Mick-Boy
09-10-2013, 12:18
I attended Bob Vogel (http://www.vogeldynamics.com/)’s World Class Pistol Skills class at Spear Point Ranch in Kansas Sept 7-8 2013. Primary instruction for the class was handled by Mr. Vogel. The class was arranged through Grey Group Training.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8QrWm3Acc0
Before I get rolling, if you haven’t read Doc Roberts AAR (http://www.lightfighter.net/topic/robert-vogel-2-day-pistol-class-aar-01-nov-2012) of this class (different location, same POI) on Lightfigher you’re missing out. He must actually pay attention and take notes. ;)
Gun/Gear – I was shooting a G19 with an X300U pistol light. The pistol has Dawson adjustable sights and a KKM barrel. Stippling was done by Ben Simonson at Boresight Solutions.
http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l305/malonpm/Lightfighter/IMG_0058_zps3a13912f.jpg
1st line – I wore a maxpedition LIGER belt and a JM Custom Kydex holster and pistol mag pouch.
2nd line – None.
All the equipment functioned as designed. There were a few operator induced issues that I’ll address later.
CLASS POI –As a general rule I don’t usually run through the entire POI drill by drill but here's the general layout. (If you want to know what someone teaches that bad, go take the class. ;) )
The class began with about an hour of discussion on safety, shooting and gear.
Mr. Vogel discussed some of his training and equipment. A few points to mention from this;
First is trigger control. Mr. Vogel taught that trigger control is the most important aspect of accurate shooting. He works this with dry fire. Specifically he practices working the trigger several times even though it only breaks on the first press. This allows practicing multiple shots without relaxing his grip on the gun.
Next is the grip. To control the gun during a rapid string of fire Mr. Vogel teaches to grab the gun as high on the frame as you can. He pinches the gun with his strong hand and uses inward rotation with both arms to apply pressure to the frame of the gun. Mr. Vogel is a big believer in grip training and uses the Captains of Crush grip trainers (available from Iron Mind) for this purpose.
I started using these same grip trainers after a discussion with Flashpoint a few months ago and it’s had a noticeable effect on my grip strength. Particularly when shooting rapid strings of fire.
After the Safety brief we moved out to the range.
The range was a clearing on the edge of a creek. Spear Point Ranch had target stands for paper, some steel IPSC targets (as well as some big “E” type gongs we didn’t use and a Texas Star we did). There were also lots of trees to provide shade. That was awesome because the weather claimed it was in the 90s both days. With some shade and a nice breeze it was pretty comfortable shooting weather.
Mr. Vogel was self-effacing and extremely personable. He was never arrogant and he was perfectly willing to get up in front of the class and demonstrate everything he taught. If he messed something it was used as a learning opportunity and then he re-shot it.
The shooting drills were pretty standard fair. Mr. Vogel is a big advocate of shooting 6 round drills. His perspective is that you to be able to consistently establish a good grip to control a gun through six rounds (vs. being able to scam on a good grip when only firing one or two shots).
The first day we shot from 15yds and in. The second day we shot from 25yds and in and addressed multiple targets and movement. We wrapped the class up shooting a simulated stage after which we shot a drill head to head. The fastest guy in the class (an area LEO) then went head to head with Mr. Vogel and got burned down(… but he did it with style).
Personal Lessons Learned –
If you start changing your grip, you might need to rethink parts – I mentioned earlier that I started using the COC grippers a few months back. Something I noticed recently is that I’m gripping the pistol higher and harder with my support hand. One side effect of this is that I’ve started to lock the slide to the rear by putting pressure on my Vickers Slide stop. I fucked myself on a couple of drills (I ended up doing a mag change when there were still rounds in the magazine).
I like the Vickers slide stop (I had them on most of my guns for the last couple of years). But if I’m gripping the gun higher and harder it no longer works for me. Fortunately RumPunch had an OEM part in his bag and he swapped me for mine. No issues after that.
Understand your pace. Know when you can ramp it up and when you need to dial it back – Shooting a Bill Drill from 7yds you can really burn it down. Doing the same thing from 15yds might require a little more time between shots. Understanding what you’re capable of is key.
I may be rethinking my sights – I can hold on one target and track my front sight while I fire multiple rounds without much difficulty. Shooting multiple targets (picking the sight back up after my eyes move laterally) isn’t as easy and I don’t feel like I’m as fast as I could be.
I got away from night sights a few years back because I don’t see a ton of use for them. (If it’s so dark that I can’t see my sights, I can’t see to ID my target either.) As a result, I have a few guns with a tritium front sight but most of my guns are black front and rear. I’m going to play around with both set ups and see what, if any, quantifiable difference that makes in my times.
There are no shortcuts to being blazing fast and oily smooth – Anyone who thinks there is just needs to look at Mr. Vogel’s right hand. That dude has serious callouses built up where most of us complain about getting rubbed a little raw from a weekend of shooting. That’s indicative of hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of repetitions. Most of them dry practice. This is a man dedicated to his craft, and there are no short cuts to get there.
Don’t let yourself Stagnate – Constantly update what you consider fast/accurate. Don’t just shoot drills out of a book and accept their standards for speed and accuracy. Push yourself right up to the point of failure and then back off just a touch. Be able to ride that line.
Like a lot of classes I’ve attended, one of the greatest parts was the other students. Sitting around during lunch and discussing trainers, gear, drills and telling lies was a good time.
