Has zero tolerance gone too far? (Again)

[SuperiorDG]

Boys suspended for airsoft guns in yard Has zero tolerance gone too far?
By Andy Fox


Updated: Monday, September 23, 2013, 10:37 AM EDT
Published: Monday, September 23, 2013, 10:37 AM EDT




(1/2)Is "Zero tolerance" breaking new boundaries?

http://media2.wavy.com/photo/2013/09/23/Is__Zero_tolerance__breaking_new_boundar_147978000 0_3078033_ver1.0_640_480.jpg (2/2)





VIRGINIA BEACH, Va. (WAVY) - Monday, a suspended seventh grade Virginia Beach student will find out if he is expelled for the rest of the year for shooting an airsoft gun.
Like thousands of others in Hampton Roads, Khalid Caraballo plays with airsoft guns. Caraballo and his friend Aidan were suspended because they shot two other friends who were with them while playing with the guns as they waited for the bus to come.
WAVY News’ Andy Fox spoke with Khalid and asked if he took the gun to the bus stop or school. Khalid answered “No, sir,” to both questions.
Aidan’s father Tim Clark told WAVY.com what happened next lacks commons sense. The children were suspended for possession, handling and use of a firearm.
A toy gun that never went to the bus stop, the bus or school.
Has zero tolerance gone too far? Andy Fox looks into the policy in a special report beginning at 5 p.m. on WAVY News.

[merl]

Even if it did make it to a bus stop, that is still a public sidewalk not a school.

[Zundfolge]

Zero Tolerance starts out as a position "too far". But this is even more ridiculous.

Schools should have zero say in what children do when they're not at school. Period.

[RblDiver]

Even if it did make it to a bus stop, that is still a public sidewalk not a school.

But these days, schools love to claim authority over kids no matter where they are. They'd argue that the kids were waiting for the bus, even if not at the stop, which therefore places them under their purview.

[RCCrawler]

The children were suspended for possession, handling and use of a firearm.

An airsoft gun isn't a firearm.

[Colorado_Outback]

Schools should have zero say in what children do when they're not at school. Period.

100%

What my kid does on our time is nobody's business but ours.

[sellersm]

But these days, schools love to claim authority over kids no matter where they are. They'd argue that the kids were waiting for the bus, even if not at the stop, which therefore places them under their purview.

Ding! Ding! Follow this logic to its logical end... Especially with 19 States adopting the g0v's new "health" mandates & sending home 'fat kid letters' telling parents their little school kids are obese & have too high of BMI. And those schools that now offer breakfast & lunch for ALL kids.

Who's yo daddy? SCHOOL. That's who. And in case you missed it, school = g0v. 'Nuff said.

[sellersm]

Here are just 2 references for what I mentioned:

http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2013/09/02/boston-public-schools-will-offer-free-lunches-all-students/2aaUy5sxJjIak9ndGDHxkJ/story.html

http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2013/09/04/schools-sending-fat-letters-to-parents-about-overweight-children/

[theGinsue]

An airsoft gun isn't a firearm.
It is of it's discharged (fired) in Colorado Springs. My son & his friends were almost arrested (and I was almost tazed) about 4 years ago for "discharging a firearm within the city limits" while having an "airsoft war" with each other. Technically, even a Super Soaker squirt gun meets the criteria.

The laws are out of control.

[Zundfolge]

Here's a window into the mindset of most of the people that run public education.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3qtpdSQox0

[Bailey Guns]

I have ZERO TOLERANCE for ZERO TOLERANCE policies or for people who think they're a good thing.

[hatidua]

If you teach an entire generation of children that toy guns are bad, even forming your hand to mimic a gun is bad, imagine what those kids will think of real guns. It's a potentially very effective way to change public perception of firearms in just one generation...

[spyder]

It is of it's discharged (fired) in Colorado Springs. My son & his friends were almost arrested (and I was almost tazed) about 4 years ago for "discharging a firearm within the city limits" while having an "airsoft war" with each other. Technically, even a Super Soaker squirt gun meets the criteria.

