Landlord drama, part 2: security/pet deposit

[muddywings]

I was having problems with my landlord as I was about to move out into our new house and he was selling his rental that we were in per my earlier thread:

http://www.ar-15.co/threads/113705-Landlord-lease-question-opinion

Then he went and one-upped himself even more with my security deposit.

I gave 1 month (+3 days) notice in email in late July for an August 31st move out date.

On August 29th (the day 2 Men and a truck were moving us out of his craphole), he advises me in email, that the house must be cleaned to the following standards:

1. Professional deep cleaning of the whole carpet and wooden area due to pet allergies and absorbed dog odor. House buyers indicated that they have pet allergies and requested that deep cleaning must be done.
2. Clean walls and wash drapes due to pet dander.
3. Clean vents for removing dog hair and odor. Might need to do HVAC duct work behind and beneath the appliances
4. When cleaning is done, the buyer will use led UV flashlight to detect whether there is no hidden dog urine. That means due diligence must done before the fact.

Of course, his lease doesn't have anything in there saying that the house needs to be cleaned to that level. So I advise him (in email) that I'll clean it to the standard in which I took possession of it as a renter. On the 30th, I vacuum, carpet clean (rented from Lowes), cleaned behind the oven/fridge, cleaned the inside of both, vacuumed the drapes and cleaned some spots of the walls. I also tell him that we both should adhere to CRS 38-12-102 (in hopes that he'll grow some common sense).

He responds that he agrees that we should both follow CRS but wants to know about his points above. I respond as such:

Professional deep cleaning of the whole carpet and wooden area due to pet allergies and absorbed dog odor. House buyers indicated that they have pet allergies and requested that deep cleaning must be done.

Please provide documentation that the house was professionally deep cleaned with both the carpet and wooden areas prior to our move in Feb, 2012. I have cleaned the carpets as per how they were we we took over as renters and there is nothing in the lease agreement stating that I have to return it to a higher standard than I received it as the renter.

* Clean walls and wash drapes due to pet dander.

I have never heard of a request to clean walls. I am not sure what you are asking me to do to the walls. As for the drapes, since we no longer have our washer and dryer out the rental, I have vacuumed them.

* Clean vents for removing dog hair and odor. Might need to do HVAC duct work behind and beneath the appliances

I vacuumed out the vents but I will not hire an HVAC tech for any additional work unless you can provide documentation that similar work was accomplished prior to our move in.

* When cleaning is done, the buyer will use led UV flashlight to detect whether there is no hidden dog urine. That means due diligence must done before the fact.

Since there were pets in the house prior to our move in, I do not know how you can validate which stains are from my dog (which is 10 year old and well trained) and any prior pets that were in the house. Do you have documentation of similar tests done prior to our move in?

breakbreak

I left him the rent check for $1100 for the month of August in the house and told him to send the remainder of the $1000 security deposit and $500 pet deposit along with copies of any invoices for damages by Sept 30th. (He had to repaint his 8x8 deck because my dog would lie on it and when she would get up, she left some scratches in the paint; he painted it himself about 2 weeks ago. It should of taken about a half a gallon of paint)

First, am I off base here? My family/friends say he is wacko but I figured a non-bias answer would help.
Two, I figure I'll be taking him to small claims court if he hires an HVAC tech and professional carpet cleaner. The place wasn't cleaned to that level when I moved in, nothing in the lease says anything about it and he didn't give me the notice when I gave him 30 days. I figure his agreement with his buyer has nothing to do with me. Wrong?
Tell me I'm the asshat here or tell me your experience with small claims court....

PS: in case you didn't know, you can sue your landlord for 3 times the amount if the security deposit is held without merit

[speedysst]

Actually you can sue for 3x the deposit if it is not returned in 30-days (or no longer than 60 days if its in the lease) or the landlord provides reason for withholding any portion of the deposit in writing, sent to the last known address of the tenant. I went through the same crap about the deposit about 8 months ago. Plus, seriously, the new owners are going through with an UV light? Yeah, unless that kind of cleaning was done before you moved in, the landlord cannot go after you for normal wear and tear.

