Education, Not Self defense.

[Great-Kazoo]

So i'm browsing the "Opinions" page of the coloradoan today and come across this "Thoughtful" insight by a fellow citizen. I'm all for awareness.
However believing we can prevent violence, sexual assault and a predator mentality, By "teaching / educating" it's wrong. Is one more item that confirms how out of touch the non-violent mindset really is.

I'm not on FB or any other social media or i would have replied, which, by reading the comments, there's a shit load of them out there. AND THEY VOTE!.

I am curious how this "education" would be handled. A male inquires about sex and is reprimanded, names of all males who are in sex ed classes given to a re-education group, shock therapy??? They've tried ECT, castration and psychotropic drugs on sexual predators, with little if any success.
Wait i know, shit or urinate on yourself [Bang]

http://www.coloradoan.com/article/20131105/OPINION03/311050070/Letter-Let-s-stop-being-better-victims-instead-prevent-crime-sexual-assault

. Instead of teaching self-defense tactics and how to dress to become less appealing to a predator, wouldn’t time and money be better spent educating the source of pain and suffering in order to initiate a generational mentality shift?

Instead of taking physical self-defense classes to become better victims, why aren’t we teaching our children to prevent the actions that enable the term “victim” to be used at all?

[PSS]

I totally agree with teaching that such behavior is wrong. I enforce that every day in my children. That's my responsibility. Not the school, government, or "village". At the same time they are taught how to prevent anyone from behaving that way towards them. The Utopian like idealism of the liberal/progressive mind is what reinforces the idea in a predators mind they are actually the victim and just misunderstood. They're "sick and need treatment". It's the attitude that everyone deserves respect and consideration regardless of their actions that is killing this nation.

[theGinsue]

The wanton naivete of the liberal left would be laughable if it weren't so prevalent and trying to force it's flawed philosophies on those of us with at least two brain cells to rub together. Instead, it's just sameful and scary.

[Flatline]

Could most violence be reduced through better parenting/education/therapy? Probably

Will I be counseling a violent adult instead of defending myself? Hell no

[GilpinGuy]

If we saw this HEADLINE:
"99% of Fort Collins Women Now Armed and Trained to Defend Themselves Against Sexual Predators"

sexual predation toward women would decline decline 99% the very next day. Something like that.

ETA:
"Oh My My , Oh Hell Yes. HONEY Put on that party Dress." Are you talking to HoneyBadger here? [ROFL1]

[Great-Kazoo]

Could most violence be reduced through better parenting/education/therapy? Probably

Will I be counseling a violent adult instead of defending myself? Hell no

There was a saying, years ago. NO ONE EVER RAPED A .38

The belief that "counselling" young males, sexual assault will some how disappear, or be reduced. Is blissful ignorance. It's the same mentality that believes a GUN FREE ZONE, actually keeps violence away.

[GilpinGuy]

Could most violence be reduced through better parenting/education/therapy? Probably



Maybe it would help, but better parenting can't be forced upon anyone. So we will always have degenerates in our society. It's not pleasant, but it's a reality.

There are complete psychos that come from totally normal families. These psychos sometimes have completely normal siblings that have no violent or deviant tenancies whatsoever. Some of this is just genetic to the individual and inevitable, IMHO. Not ALL criminals of course, but some. Cleanse the worst from the gene pool.

[The Rat]

There was a saying, years ago. NO ONE EVER RAPED A .38


I dunno man. . . .
36091

[merl]

. Instead of teaching self-defense tactics and how to dress to become less appealing to a predator, wouldn’t time and money be better spent educating the source of pain and suffering in order to initiate a generational mentality shift?

Instead of taking physical self-defense classes to become better victims, why aren’t we teaching our children to prevent the actions that enable the term “victim” to be used at all?

The author completely misses the point of self defense. You learn self defense because it does not depend on other people doing anything. It works while you try to introduce your general mentality shift (whatever that is). Self defense limits you to being a victim of assault instead of rape, a rather good trade. Self defense might even make the perpetrators of these acts think twice before committing them; the attacker may end up in jail or the hospital instead of the intended victim.

Last time I checked, self defense doesn't teach to become a better victim. The instructions to "comply and it'll all be over soon enough" are how to be a better victim.

[james_bond_007]

Why not do both ?