The laws are out of control.That's a little out of hand... I wonder why, what rules they follow? Per everyone's government agency the ATF, those are not firearms... The ends were orange right?

[Bailey Guns]

If you teach an entire generation of children that toy guns are bad, even forming your hand to mimic a gun is bad, imagine what those kids will think of real guns. It's a potentially very effective way to change public perception of firearms in just one generation...

And for God's sake, whatever you do, don't eat your Pop-Tart into the vague shape of a gun.

[sellersm]

If you teach an entire generation of children that toy guns are bad, even forming your hand to mimic a gun is bad, imagine what those kids will think of real guns. It's a potentially very effective way to change public perception of firearms in just one generation...

And that's all the time it takes to turn a nation. Many studies have shown this. And 'they' know it! Who do you think has funded much of the research into these types of areas (social engineering, norms, memes, etc.)? Yup, you guessed it.

One of the most successful studies was done, I think, in the early 80's using computer modeling. It proved that without any kind of intentional teaching (passing down taught values) between generations, the subsequent generations will never be able to continue with the values that made the prior generations 'successful'. It involved a simple model of "prey" and "predators". Early on, the prey finally learned how to avoid the predators, but after many generations, all the prey disappeared again. The generations of prey that survived, did so by 'instinct' as they had 'seen' their ancestors avoiding predators. After many more generations, this 'instinct' disappeared and all the prey were eaten by the predators. It wasn't until the prey were able to 'teach' their younger generations the reason 'WHY' they needed to avoid the predators, that the prey then successfully survived! As long as the teaching was present, all the future generations would continue to thrive...

Any ideas who some of the people were that had a keen interest in this study and its findings?

[sellersm]

Actually, to be honest, I thought this thread was going to be about a cool new knife from ZT! [Coffee]

[Aloha_Shooter]

Part of the problem is that "zero" tolerance isn't really zero and it's employed stupidly. They refuse to take action against gangbangers or hoodlums because it's "racial profiling" or "culturally insensitive" but then go nuts over a tool (pocketknife) or cookie/sandwich bit into the shape of Maryland or Florida. Want the next generation of Americans to actually be able to function as self-reliant capable members of society? Toss out 95% of the NEA-inspired curriculum changes from the last 20-30 years and go back to teaching reading, 'riting, 'rithmetic and civics -- and for God's sake, use Civics texts and lesson plans from the 50s instead of the garbage they want to teach now.

[kanmac]

Shouldn't the State of Florida outline also be banned from any type of media because it is really close to a gun shape? As close as a Pop-Tart or finger anyway. I'm also afraid I can't talk about Fred Flintstone's son in public anymore.

[SuperiorDG]

I would bet if he were part of a well regulated Militia he would have been GTG.

[hatidua]

Actually, to be honest, I thought this thread was going to be about a cool new knife from ZT! [Coffee]

That's what initially popped into my mind as well!

[MrPrena]

No common sense tards like this makes international news. Makes us look real stupid as well.

[crays]

Shouldn't the State of Florida outline also be banned from any type of media because it is really close to a gun shape? As close as a Pop-Tart or finger anyway. I'm also afraid I can't talk about Fred Flintstone's son in public anymore.

Fred and Wilma's daughter was Pebbles. Barney and Betty's son was Bam-Bam.

[asmo]

If you teach an entire generation of children that toy guns are bad, even forming your hand to mimic a gun is bad, imagine what those kids will think of real guns. It's a potentially very effective way to change public perception of firearms in just one generation...

Winner winner. Go take a look at who has been pushing the zero-tolerance laws and you will see it is the anti-gun crowd. There was a leaked document from one of them a few years ago talking about this. Changing hearts and minds..

Or what did Orwell say: “Power is in tearing human minds to pieces and putting them together again in new shapes of your own choosing.”

[speedysst]

I think the letter "L" should be banned as well.
Shouldn't the State of Florida outline also be banned from any type of media because it is really close to a gun shape? As close as a Pop-Tart or finger anyway. I'm also afraid I can't talk about Fred Flintstone's son in public anymore.

[Bailey Guns]

I think the etter "" should be banned as we.

FIFY.