Overall this was a good class. Mr. Vogel’s perspective on training is definitely applicable to anyone serious about pistol work. His insights into thinking and planning during competition were also really interesting.. Even for someone like me, who rarely shoots matches.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8QrWm3Acc0
Before I get rolling, if you haven’t read Doc Roberts AAR (http://www.lightfighter.net/topic/robert-vogel-2-day-pistol-class-aar-01-nov-2012) of this class (different location, same POI) on Lightfigher you’re missing out. He must actually pay attention and take notes. ;)
Gun/Gear – I was shooting a G19 with an X300U pistol light. The pistol has Dawson adjustable sights and a KKM barrel. Stippling was done by Ben Simonson at Boresight Solutions.
http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l305/malonpm/Lightfighter/IMG_0058_zps3a13912f.jpg
1st line – I wore a maxpedition LIGER belt and a JM Custom Kydex holster and pistol mag pouch.
2nd line – None.
All the equipment functioned as designed. There were a few operator induced issues that I’ll address later.
CLASS POI –As a general rule I don’t usually run through the entire POI drill by drill but here's the general layout. (If you want to know what someone teaches that bad, go take the class. ;) )
The class began with about an hour of discussion on safety, shooting and gear.
Mr. Vogel discussed some of his training and equipment. A few points to mention from this;
First is trigger control. Mr. Vogel taught that trigger control is the most important aspect of accurate shooting. He works this with dry fire. Specifically he practices working the trigger several times even though it only breaks on the first press. This allows practicing multiple shots without relaxing his grip on the gun.
Next is the grip. To control the gun during a rapid string of fire Mr. Vogel teaches to grab the gun as high on the frame as you can. He pinches the gun with his strong hand and uses inward rotation with both arms to apply pressure to the frame of the gun. Mr. Vogel is a big believer in grip training and uses the Captains of Crush grip trainers (available from Iron Mind) for this purpose.
I started using these same grip trainers after a discussion with Flashpoint a few months ago and it’s had a noticeable effect on my grip strength. Particularly when shooting rapid strings of fire.
After the Safety brief we moved out to the range.
The range was a clearing on the edge of a creek. Spear Point Ranch had target stands for paper, some steel IPSC targets (as well as some big “E” type gongs we didn’t use and a Texas Star we did). There were also lots of trees to provide shade. That was awesome because the weather claimed it was in the 90s both days. With some shade and a nice breeze it was pretty comfortable shooting weather.
Mr. Vogel was self-effacing and extremely personable. He was never arrogant and he was perfectly willing to get up in front of the class and demonstrate everything he taught. If he messed something it was used as a learning opportunity and then he re-shot it.
The shooting drills were pretty standard fair. Mr. Vogel is a big advocate of shooting 6 round drills. His perspective is that you to be able to consistently establish a good grip to control a gun through six rounds (vs. being able to scam on a good grip when only firing one or two shots).
The first day we shot from 15yds and in. The second day we shot from 25yds and in and addressed multiple targets and movement. We wrapped the class up shooting a simulated stage after which we shot a drill head to head. The fastest guy in the class (an area LEO) then went head to head with Mr. Vogel and got burned down(… but he did it with style).
Personal Lessons Learned –
If you start changing your grip, you might need to rethink parts – I mentioned earlier that I started using the COC grippers a few months back. Something I noticed recently is that I’m gripping the pistol higher and harder with my support hand. One side effect of this is that I’ve started to lock the slide to the rear by putting pressure on my Vickers Slide stop. I fucked myself on a couple of drills (I ended up doing a mag change when there were still rounds in the magazine).
I like the Vickers slide stop (I had them on most of my guns for the last couple of years). But if I’m gripping the gun higher and harder it no longer works for me. Fortunately RumPunch had an OEM part in his bag and he swapped me for mine. No issues after that.
Understand your pace. Know when you can ramp it up and when you need to dial it back – Shooting a Bill Drill from 7yds you can really burn it down. Doing the same thing from 15yds might require a little more time between shots. Understanding what you’re capable of is key.
I may be rethinking my sights – I can hold on one target and track my front sight while I fire multiple rounds without much difficulty. Shooting multiple targets (picking the sight back up after my eyes move laterally) isn’t as easy and I don’t feel like I’m as fast as I could be.
I got away from night sights a few years back because I don’t see a ton of use for them. (If it’s so dark that I can’t see my sights, I can’t see to ID my target either.) As a result, I have a few guns with a tritium front sight but most of my guns are black front and rear. I’m going to play around with both set ups and see what, if any, quantifiable difference that makes in my times.
There are no shortcuts to being blazing fast and oily smooth – Anyone who thinks there is just needs to look at Mr. Vogel’s right hand. That dude has serious callouses built up where most of us complain about getting rubbed a little raw from a weekend of shooting. That’s indicative of hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of repetitions. Most of them dry practice. This is a man dedicated to his craft, and there are no short cuts to get there.
Don’t let yourself Stagnate – Constantly update what you consider fast/accurate. Don’t just shoot drills out of a book and accept their standards for speed and accuracy. Push yourself right up to the point of failure and then back off just a touch. Be able to ride that line.
Like a lot of classes I’ve attended, one of the greatest parts was the other students. Sitting around during lunch and discussing trainers, gear, drills and telling lies was a good time.
Overall this was a good class. Mr. Vogel’s perspective on training is definitely applicable to anyone serious about pistol work. His insights into thinking and planning during competition were also really interesting.. Even for someone like me, who rarely shoots matches.