[Wulf202]

UV lights don't really work, I have one at work and it's useless. I pull the carpet back and take pics of the stains bleeding thru the back and the padding.

Do you have documentation of conditions when you moved in? Otherwise small claims is his word against yours.

Your landlord has 30 days from move out to get you the disposition/refund (assuming they're in state) as long as you've given them a forwarding address before you can consider a lawsuit.

[Wulf202]

Actually you can sue for 3x the deposit if it is not returned in 30-days (or no longer than 60 days if its in the lease) or the landlord provides reason for withholding any portion of the deposit in writing...

Kind of. 30 days if the landlord is in state, 60 days if it's out of state.

[ray1970]

Sounds to me like he made some deals with the buyers and thinks you should have to foot the bill for all of it. I'm damn sure no legal expert but I do like the fact that you requested proof that he had these services done prior to your moving in to the place.

I typically expect that when I provide a security deposit I will never see that money again anyways. Seems like no matter how well you take care of the place or how clean it is whn you leave it, they always find some jack ass excuse to try to keep it.

Best of luck.

Thanks for reminding me why I am glad I don't rent or own pets.

[Beer]

[sniper7]

I'm no help on the issue but I would think if you returned everything to the way you received it with normal wear and tear and followed the lease instructions then you should be good to go. He is probably trying to suck some more money from your deposit

[speedysst]

The lease I had gave the property manager 60 days even though I never saw the lease. I moved out just as a new management company took over.
Kind of. 30 days if the landlord is in state, 60 days if it's out of state.

[TheBelly]

Joint inspection with documentation of condition upon move out. No more no less..... This protects you from his craziness. With his signature on a joint inspection saying that it is now the same as pre-move in condition, less fair wear and tear, is the gold standard.<br><br>Your landlord is retarded. He's got 30 days to make it happen.

[BuffCyclist]

The lease should have a clause in it regarding what the security deposit will be used for (such as steam cleaning carpets upon vacating the premises) and what damages you will be held liable for.

If the lease does not state those things that he is requesting you to get done, then he has no legal ground to stand on and will have to foot the bill himself. Furthermore, if he has a copy of those things in a lease, but it does not have your initials/signature on the page, he most likely created it after the fact and is attempting to force you to pay the bills.

In the 3 houses and 2 apartments I lived in while in Boulder/Northglenn, I never lost money to security deposits and once even MADE money (landlord put in a fixed interest rate, then sold the account to another landlord and he tried to keep that interest since it was a very high amount and compounded over 7yrs).

At the end of the day, he has 30/60 days to get you the security deposit and pet deposit back WITH an itemized list of deductions otherwise he forfeits all right to withholdings. This is a common practice and the last house I rented down here, I won the full security deposit because the landlord failed to return it to me within the state specified time frame (not that I damaged the house but he kept saying "are you realy going to argue over a few days time?").

If you have access to a friend who is a lawyer, or a lawyer in general, you could always bring the lease to them, explain the situation and have them draft a letter to the landlord stating that if he withholds any amount of the security deposit when he has no right to, then you will pursue legal action.

[Wulf202]

The lease I had gave the property manager 60 days even though I never saw the lease. I moved out just as a new management company took over.
Judges go by 30 days for those in state, 60 if the company is based out of state. In my experience. Since my employer is based in CA, we've always gotten 60 days.

Come to think of it I've never work for a CO based management company.

[Hummer]

