View Full Version : Firearm instructor accidentally shoots student.
Rooskibar03
08-13-2013, 11:35
Wonder if he will get a refund?
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/08/13/gun-safety-instructor-accidentally-shoots-student-while-reportedly-showing-how-to-properly-use-a-handgun/
It would appear the instructor forgot the first rule.
stoner01
08-13-2013, 11:44
glock fo-tay??
Aloha_Shooter
08-13-2013, 12:01
WTF. How does he teach a class on gun safety and not go over the Three Always? How does he even let a live round in the classroom?
It was a live demo on what happens when you improperly handle firearms?
Well I guess at 73 yrs old.. he forgot?
Is this the same one that happened in the shothouse, or a new one?
Rooskibar03
08-13-2013, 12:06
Well I guess at 73 yrs old.. he forgot?
Oh you're gonna upset the old farts now. (As soon as they get back from the drive through farmers market)
Mick-Boy
08-13-2013, 12:14
Is this the same one that happened in the shothouse, or a new one?
New one.
Mick-Boy
08-13-2013, 12:16
Honestly though. The more common place guns are in your life, the more likely you are to get complacent.... Murphy is always lurking.
Circuits
08-13-2013, 12:27
No live ammo in the classroom.
EVER.
Honestly though. The more common place guns are in your life, the more likely you are to get complacent.... Murphy is always lurking.
Sadly true in so many activities.
No live ammo in the classroom.
EVER.
ccw?
This just reinforces that you need to vett your instructor's credentials before taking a class from them. You need to know what training and experience they have in that subject. AARs also need to be done for courses, good and bad, to help spread the work about legit instructors and ass clowns that don't know shit.
ccw?
EVER. PERIOD.
Good instructors don't even allow LEO to have ammo in the classroom. None, nada, zero.
This is why during our classes, Spleify and I have a strict no ammo policy, and we both check, and cross check every firearm in the room. AND even after cross checking, the 4 rules of gun safety apply rigidly.
Hell, while we aren't perfect with it, we still try our best to avoid pointing a blue gun at any person during demonstration.
Safety is first, last and always.
ccw?
During an NRA class, no. Not ever.
O2
Aloha_Shooter
08-13-2013, 14:25
Like I said, I don't understand letting a live round in the classroom. Period. I probably wouldn't be as aware of it if I weren't a certified instructor myself but I would drop a class like a hot potato if the instructor DIDN'T do an ammo check at the start of every classroom session. Any student I caught with live ammo after I called for a check and received positive safety replies (i.e., who lied about having live ammo with them) would be asked to leave.
StagLefty
08-13-2013, 15:28
Like I said, I don't understand letting a live round in the classroom. Period. I probably wouldn't be as aware of it if I weren't a certified instructor myself but I would drop a class like a hot potato if the instructor DIDN'T do an ammo check at the start of every classroom session. Any student I caught with live ammo after I called for a check and received positive safety replies (i.e., who lied about having live ammo with them) would be asked to leave.
Hear Hear !!!
eneranch
08-13-2013, 16:02
.... Murphy is always lurking.
In this case his name was Rick O'Shea [Sarcasm2]
Circuits
08-13-2013, 18:39
ccw?
If you're taking my class, your CCW stays outside the room. No live ammo in the classroom. If you decide to carry anyway, it better stay really good and hidden.
Reminds me of the time a couple summers ago where an instructor, FFL/SOT, LEO & range owner where the 3-gun competition we were in was going on ND'd himself in the leg 5' in front of me as I was on deck waiting for my turn. The guy least likely to ND was the one who did and I chalk it up to complacency. I hope that I never get that way and make steps every time I'm in the presence of guns to make sure I don't get complacent. When all else fails.... fall back on the 4 rules of firearm safety and nobody will get shot. Ever.
Teufelhund
08-14-2013, 22:35
EVER. PERIOD. Good instructors don't even allow LEO to have ammo in the classroom. None, nada, zero. This is why during our classes, Spleify and I have a strict no ammo policy, and we both check, and cross check every firearm in the room. AND even after cross checking, the 4 rules of gun safety apply rigidly. Hell, while we aren't perfect with it, we still try our best to avoid pointing a blue gun at any person during demonstration. Safety is first, last and always.
Interesting. Would you agree there's a bit of hypocrisy in this policy? Are you having students draw their CCW in the class and dry fire? If not, then how is someone carrying legally while in your class different than carrying anywhere else?
