Firefighters... WTF!?!!?

[KAPA]

With all of these recalls this year firefighters are kicking in big bucks to prevent the recalls, anyone know what is up with this? Do I need to turn anti-firefighter now? They seem to be anti-me.

[cstone]

I try not to confuse the union/association with the rank and file. If you want to get any union member riled up, start rattling off some of the liberal/progressive/Democratic candidates they are paying their union/association dues to support.

[lowbeyond]

the rank and file is the union

[hghclsswhitetrsh]

I try not to confuse the union/association with the rank and file. If you want to get any union member riled up, start rattling off some of the liberal/progressive/Democratic candidates they are paying their union/association dues to support.

This.

[KAPA]

Yeah so drop the union. I would be livid if I was a firefighter and found out that money from my paycheck was going to this crap. Hell, as a taxpayer this pisses me off! Trying to figure out what I can do about it but all I can come up with is "don't set my house on fire to create business for the firefighters" and I hope I already have that one checked off my list.

[cstone]

Elect politicians who refuse to submit to collective bargaining.

Once collective bargaining is allowed, a bargaining unit is elected by the employees. The bargaining unit then can negotiate on behalf of the rank and file and does not have to represent the interest of the members. Bargaining unit leaders are elected, but like most elections, an active minority normally chooses who will be the leaders. If the leaders provide enough "bread and circuses" for their members, they will continue to be elected. The longer the leaders are in office, the less likely they will be opposed and they will operate almost with impunity until either the rank and file throw them out or politicians remove collective bargaining.

What private employers do regarding labor relations makes little difference to me. I find public sector unions absolutely abhorrent. The politicians already work for us (the owners). Why do we need another layer of protection for people employed by the People? Redundant, wasteful, and corrupt; that is my opinion of public sector unions. I would feel the same way regardless of where their union dues are going and who they support.

[sniper7]

most unions go after their one cause. airline pilot unions are very similar. teacher unions are obvious, except there is a good amount of teachers that don't come close to agreeing with "who" the union supports.
I have yet to meet a firefighter who didn't have some of the same values as myself.

[encorehunter]

I personally do not care for unions. I have been part of one for the last ten years, and they seem to do what they want. Very few times have there been votes on who and what to support. I have been abandoned by IAFF in the past by being told "your group doesn't pay enough dues, so it isn't worth us providing the lawyers." I do not like my dues being spent on a lot of things they choose. They protect the lazy.

[brutal]

Elect politicians who refuse to submit to collective bargaining.

Once collective bargaining is allowed, a bargaining unit is elected by the employees. The bargaining unit then can negotiate on behalf of the rank and file and does not have to represent the interest of the members. Bargaining unit leaders are elected, but like most elections, an active minority normally chooses who will be the leaders. If the leaders provide enough "bread and circuses" for their members, they will continue to be elected. The longer the leaders are in office, the less likely they will be opposed and they will operate almost with impunity until either the rank and file throw them out or politicians remove collective bargaining.

What private employers do regarding labor relations makes little difference to me. I find public sector unions absolutely abhorrent. The politicians already work for us (the owners). Why do we need another layer of protection for people employed by the People? Redundant, wasteful, and corrupt; that is my opinion of public sector unions. I would feel the same way regardless of where their union dues are going and who they support.

cstone hit the nail on the head. This Democratic in power BS all started back in the 60's when Kennedy gave Federal workers collective bargaining rights. It's a vicious cycle akin to entitlements. Public sector employees should not be allowed collective bargaining. Pay for performance like the private sector non-union jobs most of us have to work to keep.

[Brass]

When I walked with the recall petition, I encountered two different state patrolmen (retired) in their homes. Both declined to sign. Probably for the same reason that firefighters support libs like Hudak - the government employees know who is better for their wallets.

[lowbeyond]

Everyone is beating around the bush so ill just say it..

The Fire Fighters via their union have sold you out for money. Saying its not me its the union is just passing the buck. They ARE the union.

[encorehunter]

Everyone is beating around the bush so ill just say it..

The Fire Fighters via their union have sold you out for money. Saying its not me its the union is just passing the buck. They ARE the union.

So you voted for Obama since he is now President? If you were a voting member of the US, that is what you are saying.

