Is anybody else sick of this?

[ldmaster]

The endless profiteering that our fellow gun guys are helping to encourage.

I'm not talking about capitalism, I'm talking about getting a gun via someone not interested in making a profit on it, then turning around and reselling it.

That is NOT capitalism, there is no "production" involved - the only reason the market exists at that high level is FEAR, and those profiting from it are doing nothing to quell the fear that makes it possible, like a drug dealer, they seem to revel in the fear and pain of others.

I'm sick of the argument, "I didn't make these conditions", "That's the American way.", "If I don't do it, somebody else will". They are a total and complete moral and ethical cop-out; and to think that those same mouths that would utter those word, would claim moral high ground with the founders of our country (who all LOST their fortunes to the effort, if not their lives).

If we could harness all the effort people go through, just on this board, to obtain a gun and make a buck off of it - and put it into acquiring manufacturing capacity and MAKING barrels, trunnion block and the miscellaneous small parts that make up an AK type rifle - we could put thousands of rifles into the hands of our fellow citizens WITHOUT raping their savings accounts.

This morning, an underfolder polish kitgun went for 1300 bucks. I kid you not. A scant two years ago you could get the kit for 120 (I did) and fold your own receiver with the required parts for less than 300 total, don't wanna fold your own? Nodaks' receivers were 72 bucks.

I wouldn't normally MIND this sort of stupid profiteering, except that guns are not about capitalism, or hunting, or even self-defense. The overriding reason to have our fellow citizens armed is to insure the honesty of our government. When we hoard, stockpile and treat this stuff like it's an "investment" we ill-serve the purposes of our republican form of government.

I do a yearly inventory of my collection. In the past year it has increased in value by 300 percent over my cost basis. That's DISGUSTING. I did nothing to increase their intrinsic value, and I produced nothing. I feel like there are thousands of little Bernie Madoff's out there selling - ethics be damned - they're gonna get THEIRS.

Meanwhile, kids who are brought up hunting are dwindling, people who consider shooting a good recreational sport are disappearing and we fall towards an inevitable collapse of our gun culture.

Case in point. Recently I bought a very large amount of bullets for reloading from someone from this board. He gave me a bulk price and I bought them all. I had a few people that I'm acquianted with who then bought them from me (for the same price I paid) and that was that. There were two kinds of bullets, and I'd resold all of one type and kept the other type. I went to one of the guys I sold 1400 of them to and asked if I could buy 100 to see if they shot well in my garand. Right then and there he told me I'd have to pay double what he bought them from me for 1 week prior. His words? "Well, you can't find these out ther anymore and they're worth at least that much."

An exact case in point.

This does not encourage me to share a "good find" with these guys anymore, they're no different than the Bernie Madoff's of the world. The people who invested with Madoff were no better than he. What kind of person doesn't even ASK where 20 percent annual returns come from? They didn't ask because they didn't care that someone else had to be raped in order to insure their "income" - somewhat akin to the welfare mentality, only writ large.

ARgh...

[Marlin]

I agree..

Good rant 8.75/10

[theGinsue]

I'll chime in as another in full agreement with your "rant". Anyone I would do "business" of the nature you mentioned with would either be a friend or someone from this site. I consider the folks here to be friends as well and would never ever consider trying to make such a turnaround profit on any of you - we're like a family...aren't we?!

[sniper_tim]

i would have give them to you!

[68Charger]

put it into acquiring manufacturing capacity and MAKING barrels, trunnion block and the miscellaneous small parts that make up an AK type rifle .

I apparently agree with this.. since I bought a milll (ok it's a Chinese Harbor freight mill, and it needs tooling, but it'll still a mill)... currently lack the capital for a lathe...
been interested in things seen at:
www.cncguns.com (http://www.cncguns.com)
www.homegunsmith.com (http://www.homegunsmith.com)

without an FFL, I lack the licensing to work on other people's stuff, or reselling anything I work on at this point- but got to learn somehow... even if it's just cutting metal to get a feel for it... I have an engineering background, just need hands on experience and/or training... but in my gut, I'd rather build something myself, rather than just go to a store & buy it...
just a hobby, along with building/fixing cars/bikes, etc..

[theGinsue]

i would have give them to you!

Okay! [Tooth]

[Dr_Fwd]

i would have give them to you!

+1 on that!

[Dr_Fwd]

I'll chime in as another in full agreement with your "rant". Anyone I would do "business" of the nature you mentioned with would either be a friend or someone from this site. I consider the folks here to be friends as well and would never ever consider trying to make such a turnaround profit on any of you - we're like a family...aren't we?!

Yes we are.[Beer]

[RYAN50BMG]

Welcome to the world of full-auto. It's been that way for two decades.

