View Full Version : Something anybody with an AR pistol may want
You really have to see this http://www.sigsauer.com/SigStore/sb15-pistol-stabilizing-brace-552.aspx
I was frankly amazed that it made it by ATF, but suddenly an AR pistol seems like a thing I might want
kidicarus13
11-04-2013, 16:29
This was thought up many years ago.35987
blacklabel
11-04-2013, 16:34
It's a novel idea until the ATF goes back and declares it unlawful. I'm in the planning stages of a pistol build but it this won't be part of it.
Should probably be in the "Funny Videos" thread.
Affords you the option of two shooting positions: Unsighted from the hip, or sighted with arm fully outstretched and no way to use support hand.
Ridiculous POS.
SuperiorDG
11-04-2013, 17:11
Should probably be in the "Funny Videos" thread.
Affords you the option of two shooting positions: Unsighted from the hip, or sighted with arm fully outstretched and no way to use support hand.
Ridiculous POS.
Yea, if you are going to stick your arm straight out you are better off with a stock and a 16" barrel or they way I roll, a 14.5 with a pinned break.
blacklabel
11-04-2013, 17:14
Affords you the option of two shooting positions: Unsighted from the hip, or sighted with arm fully outstretched and no way to use support hand.
You forgot about the third option.
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/IMG_1505.jpg
Weak hand transition around cover in a time intensive scenario must be fun.
SuperiorDG
11-04-2013, 17:28
You forgot about the third option.
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/IMG_1505.jpg
That forward grip is also FFA non-compliant without a stamp
blacklabel
11-04-2013, 17:31
That forward grip is also FFA non-compliant without a stamp
True. Thank God it's not me.
SideShow Bob
11-04-2013, 17:48
That forward grip is also FFA non-compliant without a stamp
FFA ? Future Farmers of America ?
Colorado Osprey
11-04-2013, 18:18
FFA Federal Firearms Act
I'm sure it works great...until you have a malfunction, have to lock the bolt to the rear, have to change hands, transition to a secondary weapon, or take a piss...
I saw this guys movie, he actually put it on a SBR, so technically the fore-grip is not a problem.
I'm sure it works great...until you have a malfunction, have to lock the bolt to the rear, have to change hands, transition to a secondary weapon, or take a piss...
That's what I thought. Works great until you need to do anything other than shoot with your arm straight out.
If they sold this on Amazon, I'd fully expect the bottom to read:
Customers who purchased this product, also purchased
http://cdn2.bigcommerce.com/server1600/0f59d/products/12789/images/18390/Fox_Airsoft_Forward_Pistol_Mounting_System__66498. 1374700253.1280.1280.jpg
+
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51x9FB0sMNL._SY300_.jpg
Yeah, nobody buy them, they don't work at all, nothing to see here, move along. [Sarcasm2]
I did find this guys video at least amusing.
http://youtu.be/3iS2N_PrIQU
HoneyBadger
11-11-2013, 08:25
I can't think of a single situation where this might actually offer an advantage.
From the interweb surfing I've done, these seem to be somewhat popular in states that do not allow SBR's - it's gives them a close approximation of the "look".
AKA-Spook
01-23-2014, 07:23
I'll reserve saying one way or the other till I've used one, but ,having shot a lot of AR pistols, I like the premise. Easy to see one of these finding its way onto my AR-45.
I've run several drills with mine, (in .300BO) against an SBR set-up the same way...frankly, glad I did not waste $200 on a stamp, and the owner of the SBR has an upside-down smile when we run drills. For those who like to complain about everything, move on. For those who want the compactness of an SBR/PDW system without $200 in worthless tax, get the SIG cuff.
ChunkyMonkey
01-23-2014, 10:53
I've run several drills with mine, (in .300BO) against an SBR set-up the same way...frankly, glad I did not waste $200 on a stamp, and the owner of the SBR has an upside-down smile when we run drills. For those who like to complain about everything, move on. For those who want the compactness of an SBR/PDW system without $200 in worthless tax, get the SIG cuff.
+1
Just for this post, if you decided to carry the sb15 and sb47 on your site, I'll buy them from you. I need MOAR!!! ;)
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ChunkyMonkey
01-23-2014, 12:19
39755
From last week
JM Ver. 2.0
01-23-2014, 13:53
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/01/24/u5a9e2u2.jpg
I gots me one....
Sent from my teepee using smoke signals.
Great-Kazoo
01-23-2014, 16:21
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/01/24/u5a9e2u2.jpg
I gots me one....
