View Full Version : Old Home Owners Suck / I need advise.
Hey Guys,
My wife and I purchased our home a little over a year ago. We had our home inspection done and he did miss some very big items but this one we just found tops them all. I was down in my crawl space and I noticed a drip coming from under the bathroom. After crawling over there I found that my bathroom subfloor under the shower is completely rotted and it was soaked all the way through the joist from top to bottom. I got an industry fan and let it dry for about three weeks now and also as I expected the mold came. I am in the process of trying to clean this. I called the Westminster permits office and they did say you need a permit to go from a tub to a standing shower, which is what the old home owners did. (It appears that they did not seal around floor drain.) His records showed that no permit was pulled for our house. My question to you guys is, is there anything I can do to get the old home owners to pay? I have not yet looked at my home disclosure paperwork, but assuming they didn't disclose it, are they liable for any portion?
Thanks,
No dude your just flat screwed there is nothing you can do to go after the old owner. Good luck. You can't even go after the inspection company or realtor nothing..
You are probably better served in saving your money to make the repairs rather than spending it to recover from someone else.
At least when you are done, you will know what you have done right.
is there anything I can do to get the old home owners to pay?
-that ship has sailed.
It's all yours now. Mold was an extra bonus!
Great-Kazoo
11-19-2013, 19:38
More than likely not, however i can get you a deal on sod.
No dude your just flat screwed there is nothing you can do to go after the old owner. Good luck. You can't even go after the inspection company or realtor nothing..
While that is not true, the cost of such will probably exceed the benefit. The most I might try is small claims court, but you can probably only sue one party at a time in small claims. If you have more time than money, it might be a path to get some of the money for the repairs. You might be able to get some traction by reporting the involved companies to the BBB, but that won't get you any money back.
If no permit was pulled you can go back to a tub without permits.
So when did it start leaking? How can you prove it...
Sent by a free-range electronic weasel, with no sense of personal space.
hghclsswhitetrsh
11-19-2013, 19:57
So when did it start leaking? How can you prove it...
Sent by a free-range electronic weasel, with no sense of personal space.
My thoughts exactly.
Have you contacted your home owners insurance agent?
mahabali
11-19-2013, 19:59
What does it take to get a permit?
SideShow Bob
11-19-2013, 20:18
About $40 and the incontinence of an inspection from a city dumazz after the work is compleated (within 90 days).
So when did it start leaking? How can you prove it...
Have you contacted your home owners insurance agent?
If you contact your insurance company, they will hire someone like me, who will examine it, determine the defect and if it really was faulty installation, they will deny the claim. It is possible you may get some tear out coverage in order to expose and determine the damage. However, once that claim is made, then there is also a basis for them to deny any subsequent claim if it can be connected.
Even though I work on these kinds of cases on a regular basis professionally, I actually went through the exact same process with my first house. I got the tear-out coverage only because I knew how to argue to claim with the insurance company.
CAVEAT EMPTOR Does not apply to a home purchase unilaterally. That is one reason the mortgage holder requires inspections. I have actually worked on cases where the homeowner successfully sued the lender for "certification" of a residence that had defects. They got the entire repair, costs and temporary housing costs paid for by the lender.
Good points, I was referring to the definition when a defect is obvious upon reasonable inspection before purchase. Which does seems to have been lacking in this case.
Thanks for all of your input guys. Do you think its worth contacting the home insurance?
I have a plumbing related question, but don't want to derail this thread until it has run its course.
If you do this repair yourself, you should document and put up a thread in the new DIY section!
Ask away! My question has been answered. I am thinking that I will just do this myself. The only thing I am worried about is the mold. My wife and I are planning on having kids and I dont want that in my house and I want to make sure its clean...
Thanks for all of your input guys. Do you think its worth contacting the home insurance?
It is a gamble depending on 1. How long you will keep the house. 2. How good your insurance claims adjusters "will be." and 3. Do you have a good relationship with your agent.
If you make a claim, you will have to disclose that when you sell. Could cost you some money short term if you sell. Claims adjusters are not all equal even within the same company. I deal with them daily from some of the majors and some seem hell bent on denying legitimate claims while others look for every angle to pay for a non-covered claim. If you can have a discussion with your agent, they might be able to give you more direct and personal feedback.