I'm volunteering at J and Spleifs courses. I am going to write in pen to bring at least 4 boxes of ammo for your gun to each class, then I am going to stand at the door and demand they put the boxes in my bag to be used later, once the last students gets through the door, run like hell! gotta find ammo somehow!
I agree with the policy. I am big on making sure no ammo is on my cleaning table. it is strictly for cleaning, has all my cleaning supplies and thats it. only unloaded guns, cleaning supplies and takedown tools. no ammo, no nada.
Aloha_Shooter
08-14-2013, 23:40
Interesting. Would you agree there's a bit of hypocrisy in this policy? Are you having students draw their CCW in the class and dry fire? If not, then how is someone carrying legally while in your class different than carrying anywhere else?
No, there's no hypocrisy involved. The difference is that we are having students handle firearms in a learning situation and it's a major safety rule to not have any live ammunition around both students and firearms except at the range. There would never have been a ND in this case if the instructor in question had followed the rules.
As J said, a good instructor just plain doesn't allow ammo in the classroom for any reason. None. If you don't like it, find a class by someone who doesn't care -- but let us know who it is so the rest of us know who to avoid.
Bailey Guns
08-15-2013, 02:58
Agree with AS. NO LIVE AMMO in the class. We take it further and don't even allow firearms. We do a lot of blue-gun training in the class and we issue each student a blue gun and a holster. We also use real Glock 19 pistols on our simulator (of course they're modified to "fire" a laser and recoil with CO2).
While we don't physically check everyone we make sure at the beginning of class that everyone checks through purses, pockets, etc for ammo and guns.
I don't see any hypocrisy whatsoever in having a "NO AMMO" policy in the classroom. To me it's just common sense.
It took me awhile to get used to cold ranges, but that's how all the competitions I've done have been and I've come to appreciate it.
Bailey Guns
08-25-2013, 13:40
Gun-safety instructor who shot student also shot girl in 1977 (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/08/25/gun-safety-instructor-who-shot-student-also-shot-girl-in-177/)
Read more: STORY (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/08/25/gun-safety-instructor-who-shot-student-also-shot-girl-in-177/)
For crying out loud. Maybe it's time to give it up.
OtterbatHellcat
08-25-2013, 13:45
Twice?
Really?
Gun-safety instructor who shot student also shot girl in 1977 (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/08/25/gun-safety-instructor-who-shot-student-also-shot-girl-in-177/)
Read more: STORY (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/08/25/gun-safety-instructor-who-shot-student-also-shot-girl-in-177/)
For crying out loud. Maybe it's time to give it up.
lmao what kind of maniac starts shooting into the air at a haunted hay ride
Gun-safety instructor who shot student also shot girl in 1977 (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/08/25/gun-safety-instructor-who-shot-student-also-shot-girl-in-177/)
Read more: STORY (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/08/25/gun-safety-instructor-who-shot-student-also-shot-girl-in-177/)
For crying out loud. Maybe it's time to give it up.
I think it was time about 40 years ago...
1.Always keep the gun pointed in a safe direction
2.Always keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to shoot.
3.Always keep the gun unloaded until you’re ready to use it.
Bailey Guns
08-26-2013, 05:08
Define "ready to use it".
#3 isn't really one of the "Big 4" safety rules.
StagLefty
08-26-2013, 08:25
Define "ready to use it".
#3 isn't really one of the "Big 4" safety rules.
Those are the 3 big NRA safety rules. #3 has always been open to some interpretation. If you have a firearm in the home for self defense or hunting it's sure "loaded and ready to use"
Bailey Guns
08-26-2013, 08:37
I know it comes from the NRA. But, typical of the NRA, it's about 30 years behind contemporary defensive gun training tactics. Of course, the NRA is all about "safety" and has only ventured into the real world of defensive gun use in the last 10 years or so...whenever they started their PPITH and PPOTH.
1.Always keep the gun pointed in a safe direction
2.Always keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to shoot.
3.Always keep the gun unloaded until you’re ready to use it.
So don't worry about your target or what's behind it?
1.Always keep the gun pointed in a safe direction
2.Always keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to shoot.
3.Always keep the gun unloaded until you’re ready to use it.
This is just full of fail. I'll stick to my 4 rules thanks. Firearm safety isn't so convoluted that I feel the need to cut one of the rules and make the rest streamlined.
ZERO THEORY
08-26-2013, 11:04
A) Great...the antis will love this
B) Why would you bring live ammunition or magazines for a demo weapon to a safety course?
C) This is exactly where a blue dummy gun or airsoft replica would come in handy
D) If your job is to teach firearm safety, you should employ some...firearm safety
A) Great...the antis will love this
B) Why would you bring live ammunition or magazines for a demo weapon to a safety course?