Sent from my teepee using smoke signals.
ME too. Only i cracked off with the $200. That's one thing the ATF shouldn't reverse them self on any time soon.
http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u129/51jim/100_0743_zps3cf8fd21.jpg
that contraption just reminds me of this (at least she can clear malfunctions):
http://thoughtcafe.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/woman-machine-gun-in-leg.jpg
funkymonkey1111
04-23-2014, 17:51
Pretty interesting video on the SB15 from military arms channel (and some pretty moronic comments in this thread)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_825346007&feature=i v&list=UUZ-qxagOkAmCEP-Tu6YliUQ&src_vid=W7CKWU7CQtA&v=qNMLO18kl98
kidicarus13
04-23-2014, 18:05
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/04/24/ymu7u6u4.jpg
Hmmmm... maybe I should.
I've run several drills with mine, (in .300BO) against an SBR set-up the same way...frankly, glad I did not waste $200 on a stamp, and the owner of the SBR has an upside-down smile when we run drills. For those who like to complain about everything, move on. For those who want the compactness of an SBR/PDW system without $200 in worthless tax, get the SIG cuff.
Yeah. Makes sense. $165 plus shipping and not being able to use that hand is MUCH better than $200 and you don't have to change out your current stock or fix any stoppages/scratch your balls. [sarcasm] It's nothing more than an overpriced gimmick. I'm sure Billy Mays would be selling it with a slap chop at 3 am if he was still around...
Just saying "I ran some drills" is not really a quantitative measurement, especially when if it was you (a fairly accomplished competitive shooter) against a friend (unknown experience). You could have been shooting against Stevie Wonder for all we know. If you want to run drills with it against an SBR, how about these, or any drill requiring the support side:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TqLnBd1udM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w69N5gsxvpM
How about bringing it to my village and we'll run some force on force with UTMs using it. Then we'll see how you like it in a gun fight...
blacklabel
04-23-2014, 19:28
Why can't he use that hand again?
It straps the AR to your forearm.
Did you watch the video posted two posts above yours? Or are you a wonderful actor?
EDIT: I'd like to try that second drill. Is that at 10 yards?
blacklabel
04-23-2014, 20:03
It is supposed to straps the AR to your forearm.
I fixed that for you.
Did you watch the video posted two posts above yours?
Yes. The video is advocating the use other than what it is intended for.
Or are you a wonderful actor?
Nope. That fact has been well established.
EDIT: I'd like to try that second drill. Is that at 10 yards?
Yes
If it is such a wonderful device, then why is no one, other than the you tube idiots, advocating its use? No endorsements from Vickers, Lamb, or anyone. Nothing from Vogel, Taran Butler, or Jerry. Not standard issue, let alone in use, by ANY military unit or gov or local agency. The SEALS haven't even made a movie with it yet... but then again, it does allow you to shoulder a pistol just like you could do before; all for the low price of $165. [more sarcasm]
Great-Kazoo
04-24-2014, 18:13
IMO while it's a nice short cut for pistol shooters. It will soon , again IMO, be rescinded by the atf based on how some shooters are utilizing it now. Which goes to show NEVER use a CC for anything the ATF has given the green light for, that gray area NFA guidelines.
I'm basing it on the MANY arm braces i may or may not have seen, being used in a some what questionable manner. For another $35 you can buy a tax stamp, on a rifle already owned. Then have bert or, smith of your choice, cut and thread to desired length. You're in to it for what, 7-10 months wait and $250-275 out of pocket ?
ChunkyMonkey
04-24-2014, 20:07
I use the sig on my shoulder as short cut not to sbr. The end.
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ChunkyMonkey
04-24-2014, 20:11
If it is such a wonderful device, then why is no one, other than the you tube idiots, advocating its use? No endorsements from Vickers, Lamb, or anyone. Nothing from Vogel, Taran Butler, or Jerry. Not standard issue, let alone in use, by ANY military unit or gov or local agency. The SEALS haven't even made a movie with it yet... but then again, it does allow you to shoulder a pistol just like you could do before; all for the low price of $165. [more sarcasm]
You seem to think that the gun owner market which is full with different folks with different purposes should adhere to the professional line of thought.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Yeah. Makes sense. $165 plus shipping and not being able to use that hand is MUCH better than $200 and you don't have to change out your current stock or fix any stoppages/scratch your balls. [sarcasm] It's nothing more than an overpriced gimmick. I'm sure Billy Mays would be selling it with a slap chop at 3 am if he was still around...