Then again, consider your deductible against the amount of damage considering that you could get sur-charged for 3 years as well. This is where your agent can really help you understand your coverage and the potential up and down side of a claim in light of your actual policy. Part of why I don't like companies where you don't get your own agent.
Ask away! My question has been answered. I am thinking that I will just do this myself. The only thing I am worried about is the mold. My wife and I are planning on having kids and I dont want that in my house and I want to make sure its clean...
Mold is in the air you are breathing right now. There are solutions that will treat and then seal the mold. It really is not that scary. Those wacky plaintiffs cost us all a LOT of coin with their crazy lawsuits. There are websites that have good information on treating mold.
Thanks for the help guys.
crashdown
11-19-2013, 22:14
Who do I sue?
There was not a single permit pulled to build my house nor any of the work done through the 60+ years and multiple owners.
Plus I did my own pre-purchase inspection.
Seriously... If you have a second bathroom to use while fixing the bad one, it doesn't sound like too hard of a project.
I agree that it doesn't sound to difficult, but finding the cash to correct their mistake is the trouble.
Ahh... The joys of home ownership.
If your bathroom project turns out good, I could use a little work around my place. Maybe some siding, about a dozen new windows, some fence repairs.... I'm sure I'm forgetting some other stuff too.
Okay, here it the scenario. I have to be light on some details so bear with me.
This is a multifamily (commercial) property where the water is regularly shut off for various maintenance reasons. Every time the water is turned back on, the faucets have a lot of pressure the first time they are turned on.
So the water was turned off, when it was turned back on, the nut securing the supply line for the toilet blew up spraying water every where. Another tenant noticed that water was leaking from some where within about 30 minutes and the water was shut back off. The HOA came to the conclusion that the nut on the line blowing up is a maintenance issue and the tenant is responsible for any damage.
If this was a rubber seal, maybe I could see it, but a metal nut? I liken this to a light bulb popping from a power surge. Is that a comparable situation?
Great-Kazoo
11-19-2013, 23:20
Thanks for all of your input guys. Do you think its worth contacting the home insurance?
Weigh the deductible vs overall cost of repair. You will need more than 1 fan going for at least 3-4 days, minimum, to dissipate the moisture. Myself i'd cut the whole area out, start from scratch. The surrounding area where the rotten wood was cut, make sure it's dry. Then a good mold and mildew primer application.
Plumbing is easy, i would not waste time or money to the cty / city you reside for a permit. HOWEVER everything needs to be to code.
Irving,
I would not call it a maintenance issue on the tenants at all. Surge protection is a fundamental component of plumbing system design. While the system may be old enough that the code did not require it, the persons who turn the water off and on (contractor, property management, etc.) would be responsible for mitigation of pressure surges, which is easily accomplished. I would term it incompetence on the part of the person who is effecting the maintenance. If the HOA controls the water, then "their" system caused the damage to the supply riser. There are sections in the relevant plumbing code that deal with maintenance and repair regardless of whether or not permit required work is being performed.
Thank you MarkCO. I feel the same way. The HOA has written this off to a maintenance issue as of now and I don't know what recourse the condo owner has now. I'd love to get the HOA on the phone though.
Does the condo owner have insurance? If so, they should file a claim and let them go after the HOA for subrogation. If not, have the condo owner file a claim against the HOAs insurance.
rockhound
11-20-2013, 07:05
Adam,
you are concerned about things that have not happened yet, even if their is mold it most likely is not toxic, even if it is toxic you are probably not allergic to it. with our extremely low humidity levels in colorado the mold will go dormant quickly anyway if you fix the leak.
as to the original question, there is no way to prove that the drain line was not properly sealed when installed, the plumbers putty and o ring that would have been under the pan can a do fail. how old is this shower pan? if this install was done 10-20 years ago there may have very well have been no permit necessary. how do you know they changed it from a tub to a shower? did they tell you they did? it is it possible the owner before them changed the shower? is the wood under the tub actually rotted or is it just wet and turning colors? this may just be an issue of fixing the drain lines. Just because a permit wasn't pulled doesn't mean the original install wasn't done properly.
I pull permits for structural things, My new deck 700 sf, 10 feet off the ground, absolutely, The new 1000 sf shop, absolutely, Pull a permit to r&r my tub and install new tile, fat chance.
The only chance you have might be against the inspector's O&E insurance, but it will cost you 10K plus.
