on you. All of you with the experience know that guys that make stupid excuses can't be helped anyway. Just move on please. This thread is haunting me.
In an attempt to be civil iceguy, can you please describe your experience with your rails hanging up on things?
In an attempt to be civil iceguy, can you please describe your experience with your rails hanging up on things?
In an attempt to make sense of it myself, I've thought maybe it's more about reholstering? Kinda like a little stick in a big hole issue. If the gun has a rail, it (the stick) is bigger, so there's less clearance in the hole (the holster)... i dunno.
I'm just curious, as I must have drawn my pistol from concealment 1,000s of times over the past 4-5 years and can't really remember having an issue with it catching on something. I think I've tried to reholster it through my shirt a few times, but that was a user error.
Zundfolge
08-06-2013, 13:59
Don't be the asshole who points a gun at someone or something that doesn't need a gun pointed at it just because the light is convenient. For that reason I also carry a handheld flashlight.
THIS is probably the reason why some LEO agencies don't allow weapon mounted lights. There is a tendency to use them as "flashlights with a gun attached" as opposed to "guns with flashlights attached".
That's why I've always been of two minds about them. On the one hand they allow you to follow Rule #4 much better than without the light, however they often put you in the position where you're going to have to violate Rule #2, if only for a couple milliseconds until you identify the target unless you're using an additional handheld (in which case the weapon light is somewhat redundant ... especially "on the street" ... now for clearing a house they'd be marvelous which is why I suspect most people with guns with lights on them don't CCW those guns and instead leave them by the bed).
At any rate, this debate is only slightly more useful than the .45 vs 9mm debate.
I'm just curious, as I must have drawn my pistol from concealment 1,000s of times over the past 4-5 years and can't really remember having an issue with it catching on something. I think I've tried to reholster it through my shirt a few times, but that was a user error.
Yeah me too. Beavertails and hammers are what I see snag on clothing, not the rail... sorry 1911 guy's I had to.
I am a "proof is in the pudding" sort of guy. Go shoot at night, see what works. See if shooting with a handheld light is easier or faster that a weapon mounted light. See what handheld position works for you. See what target ID means at different distances. It's amazing what live fire at night proves.
If you are near the Springs and need a place to shoot at night send me a message. I can always use more practice.
SuperiorDG
08-06-2013, 15:31
I am a "proof is in the pudding" sort of guy. Go shoot at night, see what works. See if shooting with a handheld light is easier or faster that a weapon mounted light. See what handheld position works for you. See what target ID means at different distances. It's amazing what live fire at night proves.
If you are near the Springs and need a place to shoot at night send me a message. I can always use more practice.
I hear you can shoot in the Garden of the Gods at night.[ROFL3]
http://www.ar-15.co/threads/105665-Idiot-woke-me-up-at-4am-shooting-rocks-in-Garden-of-the-Gods?highlight=garden+gods
Where's the OP?
Busy with a hacksaw? [ROFL1]
strm_trpr
08-06-2013, 20:19
THIS is probably the reason why some LEO agencies don't allow weapon mounted lights. There is a tendency to use them as "flashlights with a gun attached" as opposed to "guns with flashlights attached".
That's why I've always been of two minds about them. On the one hand they allow you to follow Rule #4 much better than without the light, however they often put you in the position where you're going to have to violate Rule #2, if only for a couple milliseconds until you identify the target unless you're using an additional handheld (in which case the weapon light is somewhat redundant ... especially "on the street" ... now for clearing a house they'd be marvelous which is why I suspect most people with guns with lights on them don't CCW those guns and instead leave them by the bed).
At any rate, this debate is only slightly more useful than the .45 vs 9mm debate.
This was the point of view of the old bosses at my work. Even though we were issued lights he was worried that we would all run around using them to look through a bag or checking drawers at a house. In the end he left and we got our way.
Where's the OP?
He took his ball and left... [Cry][LOL]
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