C) This is exactly where a blue dummy gun or airsoft replica would come in handy
D) If your job is to teach firearm safety, you should employ some...firearm safety
The ND's I've witnessed has ALL been from accomplished and certified firearms instructors. This is why I don't shoot with people other than a small handful that I implicitly trust. After all, you're literally putting your life in the hands of those around you when shooting firearms. When you think about it that way, do you trust the yocals at your local indoor range with your life? I know I don't.
One word: Complacency.
I hope I never get that way.
Bailey Guns
08-26-2013, 11:23
I've had one ND about 15 years ago. That was enough. I could've easily hurt my son who was in the room with me. I've tried really hard since then to NOT be a dumbass.
Aloha_Shooter
08-26-2013, 12:09
Define "ready to use it".
#3 isn't really one of the "Big 4" safety rules.
The NRA 3 are consistent with the NSSF 10 and other training. In point of fact, "Always keep the gun unloaded until ready to use it" is basically the same thing as NSSF's #2 "Firearms should be kept unloaded when not actually in use." The proviso here of course is that you're supposed to be ready to use self-defense weapons all the time so there's no conflict with keeping them loaded.
http://www.nssf.org/safety/basics/[/URL]]1. Always Keep The Muzzle Pointed In A Safe Direction
http://www.ar-15.co/images/safety/1.jpgThis is the most basic safety rule. If everyone handled a firearm so carefully that the muzzle never pointed at something they didn't intend to shoot, there would be virtually no firearms accidents. It's as simple as that, and it's up to you.
Never point your gun at anything you do not intend to shoot. This is particularly important when loading or unloading a firearm. In the event of an accidental discharge, no injury can occur as long as the muzzle is pointing in a safe direction.
A safe direction means a direction in which a bullet cannot possibly strike anyone, taking into account possible ricochets and the fact that bullets can penetrate walls and ceilings. The safe direction may be "up" on some occasions or "down" on others, but never at anyone or anything not intended as a target. Even when "dry firing" with an unloaded gun, you should never point the gun at an unsafe target.
Make it a habit to know exactly where the muzzle of your gun is pointing at all times, and be sure that you are in control of the direction in which the muzzle is pointing, even if you fall or stumble. This is your responsibility, and only you can control it.
2. Firearms Should Be Unloaded When Not Actually In Use
Firearms should be loaded only when you are in the field or on the target range or shooting area, ready to shoot. When not in use, firearms and ammunition should be secured in a safe place, separate from each other. It is your responsibility to prevent children and unauthorized adults from gaining access to firearms or ammunition.
Unload your gun as soon as you are finished. A loaded gun has no place in or near a car, truck or building. Unload your gun immediately when you have finished shooting, well before you bring it into a car, camp or home.
Whenever you handle a firearm or hand it to someone, always open the action immediately, and visually check the chamber, receiver and magazine to be certain they do not contain any ammunition. Always keep actions open when not in use. Never assume a gun is unloaded -- check for yourself! This is considered a mark of an experienced gun handler!
Never cross a fence, climb a tree or perform any awkward action with a loaded gun. While in the field, there will be times when common sense and the basic rules of firearms safety will require you to unload your gun for maximum safety. Never pull or push a loaded firearm toward yourself or another person. There is never any excuse to carry a loaded gun in a scabbard, a holster not being worn or a gun case. When in doubt, unload your gun!
3. Don't Rely On Your Gun's "Safety"
http://www.ar-15.co/images/safety/3.jpgTreat every gun as though it can fire at any time. The "safety" on any gun is a mechanical device which, like any such device, can become inoperable at the worst possible time. Besides, by mistake, the safety may be "off" when you think it is "on." The safety serves as a supplement to proper gun handling but cannot possibly serve as a substitute for common sense. You should never handle a gun carelessly and assume that the gun won't fire just because the "safety is on."
Never touch the trigger on a firearm until you actually intend to shoot. Keep your fingers away from the trigger while loading or unloading. Never pull the trigger on any firearm with the safety on the "safe" position or anywhere in between "safe" and "fire." It is possible that the gun can fire at any time, or even later when you release the safety, without your ever touching the trigger again.
Never place the safety in between positions, since half-safe is unsafe. Keep the safety "on" until you are absolutely ready to fire.
Regardless of the position of the safety, any blow or jar strong enough to actuate the firing mechanism of a gun can cause it to fire. This can happen even if the trigger is not touched, such as when a gun is dropped. Never rest a loaded gun against any object because there is always the possibility that it will be jarred or slide from its position and fall with sufficient force to discharge.
