Are you counting on that city, state, fed pension?

[davsel]

Better think again.

Unfortunately, my wife is counting on a city gov pension, and we're not sure if she should take the cash payout while she can, or take the monthly payments - as long as they last.
It took a while to convince her that her pension will not pay out forever.

The CSPD and PERA still push the city for higher pay and benefits.

This is not difficult math.

Coming to a city and state near you:
From: http://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=225550

From The "Duh" File - Detroit Pensions

This sort of story illustrates the utter and complete crap that our media puts out. (http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/story/23824525/a-face-to-detroits-bankrupt?fb_action_ids=10201063420487887&fb_action_types=og.recommends&fb_ref=.UnFJSZFcK_g.like&fb_source=other_multiline&action_object_map={%2210201063420487887%22%3A23749 5529748843}&action_type_map={%2210201063420487887%22%3A%22og.r ecommends%22}&action_ref_map={%2210201063420487887%22%3A%22.UnFJ SZFcK_g.like%22})


"The benefits that we got, they weren't given to us. They were earned. These guys worked their asses off for said 30, 40 years, sacrificing life and ... health. The least they could do is have some sort of security after they're gone, after the fires are out."


You forgot the rest of the story.

For 30, 40 years you threatened and extorted the people of Detroit. You lobbied, petitioned and voted for that which you either knew or should have known was impossible to provide. You threatened to not put out fires if you didn't get these promises in the form of pensions and medical benefits, effectively putting a gun to the head of everyone in the city.

You forgot that irrespective of how much pressure you applied and how loudly you screamed, whether you threatened not to extinguish fires and go on strike or not and no matter how many signs you waved and sob stories you told to the electorate, it is not possible to make something that can't happen occur.

You can't jump over a building and a contract to do so is void and unenforceable because you contracted to do an impossible thing.
The blame for this lies both with you and with city management. The city made a promise it couldn't keep but you demanded the promises that you or your union bosses knew were impossible, and if you didn't know it was only because you willfully and intentionally ignored fifth grade arithmetic.

If you voluntarily place a gun in your own mouth and pull the trigger absent a malfunction you are going to blow your brains out. That is a certainty.

Likewise it is a certainty that two exponential growth functions, where one rate of growth is higher than the other, will inevitably run away from one another. When the higher-growth rate is an "obligation" and the lower is "revenue"bankruptcy is inevitable.

When you "contract" to do such a thing it is an utter certainty that if you live long enough you will not get paid in full and you might not get anything.

You thus contracted with someone to do an impossible thing and you either knew it was impossible or willfully ignored the fact that it was, when all you needed to understand to know that in advance was to have been awake during your fifth grade math class.

The same situation, incidentally, applies to Medicare -- that is, Senior Citizen medical promises. The federal promises alone are north of $200 trillion, not the $17 trillion that we "recognize."

This very same financial fact also applies to virtually all state and local pension and in-retirement medical plans, along with most private pensions, for the exact same reason.

I think it sucks that you're not going to get your allegedly-earned "benefits" but the money to pay those benefits never existed and was never going to.

This is exactly identical to knowing you make $27,000 a year, spending $37,000 a year, having $170,000 on the credit card and then whining that it's "unfair" when the card company won't let you run up another 10 large.

This, incidentally, is our Federal Government right here, right now, today -- just add the zeros to the above and you get our tax revenue, our spending, and our federal debt.

We, as Americans, must stop living lies right now because it is only through facing the truth that we can plan for the fact that we lied to ourselves and demanded that others lie to us, and thus that which is impossible is not going to happen.

Or we can keep doing what we've been doing and you, like this gentleman, can then claim to be "surprised" when the inevitable and known in advance occurs.

[sellersm]

My advice? Based on everything I've been reading, is take it out NOW. Convert it to something with value, NOW.

[jerrymrc]

I can start next year after 34 years. I want to go another 4. Not much in the way of a pension for us .gov federal workers anymore but it is better than nothing. After 37 years with a final high 3 pay of $65K my annual "defined benefit" will be about $24K per year.

Under the new retirement plan that started in 89 SS is part of our retirement system along with a 401K plan.

People like clerks/admin/nurses that did like 25-30 years would only get about $10 in retirement. In my case in looking at all my sources when I retire I hope to be around $60K per year but then I have a total of 15% going into my 401K plan. I put in 10% and have a match of 4% along with an automatic 1%.