<p>
I agree with most everyone here. As a landlord I expect people to move out with the house in as clean a condition as when they moved in. That means hotel clean, so that another person will feel comfortable moving in. The tenants who move out that way always get their full deposit back from me. Any specific damage beyond normal wear and tear will be charged against the deposit accordingly but that is fairly rare.&nbsp; There is wide latitude in wear and tear.&nbsp; If I have to haul away a truckload of trash and spend three days cleaning to make the place rentable then the deposit will be forfeit. Dirtbag renters don&#39;t deserve special treatment, responsible renters get their money back and a good letter of reference.</p>
<p>
Muddywings landlord was clearly trying to paint his tenant as responsible for adhering to an exceptional sales agreement with his buyer. If he withholds security deposit on that basis, Muddywings should respond with a claim or sue for 3x damages. The hitch could be in the $500 pet deposit which could be lost on any reasonable argument by the landlord. Housing pets can be very costly and the owner of the pet is appropriately held responsible for those costs. Your chances in court are like playing russian roulette. Judges are people and can be just as dipshit unpredictable at contract law as landlords and tenants.</p>
<p>
Good luck, cleaning the house, carpet and paying your last month rent is a big plus in your column. You did right by responding to his late-date demands.</p>
<p>
&nbsp;</p>
<p>
&nbsp;</p>
<p>
&nbsp;</p>

[muddywings]

Some more details:
I took video of the place with my Contour camera when me moved in just for this purpose but had issues with the memory card a few weeks later when we got settled and sure enough...gone.

I took photos as I left the house (see below)

Lease (going to abbreviate a bit):
SECURITY DEPOSIT:

B. The SD is intended to pay the cost of damages, cleaning, excessive wear and tear, and unreturned keys once the Lease Agreement has ended and/or for any upaid charges or attorney fees suffered...

E. THe Leased Premises must be left in good, clean condition with all trash, debris, and Tenants personal property removed. The leased premises shall be left with all appliances and equipment in working order.

14. Condition of property:

C. The tenant agrees to return the Leased Premises to the Landlord a the end of the Lease Agreement in the same condition it was at the beginning of the Lease Agreement.

(When I came in, they had just moved out...hadn't even moved their washer and dryer yet. There were no carpet cleaning lines on the carpet)

Pet Addendum:
Security and/or pet deposits are only refunded after the property has been vacated and examined b y management.

(nothing the addendum about cleaning procedures)

http://i.imgur.com/wpKxEDJ.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/vtCttd3.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/SFDiKWz.jpg?1


I expect him to take $50 for painting the deck and don't have a problem with that. But the other demands/requests I think are over the top and meritless.
we shall see....

[centrarchidae]

When I was landlording...

A regular deposit would be returned in full as long as the place was in more or less the same condition when I got it back, as when the tenants moved in, and I didn't get stuck with any of the tenant's bills.

Pets would usually go far enough beyond normal wear and tear that I don't think I ever returned more than pocket change on a pet deposit. Puppies, elderly dogs, and cats are just really rough on carpets.

My own understanding is that a landlord has 30 days on the deposit by default, but can get 60 days if the lease specifically says 60 days.

And it sounds to me like the landlord is trying to screw you.

I had to get out of it, after too much time spend needing to sue tenants who left a thousand or so in damage not counting unpaid rent and late fees, beyond what a deposit would cover, and being told that it was illegal to discriminate against six college-aged students with three jobs between them who weren't related to each other.

[muddywings]

What irks me is that I'm about a good of a renter as he was going to find....IMHO. I paid rent in 6 month installments. I fixed a leaky hose bib and replaced sprinkler soliniods because it was faster for me to do it than coordinate with him or his handyman.
So for him to pull this 3 days before I'm out the door is BS!

just venting....

[spqrzilla]

People seem confused by security deposit laws. In Colorado, the default by statute is 30 days, the lease controls if it states a time frame but no more than 60 days.

The landlord certainly has no right to impose his sale contract's conditions retroactively upon the tenant. But proving the difference at court may not be worth the time and hassle. The OP won't know until he sees the landlords' accounting of the security deposit.

[Drucker]

Say the hell with it. Invite every neighborhood mutt inside and feed them wet cat food. Come back in 8 hours to let them out. j/k

[BuffCyclist]

Say the hell with it. Invite every neighborhood mutt inside and feed them wet cat food. Come back in 8 hours to let them out. j/k

While that would feel awesome to do to just piss away the security deposit, the landlord/owner CAN pursue legal action AFTER the lease is over if the house was damaged by the tenant. Even though you said it in jest, its still ridiculous that he's being put in this position.

