View Full Version : Assignment to the trust - when?
OK, I have seen multiple threads on "here is how you submit a Form 1 for an SBR using a trust" and one thing that just doesn't seem very clear to me is whether or not I am to include the (not yet approved) NFA item to the form when I submit it or after I get formal ATF stamp approving it? I see different people post that you have to "fund" the trust with the serial number of a bill but wouldnt the $100 lower receiver be the same? So basically, I have the engraved stripped lower, have the trust, have the forms filled out and just want to know if I have to put the item and ser# of the lower on the form before I send it? HELP NFA GURUs!! (oh and thanks in advance - this forum has been great for helping me get my Form 4 for the suppressor submitted).
mtnrider
09-27-2013, 08:30
I did not include the SBR until I receive the stamp. I put a dollar bill on my inventory just to have something there prior to sending it in. You might be able to get away with putting lower on there but I would go with the proven method of the dollar
With that said, didn't Obama sign something that put a end to the trust route?
Just put a dollar on there like mtnrider says. You need to have the trust funded for it to be valid. Also the trust going away thing is in the works so I would get your stuff in sooner then later. Unless your sheriff will sign off on them then don't worry about it now.
I did not include the SBR until I receive the stamp. I put a dollar bill on my inventory just to have something there prior to sending it in. You might be able to get away with putting lower on there but I would go with the proven method of the dollar
With that said, didn't Obama sign something that put a end to the trust route?
Thanks I will do that and put the dollar away in my safe with the trust. As far as the Trust going away, my understanding (note I am not a lawyer and I didnt stay at a Holiday Inn last night so take it for what it is worth $0.0) is that you would still be able to use a trust to protect the assets and allow them to be transferred to family members so they can legally be in posession of them. What would change is that anytime a class 3 item is added to the trust, EVERYONE in the trust has to get a background check done. So another suppressor means both my wife and I would have to go get the check done to take posession. Would that do away with the need for a trust? No, because it still protects family members and whomever else you put in the trust so they can handle and possess the class 3 items in case of your untimely demise. Just makes it way more complicated (as all recent liberal laws seem to do lately).
I did not include the SBR until I receive the stamp. I put a dollar bill on my inventory just to have something there prior to sending it in. You might be able to get away with putting lower on there but I would go with the proven method of the dollar
With that said, didn't Obama sign something that put a end to the trust route?
That's going to take a while to get implemented, but see below (kinda). I don't believe the trust is going away, I believe it is going to require background checks on every trustee and co-trustee whenever something goes in - thereby effectively killing the usefulness of a trust. Apparently all the gang bangers are using trusts to forgo background checks. [hahhah-no]
Just put a dollar on there like mtnrider says. You need to have the trust funded for it to be valid. Also the trust going away thing is in the works so I would get your stuff in sooner then later. Unless your sheriff will sign off on them then don't worry about it now.
You only send in what is currently in the trust.
I used a $2 bill to fund mine. :D It should be specified in the trust documents. The fund item and serial number should be the first thing on your schedule A.
I'm curious how you sent in a form 4 if you don't have the trust already funded?
I just transferred two lowers to my trust that I intend to get a SBR stamps for.
I think with Colorado's new law these should be owned by the trust prior to receiving the stamp so that you are not in a grey area of having to transfer the newly SBRed lowers into the trust and possibly having to re-apply for "transferring" the SBR lowers from you to your trust.
DeusExMachina
09-27-2013, 11:03
I transferred some random crap to my trust when applying for my first can. After I received the stamp, I listed only the can.
Trusts are weird in the sense that things can be added and removed from it at will, where not regulated by law (such as NFA items).
The Trust is making and registering a non-NFA gun into a NFA SBR. The Trust can not make and register a NFA SBR out of a gun it does not own. The Trust must list it to own the gun. So I always list the regular gun on my Trust Schedule A before I send it in. That way the ATF knows the Trust owns it.
That's my line of thinking anyway. Who knows how the twisted mind of a bureaucrat thinks.
DeusExMachina
09-27-2013, 15:58
So how do you explain buying a suppressor? Or building one? You are transferring it to the trust via the ATF. It is not necessary for the trust to own it first. Which is impossible in most cases.