I do look at it that if my employer is unable to pay my pension then the USA does not exist as we know it. It is not the giant gravy train many think it is. I have many friends that work for company's that have a much better deal.

[Ronin13]

Most LE agencies in CO are doing away with pensions and going to investment matching for retirement- I've already counted out any pension in my future- and plan to do my own retirement planning. Maybe, if I'm lucky, with the way things are now, I can afford to retire in about 45 years at 75.

[Irving]

My company just recently changed benefits in such a way that many people who were considering retiring within the next 5 years are now retiring NOW. As in before 2014.

[sniper7]

I don't count on any kind of retirement. Even my 401Ks that I have I am scared the government will eventually bankrupt and steal it all.... i wish SS would disappear and I could put that money into my safe.

My wife is on PERA, but I have her starting a 401K. PERA does pretty well from what I have seen and listening to my parents who are retired teachers as well.

[rbeau30]

If.gov is strappd for cash, you have to think about what they would go after.

Pensions... They already borrow from Social Security.\

Once that runs out, think they'd seize 401Ks? Yes. and if they did, what would WE do about it? Nothing. And if you did? You would loose.

Default on pensions? Absolutely! What would those folks do about it? Nothing. And if you did? You would loose.

IRAs? Those would be next. Again, see above.

Savings accounts? let me see, other countries have already done this. And the subservient subjects did nothing, because they Could Do Nothing.

Then, the currency collapses, effectively making every deposit everywhere, worthless.

[sellersm]

If.gov is strappd for cash, you have to think about what they would go after.

Pensions... They already borrow from Social Security.\

Once that runs out, think they'd seize 401Ks? Yes. and if they did, what would WE do about it? Nothing. And if you did? You would loose.

Default on pensions? Absolutely! What would those folks do about it? Nothing. And if you did? You would loose.

IRAs? Those would be next. Again, see above.

Savings accounts? let me see, other countries have already done this. And the subservient subjects did nothing, because they Could Do Nothing.

Then, the currency collapses, effectively making every deposit everywhere, worthless.

^This. Look around, it's happening in other nations & has happened historically. There's already a lot of talk of it happening soon here. Do the math, the printing press has no limit, there is NO debt ceiling for 3 months, what do you think is going to happen?


Sent from my fat fingers using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)

[sellersm]

Read this & consider: http://www.alt-market.com/articles/1793-international-monetary-fund-recommends-stealing-americans-wealth-now

Capital controls are being discussed quite readily now. Many articles about folks having issues with getting large sums of $$$ out. Many banks now have limits on 'out of country' transfers (just try to move away & expatriate & get your $$$).

[davsel]

Read this & consider: http://www.alt-market.com/articles/1793-international-monetary-fund-recommends-stealing-americans-wealth-now

Capital controls are being discussed quite readily now. Many articles about folks having issues with getting large sums of $$$ out. Many banks now have limits on 'out of country' transfers (just try to move away & expatriate & get your $$$).

It will happen before you know it.

From Page 49 of the report (emphasis mine):

The sharp deterioration of the public finances in
many countries has revived interest in a “capital levy”—
a one-off tax on private wealth—as an exceptional
measure to restore debt sustainability. The appeal is
that such a tax, if it is implemented before avoidance
is possible and there is a belief that it will never be
repeated, does not distort behavior (and may be seen
by some as fair). There have been illustrious supporters,
including Pigou, Ricardo, Schumpeter, and—until he
changed his mind—Keynes. The conditions for success
are strong, but also need to be weighed against the risks
of the alternatives, which include repudiating public
debt or inflating it away (these, in turn, are a particular
form of wealth tax

There is a surprisingly large amount of experience to
draw on, as such levies were widely adopted in Europe
after World War I and in Germany and Japan after
World War II. Reviewed in Eichengreen (1990), this
experience suggests that more notable than any loss of
credibility was a simple failure to achieve debt reduction,
largely because the delay in introduction gave space for
extensive avoidance and capital flight - in turn spurring inflation.

The tax rates needed to bring down public debt to precrisis
levels, moreover, are sizable: reducing debt ratioos to end-2007
levels would require (for sample of 15 euro area countries) a
tax rate of about 10 percent on households with positive net wealth.