[BushMasterBoy]

If I was the landlord, I would give you back the money fast and get the new buyer in quick! Usually the insurance does not cover an unoccupied house...unless he has a special policy for it. Remind him of it.

[Jer]

Judges go by 30 days for those in state, 60 if the company is based out of state. In my experience. Since my employer is based in CA, we've always gotten 60 days.

Come to think of it I've never work for a CO based management company.

Location has nothing to do with it. The law states they have 30 days to return your deposit in full or partial with a written invoice of what items they were specifically charged for. They can however extend this as long as it's in the rental agreement that you signed before you moved in and the maximum length it may be extended is 60 days. That's all Colorado landlord/tenant law. If he fails to meet any of these you can take him to small claims court for treble damages which would be triple the original amount of the security deposit.

OP: Was ANY of this verbiage in the original lease that you signed? If he didn't specify this in the original lease then he has nothing. You are only required to clean the place to whatever guidelines were set in the original lease.

[Jer]

I had to get out of it, after too much time spend needing to sue tenants who left a thousand or so in damage not counting unpaid rent and late fees, beyond what a deposit would cover, and being told that it was illegal to discriminate against six college-aged students with three jobs between them who weren't related to each other.

Who told you that? College-age is not a protected class and you can absolutely discriminate against them. Elderly is a protected class but not teenagers.

[<MADDOG>]

I'm 99.5% confident that the T&C's of the signed lease are what will hold up in court. As you have documented the conditions upon move, hold on to all the correspondence, and see the gentleman in court should he not refund your deposit.

[def90]

City of Boulder has a complete Tenant/Landlord Handbook online listing what can and can't be done..

https://bouldercolorado.gov/child-youth-family/landlord-tenant-handbook

A few items from the online handbook:
Return of Security DepositIf the tenant has fulfilled all the terms of the lease (including giving the landlord proper notice, if required), has paid the rent in full and on time, has left no financial obligation to the landlord, and has caused no damage beyond ordinary wear and tear, the tenant is entitled to a full return of the security deposit. The tenant should collect the security deposit in person or leave a forwarding address with the landlord so that the landlord can return the deposit.
Colorado law requires that the landlord return the security deposit or send an itemized statement of the deductions and the balance of the deposit, if any, to the tenant within 30 days after termination of the tenancy. This time period may be extended up to 60 days if written in the lease. The landlord must either deliver or mail the full deposit or a statement of deductions and the balance of the deposit to the last known address of the tenant. If the landlord fails to provide a written statement of deductions and the balance of the deposit in full within the specified time period, the landlord forfeits his/her right to withhold any portion of the security deposit. However, the landlord retains the right to pursue damages by counter-claim against the tenant in a lawsuit for unpaid rent or for any of the charges he could have otherwise deducted from the damage deposit or any other financial obligation owed by the tenant. Treble damages may be ordered against the landlord in a lawsuit for a security deposit not returned within the required time period.


Recourse for Withheld Security DepositIf the landlord does not return the security deposit or does not send an itemized list of deductions within the required time period, or if the tenant disagrees with the deductions made by the landlord, the tenant should take the following steps:
1. Attempt to negotiate with the landlord for the return of the security deposit.
2. Send a letter to the landlord. This letter, called a “Seven-day Demand letter,” should state that the tenant will sue the landlord for three times the amount of the deposit withheld if the deposit is not returned to the tenant within seven days of the receipt of the letter. A template for this letter is available online (see Landlord Tenant Roommate Sample Documents). The letter must state:
a) the address of the prior rental premises,
b) the dates of the tenant’s occupancy,
c) the amount of the security deposit originally paid,
d) the tenant’s current mailing address, and
e) (if applicable) a statement by the tenant explaining any disagreement with charges withheld from the deposit.
The letter should be sent by certified mail, return receipt requested. The tenant may also send a copy via regular mail. The tenant should keep a copy of the letter and the certified mail receipt.
If the landlord returns the deposit in full or pays the tenant the disputed portion of the deposit within seven days of the landlord’s receipt of the letter, the matter is resolved.
3. If the landlord does not return the deposit within the seven days, the tenant may sue the landlord to obtain the return of the security deposit. The tenant may request three times the amount of the deposit that has been withheld plus reasonable attorney’s fees and court costs. In court, the landlord may counterclaim against the tenant for any damages caused by the tenant. Note: Under most leases, the losing party in a court action is responsible to pay attorney’s fees for the winning party.
4. Contact the Community Mediation Service to arrange to mediate an out-of-court settlement (303-441-4364). Mediation is often faster, less stressful, and cheaper than going to court. Trained, neutral mediators will help to facilitate a negotiation process that often results in agreements that both parties feel are fair and that are tailored to meet the needs of the individuals involved.