So how do you explain buying a suppressor? Or building one? You are transferring it to the trust via the ATF. It is not necessary for the trust to own it first. Which is impossible in most cases.
Form 1 is making and registering a NFA item. A Form 4 transfers an already existing NFA registered item.
When a Trust makes and registers a NFA item from scratch, silencer or SBR, using a Form 1, the Trust is making and registering a NFA item that did not exist before. The Trust has to have the approved Form 1 in hand before it cuts metal. A regular non-NFA Title 1 gun must be owned by the Trust when it makes the SBR from a regular Title 1 gun.
You have to have an approved Form 1 for the Trust before cutting metal if the Trust is using a Form 1 to make and register a SBR from a 80% lower receiver. The Trust should own the lower receiver when it makes and registers a SBR made from a Colt lower receiver. The Trust can own the non-NFA lower. The Trust can't put a short upper on the lower until they have an approved Form 1 in hand.
A Trust can't possess an already registered NFA item until the transfer to the Trust is approved through a Form 4 transfer. For example, a Gemtec suppressor is already a NFA registered item. You are transferring, not making and registering, a registered silencer to the Trust.
I hope this helps.
I am not a lawyer. This is just my understanding of the laws and regulations.
DeusExMachina
09-27-2013, 18:23
My point is when you make (Form 1) a suppressor you don't put "Metal tube" on your schedule A.
Adding a firearm to a trust before building (applying a Form 1) is extraneous. I didn't do it, twice.
My point is when you make (Form 1) a suppressor you don't put "Metal tube" on your schedule A.
Adding a firearm to a trust before building (applying a Form 1) is extraneous. I didn't do it, twice.
Sorry, I misunderstood you. I didn't add my silencer to my Trust until I had received my approved Form 1 back and I had it completed enough to put a serial number on it.
You folks do realize that moving a firearm to the trust is a transfer, and as such can't be done privately in Colorado as of July 1st, don't you?
What makes this really, really bad is the transfer to the trust is a legal document and probably has a date on it which would make an open and shut case against you.
Here in Colorado we don't have to wait for the ATF to require BG checks for everyone on the trust for every transfer, it's the law of the state right now.
Damn Morse.
O2
I haven't added anything to my Trust in almost a year so I'm clear there. I find it kinda amusing in a disgusting way that I may be doing a background check on myself to transfer something from me to my Trust. I also figure if I acquire anything new-to-me for the Trust I'll just have the Trust buy it from the start.
I've also been trying to figure out if I have to do a background check on a firearm that is created by my Trust. For example if my Trust makes a silencer I'm thinking I'll have to go to my local friendly FFL to do a background check on me when I add it to the Trust inventory.
One other thing, we will have to wait for a CLEO sign off for all responsible persons if the new ATF Trust thing goes through, in addition to a state check.
Phooey! All this is giving me a headache.
This is my understanding as well. I bought a stripped lower and just sent the paperwork off for an sbr. Under the current CO laws I will have to perform a background check as my name, trustee to ABC trust to assign the lower to the trust. is this the way it goes? NFA trust guy this is directed to you as you are a lawyer and might have stayed at a Holy day inn
NFATrustGuy
09-28-2013, 21:53
The last time I stayed at a Holiday Inn was back in April (thank goodness--most of them suck) so that's not much help.
Yes, the way I read the law, you will have to do a background check on yourself as Trustee when you transfer a firearm to the Trust. From a legal standpoint, it's a separate entity. Stupid? Yes, but that's Colorado under the command of Bloom... I mean Hickenlooper.
The timing of the transfer is sensitive. When you submit a Form 1 in the name of the Trust, the approved application gives the Trust permission to build a particular lower into an SBR. The Trust needs to own the lower before it turns into an SBR, so you'll need to transfer it to the Trust and do a background check as required by Colorado law AND THEN build the SBR.
It sounded like someone in this thread threw in a twist of manufacturing a suppressor. This requires a little more care. Again, make sure the Form 1 is in the name of the Trust. The Trust builds a suppressor and then owns it until it's transferred to a new owner. The transfer to the new owner will require a Form 4. If you manufacture a suppressor in your own name -personally- it takes a full-blown Form 4 application to transfer it to the Trust.