Rules:
1) Bring children up and TRY TO instill good morals and values in them.
2) Train them in self-defense to be used against those that can't follow Rule 1.

There are always exceptions to every rule. Rule 2 helps address those "exceptions" for rule 1.

Self-preservation is one of man's primal instincts, both in a preventative and defensive manner.

[Rucker61]

[/I]Last time I checked, self defense doesn't teach to become a better victim. The instructions to "comply and it'll all be over soon enough" are how to be a better victim.


[Like]

[Clint45]

I can understand the rationale behind instruction of basic morals and ethics in a classroom, teaching common sense things like: "don't victimize others," and while that might change a very few people's minds who had never been told these things by their parents or guardians it will not deter anyone who derives pleasure from victimizing others. The fact is that predators know what they're doing is wrong, but do it anyway because they enjoy it.

[Rucker61]

I can understand the rationale behind instruction of basic morals and ethics in a classroom, teaching common sense things like: "don't victimize others," and while that might change a very few people's minds who had never been told these things by their parents or guardians it will not deter anyone who derives pleasure from victimizing others. The fact is that predators know what they're doing is wrong, but do it anyway because they enjoy it.

You aren't wishing hard enough. Visualize World Peace.

[mb504]

One interesting thing this shows is they (the liberal left) thinks that the rest of the world thinks like them... which is flawed when they address two issues that are relevant to this forum.

Crime: They think that the criminal just needs more education about what they are doing is wrong. Then everything will be OK.

Guns: They don't trust themselves with guns and are afraid of them. So then, guns shouldn't be in society at all.

[Irving]

Flawed argument from the get go. The concept that it is not okay to assault, rob, rape, etc another person is not a ceveted secret held only by those with parents. It is a core concept that our entire society is based upon. As demonstrated by anti-smoking campaigns and the drug war, societal pressures to abstain from an action far outweigh any parenting, laws, or classes. No need to comment on the rest as the very idea that people living in society don't know any better is incorrect from the start. Complete and utter failure. Start from scratch and try again.

[TFOGGER]

You aren't wishing hard enough. Visualize World Peace.

http://images.fineartamerica.com/images-medium-large-5/visualize-whirled-peas-kent-lorentzen.jpg

[lowbeyond]

needs MOAR power point, then im on board !

[Clint45]

Flawed argument from the get go. The concept that it is not okay to assault, rob, rape, etc another person is not a ceveted secret held only by those with parents. It is a core concept that our entire society is based upon.

True, but a lot of teens and young adults seem to think that if a girl agrees to go on a date with them, she "owes" them sex; or that if a girl is dressed "like a slut" and gets so drunk she either passes out at a party or accepts a ride home from a random stranger that she "wants" sex. There is a very ugly subculture who does not think of themselves as predatory but still thinks that rape (as defined by law) is somehow permissible if certain conditions are met. It is only a minority of high school and college age men who feel this way, but it happens, it's a fact, and if the alleged perpetrators "come from good families" that have influence in the community, not only do they often escape punishment but sometimes the community turns against the alleged victim. Been seeing a lot of that in the news lately.

[Irving]

That could be true Clint, but it still stands that no class will ever change that.

[Great-Kazoo]

True, but a lot of teens and young adults seem to think that if a girl agrees to go on a date with them, she "owes" them sex; or that if a girl is dressed "like a slut" and gets so drunk she either passes out at a party or accepts a ride home from a random stranger that she "wants" sex. There is a very ugly subculture who does not think of themselves as predatory but still thinks that rape (as defined by law) is somehow permissible if certain conditions are met. It is only a minority of high school and college age men who feel this way, but it happens, it's a fact, and if the alleged perpetrators "come from good families" that have influence in the community, not only do they often escape punishment but sometimes the community turns against the alleged victim. Been seeing a lot of that in the news lately.


How true there was a minority of college aged men (Fraternities) with a subculture of sexual assault. The number of clients i had who attend college, telling me about know sexual assaults, with the college looking the other way was staggering. This "culture" went on for approx 1-2 years before the college and fraternity higher ups shut them down. It seemed the more well off the frat house / alumni donations were, the less repercussion they faced.

I had a confrontation with a well know politicians kid, it didn't end well for hm. Interesting apology from his dad.

[UrbanWolf]

Welcome to Hypothetical Land, where they are flowers, green hills, and Cold Play music playing all the time.