The only time you can be absolutely certain that a gun cannot fire is when the action is open and it is completely empty. Again, never rely on your gun's safety. You and the safe gun handling procedures you have learned are your gun's primary safeties.
4. Be Sure Of Your Target And What's Beyond It
http://www.ar-15.co/images/safety/4.jpgNo one can call a shot back. Once a gun fires, you have given up all control over where the shot will go or what it will strike. Don't shoot unless you know exactly what your shot is going to strike. Be sure that your bullet will not injure anyone or anything beyond your target.
Firing at a movement or a noise without being absolutely certain of what you are shooting at constitutes disregard for the safety of others. No target is so important that you cannot take the time before you pull the trigger to be absolutely certain of your target and where your shot will stop.
Be aware that even a .22 short bullet can travel over 1 ΒΌ miles and a high velocity cartridge, such as a .30-06, can send its bullet more than 3 miles. Shotgun pellets can travel 500 yards, and shotgun slugs have a range of over half a mile.
You should keep in mind how far a bullet will travel if it misses your intended target or ricochets in another direction.
5. Use Correct Ammunition
http://www.ar-15.co/images/safety/5.jpgYou must assume the serious responsibility of using only the correct ammunition for your firearm. Read and heed all warnings, including those that appear in the gun's instruction manual and on the ammunition boxes.
Using improper or incorrect ammunition can destroy a gun and cause serious personal injury. It only takes one cartridge of improper caliber or gauge to wreck your gun, and only a second to check each one as you load it. Be absolutely certain that the ammunition you are using matches the specifications that are contained within the gun's instruction manual and the manufacturer's markings on the firearm.
Firearms are designed, manufactured and proof tested to standards based upon those of factory loaded ammunition. Handloaded or reloaded ammunition deviating from pressures generated by factory loads or from component recommendations specified in reputable handloading manuals can be dangerous, and can cause severe damage to guns and serious injury to the shooter. Do not use improper reloads or ammunition made of unknown components.
Ammunition that has become very wet or has been submerged in water should be discarded in a safe manner. Do not spray oil or solvents on ammunition or place ammunition in excessively lubricated firearms. Poor ignition, unsatisfactory performance or damage to your firearm and harm to yourself or others could result from using such ammunition.
Form the habit of examining every cartridge you put into your gun. Never use damaged or substandard ammunition -- the money you save is not worth the risk of possible injury or a ruined gun.
6. If Your Gun Fails To Fire When The Trigger Is Pulled, Handle With Care!
Occasionally, a cartridge may not fire when the trigger is pulled. If this occurs, keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction. Keep your face away from the breech. Then, carefully open the action, unload the firearm and dispose of the cartridge in a safe way.
Any time there is a cartridge in the chamber, your gun is loaded and ready to fire even if you've tried to shoot and it did not go off. It could go off at any time, so you must always remember Rule No. 1 and watch that muzzle!
Discharging firearms in poorly ventilated areas, cleaning firearms or handling ammunition may result in exposure to lead and other substances known to cause birth defects, reproductive harm and other serious physical injury. Have adequate ventilation at all times. Wash hands thoroughly after exposure.
7. Always Wear Eye And Ear Protection When Shooting
http://www.ar-15.co/images/safety/7.jpgAll shooters should wear protective shooting glasses and some form of hearing protectors while shooting. Exposure to shooting noise can damage hearing, and adequate vision protection is essential. Shooting glasses guard against twigs, falling shot, clay target chips and the rare ruptured case or firearm malfunction. Wearing eye protection when disassembling and cleaning any gun will also help prevent the possibility of springs, spring tension variety of eye and ear protectors available. No target shooter, plinker or hunter should ever be without them.
Most rules of shooting safety are intended to protect you and others parts, solvents or other agents from contacting your eyes. There is a wide around you, but this rule is for your protection alone. Furthermore, having your hearing and eyes protected will make your shooting easier and will help improve your enjoyment of the shooting sports.
8. Be Sure The Barrel Is Clear Of Obstructions Before Shooting
Before you load your firearm, open the action and be certain that no ammunition is in the chamber or magazine. Be sure the barrel is clear of any obstruction. Even a small bit of mud, snow, excess lubricating oil or grease in the bore can cause dangerously increased pressures, causing the barrel to bulge or even burst on firing, which can cause injury to the shooter and bystanders. Make it a habit to clean the bore and check for obstructions with a cleaning rod immediately before you shoot it. If the noise or recoil on firing seems weak or doesn't seem quite "right," cease firing immediately and be sure to check that no obstruction or projectile has become lodged in the barrel.