Hope this answers the question.
Rod
Yes it does. It sounds like I should have purchased the lower under the trust. Is it okay to do the transfer now. I just sent the paperwork in this past week. God these laws #$@!@!@#$%^ blow. I own another lower and transferred it to the trust when I received the paperwork back from the ATF. Fudge. Do I need to send in an amended asset list. I am already at 9-12 months at this point going with the current wait times. I wish you had been around when I set up my trust originally.
THANKS A BUNSH FOR THE ADVICE.
NFATrustGuy
09-28-2013, 23:33
You're still OK to transfer the lower to the Trust after the Form 1 is approved. I've gone back and forth on this answer, but as long as the Trust owns the lower before it's converted to an SBR, you should be OK. The Form 1 MUST HAVE BEEN SUBMITTED IN THE NAME OF THE TRUST or you'll have to build the SBR personally and then do a Form 4 to transfer the completed SBR to the Trust.
In other words, as long as the lower is JUST a lower, it can be transferred to the Trust using only a background check. Once the lower is assembled as an SBR, then it's an NFA-regulated item and must be transferred via a Form 4 (and a background check under Colorado law). In order to build an SBR, the Trust building the SBR must own the lower to be converted. The Trust must also obtain approval from the ATF via a Form 1. Whether the Trust actually owns the lower BEFORE the Form 1 is approved shouldn't matter.
Clear as mud?
Sorry. I didn't write these laws, I'm just doing my best to unscramble them.
Rod
COOL. THAT IS HOW I UNDERSTAND IT TO BE AS WELL. THANKS YOU SIR. STARTED TO FREAK OUT A BIT. I JUST NEED TO DO A BACKGROUND CEHCK ON MYSELF WHEN I TRANSFER IT OVER.
Great-Kazoo
09-29-2013, 00:46
You folks do realize that moving a firearm to the trust is a transfer, and as such can't be done privately in Colorado as of July 1st, don't you?
What makes this really, really bad is the transfer to the trust is a legal document and probably has a date on it which would make an open and shut case against you.
Here in Colorado we don't have to wait for the ATF to require BG checks for everyone on the trust for every transfer, it's the law of the state right now.
Damn Morse.
O2
My trust was formed prior to 7/01/2013. Anything I owned was transferred prior to that date, be it a standard or NFA item. I'm sure those who had, or formed a trust prior to July, did aslo.
I am the only trustee on the trust at this point. So my understanding is that I am the only one that needs a BGC. None of the beneficiaries need a check as they have no control unless I am dead. If I add any more trustees then they have to have a Check?
I am the only trustee on the trust at this point. So my understanding is that I am the only one that needs a BGC. None of the beneficiaries need a check as they have no control unless I am dead. If I add any more trustees then they have to have a Check?
Curious about this as well. If I wanted the trust to own a lower (for a future sbr build) would the grantor and all of the trustees need to be present for BGC's or can I just transfer it with a background check on myself as a trustee?
NFATrustGuy
09-29-2013, 20:02
Any PRESENT DAY Trustee needs a background check when transferring a FIREARM to a Trust. In my form of Gun Trust, we name backup Trustees. These Backup Trustees don't have any rights, responsibilities or power over the Trust until AFTER The main Trustee dies. These BACKUP Trustees won't need a background check until you die.
I also give people the option to name CO-Trustee(s). A Co-Trustee has present-day powers over the Trust including the ability to use/possess assets of the Trust. Under Colorado law, any Trustee who has legal access to a FIREARM held in a Trust must have a background check.
For my clients, what I'd suggest is that you keep the number of co-Trustees to a bare minimum to avoid unnecessary background checks. In a pinch, you could remove ALL co-Trustees from the Trust in anticipation of adding a firearm to the Trust. Before reestablishing someone as a co-Trustee, you'd still need to make sure to get a background check on the reinstated co-Trustee. For non-NFA items, you should first check to see if one of the exemptions might cover your particular situation and avoid the background check altogether. If, however, you want to share an NFA firearm, you'd need to name the person as co-Trustee and have the background check.
More clear as mud, right?!?!?