Just saying "I ran some drills" is not really a quantitative measurement, especially when if it was you (a fairly accomplished competitive shooter) against a friend (unknown experience). You could have been shooting against Stevie Wonder for all we know. If you want to run drills with it against an SBR, how about these, or any drill requiring the support side.
I got mine for $115 local. The pistol tube, buffer, spring and SIG cuff cost me $158 total. As compared to just about any M4 collapseable on entry stock, the price is at most $40 more, so I am really $160 ahead of the tax stamp, got it in the time to swipe the credit card and no additional paperwork.
I do not "strap" it to my arm. I use it exactly the way anyone would run an entry length stock, so that argument falls apart as well.
As for the drills, the friend is former military and a current SWAT team member who handles his firearms with exceptional skill. Regardless, we ran the drills and switched weapons and ran then against, several times. There is just no operational benefit of the SBR utilizing in in a CQB role. Prone at 300 yards, yes, the "real" stock performed better and I got better groups.
All in all, the arguments against the SIG brace are just strawman arguments.
If you want to run some drills against me, can do. :)
kidicarus13
04-25-2014, 09:56
$110ea shipped from Joe Bob's if you order 3.
As for the drills, the friend is former military and a current SWAT team member who handles his firearms with exceptional skill. Regardless, we ran the drills and switched weapons and ran then against, several times. There is just no operational benefit of the SBR utilizing in in a CQB role. Prone at 300 yards, yes, the "real" stock performed better and I got better groups.
All in all, the arguments against the SIG brace are just strawman arguments.
If you want to run some drills against me, can do. :)
And what "operational" experience do you base that on? When have you ever made a live entry?
What were the results when you switched weapons???
If you really want to run drills, PM me for details. You wear it as intended and spend a few runs in the village with UTM rounds...
The sig brace has not found a tactical use yet, nor do I think it ever will. It's only benefit is using it improperly for those who can't or wont get a SBR. I'm not stopping anyone from buying it. Simply stating that you'll never see one used in a gunfight...except on the streets of Compton and turned sideways perhaps. Like I said, it's a gimmick.
Coloccw, I obviously have little to nothing to contribute to this conversation, other than that no one is arguing that this is a useful item while strapped onto your wrist. What is the point of pointing that out over and over when no one else is on that path?
Might I suggest the term loophole in place of gimmick?
Mick-Boy
04-25-2014, 10:24
You seem to think that the gun owner market which is full with different folks with different purposes should adhere to the professional line of thought.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
This is an excellent point and one I'm frequently guilty of forgetting. Not every firearm needs be a duty/defensive weapon. Not everyone cares about duty/defensive weapons.
If you've got the money and it works for your purposes, go nuts.
thvigil11
04-25-2014, 10:48
"You seem to think that the gun owner market which is full with different folks with different purposes should adhere to the professional line of thought."
"This is an excellent point and one I'm frequently guilty of forgetting. Not every firearm needs be a duty/defensive weapon. Not everyone cares about duty/defensive weapons.
If you've got the money and it works for your purposes, go nuts."
As an owner of both a SBR and Sig brace. I concur with the others statements. If I'm to deploy and go into professional door kicker mode, I don't think I'd take one of my sig braces with me. I see its utility as a fun range toy and the chance to let a wider range of shooters explore the fun and benefits of barrel options. It also makes owning a pistol ar more enjoyable and enticing in my experience.
As for my collection, not all of my guns are for professional use. (besides the fact that I am no longer in that profession) Sure its fun to perform drills with my 1917 Colt or my Webley Mark VI, but if I am responding to SHTF, Alien Invasion, Zombies, Rabid Girl Scouts, or Evil Monkey takeover, I might opt for a better handgun. That doesn't take away from the fun of drilling with a hundred year old pistol.
Back to the brace though. I don't understand the hatred and attempts I've seen online (not just here, but other forums as well) to throw a wrench in the legal workings. Don't like it, don't buy it is my motto. Personally, I don't care for alot of firearm related accessories (Slide fire for example) Its not for me, I don't own one, I don't plan on owning one, but I it doesn't bother me that others do. If I'm at a range and someone has one, oh well. If it does get to me, I move down a few spaces or go to another range. The problem I see here is that we (shooting enthusiasts) tend to become our own worst enemies. We fight amongst ourselves faster than we tend to united against our true enemies. One thing Liberals have going for them is that they unite together to take us down at every little opportunity.
