223 subsonic update

[Great-Kazoo]

Ran 10 of the SS 223's sat. Up side is they work, downside, wind out east was howling more than my ex after i stopped alimony;)
Anyway. they look like 1-150 yd plinkers, extremely quiet w/out a suppressor DEFINITELY an extremely low POI. We were out, hoping pd's would pop up , between the 40-50 mph wind and cloudy day, no luck.

I took kellytte's advice , used a tighter crimp, however my "tight" crimp was one turn more than normal for cannelured 55's. SO i'll readjust crimp, up the powder then to range, to see what true POI is vs a standard 55gr load.

My start load is 2.7gr Titegroup, 55gr FMJ-BT with cannelure, hornady, 2.20 OAL . Since this is a test, i felt start load small batch would determine if i wanted to use the ladder test. . No sense working up loads if there was no solid distance and targets to shoot.
I used my MVP 20" bolt action for testing.
The sub's will not cycle a semi so why bother? That's what my suppressors are for;) Then again why not do some single shot AR goodness? oh well next time.

The load range for Sub 223 using TG is 2.7 - 3.1
I'll do 2.9 & 3.0 loads to see difference. Since 3.0 is shy of MAX load, i'm going to keep crimp same as ones i previously loaded, then a tighter crimp on the 2.9 load.

[spleify]

Thanks for the follow up I have been interested in some of these loads for a while now. Please let us know the future results

[Tim K]

Good report. I was going to fool with the same thing this weekend but ran out of weekend.

I'm surprised you started on the low side. I've heard many guys express concern over sticking a bullet in the barrel, so they work a load down to subsonic instead of up.

Did you chrony your fist load? Any thoughts of using a heavier bullet? I was thinking 77's or even heavier, though mine will be in an AR and so will be single fed.

[Great-Kazoo]

Good report. I was going to fool with the same thing this weekend but ran out of weekend.

I'm surprised you started on the low side. I've heard many guys express concern over sticking a bullet in the barrel, so they work a load down to subsonic instead of up.

Did you chrony your fist load? Any thoughts of using a heavier bullet? I was thinking 77's or even heavier, though mine will be in an AR and so will be single fed.

Don't have any data for heavier than 55 FMJ. Not really concerned about sticking bbl, @ approx 1K FPS did not feel bullet stick would be an issue. I shoot Colibri (red box) 22 (primer only) out of a 16" 22 w/out bullet stick.

I never start high end for anything, Worse case scenario, i use a wooden dowel to remove bullet, pull start loads, rework higher.

No chrony, we were out east doing a PD shoot. Wind, temp, clouds kept pd's away but massive shooting did happen. Once i load my ladder i will range and chrony.

Since it's a first setting the chrono up, how far from muzzle do you place it?

[Tim K]

There's no hard and fast rule, but 10' is common. Your ballistic software should allow you to tell it how far away you put it, so it doesn't really matter. I've had rifles with lots of muzzle blast cause problems with chrony's placed close, but that's obviously not the case for you!

[ray1970]

You should try some Trail Boss powder. Let me know how it works.

[Great-Kazoo]

You should try some Trail Boss powder. Let me know how it works.


I could, but the specs call for TG which I happen to have a few pounds of. I'm old school, prefer to work with known data, than blaze New trails. Especially when guns are not cheap to replace, if a load goes bad. Not that I don't mind pushing the envelope, but with the sub load I want to work with confirmed specs.

[ray1970]

Supposedly you can just fill the case full of Trail Boss and not have any pressure issues. Doesn't even seen to matter what cartridge. .308, .223, 30-30, whatever.

[Great-Kazoo]

Supposedly you can just fill the case full of Trail Boss and not have any pressure issues. Doesn't even seen to matter what cartridge. .308, .223, 30-30, whatever.

They cut that shit with sawdust?
http://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/Trail%20Boss%20Reduced%20Loads%20R&P.pdf

[ray1970]

They cut that shit with sawdust?

Yeah, I think so.

I've used it for cowboy loads. It's kind of "fluffy". Looks kind of like Cheerios. Has a hole in the middle of each flake.

[cfortune]

Did you lube the bullets at all prior to shooting? I've seen tutorials where people actually put Crisco on their bullets.

Sent from my EVO using Xparent Green Tapatalk 2

[Great-Kazoo]

Did you lube the bullets at all prior to shooting? I've seen tutorials where people actually put Crisco on their bullets.

Sent from my EVO using Xparent Green Tapatalk 2

Fuck no!. Why would i do something that could increase pressure in the bbl as well as be a magnet for grit / dirt.

BTW: How the hell you typing if you're Entertaining yourself in Utah , one handed keyboard acrobatics?

[cfortune]

Yeah, I thought it seemed like a silly idea. Just thought I'd ask.

Sent from my EVO using Xparent Green Tapatalk 2

[spleify]

Here are my findings;

I went out Saturday and tested two batches of SS rounds. I gotta say it was kinda fun to play with.

*ADDED* 14.5" pinned carbine length AR, I had to manually cycle the rifle.

10 rounds

55gr Hornady FMJBT
Mixed Brass
CCI #400 SPP
2.9gr Tite Group
Decibel approx. 97dB
833FPS

10 rounds

55gr Hornady FMJBT
Mixed Brass
CCI #400 SPP
3.1gr Tite Group
Decibel approx. 99dB
FPS Data to follow

*ADDED* On both loads I added .002 more crimp than usual. I usually run my loads with a .244 crimp and these I did .242

I will make some more and do a little more extensive testing and post my findings

[Great-Kazoo]

Here are my findings;

I went out Saturday and tested two batches of SS rounds. I gotta say it was kinda fun to play with.