[Coffee]

[kanmac]

Fred and Wilma's daughter was Pebbles. Barney and Betty's son was Bam-Bam.

Oops. Thanks for the correction. I guess pebbles will soon get you arrested also.

[Gman]

Zero Tolerance starts out as a position "too far".
Agreed. Zero Tolerance requires engaging zero brain cells. That's a bad position from the get-go.

[sellersm]

Or this incident in a small town:

http://www.wafb.com/story/23507076/live-oak-middle-elementary-briefly-placed-on-lockdown


WATSON, LA (WAFB) -A 15-year-old boy is now in the Florida Parishes Detention Center after he was seen on a bicycle near Live Oak Middle school and South Live Oak Elementary school in Watson, LA.
A Livingston Parish School employee saw the teen, and what appeared to be a potential threat, near the schools. The schools were placed on lock down around 10 a.m.
The teen never stepped foot on school property, but he did have an air-soft pellet pistol, knife and hatchet in his possession when police took him into custody on Cecil Drive.

A Livingston Parish Sheriff's Office School Resource Officer and LPSO Deputies were able to quickly take the 15-year-old into custody.
"While we don't believe the intent was to harm - protocols put in place by the Livingston Parish School System and the LPSO worked just as practiced. Observant and quick-thinking individuals took action and a potential threat was taken out of the equation. As a father of 2 children in the Livingston Parish School System, I am grateful for the open communication between School Officials & Law Enforcement," said Livingston Parish Sheriff Jason Ard.
The teen was charged with one count of terrorizing and two counts of illegal carrying of weapons.

[spqrzilla]

These days school bureaucrats understand nothing but the threat of a lawsuit. Petty little tyrants.

Tar and feathers went out of style far too soon.

[nynco]

Well zero tolerance was born out of the conservative call for 3 strikes laws. I think the only way we can get this insanity to stop is to stop it at all levels. Which includes pushing to overturn mandatory min laws... which are unconstitutional in my opinion.

[theGinsue]

That's a little out of hand... I wonder why, what rules they follow? Per everyone's government agency the ATF, those are not firearms... The ends were orange right?
Oh yeah, and I pointed that out to the officers. I let them know that according to Federal law, these were classified as "toys", not firearms. They then quoted the city ordinance on discharging a firearm. That's when I pointed out that any 5 year old with a Super Soaker was also guilty of violating this law. They said "Now you're just being ridiculous". I told them that classifying an orange-tipped toy as a firearm was equally ridiculous. I didn't make any friends with them that day and felt lucky to not have gotten arrested for spelling it out to them. They definitely weren't applying common sense.

[spqrzilla]

Well zero tolerance was born out of the conservative call for 3 strikes laws. I think the only way we can get this insanity to stop is to stop it at all levels. Which includes pushing to overturn mandatory min laws... which are unconstitutional in my opinion.

Nonsense. They are unrelated. In the criminal arena, we have the concept of prosecutorial discretion, nothing like "zero tolerance" which explicitly rejection any application of discretion as to whether or not conduct is an offense. And the idea that mandatory minimum sentence laws are unconstitutional is simply frivolous.

But more directly, this isn't even "zero tolerance" - this is outright tyranny of school bullies dressed as bureaurcrats purporting to regulate behavior outside of their jurisdiction.

[nynco]

Its all related, mandatory mins = zero tolerance for our kids. Its creating a climate where officials in schools over react. It all goes back to a mindset of punish at all costs. Mandatory min laws are legislative over ruling the courts. Just like zero tolerance is psycho school leadership over ruling teachers discretion. Its all big gov garbage.

[Aloha_Shooter]

nynco, that's a load of equine manure. Mandatory mins and "three strikes" laws were called for due to dangerous felons and repeat offenders continually getting light sentences by courts swayed by psychologists and sociologists pushing a bunch of malarkey. There is certainly evidence for rethinking some of these mandatory minimums and "three strike" laws but equating them to unthinking zero tolerance rules being overenforced by people who feel rather than think is ridiculous.

[Irving]

Schools get a lot of say on issues like this because of the "nexus" connecting kids to school outside of school hours and off the property. It's B.S.

