First Form 1, I need my hand held

[King]

I have a few questions about the whole process. I am going the individual route and live in weld county.

1. Is this form filled out correctly (Do I need to put something in box 4.H)?
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/57159047/atf%20form%202.pdf
2. Do I need any other forms beside the form 1, 5330.20, and fingerprints?
3. Do both copies of the form 1 get signed by Chief LEO and how long does it take to sign off?

[Great-Kazoo]

NM........................ you're doing it as individual so 8 is not applicable. sign @ 7

http://images.search.yahoo.com/search/images?_adv_prop=image&fr=yfp-t-900&va=atf+5330.20

Drop the paperwork off at O street with Cook's assistant and wait for your call to pick it up. Make sure you fill in everything needed in the

[King]

Thanks Jim

[Circuits]

Don't forget to tick the "Individual" circle in Box 2. You need both copies signed by both you and the chief, each with a photo attached.

[asmo]

Looks good other than 13 should be - couple of nit-pics that are personal preference and not required.

For 4e (length of barrel) - I put 5" -- no reason to limit yourself if you want to go super short later.
For 4i (Why you intend to make firearm) - I typically put "For all lawful purposes - including investment and collection."
For 5 (FFL stuff) - I typically put "N/A" in each of the boxes

Once you get it filled out and signed - scan another copy before sending it off. Just in case.

[Great-Kazoo]

Looks good other than 13 should be - couple of nit-pics that are personal preference and not required.

For 4e (length of barrel) - I put 5" -- no reason to limit yourself if you want to go super short later.
For 4i (Why you intend to make firearm) - I typically put "For all lawful purposes - including investment and collection."
For 5 (FFL stuff) - I typically put "N/A" in each of the boxes

Once you get it filled out and signed - scan another copy before sending it off. Just in case.

Thanks ASMO , Knew i forgot to suggest something shorter.

[muddywings]

Looks good other than 13 should be - couple of nit-pics that are personal preference and not required.

For 4e (length of barrel) - I put 5" -- no reason to limit yourself if you want to go super short later.
For 4i (Why you intend to make firearm) - I typically put "For all lawful purposes - including investment and collection."
For 5 (FFL stuff) - I typically put "N/A" in each of the boxes

Once you get it filled out and signed - scan another copy before sending it off. Just in case.


Didn't realize you could go shorter. Can you advise OAL for a 5" barrel for an AR? Is it 24.5"?

[Lurch]

From my understanding you should put down what length the original build will be after it's approved you can change it to what ever you like.

[mtnrider]

From my understanding you should put down what length the original build will be after it's approved you can change it to what ever you like.

Only if it is longer I believe. Can't go shorter.

[Lurch]

Only if it is longer I believe. Can't go shorter.

How would that differ from changing calibers?

[Circuits]

Only if it is longer I believe. Can't go shorter.

Negative. SBR is SBR, can have any barrel length you want. The Form 1 barrel length figure is the configuration in which it will first be built, only.

[mtnrider]

Negative. SBR is SBR, can have any barrel length you want. The Form 1 barrel length figure is the configuration in which it will first be built, only.

I think you are correct. I did a little more research. However this appears to be another one of those "fuzzy" areas. I have seen several different answers people were told by the ATF. Some said okay, some said as long as it is not a permanent change and you still have the original length barrel the form was done under. Who knows?

[Great-Kazoo]

deduct original bbl length from new bbl length. Take total then deduct from your original OAL. That's your new OAL.

[King]

I thought the same as well. I was under the impression as long as I can return it to the original length, I should be able to put any length barrel on it. The paperwork is at WCSO waiting for Sheriff Cooke to sign. Then off to the batf. Thanks for all the help and suggestions. Cant wait to join the NFA club.

[asmo]

I have a couple of factory SBRs, including one from Bravo, on that for the barrel length is 5 and the oal is 31.5. Again from the factory.

[asmo]

Now that I am at a place with a real keyboard and internet access let me expound on the above comment(s).


Negative. SBR is SBR, can have any barrel length you want. The Form 1 barrel length figure is the configuration in which it will first be built, only.


I thought the same as well. I was under the impression as long as I can return it to the original length, I should be able to put any length barrel on it.

This goes around various internet boards on occasion, and people argue over what the ATF means -- and the ATF doesn't help because they refuse to clarify. I have heard people say they talked to Agent whatshisface, or approver so-and-so, and they say something about being able to put it back into its "original" or "intended" length. BUT consider the following.