Rod
............
More clear as mud, right?!?!?
Rod
Thanks for the response. If the co-trustee lives out of state is this approached any differently? Kind of looking like I will have to wait until we are both in town and then transfer it to the trust (which is a major PITA)...
The funny thing about the law and wjo does what. The FFL that I used to transfer lowers to my trust called the CBI for clarification and they said to call the ATF for how to do this. The ATF said to just have the lawyer assign the lowers in the trust, no background check was needed. (true per federal law) Called the CBI back and ask them how to comply with the new Colorado law since the ATF didn't require one. They said one wasn't needed since the seller and trustee were the same person and the only trustee. We did a BG check and transfer anyway just in case.
Stupid poorly written laws that no one understands.
NFAGuy you are a great asset to this site.
NFATrustGuy
09-29-2013, 23:49
@Tx1021: Hmm. This is starting to sound like a law school test question... :-) First, make sure you understand the difference between a co-Trustee and a BACKUP Trustee. If you're concerned about a backup Trustee, don't be. See my previous post in this thread. If the out of state person is truly a co-Trustee, would it be practical to revoke his/her status temporarily until he/she visits Colorado for a background check? At least this way you could proceed with the purchase/transfer.
@ Eric P: I think you did the right thing in doing the BGC anyway. From a legal standpoint, I can see where the CBI person was coming from and I'd love to just go with that interpretation. Unfortunately, all it takes is one anti-gunner prosecutor or boss of a prosecutor to make an example out of someone. If at all possible, I'd try to get that CBI interpretation in writing. If not, if anyone out there plans to rely on advice given by a bureaucrat over the telephone, at a minimum you should get his/her name and title and follow up with a letter summarizing your understanding of what was said during the phone conversation. Such a letter certainly wouldn't be a get-out-of-jail-free card, but it'd at least show that you were **trying** to follow this dipshit unintelligible set of laws!
@Irving: Thanks for the kind words. This site has provided a significant amount of business for me over the past year so I try to help out when I can.
Rod
Great-Kazoo
09-30-2013, 06:30
@Tx1021: Hmm. This is starting to sound like a law school test question... :-) First, make sure you understand the difference between a co-Trustee and a BACKUP Trustee. If you're concerned about a backup Trustee, don't be. See my previous post in this thread. If the out of state person is truly a co-Trustee, would it be practical to revoke his/her status temporarily until he/she visits Colorado for a background check? At least this way you could proceed with the purchase/transfer.
@ Eric P: I think you did the right thing in doing the BGC anyway. From a legal standpoint, I can see where the CBI person was coming from and I'd love to just go with that interpretation. Unfortunately, all it takes is one anti-gunner prosecutor or boss of a prosecutor to make an example out of someone. If at all possible, I'd try to get that CBI interpretation in writing. If not, if anyone out there plans to rely on advice given by a bureaucrat over the telephone, at a minimum you should get his/her name and title and follow up with a letter summarizing your understanding of what was said during the phone conversation. Such a letter certainly wouldn't be a get-out-of-jail-free card, but it'd at least show that you were **trying** to follow this dipshit unintelligible set of laws!
@Irving: Thanks for the kind words. This site has provided a significant amount of business for me over the past year so I try to help out when I can.
Rod
ANYTIME, you deal with a .gov entity, OR business [cell ph, or internet providers], small office person. You should be writing down, NAME, DATE, TIME, brief description of conversation / what they said to you, etc. How many times has a call, or in person conversation turned in to, " Well we have no record" story.
UNTIL you inform them I talked with John / Jane Doe, Dec 12th, 11am MST, and they said xxxxx. Then things get real quiet for a few, the usual response is Give us a day or two to look in to it , we'll get back with an answer.
Yes Irving Rodney's not that bad a guy.
@Tx1021: Hmm. This is starting to sound like a law school test question... :-) First, make sure you understand the difference between a co-Trustee and a BACKUP Trustee. If you're concerned about a backup Trustee, don't be. See my previous post in this thread. If the out of state person is truly a co-Trustee, would it be practical to revoke his/her status temporarily until he/she visits Colorado for a background check? At least this way you could proceed with the purchase/transfer.