[lowbeyond]

swing and a miss.

but hey, keep making excuses.

its pretty clear the union thinks that money, to be specific, their members money, everyone else's meh - not so much; is more important then gun rights, else why would they give 10k to an anit gun pro-collective bargaining politician?

but if you wish to believe otherwise, well that is a way i suppose. its a great delusion.

[jerrymrc]

cstone hit the nail on the head. This Democratic in power BS all started back in the 60's when Kennedy gave Federal workers collective bargaining rights. It's a vicious cycle akin to entitlements. Public sector employees should not be allowed collective bargaining. Pay for performance like the private sector non-union jobs most of us have to work to keep.

Couple of thoughts. As a fed employee we do not have rights like most unions. At least from what I have seen they are pretty toothless. I am not a member but I am represented by them. I have gone to them twice in 20 years because of stupid stuff and when you get a new boss every 18-24 months that is .mil not all of them have a clue.

Since I have not seen a pay raise in over 4 years and they have no power over the costs of things there is not a lot they can do at least from where I sit.

During the Bush years we started going to NSPS and a pay for performance system. It was costing them much more than they thought and was converted back to the GS system. The people that had been converted made out like bandits even after the switch back. I am sure that there are agency's where many are paid more than they are worth but most of the DOD is not like that.

In the technical fields we are losing many good people because the outside world progresses much faster and there is nothing the union can do. Just some thoughts from my side of the fence. [gohome]

[U81I812]

FF vote for and fund democrats to ensure the government will keep extorting money from the general public to pay for their million dollar retirement packages and 22k a year health care for life deal. For them this is a higher priority than firearms and freedom.

[encorehunter]

FF vote for and fund democrats to ensure the government will keep extorting money from the general public to pay for their million dollar retirement packages and 22k a year health care for life deal. For them this is a higher priority than firearms and freedom.

Apparently I am working in the wrong place. At 36k a year working 2920 hours (we work a 56 hour work week) a year vs 2180 hours for a 40 hour week person, and now I will be paying 27% instead of 20% of my health insurance and no raise in the last 8 years, I am missing out. We haven't even had a cost of living increase. As for the million dollar retirement, I will have to work another 70 years to get that.
There ares some of us who don't vote with the majority, so please don't lump us all into one.

Maybe we should all just go volunteer. That would save the taxpayers a lot of money. When your insurance rate triples due to a higher ISO rating, please don't be crying. That is what you are asking for.

[jerrymrc]

Apparently I am working in the wrong place. At 36k a year working 2920 hours (we work a 56 hour work week) a year vs 2180 hours for a 40 hour week person, and now I will be paying 27% instead of 20% of my health insurance and no raise in the last 8 years, I am missing out. We haven't even had a cost of living increase. As for the million dollar retirement, I will have to work another 70 years to get that.
There ares some of us who don't vote with the majority, so please don't lump us all into one.

Maybe we should all just go volunteer. That would save the taxpayers a lot of money. When your insurance rate triples due to a higher ISO rating, please don't be crying. That is what you are asking for.

We pay 30% on ours so I know how ya feel. Last raise was jan 2010. I know there are many that believe that if you are in a union no matter how or why then one makes double what a non-union job is and that there is this great free healthcare and incredible retirement.

As seen by some of the headlines in the news over the last few years I can understand this but just as we have seen in the past not everyone is in that boat. Wish I was....

I do hope that after doing 38 years in my current job that the offers I have had will allow me to work a couple of years at a non-union, non-government job so I can make close to double what I do now. [Flower]

[Aloha_Shooter]

I make a distinction between firefighters and their unions just like I do for policemen and teachers and others. Firefighters did a bang-up job the past two summers that we've been plagued with horrendous wildfires. I'm not going to blame them all because their corrupt union bosses have fallen in line with the Communist liberal Obamabots even with the one idiot who was writing letters to the Colorado Springs Gazette in favor of tax increases and virtually threatening to not do his job. Most policemen I knew were against the new gun laws (state troopers are a whole different breed).

IMO, firefighters and policemen are the first victims of their unions just like Italian-Americans were often the first victims of La Cosa Nostra.