Sorry for the rant, but seriously.....
[handbags]
And what "operational" experience do you base that on? When have you ever made a live entry?
What were the results when you switched weapons???
If you really want to run drills, PM me for details. You wear it as intended and spend a few runs in the village with UTM rounds...
The sig brace has not found a tactical use yet, nor do I think it ever will. It's only benefit is using it improperly for those who can't or wont get a SBR. I'm not stopping anyone from buying it. Simply stating that you'll never see one used in a gunfight...except on the streets of Compton and turned sideways perhaps. Like I said, it's a gimmick.
The results switching weapons resulted in no differences. That is the whole point. If you can tell me how to shoot my guns, fine, I will tell you how to shoot yours. You can sling accusations all you want if it makes you feel good about yourself, but functionally, there is no difference between a SIG brace and an entry length stock. I can get paperwork, I have a bunch of it and get LEO signatures for the asking, that is not the point. I am so glad that telling people to spend extra money makes you feel good, but it won't change the operation of a weapon. If you do not like it, don't buy it.
The ATF has said repeatedly that firing a pistol AR from the shoulder is NOT a violation of the law, even with the SIG brace. The weapon, and it's accessories are evaluated based on several factors, but how you hold it is NOT one of them. That is user interface alone.
In your past post, you referenced Jerry (I assume Miculek) and Taran Butler. Both guys I know, and who I shoot with, and with whom I have discussed the SIG brace. Neither are LE/Mil, but if I am hearing you right, if they endorse it, it will then be GTG. [Beer]
I am not, nor would I tell you what tools to use. But you are taking grand liberties with saying the SIG is or is not something when you really have no idea what you are talking about. Or did you secretly buy one and try it out in the basement?
kidicarus13
04-25-2014, 11:05
I don't understand the hatred and attempts I've seen online (not just here, but other forums as well) to throw a wrench in the legal workings.
1.) I had to pay for a $200 tax stamp and wait well over a year for the privilege to own a SBR and now this Sig brace gimmick comes along and everyone has one, even the punk kid down the street with the hopped up Honda Civic. I used to look like an elite operator in front of all my shooting buddies and friends with my SBR and now everyone and their brother can look like me. It's not fair so the brace can't be as good as me going SBR the "right" way. F you posers, I'll always be cooler than you.[handbags]
2.) My "real" SBR is way cooler because my agency issues me one to stand perimeter on the twice-a-year hostage situation our agency responds to.
^Good ones^
This is an excellent point and one I'm frequently guilty of forgetting. Not every firearm needs be a duty/defensive weapon. Not everyone cares about duty/defensive weapons.
If you've got the money and it works for your purposes, go nuts.
On point.
Knowing Mick-Boy, hypothetically, if he came and asked me if he should get a SIG brace for a pistol or build an SBR, I would ask him what the purpose is. If he said for "serious work" and he could, then sure, SBR. If he said for a loaner at the range, to teach, etc. then the SIG would work. I'd certainly tell him how I set mine up to make sure it did not become a "tripping hazzard" in any manner. After that, it is up to him, not me, what he does.
Well, I seem to be misinterpreted, by my own fault, as I did not specify in every post that I was referring to using the brace as intended. I agree, that the brace at $165 or $134 or whatever is cheaper than a NFA stamp for those who can't or not allowed to get an SBR and want it solely as a "loophole" item. I have been referring to the intended use of it, as it was made for and advertised as, not as just a add on stock for an AR pistol. In its intended configuration, it has little to no tactical, competitive, or defensive value; only as a limited toy on the range, hence a gimmick. When placed in the shoulder, it is nothing more than a shoulder stock and is essentially the same as similarly configured SBR just with an uncomfortable piece of plastic with straps hanging off it as a stock, and without the option of using a vertical grip. Now the only butthurt I've seen is from those who have bought the brace and don't like their new toy being called a gimmick, and from people making unsubstantiated and evidence-less claims about how it is superior in a "operational" environment which they have not provided any professional experience it.
Its been mentioned several times here and I'll reiterate it as I end my discussion on this (as my opinion on it is well known by now): If you like it, have at it. If you don't, then do as I do and choose not to buy one.
SouthPaw
04-25-2014, 13:11
I see the value in them and there for I use them. They can be quite handy and allow to run my soon to be SBR like an actual rifle until my stamp actual shows up. If walks like a duck and quacks like a duck..