[nynco]

Yeah there is a correlation, the get tough mindset bled over. We have the largest population in jail than any nation in the world and schools that are acting more like jails too.

Schools have no right to do this crap. Esp they should have no right to say jack crap about what happens outside of school.

[Zundfolge]

Zero tolerance rules are about social engineering and outright brainwashing.

Ban X because X is inherently evil and we don't even want to discuss it.

[nynco]

Zero tolerance effects much more than just gun issues. Its a real problem for a lot of things.

[SuperiorDG]

It's funny that the same people pushing zero tolerance also push "common sense".

[nynco]

absolutism never works well when humans are involved. It is in itself a form of tyranny.

[Bailey Guns]

Well zero tolerance was born out of the conservative call for 3 strikes laws. I think the only way we can get this insanity to stop is to stop it at all levels. Which includes pushing to overturn mandatory min laws... which are unconstitutional in my opinion.

And you were doing so well...

[nynco]

Bailey I am realist. Judges have a constitutional duty and taking away that constitutional power is not right. Just as mandatory punishments like zero tolerance. This garbage is leading to a lot of wasted lives and money.

[spqrzilla]

Bailey I am realist. Judges have a constitutional duty and taking away that constitutional power is not right. Just as mandatory punishments like zero tolerance. This garbage is leading to a lot of wasted lives and money.

Nonsense. You've invented a nonexistant "duty".

By the way, nynco, the reality is that there is a direct correlation between increased rates of incarceration and lower crime rates. Our high incarceration rate is in fact one of the reasons that overall crime rates have dropped over recent decades.

You've successfully trolled the discussion away from [b]school district[b] conduct.

[nynco]

Bailey, Do you understand what the constitutional duty of the courts is?

Sorry about the side track... I will stop

[asmo]

Our high incarceration rate is in fact one of the reasons that overall crime rates have dropped over recent decades.


Correlation != Causation

[Gman]

Bailey, Do you understand what the constitutional duty of the courts is?

Sorry about the side track... I will stop
Oh, now that you've side tracked yet again...now you'll stop.[fail]

[spqrzilla]

Correlation != Causation
No, indeed it isn't. But it can be a clue.

[68Charger]

I understand nynco's point (shock-face)... but he's using the wrong words.. it's not the Judicial branch's "duty", but it is designed as part of the system of checks and balances...

Congress writing "zero tolerance" or "minimum sentence" laws over-rides the Judicial branch ability to keep the other branches of gov't in check.

[Aloha_Shooter]

Congress writing "zero tolerance" or "minimum sentence" laws over-rides the Judicial branch ability to keep the other branches of gov't in check.

You're almost right. Congress wrote minimum sentence laws because the public perceived that the courts were NOT doing their duty. Minimum sentence laws were in fact a check on the judicial branch's dereliction of duty with respect to violent offenders and drug traffickers. Zero tolerance policies are distorted at schools by whackos as an extrajudicial attempt to control the American "gun culture".

[nynco]

Its very convenient that all these min sentence rulings and other zero tolerance garbage came out at the same time as for profit prisons. It was never about the judges and all to do with profit.

[DavieD55]

Yes. When a child is suspended from school for

1. Having a poptart shaped like a pistol

2. Pretending to throw hand grenades at bad guys during recess

3. When a hearing impaired child has a sign name that resembles a finger pistol

4. When a Duck Commander T shirt or an NRA T shrit is deemed too dangerous for the classroom

5. When a child gets in trouble for saying the word "gun"

The list goes on and on.
That is when you come to the realization that zero tolerance policies of the public school system have descended into the depths of insanity.

[Gman]

...or when a child's mom packs a table knife in their lunch to help with their meal. No knives in schools, even if it's a rounded off tip best used for spreading butter. Instant penalties without any margin for thought or logic.

[Bailey Guns]

Bailey, Do you understand what the constitutional duty of the courts is?

Yes.

[SuperiorDG]

It's up on FOX now. http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/09/24/7th-grader-suspended-for-playing-with-airsoft-gun-in-own-yard/

[DavieD55]

WTF is going on in this country... [Rant1]