Precautions to Prove the Condition of the PremisesBefore the tenant moves into the premises, a list of all existing damages and necessary cleaning should be prepared and signed by all parties. If either party is unavailable or unwilling to do this, another person should witness the inventory, sign the list and then provide the other party with a copy of this list. In addition, it is best to take photographs of individual rooms and specific items to document their condition.
Upon moving out, the tenant should make an appointment with the landlord to accompany the landlord on a tour of the premises, listing damages or necessary cleaning. The tenant and the landlord should sign both copies of the list and keep a copy for their records. To minimize future disputes, if the landlord is unavailable or unwilling to do a walk-through, the tenant should have another person witness the condition of the unit and sign the list.


DISCRIMINATIONUnder Section 12-1-2, B.R.C. 1981, a landlord may not discriminate against a tenant on the basis of “. . . race, creed, color, sex, sexual orientation, gender variance, genetic characteristics, marital status, religion, national origin, ancestry, pregnancy, parenthood, custody of a minor child, or mental or physical disability of the individual or such individual’s friends or associates. . . .” Other than denial of housing to an individual, discrimination also includes charging different rents or deposits, requiring different lengths of lease, or establishing different lease conditions on the basis of the above-listed categories. Exceptions to the ordinance, and more details on the types of conduct it prohibits, may be found on the website http:/www.bouldercolorado.gov (click on “City A-Z,” click on “H,” go to “Human Servies," "Community Relations Human Rights" tab).
The Boulder Revised Code prohibits more types of discrimination than federal or state law. A tenant who believes that a landlord has discriminated against him or her, or a landlord or tenant who wants clarification or a copy of the law should contact the Office of Human Rights, Department of Housing and Human Services, Second Floor, New Britain Building, 1101 Arapahoe, P.O. Box 791, Boulder, Colorado 80306 (303-441-3140.) Other options include contacting and filing a complaint with H.U.D. The Federal Fair Housing Act also prohibits discrimination. The terms of the Act may be utilized by private parties against landlords who discriminate.

[hatidua]

Sounds to me like he made some deals with the buyers and thinks you should have to foot the bill for all of it.

That's how it reads to me as well.

[spqrzilla]

Boulder's handbook includes statements of the law that are specific to Boulder only - not all of Colorado.

[jerrymrc]

At least you are dealing with one and not a company. I still remember when I left my Apt in Saudi Aurora in 88. I asked the manager if he wanted my BBQ grill when I left. He said sure, just leave it.....

Funny I was charged exactly what my deposit was to "remove and dispose of left over appliances on the deck". Needless to say I made things right when I returned in 93.[Flower]

[muddywings]

Say the hell with it. Invite every neighborhood mutt inside and feed them wet cat food. Come back in 8 hours to let them out. j/k

I highly doubt they have changed to lock code yet.....hmmmmm..... ;)

[def90]

Boulder's handbook includes statements of the law that are specific to Boulder only - not all of Colorado.

The only part of the handbook that is not in common with the rest of the state is the section pertaining to earning interest on security deposits.

[muddywings]

So I thought I would revive this to continue my saga of crazy landlord dude.
I get an email today:

Hi,
I trust that you guys have settled down in your new place.Congratulations
again.