10 rounds

55gr Hornady FMJBT
Mixed Brass
CCI #400 SPP
2.9gr Tite Group
Decibel approx. 97dB
833FPS

10 rounds

55gr Hornady FMJBT
Mixed Brass
CCI #400 SPP
3.1gr Tite Group
Decibel approx. 99dB
FPS Data to follow

I will make some more and do a little more extensive testing and post my findings

I actually put some on paper BUT zoned out posting a few pictures showing different POI between loads. Maybe tomorrow.

[hatidua]

What's the advantage of shooting subsonic 55gr bullets (.223) over simply shooting subsonic 40gr bullets (.22LR)?

[Great-Kazoo]

What's the advantage of shooting subsonic 55gr bullets (.223) over simply shooting subsonic 40gr bullets (.22LR)?

I can, there's load data, why not? Would I invest a lot of components into it again, doubt it. However some folks don't own suppressors, have the money to invest, or care to. It's one of those, I'm bored, let's load something different, things.
Surely you've had one of those, hmmmm wonder how this load will perform, moments.

[JM Ver. 2.0]

I can, there's load data, why not? Would I invest a lot of components into it again, doubt it. However some folks don't own suppressors, have the money to invest, or care to. It's one of those, I'm bored, let's load something different, things.
Surely you've had one of those, hmmmm wonder how this load will perform, moments.

I have a 50gr zmax sitting over about 28gr of TAC that I wanna shoot. Need a chrono though.

Sent from my teepee using smoke signals.

[Tim K]

What's the advantage of shooting subsonic 55gr bullets (.223) over simply shooting subsonic 40gr bullets (.22LR)?

If you have a can, you can have an extremely quiet load for times when you don't want to make a lot of noise but you still want to shoot your centerfire rifle. I'll be trying this exact thing with Trailboss for .223 and .260. It will allow me to introduce wife and daughter to centerfire rifles in a totally unintimidating way.

[spleify]

I can, there's load data, why not? Would I invest a lot of components into it again, doubt it. However some folks don't own suppressors, have the money to invest, or care to. It's one of those, I'm bored, let's load something different, things.
Surely you've had one of those, hmmmm wonder how this load will perform, moments.

Yep, this^^



It will allow me to introduce wife and daughter to centerfire rifles in a totally unintimidating way.

..and this^^

[Great-Kazoo]

I have a 50gr zmax sitting over about 28gr of TAC that I wanna shoot. Need a chrono though.

Sent from my teepee using smoke signals.

Come on up. week days are better at my range. Or we can hit pawnee

[hatidua]

I can, there's load data, why not?

I didn't have a reason to "why not", hence the reason I put forth the question: I was simply curious. Now I've been well informed on the matter, thanks.

[Great-Kazoo]

So having run a few subs (no chrono) just seeing where POI was vs standard load. The results are [no surprise] way different.

Rifle - Mosberg MVP 20" med contour 1/2 fluted bbl. Optic - Bushnell 6500 elite

yardage- 50 for sight in, 49* no wind. 5 rds fired per group. I'm hoping with more range time to improve trigger control and sight picture.

load data - 223 subs. hornady 55gr BTFMJ LC brass, 3gr Titegroup win SPP. 2.20 OAL basic crimp. kelly suggested a tight crimp. However i wanted to see what basic crimp was doing.

load data - 223 standard Both used AA2230 win SPP, hornady's 55gr BTFMJ 24.5grs & 55gr BT-JSP 2.20 OAL 22.5 / 23 gr of 2230

loose groups way off center that are circled / arrow are the sub POI.

center groups are both JSP & FMJ's . The lower right is sub load, which i was aiming for the top right. Bottom arrow was for center target

With a basic crimp the subs shot 6" low on average. Going to road test some tight crimped subs, this weekend (maybe)

http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u129/51jim/gun%20pic%20place/100_1423_zps5f2bf7c7.jpg

comparison of 22.5gr 2230 to ^23 gr 2230 JSP's ^ on left targets. the 22.5 gr load has been consistent every range trip.

http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u129/51jim/gun%20pic%20place/100_1422_zpsc3a68650.jpg

http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u129/51jim/gun%20pic%20place/100_1421_zpsad9d89b1.jpg

[spleify]

Thanks for the update Jim. I will try and build some more here at some point and test some more with my Savage bolt gun next time.

I edited my original review to add some more info that I originally did not provide. I didnt say that I was running a 14.5" pinned carbine length AR and yes I had to hand cycle the rifle to extract the spent cartridge. The bolt would barely moved on recoil. And as Jim was talking about I did add a little more crimp(.002) than usual just to see how they ran. I will make a batch of each next time and test both.

[Daniel_187]

I saw a video of someone opening up the flash hole is this needed and using a magnum primer? am thinking of doing a sub sonic .308 load.

[Great-Kazoo]

I saw a video of someone opening up the flash hole is this needed and using a magnum primer? am thinking of doing a sub sonic .308 load.

Opening up the flash hole and using magnum primers make such a small difference, it's not worth it. Honestly, for the ballistics and distance, i'd use a 22mag.