[GunTroll]

"except that guns are not about capitalism, or hunting, or even self-defense. The overriding reason to have our fellow citizens armed is to insure the honesty of our government.'' Wrong! They are for all to do with what they want biding it is legal until your hand is forced. I own gus that are in my opinion only for hunting and that makes them "about hunting". I also disagree with some of your statements about capitalising on firearms. Not all points but some. It is my understanding that i.e my gun isn't the only one out there and you can take your business elsewhere when the price isn't right. I know gun shops all over this city that don't budge on prices. I don't go off on a rant to tell them they are out of line for not cutting me a deal. With all the hoops one has to go through to start/own/maintain a business I feal the right is there's to charge what they see fit. And if talking about person to person (non FFL) laugh and move out if the price isn't right. Personal property can be sold to whatever value is put upon it by the owner.
And to agree with some points... if you hook someone up and they don't return the favor I wouldn't call on that person any longer.
My 2 cents

[ldmaster]

"except that guns are not about capitalism, or hunting, or even self-defense. The overriding reason to have our fellow citizens armed is to insure the honesty of our government.'' Wrong! <==== guntroll statement about the preceeding statement.

Well, it's nice to see that you disagree with the majority of the signers of the constitution. Perhaps they didn't have your insight?

And I can, and do, call shops on price gouging - it is perfectly within my rights to do so. Then I buy elsehwhere. When the shops closes and the owner whines about gun owners not supporting them, I have ZERO sympathy. Dave's guns closed because Dave Anvers overextended himself in a couple of different ways, not because he couldn't make a profit. Rob Burke got tired of it. Some gun shops were ill-conceived ideas in the first place, and so went under.

Do you remember when the twin towers fell? Remember the Starbuck's manager that CHARGED for bottles of water to give to rescuers and victims? Oh - well - clearly you'd be next to them opening up your own bottled water stand, if you could have anticipated the OPPORTUNITY it presented.

[68Charger]

"Everything is permissible"- but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible"- but not everything is constructive. 1st Corinthians 10:23

[GunTroll]

"except that guns are not about capitalism, or hunting, or even self-defense. The overriding reason to have our fellow citizens armed is to insure the honesty of our government.'' Wrong! <==== guntroll statement about the preceeding statement.

Well, it's nice to see that you disagree with the majority of the signers of the constitution. Perhaps they didn't have your insight?

And I can, and do, call shops on price gouging - it is perfectly within my rights to do so. Then I buy elsehwhere. When the shops closes and the owner whines about gun owners not supporting them, I have ZERO sympathy. Dave's guns closed because Dave Anvers overextended himself in a couple of different ways, not because he couldn't make a profit. Rob Burke got tired of it. Some gun shops were ill-conceived ideas in the first place, and so went under.

Do you remember when the twin towers fell? Remember the Starbuck's manager that CHARGED for bottles of water to give to rescuers and victims? Oh - well - clearly you'd be next to them opening up your own bottled water stand, if you could have anticipated the OPPORTUNITY it presented.

I agree with you in ways as I said.But hunting was around before our founding fathers drafted up th constitution. Firearms are tools. Nothing more. A tool has many uses. Self defense,food provider,etc. That is what my statement meant. Sorry for the confusion. And as for the bottle selling statement, F.Off! I joined the Army shortly after 911 at the age of 25 yrs old. Knowing what all comes with enlistment in time of war. You statement is out of line. You can't attack someone personally for there coments. Maybe attack what comment was made but not the person. Grow up! Your pretty big sitting behind your computer! We are a nation of many, and in that many there are many ideas and or beleifs. I have mine and you have yours. BE civial.
On the gun shops...call them out. I don't but go ahead. I choose to take the high road and keep my mouth shut. You choose to confront. Both have the same effect...no sale. So we are close in agreement there.
Remember its not the firearms seller to completely blame. Its the buyer! If no one would buy these over priced piles then the price would go down. No one is forcing anyone to purchase anything.

[68Charger]

my motivation for buying a mill is partially because I enjoy working with my hands, and building something from raw materials... and there are many non-firearm related uses for it as well..

but the other motivation is that when some items inflated, I'd rather make it than pay the premium... so I refuse to help drive up the cost... I do this by not paying more than I'm willing to..

an example is 10 round magazines for a Saiga-12 shotgun...
they're composite mags, not much different than PMags, just the application isn't as wide-spread... so the going rate for Saiga-12 mags is $50 and up... people trying to sell them on gunbroker for $70 each! Many don't want to pay over $20 for a PMag (and I can't blame them).. but even Taiwanese 5-rounders for the Saiga-12 are $20 & up...
I'd rather try to build some from sheet metal, or mold some using fiberglass techniques (maybe Kevlar fabric), then pay those prices...