I just wanted to touch base on one or two items:

First, when I returned and I went to inspect the house, I was deeply
disappointed that the carpet was not cleaned as you had promised. In your
previous e mail you said that, " I have cleaned the carpets as per how
they were we we took over as rentersŠ" Again you restated that,"...I have
cleaned the house to the standard in which we took possessionŠ" I was so
disappointed that several sections of the carpets are very dirty and I am
very confident that that's not how those carpets were before you rented
the house. Before contracting someone else to clean the carpets again, I
would like you and I to meet at the house so that I can show you what I am
talking about. I do not mind whether you are willing to cover the cleaning
costs or not but I want you to know the truth. Please let me know the day
and time that works best for you and I will be at the house in person.

Second, I wanted to let you know that I have mailed your refund check of
$1500 for the rental deposit. Please acknowledge receipt in writing and
let me know.

Thanks,
Landlord dufus

*break break*

Now advice I've gotten is pretty similar.
Option 1: cash check, acknowledge check, advise landlord to have a nice day and ignore from here on out
Option 2: cash check, acknowledge check, meet landlord, let him vent advise him that anything he is seeing is either normal wear and tear or was there prior.

I'm leaning towards option 1.
Frankly IMHO, this guy is looking to prey on my generosity but knows he has no case but wants to see what he can sell me. (Disclaimer, I'm a pretty nice renter-I've paid rent in 6 month installments, I've fixed: hose-bib that had a leak, sprinkler solenoids that weren't shutting off, done landscaping work all at no cost.)
Why he would send me the deposit in full then ask for me to meet him about the carpet ignores all logic and common sense. To me, he just admitted the house is returned to a satisfactory level.

So, looking for outside opinions and ask if I'm missing something here?!?!

[lowspeed_highdrag]

So I thought I would revive this to continue my saga of crazy landlord dude.
I get an email today:

Hi,
I trust that you guys have settled down in your new place.Congratulations
again.

I just wanted to touch base on one or two items:

First, when I returned and I went to inspect the house, I was deeply
disappointed that the carpet was not cleaned as you had promised. In your
previous e mail you said that, " I have cleaned the carpets as per how
they were we we took over as rentersŠ" Again you restated that,"...I have
cleaned the house to the standard in which we took possessionŠ" I was so
disappointed that several sections of the carpets are very dirty and I am
very confident that that's not how those carpets were before you rented
the house. Before contracting someone else to clean the carpets again, I
would like you and I to meet at the house so that I can show you what I am
talking about. I do not mind whether you are willing to cover the cleaning
costs or not but I want you to know the truth. Please let me know the day
and time that works best for you and I will be at the house in person.

Second, I wanted to let you know that I have mailed your refund check of
$1500 for the rental deposit. Please acknowledge receipt in writing and
let me know.

Thanks,
Landlord dufus

*break break*

Now advice I've gotten is pretty similar.
Option 1: cash check, acknowledge check, advise landlord to have a nice day and ignore from here on out
Option 2: cash check, acknowledge check, meet landlord, let him vent advise him that anything he is seeing is either normal wear and tear or was there prior.

I'm leaning towards option 1.
Frankly IMHO, this guy is looking to prey on my generosity but knows he has no case but wants to see what he can sell me. (Disclaimer, I'm a pretty nice renter-I've paid rent in 6 month installments, I've fixed: hose-bib that had a leak, sprinkler solenoids that weren't shutting off, done landscaping work all at no cost.)
Why he would send me the deposit in full then ask for me to meet him about the carpet ignores all logic and common sense. To me, he just admitted the house is returned to a satisfactory level.

So, looking for outside opinions and ask if I'm missing something here?!?!
Send the pictures, state that the check is received, and that you no longer have business dealings with him. If he wants to contact you further he can find you at your attorneys number.

[Zundfolge]

This landlord's name wouldn't happen to be Mark Cunningham would it?

[BigDee]

Send the pictures, state that the check is received, and that you no longer have business dealings with him. If he wants to contact you further he can find you at your attorneys number.

Yup.

No need to go any further with him. He sent you your deposit back which means he has accepted the property as is in its current condition.

Email him back and thank him for returning the deposit but decline his request to meet.