[TFOGGER]

I don't count on any kind of retirement. Even my 401Ks that I have I am scared the government will eventually bankrupt and steal it all.... i wish SS would disappear and I could put that money into my safe.

My wife is on PERA, but I have her starting a 401K. PERA does pretty well from what I have seen and listening to my parents who are retired teachers as well.

My wife is a PERA member as well. She has both a 401k and a 457 account. PERA is very close to being insolvent as well.

[davsel]

Looks like Colorado came in at #38 (63.25% funded) out of the 50 states - as far as having their pensions funded.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-11-07/if-you-live-illinois-retire-now-or-move-wisconsin

[mpatch]

I can start next year after 34 years. I want to go another 4. Not much in the way of a pension for us .gov federal workers anymore but it is better than nothing. After 37 years with a final high 3 pay of $65K my annual "defined benefit" will be about $24K per year.

snip

So you retire at 35 years at roughly 60 then live for another 20-30 years getting 24k every year. Any math guys that can tell me how much that would equal in a traditional retirement account?

[jerrymrc]

So you retire at 35 years at roughly 60 then live for another 20-30 years getting 24k every year. Any math guys that can tell me how much that would equal in a traditional retirement account?

60 Years old will be right at 38 years of federal service. Most of the larger company's that I could work for have about the same retirement plan. in addition I might do it next year just for the fact that in my field working for the fed I am about 30-40K short on income and almost no OT to be had. I got about 24hrs last year.

I know it may seem like a lot but not really. Had I known then what I know now I would have gone to GE or Philips. I lost two of my good techs this year because after talking a hard look they left for more $$$. My one guy started at what I am making now.

$250K in an IRA should provide about $24K a year. I am close to that in mine. Current FERS retirement has 3 parts. The defined benefit, 401K plan and SS. I currently put $630 per month into my 401K with a match of $150. I hope that by living within my means for the first 60 years of my life that I can enjoy the last 20-30 but that was a choice I made many years ago.

I know that is not where you wanted to go with this but that is where I took it. [Flower]

[davsel]

And so it begins.

From: http://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=226468

Got A Pension? Better Pay Attention

http://market-ticker.org/smilies-local/toldyaso.gif
Detroit's bankruptcy has been ruled legal. The pensions are not protected, as federal law trumps state when it comes to bankruptcy.
Incidentally, this is explicitly in The Constitution, so suck it liberals. (http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/constitution_transcript.html)
Section. 8.
The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
To borrow Money on the credit of the United States;
To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;
To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;

Your state constitution is meaningless when someone comes into Federal bankruptcy court, because Bankruptcy is a delegated power.
This isn't "judicial activism", it's black-letter law.
I've warned people for the last several years -- since The Ticker began, in fact, that these bogus pension and "benefit" packages that were negotiated at gunpoint and by fraud with state and local governments are unenforceable irrespective of so-called constitutional protections.
They should be unenforceable because there was no true adversarial process and can't be so long as the people negotiating for the wages and benefits can elect the people on the other side of the table, and they both can and do.
But they are unenforceable because when push comes to shove bankruptcy is a federal matter and as such the so-called protections are worthless as the federal bankruptcy code does not recognize any such attempt to give priority to these claims.
They are in fact just a debt -- like any other debt.
Those of you who think you can simply crank up taxes on people (http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2013-11-29/site/ct-illinois-pension-reform-financia-ruin-1129-20131129_1_tax-increase-state-income-tax-bill), such as many are gambling on in Chicago, are delusional. Citidel's Kenneth Griffin correctly points out that what Illinois is doing is outrageously stupid; not only will producers leave (they have already begun to do so -- I left!) but in addition when push comes to shove the bankruptcy courts will not protect these pensions and alleged "benefits."
Good luck folks.

[spqrzilla]

Note that the bankruptcy court is not going to approve a plan that just zeros out the pensions. We've not seen any particular plans proposed to the bankruptcy court on Detroit's filing yet.

[rbeau30]

This impending financial crisis is a great stage to be set for the use of "Emergency Powers" to be exercised, don't ya think?

[roberth]

And so it begins.