A forgotten ethos was that the Equipment does not the man make. A Sig-Brace is not the end all be all of firearm stocks, But it doesn't have to be. Most of us will never go toe to the line and duke it out with a threat, or threats in CONUS in a genuine gunfight. However I cannot imagine a gunfight where the comfort factor of the stock would play a huge factor in winning vs. losing in a run and gun Carbine/PDW shootout. Also if your out operating in operations, to borrow a colloquialism from TTAG, Then you probably have plates on and the comfort factor of the butt of the Weapon is even less of a factor. I've seen quite a few gun fights won with arguably the least comfortable stock out there, the A-2 fixed stock.
Not in a mean way but most folks I see using suppressors, SBR's and SBS', and Select Fire are simply well dressed Mall Ninja types. And there is nothing wrong with that. Guns are fun, and cool guns are cooler. But to think a 10.5" barrel as opposed to my 16.5" barrel makes you the worlds supreme elite tactical ninja frogman is B.S. And saying that the rubber butt pad on a CTR make it far superior to a Sig-Brace on the same SBR is also B.S.
I honestly don't understand the mindset of owning NFA items. They are regulated objects by an unconstitutional division of government that has a history of changing their minds at the flip of the proverbial coin as to what is and isn't legal in regards to firearms. Personally I do not need my name on any more Federal lists. Ever. The Sig-Brace, 80% Lowers, and the interesting devices our brothers and sisters in Californistan have come up with to run their AR-15's and other "dangerous black rifles" are examples of improvise, adapt, overcome. Such ingenuity in the face of the current thugs in power should be welcomed and encouraged.
The only work around to firearms that currently exist in America is any law that infringes on my right, on your right to exercise the Second Amendment. Rant off.
funkymonkey1111
05-01-2014, 15:27
. You can sling accusations all you want if it makes you feel good about yourself, but functionally, there is no difference between a SIG brace and an entry length stock. I can get paperwork, I have a bunch of it and get LEO signatures for the asking, that is not the point.
of course, you can also take that Sig Brace out of state, whereas that SBR....
Mick-Boy
05-02-2014, 08:23
Before I get rolling I'll repeat my earlier statement, if this works for you and you have the cash, go nuts. It's your life, your money, and your gun. Use it how you think best.
That being said, the right equipment for the job makes a difference. If that wasn't true every unit in the military would be issued the same rifle because hey, equipment doesn't make the man right? A quality stock on a rifle isn't about comfort, it's about being able to mount the stock to your shoulder properly. This becomes even more important when you add on layers of kit, need to shoot multiple targets, or engage mid to long range. A plastic stock (arm brace or not) will slide around where a quality stock with a rubber butt pad won't. SBRs and SBSs have their place outside of mall-ninja fantasy land. A 10.5in rifle has a clear advantage over a 16in gun in confined spaces (working in and out of cars, inside buildings, etc.). Can it be done with a 16in gun? Most of the time. But the mission (job, task, need, etc.) should drive the gear selection. Chose the right tools for the job.
Effective hits on target wins gunfights. If you think this will get it done, by all means, drive forward. I've long since gotten away from selecting gear that's "almost" as good as what what I want for the job.
That being said, the right equipment for the job makes a difference. If that wasn't true every unit in the military would be issued the same rifle because hey, equipment doesn't make the man right?
Most units get essentially the same Rifles and Carbines. Bearded Ninjas have the funds to blow on cool stuff so they do.
Most Marine Infantry Units (cant speak for Big Army,or Bearded Ninjas) are not allowed to modify individual issued weapons. Most Marine Rifleman are issued M-16A-4's. The few guys that do get M-4's are seldom able to swap buttstocks. This is unit SOP driven.
A quality stock on a rifle isn't about comfort, it's about being able to mount the stock to your shoulder properly. This becomes even more important when you add on layers of kit, need to shoot multiple targets, or engage mid to long range. A plastic stock (arm brace or not) will slide around where a quality stock with a rubber butt pad won't.
No currently issued Marine Corps rifles or Carbines are issued with rubber butt pads.
A 10.5in rifle has a clear advantage over a 16in gun in confined spaces (working in and out of cars, inside buildings, etc.). Can it be done with a 16in gun? Most of the time. But the mission (job, task, need, etc.) should drive the gear selection. Chose the right tools for the job.
99.9% of the guys I saw carrying 10.5" -14.5" (minus the regular joes) Carbines were doing so with cans attached. Put a 4-6" can on a 10.5- 14.5 upper... You have a quiet muzzle heavy 16-20" Rifle.
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