Placing a smaller gauge or caliber cartridge into a gun (such as a 20-gauge shell in a 12-gauge shotgun) can result in the smaller cartridge falling into the barrel and acting as a bore obstruction when a cartridge of proper size is fired. This can cause a burst barrel or worse. This is really a case where "haste makes waste." You can easily avoid this type of accident by paying close attention to each cartridge you insert into your firearm.
9. Don't Alter Or Modify Your Gun, And Have Guns Serviced Regularly
http://www.ar-15.co/images/safety/9.jpgFirearms are complicated mechanisms that are designed by experts to function properly in their original condition. Any alteration or change made to a firearm after manufacture can make the gun dangerous and will usually void any factory warranties. Do not jeopardize your safety or the safety of others by altering the trigger, safety or other mechanism of any firearm or allowing unqualified persons to repair or modify a gun. You'll usually ruin an expensive gun. Don't do it!
Your gun is a mechanical device that will not last forever and is subject to wear. As such, it requires periodic inspection, adjustment and service. Check with the manufacturer of your firearm for recommended servicing.
10. Learn The Mechanical And Handling Characteristics Of The Firearm You Are Using
So don't worry about your target or what's behind it?
In NRA training, "Know your target and what is beyond" is one of the fundamental rules for using or storing firearms (as opposed to the 3 Always):
http://training.nra.org/nra-gun-safety-rules.aspx[/URL]]Know your target and what is beyond.
Know how to use the gun safely.
Be sure the gun is safe to operate.
Use only the correct ammunition for your gun.
Wear eye and ear protection as appropriate.
Never use alcohol or over-the-counter, prescription or other drugs before or while shooting.
Store guns so they are not accessible to unauthorized persons.
I'm going to disagree with Jer about the NRA 3 Always being "full of fail" as there is NO way you can have a ND if you follow them but I think we can all agree that this instructor was full of fail and had no business teaching firearm safety. I don't know who certified him to teach Home Firearm Safety but I'm pretty sure he violated basic instructional guidelines for any of the major organizations by having live ammunition in the classroom.
ZERO THEORY
08-26-2013, 12:38
I've had one ND about 15 years ago. That was enough. I could've easily hurt my son who was in the room with me. I've tried really hard since then to NOT be a dumbass.
The only ND I've ever had was with a faulty lower. I was still following what I learned as the second rule (never point the weapon at anything you aren't willing to destroy), with the rifle facing the dirt range ahead at a 45 angle. The hammer spring wasn't engaging properly, so there was a lot of *CLICK* and not a lot of *BANG*. After a failure to fire, I foolishly left my finger on the switch, assuming it couldn't go off now that the action had been engaged. Wrong.
Thankfully, I wasn't waving the weapon around or pointing it at someone's feet or worse. Still haven't felt that embarrassed/stupid since.
Bailey Guns
08-26-2013, 13:24
I understand there are various sets and subsets of rules depending on the organization. I advocate, I teach and I believe in the "Big 4" because they're simple and easy to remember and cover most everything...at least enough to prevent property damage and/or injury regardless of the circumstances.
The "keep the gun unloaded until ready to use" rule is not intuitive in it's meaning to too many people in my opinion. I think that's probably part of the reason so many people who carry a gun for protection carry it with an empty chamber. Most people don't equate "carrying" with "using". And I think there's a difference between "carrying" and "using", too. "Using", to me, implies putting the gun into action. You may feel differently.
Regardless, I'll stick with the "Big 4". They've been condensed pretty much as far as they can and still cover almost any conceivable safety issue. I don't see the point in using language that tends to confuse people or can be left open to various interpretations. It's a good way to create confusion in my opinion.
1. Treat all guns as if they are always loaded.
2. Keep you finger off the trigger (and outside the trigger guard) until your sights are on an identified target and you are ready to fire.
3. Don't point the muzzle of the gun at anything you are not willing to destroy.
4. Be aware of your target and what's behind (and around) it.
Simple, easy to remember and covers pretty much every safety issue imaginable.
ETA: And notice I call them (not that I made them up) the "Big 4", not the "Only 4". We also teach as part of safety to be familiar with how your gun operates and the various features of your gun, point out poor safety habits of others, have a plan to secure your gun under "special" circumstances (like using a toilet in public), and so forth. But, if followed, the Big 4 are adequate for pretty much any scenario.
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