From: http://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=226468

Got A Pension? Better Pay Attention

http://market-ticker.org/smilies-local/toldyaso.gif
Detroit's bankruptcy has been ruled legal. The pensions are not protected, as federal law trumps state when it comes to bankruptcy.
Incidentally, this is explicitly in The Constitution, so suck it liberals. (http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/constitution_transcript.html)
Section. 8.
The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
To borrow Money on the credit of the United States;
To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;
To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;

Your state constitution is meaningless when someone comes into Federal bankruptcy court, because Bankruptcy is a delegated power.
This isn't "judicial activism", it's black-letter law.
I've warned people for the last several years -- since The Ticker began, in fact, that these bogus pension and "benefit" packages that were negotiated at gunpoint and by fraud with state and local governments are unenforceable irrespective of so-called constitutional protections.
They should be unenforceable because there was no true adversarial process and can't be so long as the people negotiating for the wages and benefits can elect the people on the other side of the table, and they both can and do.
But they are unenforceable because when push comes to shove bankruptcy is a federal matter and as such the so-called protections are worthless as the federal bankruptcy code does not recognize any such attempt to give priority to these claims.
They are in fact just a debt -- like any other debt.
Those of you who think you can simply crank up taxes on people (http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2013-11-29/site/ct-illinois-pension-reform-financia-ruin-1129-20131129_1_tax-increase-state-income-tax-bill), such as many are gambling on in Chicago, are delusional. Citidel's Kenneth Griffin correctly points out that what Illinois is doing is outrageously stupid; not only will producers leave (they have already begun to do so -- I left!) but in addition when push comes to shove the bankruptcy courts will not protect these pensions and alleged "benefits."
Good luck folks.




Federal law trumps state law. Are people starting to understand just a little bit about why we don't want an all encompassing federal government?

Watch what happens in Detroit, it will be played out in every city and state that is currently underwater and thinking about bankruptcy.

[spqrzilla]

Detroit is not the first city in bankruptcy. Just the largest ... to date.

[Cujo0920]

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-12-03/detroit-bankruptcy-judge-rules-allow-pension-cuts

The dominoes should start falling fast and furious as the generation-long Democrat votes-for-payola scheme implodes under the weight of its own fraud and artifice. Looks like Detroit pensioners - many or most of whom turned a blind eye to the crooked urban Democrats running the city into the ground in collusion with the Wall Street grifters - are getting their just desserts: 16 cents on the dollar, to be further debased by Zimbabwe Ben's/Old Yellen's Federal Reserve printing press. To any police or firefighters reading this: learn something.

[lowbeyond]

Pera, and other states pensions. Well good luck with that.

You won't get it.

Fed pensions? What happens the next time they borrow from it and they find no one wants to buy tbills?

You won't get it

401k/403b/ira Yea whatever. That's a few pages in the tax code, a tax code that changes every year.

They take those first. Oh it probably won't be an outright confiscation. More likely it's SSv2. You are just rolled into it, you get govt bonds. Those that don't want to convert have to pay a fine/tax equal to allthe deferred tax plus and administrative fee of whatever. You can avoid the tax if you just go into the new SSv2 for the greater good.

You think that can't happen? Uh huh . it's tax law.

Ps don't look for the next bailout it's gonna be a bail in for the banks. Your deposits, which are basically unsecured loans to the bank, will be used to make them whole

Fdic? All those little signs and 40-50 billion bucks won't backstop anything close to the trillions in deposits

Can happen here, we are a nation of laws! Lol

The government would never confiscate your gold. Oh wait they did

Would never spy on every American, or wait they did

Would never take your hose and give it to a richer land developer in the hopes it may generate more taxes. Oh wait they already did

The list goes on and on.

[BPTactical]

Well your a warm glow on a frigid night.....





I am a PERA member and yes, it worries me.

[lowbeyond]

Sorry.

Just remember what is mathematically impossible won't happen.

Now of course you may get your money, but when a loaf of bread is 30 but, but the official govt says inflation is, and as been for the past x years is 0001%, does it matter?

Yea prolly not

Remember all the plans be it pensions , social security whatever, it's just promises.

Plan accordingly

[spqrzilla]

The "16 cents on the dollar" comment was taken out of context. There is no restructuring plan before the bankruptcy court at present.

[hatidua]

I recall hearing on the radio that Detroit's bankruptcy had been ruled legal while driving the other day. The thing that immediately crossed my mind was that other debt-laden cities must be salivating at the prospects for how this could clear the way for them to do something similar.