Long Distance 22LR - Scope Zero, Base and Elevation Adjustment?

[BuffCyclist]

My Savage Mark II-FV (22LR) is mounted in a Boyd's Thumbhole Varmint stock with a Mueller 8-32x44 (40moa total elevation) scope mounted in Burris Signature Zee rings with up to 20moa adjustment with inserts (-10, 0 and +10).

In the past, I have zeroed the scope at 50yds and can easily get a <3/8" hole without trying much (on 16x magnification even - I have bad eyes which is why I went for a high magnification). So, I want to start challenging myself, and set this rifle up for 100+ yard distances.

The only problem is that when zeroed at 50yds, even with the +20moa inserts (-10 front, +10 rear), I only have a few moa left of up elevation adjustment (like 5 if that). Which means my mechanical zero is not in the middle of the scope like I would have hoped. In fact, I've taken the scope off of the rings so many times because I keep getting frustrated and changing my mind on what distance to zero and set it up for and which ring inserts to use. And I have done it with all combinations of inserts. Honestly, at the moment, I have no idea what the scope/inserts are even setup for.

I did a LOT of research last night on scopes and adjustments for long distances and think I finally understand. With that in mind, my plan is to shim my rear scope base to give me +20-25moa built in (no different than getting a DIP Products 25moa scope rail). The Signature Zee rings with the inserts will counteract that shim and therefore I won't damage my scope. Then, to zero at 100yds, the scope should be close to bottomed out, giving me a total of +40 moa elevation of up, which should get me to 290yds with subsonic or 320yds with supersonic (mini mags).

When I get home on Wednesday, I'm going to take my scope off, record the insets, and count the internal adjustment (which I've never really done and then recorded) to see if I have close to that 40moa internal adjustment. Then I'll shim the rear base to give me 20-25moa of cant, so that I can use the inserts to get close to 40moa cant. This will leave my scope zeroed at the bottom end of the elevation adjustment, because that would maximize the amount of up adjustment, helping me get out to longer distances without replacing the scope (which I love by the way).

My question is this: is leaving the scope zeroed out at the bottom of its elevation adjustment a bad idea, or should I change the base/inserts to be +30moa adjustment (instead of +40moa), so that I still have -10moa adjustment internal to the scope?

I know that if I shoot closer than 100yds with the scope zeroed and bottomed out there, I would have to hold UNDER, by as much as 3-4 inches, which ins't a problem.

Long question short, I want to be able to take full advantage of the 40moa internal adjustment of this scope so that I don't have to sell the scope and get a new one. Since .22LR has roughly 40moa of drop at 300yds, I figure that will get me close enough.

Is my thinking correct? Is this a hairbrained idea? Will it set me up for failure in the future with long distance shooting if I get by this way (knowing that my future 700 build has a scope better suited to longer distance shooting).

[Tim K]

When a scope is near the top or bottom of its adjustment range horizontal adjustment is also limited. You should be fine if you can still get a wind zero.

With that said, I'd leave a little room so you can dial down to 40 or 50 yards. Trying to hold 3 1/2" under on the squirrel that's pissing off your dog isn't all that easy. 200 yards is a very long shot with a .22. At 300, I don't think you'll have enough indication on the target or the background to see a hit or miss unless you're just shooting paper. What I'm trying awkwardly to say is I think the more useful range for the elevation adjustment is closer up rather than farther out. You can always hold over for the very long shots. Make the scope more useful up close.

[BuffCyclist]

I should have mentioned this too, that scope is a target dot only (3/16" dot at 100yds), so it has no gradations or tick marks to use. I'm also aware that at the top/bottom of adjustment, windage is affected too, but thanks for pointing that out as well. I'm new to this type of thinking (cranking every last bit of distance out of a rifle), so all input is really appreciated!

Also, this will be only a range scope, no shooting critters. However, my dog is psycho enough that she'd kill that squirrel with a heart attack at how crazy she is. The neighborhood kids liken my dog to that dog from Sandlot...

Do you think that setting it up for 250yds is good enough? With subsonics, having 30moa of vertical adjustment in the scope would get me out to 250yds, supersonics it'd get me closer to 280yds. That would leave me with 10moa of down adjustment, so I'd build in 30moa in shims/inserts.

That is, assuming I have the full 40moa of internal adjustment the scope claims to have. If I have more, say, 45moa, would 5moa of down be enough, in your opinion, for closer than 100yds?