[Ronin13]

From taking the blame for possibly being too scantily clad to the absolute pillaging of any remaining self-respect while forced to describe every foul detail amidst a crowd of peers and strangers
Apparently the author of that letter has absolutely zero effing clue how sexual assault works. First, the victim has to report the incident to the dispatcher- in however much detail may be asked-, then to the responding officer, then to nurses when the rape kit is done, then to a victim's advocate, then a detective, then a deputy DA, then, later down the line, to the defense attorney, then a jury and all attendees in the courtroom at various points... this is not "pillaging" their self respect, this is informing those who need a recitation of the facts for prosecuting the crime that occurred. Does it suck? You bet. But it is one of those crappy things one has to do. And by the way- something is very very wrong with a lot of sexual predators. These people are not simply "fixed"- recent statistics show that 75% of those convicted of a sexual crime are either repeat offenders, or have done it multiple times before getting caught. So while raising your children to not become criminals/predators is one thing, you really can't save them all. There are several cases of criminal sexual deviants who were raised "normally" and somehow became predators over time and did some pretty messed up stuff that shocked their families and childhood friends.

[Flatline]

There was a saying, years ago. NO ONE EVER RAPED A .38

The belief that "counselling" young males, sexual assault will some how disappear, or be reduced. Is blissful ignorance. It's the same mentality that believes a GUN FREE ZONE, actually keeps violence away.

Well, considering that I work for a private company that does exactly this, and our methods are proven through many studies by several universities, I am willing to say that therapy works very well for a large portion of the population. My department seems to think so too (since apparently I need to run every psych call we get), as well as the insurance companies that keep paying us to provide services.

Therapy will not work for all people, especially ASPDs, however there is a very large segment of the population that can be cognitively shaped to understand the social constructs of society and ultimately prevent them from committing violent acts against others.

What is very important is when they need therapy. I could explain this psychologically or biologically, but suffice to say that I cannot change someones neural connections at any real rate after adolescence. At the same time, what happens during and before adolescence is so important, whether a person has a diagnosable pathology or not. Abusing children does not make effective punishment (whipping, excessive constraints, etc), and when these kids are put under fMRI they have very different neural development from the normal population. How people raise their kids is so important (and not all "good" homes are).

To say that counseling or therapy does not work is an extremely uneducated stance to take. (However like I said before I am not going to attempt to counsel a person who is about to assault me or another person, that would be ridiculous)

[Clint45]

Therapy will not work for all people, especially ASPDs, however there is a very large segment of the population that can be cognitively shaped to understand the social constructs of society and ultimately prevent them from committing violent acts against others.


Therapy can help some people, who undergo it voluntarily with an understanding of it's limitations and that they are the ones responsible for how well it works. I do not know how well it works with mentally ill persons who act out violently, but with functional neurotics it seems to work well enough.

Therapy will not benefit sociopaths, and an intelligent predator can learn the *right* answers through trial and error, or a bit of research. Say all the *right* answers, convincingly enough, and a naive but well meaning therapist will think he's realized the error of his ways and making "real progress."

But you cannot compel entire classrooms of minors to undergo group therapy. Not only is it not feasible, but it's unethical.

I do agree that, with patients who consent to it, it can be a good tool in helping people to figure out their own answers to their problems, but don't see how it could work for teaching large groups of people not to rape or victimize others. That seems more like a PSA than therapy. Maybe instead of saying, "it's unethical to molest unconscious girls" they could say, "if you are accused of molesting someone, and convicted, you'll spend a few years in prison and when you get out you'll be in the online registry forever."

[Great-Kazoo]

Well, considering that I work for a private company that does exactly this, and our methods are proven through many studies by several universities, I am willing to say that therapy works very well for a large portion of the population. My department seems to think so too (since apparently I need to run every psych call we get), as well as the insurance companies that keep paying us to provide services.

Therapy will not work for all people, especially ASPDs, however there is a very large segment of the population that can be cognitively shaped to understand the social constructs of society and ultimately prevent them from committing violent acts against others.

What is very important is when they need therapy. I could explain this psychologically or biologically, but suffice to say that I cannot change someones neural connections at any real rate after adolescence. At the same time, what happens during and before adolescence is so important, whether a person has a diagnosable pathology or not. Abusing children does not make effective punishment (whipping, excessive constraints, etc), and when these kids are put under fMRI they have very different neural development from the normal population. How people raise their kids is so important (and not all "good" homes are).