Definitely a co-trustee. We were trying to get a couple more items in the trust before the new federal laws got implemented against trusts so if one of us got taken off it would kind of defeat that. At least in my current, and limited, understanding of these ridiculous laws.
ETA:
NFAGuy you are a great asset to this site.
+1 The help is really appreciated. Unfortunately it feels like you almost need a law degree to even interpret and correctly follow the laws nowadays.
NFATrustGuy
09-30-2013, 13:58
Unfortunately it feels like you almost need a law degree to even interpret and correctly follow the laws nowadays.
I'm definitely no expert at political philosophy, but I seem to remember that one of the first steps in tyranny is labeling the 'governed' as criminals. Poorly written laws that are subject to variances in interpretation lead to one of two things: 1. Good people choose to avoid the subject altogether for fear of prosecution, or 2. Good people are convicted because some anti-gun bureaucrat comes into power and stretches the interpretation to fit his agenda.
In today's society where it is politically incorrect to maintain even basic standards of right and wrong, it's no surprise that we're headed down a path where what's right and wrong is determined by (and changed by) whoever happened to win the last election. We have constitutional protections to prevent this election-cycle reinterpretation, but we've also made it a habit of ignoring certain parts of the Constitution when it suits us. Once we started down the path of reinterpreting the Constitution, it's just a matter of degree... What is reinterpreted along with just how much it is stretched becomes a political question... Which brings us back full circle: What is right or Wong depends on who won the last election.
I'll probably suffer the consequences of trying to help people with these pitiful laws when somebody decides to push the issue and then throws me under the bus by saying NFATrustGuy said it was OK. The safest thing for me to do would be similar to my #1 option listed above... Keep my mouth shut and disengage. But that's not really my personality! :-)
Rod
Another question about all this. When if ever would you be asked if you had done a background check on a weapon? The only time I can see this arising would be if you have committed a crime with the weapon. If you are pulled over by the police and asked about your weapons can they look and see if you have performed a background check or would they have to arrest you, confiscate your weapons and do an investigation?
Also I have heard that the NFA trust thing will not be grandfathered and you will have a certain amount of time to send the ATF, fingerprints and LEO sign off. This is the real problem with the new NFA law, a lot of people live in counties that won't sign off so potentially a bunch of people may have to sell off their toys or relocate.
DeusExMachina
09-30-2013, 14:54
I built two SBRs without transferring the lowers to the trust first. I didn't have any complaints from the ATF. But then again they're not masters of consistency.
Great-Kazoo
09-30-2013, 15:33
Another question about all this. When if ever would you be asked if you had done a background check on a weapon? The only time I can see this arising would be if you have committed a crime with the weapon. If you are pulled over by the police and asked about your weapons can they look and see if you have performed a background check or would they have to arrest you, confiscate your weapons and do an investigation?
Also I have heard that the NFA trust thing will not be grandfathered and you will have a certain amount of time to send the ATF, fingerprints and LEO sign off. This is the real problem with the new NFA law, a lot of people live in counties that won't sign off so potentially a bunch of people may have to sell off their toys or relocate.
#1- NEVER CONSENT TO SEARCH OF VEHICLE
# 2- NEVER UNLESS INVOLVED IN A SELF DEFENSE SCENARIO. HAND OVER A FIREARM.
# 3 - The NFA thing refers to informing the local CLEO you have an NFA item / getting a signature. Stop worrying about that. You will need to include finger print cards and pictures when th e"new safer NFA" updated requirements take effect.
# 4 - DADT.
#1,2,4 are not a problem.
But I was under the impression that you will have to have a CLEO sign off on all trust not just finger prints and pictures.
#1,2,4 are not a problem.
But I was under the impression that you will have to have a CLEO sign off on all trust not just finger prints and pictures.
The way I read the proposed rule concerning Legal Entities (Trust, LLC & etc.) is that it only applies to Form 4 transfers and new making and registration of NFA firearms. It does require a CLEO sign off for Legal Entitiess like is required by individuals. The proposal does not address existing Trust owned NFA firearms. I am not an expert on Bureaucrat or Legal speak though.