And yes, I realize this is all probably a crapshoot as I'll get out to 200yds and see how difficult it is and give up, set the scope back for 50yds and start tying flies to the target in attempts to kill them instead. [LOL]


eta: This thinking is all me trying to become a better rifle shooter since I tend to enjoy/shoot pistols a whole heck of a lot more, and since I want to get a .308 within the next year, I'd like to have some better fundamentals and know some theory behind the scopes and longer distance shooting than just blasting and wasting ammo.

e-eta: And thank you TimK for the input! I appreciate you taking the time to help me out!!

e-e-eta: This is also a target only rifle, since I don't hunt. Unless TEOTWAWKI happens, then I change it back for up close stuff.

[Tim K]

You should only need 5 MOA down with a 100 yard zero to get to any close range. That leaves you 35 theoretical MOA of up. Depending on your elevation, that should get you to 250-270 yards.

Those are long shots with a .22.

At 250 yards, a full value wind on a .22 gives you almost 24" of wind. That's huge. If you learn to shoot that .22 out to 250, you'll be a friggin genius with a centerfire. The same full value wind (10 mph at 9:00) will move a 175g SMK 24" at over 600 yards.

Honestly, the reticle in your scope will limit your progress more than any subtle changes in shimming. Wind is best dealt with by holding off the correct angle (say .5 moa) with the reticle. If your scope has no hash marks, you'll have to resort to holding wind in inches. That's fine if you know your target size, not so fine if you don't. Since this is a practice gun, you can maybe get away with that reticle. In the long run, you'll be better served with a reticle with some sort of hashes for wind.

Assuming you're stuck with that reticle, I'd make some 2" wide steel targets that swing easily and set them out at ranges from 50 to 250 yards. If you hit that thing at 250, you are indeed, The Man.

[BuffCyclist]

Again, thanks for the reply!

I think I'd feel better too if I had 5moa of down travel, even though it probably won't be used that much, it would make me feel better knowing my scope isn't bottomed out.

And like I said before, I know these are all very long shots with a .22, but range time is range time no matter how frustrating it may be at times lol. I have looked at the wind values too, but not that much since my range is only about 50-75ft wide and has 20ft high berms, which block most wind from 90deg. I will however sometimes have wind at my back, which still won't help anything.

On my big gun (planned 308), I'll definitely spend more time looking at scopes and reticles, but this was a fun and trainer gun and I wanted a lot of magnification because of my bad eyes, so I settled. I may eventually get rid of it and get something in the 4-16x range with mil-dots.

I'll keep that in mind, if I hit a 2" target at 250 yards, I'm The Man. But if I do it, I want that title [LOL]

Here is a pic through the scope: http://muelleroptics.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/161.jpg

[Great-Kazoo]

shooting subs@ 250? with no breeze or other distractions, maybe. The 223 subs i tried in wind were less than impressive. Kentucky windage was an understatement.

[Tim K]

What ammo are you shooting? My MK II likes Eley Target, but there are lots of good choices.

.22 trainers are profound training tools. Aside from recoil control, you can learn most everything there is to know with a .22.

[BuffCyclist]

I know I have some Eley, but not sure which variety, just that its subsonic. I have a bunch of mini-mags (supersonic) and a few other "match" rated ammo. Was planning on heading to the LGS to pick some stuff up before heading to the range, hoping to go on Friday.

To be honest, I don't know what ammo I have right now, I haven't touched my 22 rifle/ammo in the past year due to the lack of ammo availability/replaceability. I know I have at least 3 types of match ammo, but not very much.

And that's exactly what I was hoping for with the 22, to learn ALL the fundamentals with this rifle before I make the leap to a 308.

[BuffCyclist]

Well thats odd.

Went to the range, started with my shim giving me +10moa. Had 0,0 inserts in my Burris Signature Zee rings. Got on paper at with a string of 3 shots at 50yds and was 6" low, which translated to over 10moa, so I decided to use the inserts to bring me up. On front, I put -10 on bottom, +10 on top and in back I put +10 on bottom, and -10 on top, giving me a total of +20moa.

Shot another string of 3 and was in the EXACT same place. Shot another 3 because I didn't believe it after using the inserts to bring me up 20moa, there should have been some noticeable change. Nada, still at 6 inches lows.

Used the scope internals and got zeroed, moved out to 100yds and zeroed officially with subsonics. I am left with only 10moa of internal adjustment up, which is not even close to get me out to 200yds. Ended up shooting at 200yds, never hit my 3" target, but I did hit a clay pigeon on the backstop and shattered it, so that counts, right?! [LOL]

Debating contacting Burris about the scope rings, their supposed system should make somewhat of a difference, but these did absolutely nothing which makes me think they aren't even different size inserts even though they're stamped that way. At the same time, I'm debating taking the scope off again, removing the inserts and measuring them with a set of micrometers. I might also get the DIP 25moa Rail to guarantee me a 25moa starting point.