[Milt]

For what it might be worth, even that statist creep FDR was opposed to 'public sector' labor unions...

[roberth]

I make a distinction between firefighters and their unions just like I do for policemen and teachers and others. Firefighters did a bang-up job the past two summers that we've been plagued with horrendous wildfires. I'm not going to blame them all because their corrupt union bosses have fallen in line with the Communist liberal Obamabots even with the one idiot who was writing letters to the Colorado Springs Gazette in favor of tax increases and virtually threatening to not do his job. Most policemen I knew were against the new gun laws (state troopers are a whole different breed).

IMO, firefighters and policemen are the first victims of their unions just like Italian-Americans were often the first victims of La Cosa Nostra.

Yup, when it comes time to threaten to trim city budgets or raise taxes who gets trimmed first - PD and FD that's who. Why? Because the public will scream the loudest about them and the tax increase will pass, if the city officials said they would trim welfare first they wouldn't hear nearly as much complaining and they wouldn't get their tax increase.

[Cujo0920]

Look at what's happening in Detroit and other bankrupt municipalities where the Wall Street-Federal Reserve looting syndicate is ordering its DNC errand boys to throw the unions under the bus so the banksters can accelerate their asset-stripping of what's left of the productive economy, with pensioners, savers and taxpayers left holding the bag. All those municipal labor unions who thought their payola-for-votes deal with the Democrats ensured a gold-plated retirement are suddenly realizing to their shock that they were sold a bill of goods.

[8Ring]

Look at what's happening in Detroit and other bankrupt municipalities where the Wall Street-Federal Reserve looting syndicate is ordering its DNC errand boys to throw the unions under the bus so the banksters can accelerate their asset-stripping of what's left of the productive economy, with pensioners, savers and taxpayers left holding the bag. All those municipal labor unions who thought their payola-for-votes deal with the Democrats ensured a gold-plated retirement are suddenly realizing to their shock that they were sold a bill of goods.

Detroit and the "other bankrupt municipalites" have a long track record of fiscal irresponsibility, fed by among other things, bloated union contracts, excessive pension benefits, anti-business climates, and general political corruption. Add in a declining industrial base, high crime, terrible schools, a shrinking tax base, and, in some cases, increased spending based on a belief that the real estate bubble would never burst. Then leaven the mix with a general recession and you have the recipe for disaster. Do not blame those who lent money to finance these efforts. Many legitimate investors, including individuals and pension funds, bought bonds and other debt from these government entities and they are entitled to a some return on their investments. (Unless you believe that those who are fiscally stupid should be excused from paying their debts.) That said, municipal bondholders, like almost everyone else, will end up taking a "haircut" from the bankruptcy courts when all is said and done. Trying to screw investors will simply raise borrowing costs in the future.

But the folks who lent the money did not cause Detroit to become a largely abandoned economic and moral dump. There are those, including unionized public employees, who view government as a pinata that will rain goodies on political favorites regardless of the ultimate costs. This class is largely to blame and now its members will have to live with the consequences of those decisions.

Hopefully these bankruptcies will have a salutory effect and warn other cities of the dangers of profligate fiscal ways.

[cstone]

You could replace "Detroit" in your post with "the United States." When the interest rate on borrowed money goes up, the only resort left for the federal government will be increased taxes and more printing of useless currency. That should be great for business. [Sarcasm2]

[Zundfolge]

We had an opportunity to make Colorado a Right to Work state back in 2008 (http://ballotpedia.org/Colorado_Right_to_Work_Initiative,_Amendment_47_%2 82008%29), but the low information voters bought the lies told in the ads by the union pukes about Amendment 47 so Colorado is still one of those states where you could find yourself in a forced unionization situation ... which may be the case for Firefighters so sometimes its hard to be hard on the individual firefighters as they have no say in it. Their checks are raided by the union and that money stolen to use against their interests.

I'd starve to death before I took a union job.


American labor unions; Karl Marx last laugh.

[Irving]

Do not blame those who lent money to finance these efforts. Many legitimate investors, including individuals and pension funds, bought bonds and other debt from these government entities and they are entitled to a some return on their investments. (Unless you believe that those who are fiscally stupid should be excused from paying their debts.)

What? No they aren't.