To say that counseling or therapy does not work is an extremely uneducated stance to take. (However like I said before I am not going to attempt to counsel a person who is about to assault me or another person, that would be ridiculous)


If therapy & counseling worked, there would be no need for prisons. While it has potential to work for some, the masses already know how to game the system. The sexual predator who gets released only to repeat their actions. is there mental illness, yes. Can some be helped, sure. The masses in general no way. Unless you propose to (as in public education) attempt to indoctrinate them, at a young age.

There are sociopaths out there, flying under the radar. They walk among us, work beside us and strike with out emotion or fear. Less thne the population in general. Yet still out there. Same for the medicated youths, as we have seen numerous times in the last year.
Counseling may slow down the process of violence, abuse and sexual assaults, however it will never eradicate it.

[Flatline]

If therapy & counseling worked, there would be no need for prisons. While it has potential to work for some, the masses already know how to game the system. The sexual predator who gets released only to repeat their actions. is there mental illness, yes. Can some be helped, sure. The masses in general no way. Unless you propose to (as in public education) attempt to indoctrinate them, at a young age.

There are sociopaths out there, flying under the radar. They walk among us, work beside us and strike with out emotion or fear. Less thne the population in general. Yet still out there. Same for the medicated youths, as we have seen numerous times in the last year.
Counseling may slow down the process of violence, abuse and sexual assaults, however it will never eradicate it.

It's almost like I said that there was a population group that therapy doesn't work for. Right, here it is: "therapy will not work for all people, especially ASPDs".

Also, I am not against prisons at all. I just don't have the fallacy that they are "corrections" or "rehabilitation" or anything else the state/justice systems have labeled them, if they were they wouldn't have over 2/3 recidivism rate after 3 years of release. I view prisons as holding tank that separate those who cannot function in society from those who can, and not a whole lot more. (Also, therapy rates also suck for adult populations so the prisons aren't going anywhere any time soon)

What would work is if people were better parents and people who work with kids were actually good with kids. Most people who say they are like to hang around kids when they are well behaved, but screw it up whenever there is a problem. Instilling punishments that don't effectively reduce behavior are not punishments by definition, that is torture (creating fear that just makes people hide what they do, rather than stop doing it, is not a punishment).

How many people scream at their kids because they are frustrated, or decide that the best approach to their toddler drawing on the wall is a spanking?

On the opposite side how many parents say "if you keep [insert behavior], we are going to turn around and not go to the zoo" and the kids stop for a bit, then start again, and they still end up at the zoo?

I go into schools to do assessments from time to time, and you'd be amazed how awful some teachers are with some kids. When you have created and emotional barrier between yourself and your students who cannot sit still or become distracted after 20 minutes of math that makes you a poor teacher.

How do you make people better parents or teachers? That is a question fraught with ethical limitations (and I genuinely don't have an answer). Though I will say that when peoples progeny become the burden of society, it is no different than "your freedom ends where my freedom begins", "The right to swing my fist ends where the other man's nose begins", etc.

[Aloha_Shooter]

How true there was a minority of college aged men (Fraternities) with a subculture of sexual assault. The number of clients i had who attend college, telling me about know sexual assaults, with the college looking the other way was staggering. This "culture" went on for approx 1-2 years before the college and fraternity higher ups shut them down. It seemed the more well off the frat house / alumni donations were, the less repercussion they faced.

I had a confrontation with a well know politicians kid, it didn't end well for hm. Interesting apology from his dad.

Very true. This is where I find fault on both sides. We had a fraternity on campus that was well-known for these "antics". Their reputation was so bad and so well-known that any girl past freshman who walked through their doors had to be obtuse to not know what she was in for. I still thought the guys there were reprobates and applauded when the college (finally!) gave them a one-year suspension (i.e., the frat was banned from campus and the house was physically closed for a year) but juniors and seniors complaining about getting groped (or worse) at their parties before the suspension? Yeah, okay, I'm finding it hard to sympathize with that. It's like a guy who chases after the most promiscuous girl in school then complains later about catching something.

As far as the community turning against the victim, one only has to look at Billy Boy Clinton's victims to see that phenomena over and over.