And, I'm also considering selling my scope now. Even at 16x, I had a very hard time keeping good sight alignment. Besides, 16x is about as high as I ever take the magnification up while shooting.

TimK, do you really like your TRS-1? That has a MUCH better exit-pupil and might be more useable for me. And that isn't that much of a difference in price should I be able to sell my Mueller scope for a decent price.

Target pics to follow, need to put some stuff away and clean up first.

[Tim K]

I agree somethings funny in the way you have the scope mounted. I'd do the DIP rail and be done with it.

I do like my TRS-1, but if you can live without variable power I'd consider a SWFA Super Sniper. Pick you magnification. They do 4X, 6X, 10X, 12X, 16X, and 20X. I bought a 20X for a precision AR and like it. I liked it enough that I just bought a 16X for my soon-to-be-finished 40X. It should show up Monday or Tuesday. They are $300. Glass is decent and they have a reputation for tracking. I haven't put mine on the test fixture yet, but I'm hoping to get to that this weekend sometime.

The TRS-1 is acceptable glass. I checked tracking on mine and checked the reticle subtensions, and it was spot on. The clicks feel like crap but seem to work. Here's the real problem, and it's become almost a show stopper for me. The reticle is calibrated at 10X, not max power of 16X. It's amazingly stupid. It didn't matter to me early in my shooting journey because I wasn't using the reticle for wind holds. Now that I've seen that particular light, it's a source of constant aggravation.

In fact, it pissed me off enough the last time I shot it I'm considering selling it and buying yet another Super Sniper.

[BuffCyclist]

Here is my zero target at 100yds using Aguila Golden Eagle Subsonics. The middle 3 in the orange dot are zeroed. That orange dot is 1" in diameter. The zero started at the hole top right, walked it down, then left too far, then down too far, then right and got it on the dot and did the final 3 shots without touching the turrets.

37213

Here's my rifle and the target out at 200yds.

37211

View through the scope at 200yds.

37207



Here is my best 200yd grouping. It is the three holes at 10-11 oclock by the huge orange dot. Overall, they are roughly 1.5" high apart and 0.75" wide, so less than 1moa if you can believe that. I tried adjusting to get it in the center, and ended up in the hole at the 1:30 oclock position of the orange dot. Gave up at that point. The top target is me walking in the scope at 50yds. Guess I only fired 2 shots at first, changed scope inserts, and the two just to the left (2" right of vertical line between two targets) was after the inserts were changed. Then I walked it in, forgetting that 1/8" moa clicks at 50yds is a lot more clicks than I first thought [LOL]

37215

[BuffCyclist]

I agree somethings funny in the way you have the scope mounted. I'd do the DIP rail and be done with it.

I do like my TRS-1, but if you can live without variable power I'd consider a SWFA Super Sniper. Pick you magnification. They do 4X, 6X, 10X, 12X, 16X, and 20X. I bought a 20X for a precision AR and like it. I liked it enough that I just bought a 16X for my soon-to-be-finished 40X. It should show up Monday or Tuesday. They are $300. Glass is decent and they have a reputation for tracking. I haven't put mine on the test fixture yet, but I'm hoping to get to that this weekend sometime.

The TRS-1 is acceptable glass. I checked tracking on mine and checked the reticle subtensions, and it was spot on. The clicks feel like crap but seem to work. Here's the real problem, and it's become almost a show stopper for me. The reticle is calibrated at 10X, not max power of 16X. It's amazingly stupid. It didn't matter to me early in my shooting journey because I wasn't using the reticle for wind holds. Now that I've seen that particular light, it's a source of constant aggravation.

In fact, it pissed me off enough the last time I shot it I'm considering selling it and buying yet another Super Sniper.

Thanks for the tips, decide that at $42 shipped, I'll just get the DIP 25moa rail and use that only. I'm probably okay without variable, never had a scope without it but I had already considered getting a SWFA SS scope for my .308 build, so if I got it for my 22LR rifle, which I'm using to be a better long distance shooter, then I'll be very familiar with the scope when I get another for my .308 build (or just pull this one onto it). I was looking at either the 12x or 16x, do they both have the 120moa internal adjustment that I've been seeing people claim? That value isn't listed on the product page (it just says "Mils" next Elevation/Windage Adjustment).