[cstone]

Politicians often write checks that tax payers can't or shouldn't be expected to cover.

It is oh so easy to spend other people's money.

Every politician who makes a statement that they need additional revenue to cover necessary expenses, should first begin by donating their entire salary to the government. After all, if it is so important, put your money where your mouth is; or lead by example.

[Aloha_Shooter]

Investors aren't entitled to a return on their investments but they are entitled to not have the government steal funds that would otherwise have been a return on a good investment, e.g., enabling MF Global steal depositor assets to pay back their loans from JP Morgan or to pay off union thugs. Anyone who bought bonds in Detroit should have viewed them as junk bonds with the same (or worse) risk of default versus payoff as other junk bonds.

[8Ring]

Investors aren't entitled to a return on their investments but they are entitled to not have the government steal funds that would otherwise have been a return on a good investment, e.g., enabling MF Global steal depositor assets to pay back their loans from JP Morgan or to pay off union thugs. Anyone who bought bonds in Detroit should have viewed them as junk bonds with the same (or worse) risk of default versus payoff as other junk bonds.

Hello:

You make some good points. I don't know how Detroit bonds (or other bankrupt cities' bonds) were rated before the bankruptcy. And it is true that many of the fiscal problems of Detroit (and maybe some other bankrupt cities) should have been public knowledge when the bonds were offered. If there was fraud or concealment of the true financial condition by city officials or if the bond underwriters swept the fiscal problems under the rug, they should all go to jail. I agree the bondholder will have to take a loss as must everyone else involved in this sorry mess. Just don't place all the blame on the bondholders.

Chris

[Aloha_Shooter]

In this case, I think anyone buying Detroit city bonds within the last 10 years was either delusional or betting on green (in roulette). It didn't take much research or effort to realize the city finances were messed up beyond recovery.

[Flatline]

I just want to put out there that not all firefighters support the IAFF, in fact some loath them including myself. They won't have anything to do with our department since we are mixed paid and volunteer. One of our volunteer's dad died of fire related lung cancer 6 years after retirement (as a career firefighter), the IAFF wouldn't put his name on the wall because they limit to 5 years after retirement (the guys dad was retired medically from the department for the same problem that he ended up dieing from).

The IAFF seems to refuse to acknowledge that not all municipalities can afford to have no volunteers, let alone mixed career and volunteer. They do not support firefighters, they support their members which are NOT all firefighters.

[Joe_K]

Folks who get a union job AND join/ pay dues/ participate, then throw up thier hands and say "It aint me bud!" When the Union supports gun grabbers, or other anti freedom causes, they are simply part of the problem. If folks simply chose not to work for a union company how many union jobs would there really be? Cut off the funds, the unions go away. For those suggesting that all firefighters volunteer and refuse pay is the only alternative to the status qou then thay sheds some light on how firmly entrenched the current system is in everyones mind.

[cstone]

Folks who get a union job AND join/ pay dues/ participate, then throw up thier hands and say "It aint me bud!" When the Union supports gun grabbers, or other anti freedom causes, they are simply part of the problem. If folks simply chose not to work for a union company how many union jobs would there really be? Cut off the funds, the unions go away. For those suggesting that all firefighters volunteer and refuse pay is the only alternative to the status qou then thay sheds some light on how firmly entrenched the current system is in everyones mind.

But shouldn't we start by requiring the government (local, state, and federal) doesn't favor union contracts? Try to get a non-union job in some areas of the country. IMO, right-to-work is a good start. Barring public sector unions would be a big win for citizens everywhere.

[Aloha_Shooter]

MOLON LABE, you forget that some states or municipalities have forced unionism. In others, it's all but legally forced. In fact, this is why Democrats fight Right-to-Work legislation so hard -- it threatens one of their major funding sources. It's also why they wanted card checks and fought against secret ballots when workers vote for/against forming a union.

[Joe_K]

This is true. So until no one will take a union job the unions are here to stay. Even in right to work states. I do agree though that right to work is a good way to assist in that endeavor but its the same with the .gov entitlement and wellfare programs. We can provide private sector alternatives, or try and convince folks to not accept them or sign up for them. In all honesty it probably wont work.


Sent from my PRC 117A in my Batmobile disguised as a sedan.