The lower, which is technically the SBR, has nothing to do with the upper. Upon on the creation of the SBR you do not even need to have an upper - so how could possible have an "intended" or "original" configuration. Say you are a factory (like BCM), and you If you are forging out lowers and you register them as SBRs - so you can sell them to your customers as such - how could you possibly know what upper is going to go on there when you sell it to a customer and they have their own upper. Well, doing a form 1 is saying that you are manufacturing a SBR - no different than if you were forging it from raw metal - so what is the difference?

You are declaring that the lower is now an SBR and may have a barrel attached to it with a minimum length of X. From my dealings with the NFA branch I have been told that the reason why the barrel length and OAL are there - are to make sure that the manufactured item does indeed fall within the definitions of an NFA item. If you try to do a form 1 and put the barrel length as 20" and an OAL of 36" they will kick it back to you and say it doesn't fall within their jurisdiction.

All that said - I am not a lawyer - and more importantly I am not *your* lawyer. Do whatever you think is right - I am just telling you what has worked for me in the past, and the rational behind it.

[Circuits]

You are declaring that the lower is now an SBR and may have a barrel attached to it with a minimum length of X.

This is where you're wrong. The legal definition of an SBR is a RIFLE, with a barrel SHORTER than 16" and/or an overall length of SHORTER than 26". Period. That's it for the federal definition. There is no "minimum barrel length of X" associated with the definition.

Those who attribute otherwise are living on internet rumor, or misheard or misinterpreted, or flat-out wrong advice they may or may not have heard from Agent <insert name here> of the ATF, who may or may not have been Bubba from the local gunstore or somebody's brother or cousin. If it's not in writing it doesn't count, and if it's not addressed to you, it still doesn't really count. If you want actual, binding, legal guidance, write the NFA Tech branch, and get back a letter addressed to you, answering your question.

But the letter of the law is clear - an SBR is a rifle meeting the <16" bbl and/or <26" OAL definition, and going from a 15.9" barrel to a 1.1" barrel isn't illegal if the rifle itself has an SBR stamp.

[asmo]

This is where you're wrong.

I have some Form 1's and Form 4's for lowers with no barrels that say otherwise. Tell me again how I am supposed to put in a length of the barrel when no barrel exists? Again, from my dealings with the NFA branch I have been told that the reason why the barrel length and OAL are there - are to make sure that the manufactured item does indeed fall within the definitions of an NFA item. This is what I have been told by the NFA branch and has worked for me. Your mileage may vary. Offer not valid in all 50 states. For rectal use only.



The legal definition of an SBR is a RIFLE, with a barrel SHORTER than 16" and/or an overall length of SHORTER than 26". Period. That's it for the federal definition.

For those playing the home game the actual wording is:



(7) The term “rifle” means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of an explosive to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger.
The IRS definition (Title 26 › Subtitle E › Chapter 53 › Subchapter B › Part I › § 5845) adds: "and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire a fixed cartridge."

(8) The term “short-barreled rifle” means a rifle having one or more barrels less than sixteen inches in length and any weapon made from a rifle (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if such weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches.



No argument there - but that's the rub, isn't it. It gets even funnier when you look at the ATF rulings saying that if you take away the barrel then the rifle isn't an SBR anymore and no longer under the purview of the NFA.

Besides - what I was getting at with my post was the issue around people thinking they had to maintain the ability to return the item to some magical "original" or "intended" configuration.

[Circuits]

I have some Form 1's and Form 4's for lowers with no barrels that say otherwise. Tell me again how I am supposed to put in a length of the barrel when no barrel exists?

Even if allowed (erroneously) in the past, it is no longer acceptable to BATFE to "make" an SBR or SBS without a barrel. To make or manufacture an SBR or SBS since some time in 2009, both a specific barrel length, and specific overall length have been required. Jury has long been out on whether it is lawful to transfer an SBR without a barrel, given that (as we have both pointed out) it does not fall under the purview of the NFA in that particular configuration.

Without getting exhaustive as to prior recommendations, letters or rulings, there is no currently-held ruling requiring that an SBR must be kept in its original configuration (including caliber), nor any law stating that it cannot be a length other than that specified on its registration - be it longer or shorter.

The suggestion to keep ATF apprised of permanent changes to the configuration is just that - a suggestion. I've had a config change (barrel length change on a registered HK machinegun) hold up a subsequent transfer because it was not documented to ATF prior to submitting the new transfer and registration application. The length on the F3 to me didn't match the length on the most recent prior registration - but that got amended on the new F4 to the customer with a hand measurement and picture of the firearm in current configuration sent off to the examiner after I received the error letter.

[King]

And the wait is on. Got my paperwork in the mail. Thanks again for all the help guys