And this is what I mean with this rifle, I really want to LOVE it (its beautiful, love how it shoots at 50yds, today my tightest group was just under 1/2", I could barely make out all 3 holes). But every time I take it out and try to zero the scope in the middle of the travel using those burris rings, it doesn't work the way it should and I end up taking the scope off 3-5 times per session before I give up and go home. In the past 1.5yrs I've owned that scope, it has only truly been zeroed today at 100yds. The rest of the time as soon as I got home, I took the scope off to change out the inserts since they didn't do jack.

[XC700116]

If you're looking at an SS, they've got some pretty good deals running right now. I just picked up a 16X fixed SS that came with a free set of their rings and a level for $277.36 shipped. ($50 off the scope plus the free rings and level)

[BuffCyclist]

If you're looking at an SS, they've got some pretty good deals running right now. I just picked up a 16X fixed SS that came with a free set of their rings and a level for $277.36 shipped. ($50 off the scope plus the free rings and level)

Thanks, yea I already saw that today. I really shouldn't buy it now (at least until my other scope is sold), but with a deal like that I might end up getting it now and selling my other scope immediately.

eta: And I'm thinking I'll just get the 10x MRAD with mil-quad reticle.

[Tim K]

If you're looking at an SS, they've got some pretty good deals running right now. I just picked up a 16X fixed SS that came with a free set of their rings and a level for $277.36 shipped. ($50 off the scope plus the free rings and level)


I tried to buy one but they were showing out of stock. Still are.

[Tim K]

I was looking at either the 12x or 16x, do they both have the 120moa internal adjustment?.

No, higher powers give less adjustment. I just asked them that very question and got an email response. I can't for the life of me find it. Whatever the numbers were, they were not the same.

[BuffCyclist]

I tried to buy one but they were showing out of stock. Still are.

Really? I can't see any stock info on the SWFA website, looks to me like all of their scopes are in-stock.


No, higher powers give less adjustment. I just asked them that very question and got an email response. I can't for the life of me find it. Whatever the numbers were, they were not the same.

Ah yes that's right, thank you for that reminder! Might end up ordering the 10x anyways.

[Tim K]

They show in stock until you put it in your cart. If you can make it work, order one for me.

[XC700116]

you have to open the individual scope page, (can't use the add to cart button from the list page) Then select the rings you want and add to cart.

go here http://swfa.com/SWFA-SS-16x42-Tactical-Riflescope-P53715.aspx

Then click on the ring you want below the add to cart button, then hit add to cart.

It's goofy as hell, and took me a trip to their FB page to figure it out.

[BuffCyclist]

They show in stock until you put it in your cart. If you can make it work, order one for me.

Really? When I put it in my cart, it doesn't say anything about being in-stock, backordered, or unavailable even. [Dunno]

[Tim K]

you have to open the individual scope page, (can't use the add to cart button from the list page) Then select the rings you want and add to cart.

go here http://swfa.com/SWFA-SS-16x42-Tactical-Riflescope-P53715.aspx

Then click on the ring you want below the add to cart button, then hit add to cart.

It's goofy as hell, and took me a trip to their FB page to figure it out.

That did it. Thanks!

[BuffCyclist]

Well I ordered the DIP 25moa rail and a SWFA SS 10x MRAD scope on their Cyber Monday sale. The price was too good to pass up, and I was wanting to get one for my future Rem700, so this way I can see if I really like it. I went with the MilQuad reticle instead of the mildot because of how far down the MQ reticle went (more of a "cross" than a "plus"). With the MQ reticle, I only have to dial up 3mil to get to 300yds using the bottom most dot (but I'd probably dial 5mil or more so I could still have some reticle underneath).

Got the DIP rail monday and installed it. The scope objective will now sit about 0.25" above the barrel, so higher than I'd like but it'll do. The scope came today and all I can say on my initial impression is wow! I LOVE the reticle, the glass is nice and clear, easy to focus and definitely very solid. The clicks are very solid, both audible and physical. My other scope the windage is mushy and there is no audible click. Counted the internal adjustment and I have 40mil in both directions, which is close to 137moa which is definitely more than needed (probably didn't even need the 25moa rail but now I've got it lol).

Need to sell off my other scope when I get home. Since I'm on a work shift, I'll be running the SS turrets through their 50 revolutions (top to bottom, 50x) to smear out the grease and lap the threading during my work shift. With any luck, I'll be able to mount the scope and head to the range either Monday or Tuesday. If I can get the reticle figured out then I'll compete in a silhouette shoot at my range next weekend (really wanting to get into competitions). I think this competition goes out to 150yds max. Since it'd be my first one and I don't plan on winning (also am out of match ammo), I just plan on getting introduced to the competition atmosphere and learning the course a bit.