I also agree with Guntroll's statement that firearms are tools...
the question is, tools for what purpose?
they can be tools for hunting, self-defense, protection, enslavement, opression, intimidation, liberation...

by ensuring that citizens are guaranteed the right to keep tools, the founding fathers intended achieve a balance of power (rather than the gov't having all the power, history has revealed it time and time again)

[ldmaster]

So, you're going to swear at me, TELL me to be civil, then tell me I'm a jerk?

Son, I'm not your wife you can intimidate into submission and threaten. I get the feeling this is your normal mode of operation though, coupled with your lack of civility in the first place.

Hunting, etc... WAS around long before the revolutionary war. What wasn't around was a codified list of basic freedoms and rights. The 2nd amendment is not about hunting, it's stated outright in the federalist papers and in several other documents of the time. The preservation of the 2nd amendment is vital for each and every citizen, pricing a 100 dollat gun near a 1000 dollars simply for the sake of a buck, keeps a citizen of modest means from being able to de-facto exercise that right.

Quit acting like a punk, btw. Not that I expect you will, you probably don't even know that you're being one.

[GunTroll]

All I can say is WOW! My mistake for even posting in your thread. Excuse me for even trying to have an opinion. Sorry about all confusion and thanks for making it clear to me and everyone else who is out of line. I foresee this thread getting way out of line and being closed. You my FATHER, are the bigger man for sure and now all can see. You sound a bit like a closet comy who won't have anything to do with freedom of expresion/opinion. KEEP the 2nd alive for sure but don't forget the other admendments.

[GunTroll]

My PM sent to Idlmaster....
You should not go on the offensive against me. You aren't far off of the point. And I do agree with most statements that you made as I said in my post in your thread. You don't know where I stand on , on anything and should not make accusations without knowing me. What you made are assumptions and they aren't grounded. I understand your frustration and agree(again as I said) with some of your opinions. I didn't feel the need to point out the ones I agree with and perhaps should have so I wouldn't bear the brunt of your lack of tolerating of other opinions. Your views aren't the only out there and when you post opinions in a public forum you should expect and possible encourage opposite points of view. This is America by the way

His response.....
First was the "Wrong!" statement followed by an incoherent sentence about doing things legally. Then this PM,(mine above) which is condescending to the extreme.

NO, I don't know you - and we may not be far apart in our views. But you're not going to make a public statement about me personally, and avoid a rebuke.

End of PM's

What public statement do you speak that is directed personnel against you and how did I avoid a rebuke? I believe all personal statement directed at anyone personnel came from you first and a lot harsher. Even bringing in family members. I fell this is way out of line and childish on both of our parts. I'll publicly apologize for my comments......and you?

[ldmaster]

It's hard enough deciphering your posts, but posting private PM's? In a private message you apologize, then post this here?

Guntroll, this post was never about how smart you want us to think you are, it was about a trend in the gun culture and a re-statement of my personal beliefs about gun ownership.

You attack where there was no offense, you use profane language as if you had a right to, you have only a tenuous grasp of the meaning of the words and sentences you use - then you demonstrate ill-manners in each post since.

Again, can you expect to post something publicly and NOT receive a rebuke?

[Red_Chili]

Geez, I'm away from the site for a while and come back to THIS?
[Help]

[colojoe]

i did one firearms transaction with LDMASTER and found him to be a standup guy. people say things on boards that dont sound right through the typing.

[GunTroll]

Sorry to all but Idmaster. My beef with him is firm. Sorry to stain the forum with my post.

[GhostRider]

Guys, guys, guys!!! back up breath, Idmaster I had a very enjoyable conversation with you the other day and you gave me a lot of need info, even though we did not do business I have nothing but the highest regards for you and GunTroll I have agreed with almost all of your posts in the past. You always bring to this post a valuable and much appreciated opinion. But this is way out of hand guys. We don't need to be going to any club shoots and having to worry about who is showing up with bad attitudes and guns. This also does nothing for our reputaion with any visiters to the forum. You both had good points in the first of this post, let try to keep this to constructive disagreements.

[theGinsue]

I ask that the moderators please lock this thread and remove the thread "Anyone else sick of turds" as the hostility and inappropriate use of language does not have value added to this Forum. What is going on here is nothing more than cyber road rage.

Guntroll and Idmaster : PLEASE step back, fume off-line, take a deap breath and return to the Forums showing respect for yourselves and all other members of this site. Up until this conflict started, I have enjoyed reading the posts, comments, and opinions of each of you. PLEASE don't tarnish this. I know that both of you are better than that.

[GhostRider]

I second his asking of the mods and as well with the other post of "anyone sick of turds" it needs to go as well

[Sixgun]

[ROFL1][ROFL2][ROFL3][LOL]Thanks, I love a good fight.

[Marlin]

I agree,, ldmaster, GunTroll, settle it through pm's, DON'T bring it back on the board.....

Hopefully You both can get it settled...