Here is a link to the proposal. We have until December 9 to comment on it.
https://www.federalregister.gov/articles/2013/09/09/2013-21661/machine-guns-destructive-devices-and-certain-other-firearms-background-checks-for-responsible
This was briefly discussed in a previous threat-
https://www.ar-15.co/threads/113751-Trust-bypass-of-CLEO-possibly-going-away
muddywings
10-01-2013, 09:33
concerning co-trustee's-
I transferred a stripped lower to my trust via my local FFL and put it on my schedule A. I also asked about doing BGC when adding co-trustees and was advised by my FFL (head honcho came out and we BSed for a bit) that he couldn't just do a BGC without a weapon. So I transferred the lower from me, to my trust via me as Trustee-so that works. But if I wanted another BGC on a new co-trustee, then he would have to transfer the lower out of the trust to the new trustee, then back in via another co-trustee but he recommended not to do that. We jokingly discussed playing musical firearms with various co-trustees putting something in, then out, then in then out....totally hurt my head so I said, 'ok, well maybe by the time I get my stamp, we'll have this crap repealed.' I figured I could figure it out at a later time since my sbr stamp just went in.
Right now I don't think either my lawyer or my FFL are wrong, it's just that nobody really knows.
Right now I don't think either my lawyer or my FFL are wrong, it's just that nobody really knows.
ATF and CBI came out with guidance on how to do this. The FFL does not need to transfer the item to the his book before doing a BCG. They should run separate BCGs for each named co-trustee according to the law (and charge you appropriately).
Also - for those of you that are buying an NFA item out of your own pocket book and then transferring it to the trust when you get your paperwork back from the .gov -- without submitting another form 4 -- are committing felonies in many peoples eyes. You have just transferred an NFA item without informing the ATF and paying the $200 (again).
The simplest - easiest - and best way to buy NFA toys is to get a bank account in the name of the trust. Then buy all the NFA stuff via this bank account and pay for the tax stamp with this account. Then the trust has always owned it and there is no question if there was a transfer after the fact.
NFATrustGuy
10-01-2013, 10:44
There is no need for a separate bank account for the Trust. As long as the ATF application is in the name of the Trust you are fine.
muddywings
10-01-2013, 18:44
ATF and CBI came out with guidance on how to do this. The FFL does not need to transfer the item to the his book before doing a BCG. They should run separate BCGs for each named co-trustee according to the law (and charge you appropriately).
I'll have to try another FFL then to add the co-trustees. Any C-Springs recommendations?
ATF and CBI came out with guidance on how to do this. Also - for those of you that are buying an NFA item out of your own pocket book and then transferring it to the trust when you get your paperwork back from the .gov -- without submitting another form 4 -- are committing felonies in many peoples eyes. You have just transferred an NFA item without informing the ATF and paying the $200 (again).
Where is this citing? This is completely crazy! So with all this back and forth I am really unsure exactly what needs to happen now... My form 1 has the applicant in 3b as my trust name and the name and signature in block 7 is my own with "last, first middle, Trustee" in the title. The check was cashed so my paperwork is running. I did a BGC when I purchased the stripped lower so am I reading that I will have to do it AGAIN once I get an approved Form 1 stamp back?
Where is this citing? This is completely crazy! So with all this back and forth I am really unsure exactly what needs to happen now... My form 1 has the applicant in 3b as my trust name and the name and signature in block 7 is my own with "last, first middle, Trustee" in the title. The check was cashed so my paperwork is running. I did a BGC when I purchased the stripped lower so am I reading that I will have to do it AGAIN once I get an approved Form 1 stamp back?
Then you are fine(tm) unless someone wants to be a total asshole. The application was made in the name of the Trust so it is in the Trust's name.
You are doing a Form 1 so you (or - more importantly your Trust) already has the firearm, so you don't need to do a BCG again - since you were smart and transferred the asset (the firearm) to the Trust before you sent the Form 1 in, right (Schedule A)? and you transferred the asset to the Trust before the new law went into effect, right?
This is again why I am a proponent for the Trust having its own bank account. Then there is zero question about who owns the asset, and when, and there are no transfers/assignments. Granted I am a bit extreme in this area - but I tend to over-do things when my life and freedom are on the line. But thats just me.
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