My suggestion, stop asking the building department anything, you may be opening up a can of worms you wont be able to afford to fix, get yourself some DIY books and buy some new tools and show your wife you are capable of taking care of the house and the family when shit like this happens. I have news for you, unless you make a crap load of money, you cant afford to own your home if you are going to hire a contractor and pull permits every time you need to repair it.
Okay, here it the scenario. I have to be light on some details so bear with me.
This is a multifamily (commercial) property where the water is regularly shut off for various maintenance reasons. Every time the water is turned back on, the faucets have a lot of pressure the first time they are turned on.
So the water was turned off, when it was turned back on, the nut securing the supply line for the toilet blew up spraying water every where. Another tenant noticed that water was leaking from some where within about 30 minutes and the water was shut back off. The HOA came to the conclusion that the nut on the line blowing up is a maintenance issue and the tenant is responsible for any damage.
If this was a rubber seal, maybe I could see it, but a metal nut? I liken this to a light bulb popping from a power surge. Is that a comparable situation?
Sounds like too much pressure to begin with. A regulator should have been installed to regulate the maximum water pressure. Landscapers crank the things up all the time to increase their sprinkler coverage and it can cause real damage. Throw a guage on an exterior sillcock and check, should be @ 50lbs.
Sounds like too much pressure to begin with. A regulator should have been installed to regulate the maximum water pressure. Landscapers crank the things up all the time to increase their sprinkler coverage and it can cause real damage. Throw a guage on an exterior sillcock and check, should be @ 50lbs.
Code only requires pressure no higher than 80 psi, since about the late 1980s. Prior to that, there was no maximum per code. An air filled line compressed with water pressure creates significant pressure. Heck, there was a young man killed in Steamboat due to a fitting blowing off due to this.
dirtrulz
11-20-2013, 09:22
If you know they are turning off your water and you wont be home when they turn it back on I always flush the toilets so the valve will be open when they turn the pressure on, at least then it can bleed off some of the pressure and not blow anything up.
funkymonkey1111
11-20-2013, 11:43
review your inspector's terms and conditions to see if you've agreed to a limitation of liability, generally capped at his fees.
rockhound
11-20-2013, 15:01
review your inspector's terms and conditions to see if you've agreed to a limitation of liability, generally capped at his fees.
they do have that clause in most if not all.. however that does not excuse them if they missed an obvious defect.
still costs way too much to fight it,
Holger Danske
11-20-2013, 20:11
OP,
Did you get a home warranty when you bought the house? The seller may have included a one year warranty in the contract. If so, contact them asap.
That is pretty good advise. Your view of pulling permits seams to be very similar to other people that have given me advise as well. As a new home owner I have not figured that out just yet. Thanks for the input.
Adam,
you are concerned about things that have not happened yet, even if their is mold it most likely is not toxic, even if it is toxic you are probably not allergic to it. with our extremely low humidity levels in colorado the mold will go dormant quickly anyway if you fix the leak.
as to the original question, there is no way to prove that the drain line was not properly sealed when installed, the plumbers putty and o ring that would have been under the pan can a do fail. how old is this shower pan? if this install was done 10-20 years ago there may have very well have been no permit necessary. how do you know they changed it from a tub to a shower? did they tell you they did? it is it possible the owner before them changed the shower? is the wood under the tub actually rotted or is it just wet and turning colors? this may just be an issue of fixing the drain lines. Just because a permit wasn't pulled doesn't mean the original install wasn't done properly.
I pull permits for structural things, My new deck 700 sf, 10 feet off the ground, absolutely, The new 1000 sf shop, absolutely, Pull a permit to r&r my tub and install new tile, fat chance.
The only chance you have might be against the inspector's O&E insurance, but it will cost you 10K plus.
My suggestion, stop asking the building department anything, you may be opening up a can of worms you wont be able to afford to fix, get yourself some DIY books and buy some new tools and show your wife you are capable of taking care of the house and the family when shit like this happens. I have news for you, unless you make a crap load of money, you cant afford to own your home if you are going to hire a contractor and pull permits every time you need to repair it.
Done appraisals not inspections.
The bottom lines "did the owner know this was a pre-existing problem". The inspector didn't find it (don't use that inspector again). Burden of proof.
Move on.
Last house I owned, my inspector found some high dollar problems. When I sold, their inspector found fluff items.
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