View Full Version : Private party sales question
If this question has been posted here before, I do apologize, I tried the search feature but did not find. Simple question, its been a while since I bought from private party. Last one I did was in the good ol days where you just show ID and BS in the parking lot. My question is as follows:
1) You find a firearm you would like to buy off Colorado Armslist or something similar, where do you go from there? I know a FFL, but does that mean somewhere like Gander mountain
2) What do they do at the FFL? Is it just a $10.00 background check ( like when you buy from them )?
Easy questions for the knowledgeable fine folks on here.
You have to go to an FFL that is willing to do private transfers, fill out all the same paperwork as if you were buying from their stock and pay the $10 state tax on transfers plus whatever the FFL charges. That can be anywhere from $15-50. Once you pass the BGC you give the money to the seller and take possession of the firearm.
Wow! Didn't know it can cost that much just to transfer, I am not trying to complain but that's ridiculous!
SideShow Bob
11-30-2013, 11:28
Some places won't let you pass the cash inside their facility, you just need to go out to your car to exchange cash and gun.
Thanks for the info guys. Anyone bought from Armslist? I haven't yet...
lpgasman
11-30-2013, 11:59
Wow! Didn't know it can cost that much just to transfer, I am not trying to complain but that's ridiculous!
Ark tactical does them for 20.00+10.00 for the gov, to members. Noah is the man!
Thanks for the info guys. Anyone bought from Armslist? I haven't yet...
I have....
Bad experience?
It's not too bad. Just depends on the person you deal with on there.
Got ya, and watch the prices I noticed.
Busta Prima
11-30-2013, 13:33
Yeah this new law had affected the value of used guns for sure. More cost to the buyer and less money for the seller. I started to wonder about loopholes. I'm sure this was covered in other threads and I haven't searched but I've wondered about trades . . . I'm sure they worded it well enough to cover that but when you think about a trade (the guy already has a working gun so what's the problem?) what is the need for a BGC? Then I wondered about long term rentals or leases. Hmmm . . . instead of selling you my Glock 20 lets sign a 110 year lease agreement (with a clause where it expires in 109 years). I can't say I'm completely against a BCG but they could have done this SO much better. Why can't I call the CBI myself, pay them their stupid $10, give them the DL info from my buyer and be done. Why hassle an FFL and create a 4473 that sits in a file cabinet anyway.
spqrzilla
11-30-2013, 14:02
The law has provisions to forbid any long term "loans" or "leases" short of transfering full title.
[QUOTE=Busta Prima;1424119]Yeah this new law had affected the value of used guns for sure. More cost to the buyer and less money for the seller. I started to wonder about loopholes. I'm sure this was covered in other threads and I haven't searched but I've wondered about trades . . . I'm sure they worded it well enough to cover that but when you think about a trade (the guy already has a working gun so what's the problem?) what is the need for a BGC? Then I wondered about long term rentals or leases. Hmmm . . . instead of selling you my Glock 20 lets sign a 110 year lease agreement (with a clause where it expires in 109 years). I can't say I'm completely against a BCG but they could have done this SO much better. Why can't I call the CBI myself, pay them their stupid $10, give them the DL info from my buyer and be done. Why hassle an FFL and create a 4473 that sits in a file cabinet anyway.[/QU
I wondered about that stuff too. Its really ridiculous, I had a good deal on a Gen 3 G17 but after speaking to the gentleman selling it, I was informed that I was only buying the gun. No mags due to that law. I dont even know if I could get 15 round mags? I know you can on a G19, but that dont help the good ol G17....
StagLefty
11-30-2013, 14:46
Got ya, and watch the prices I noticed.
Check at Bowers. They had one a few weeks ago.
Thanks Stag! Ill have a look
You have to go to an FFL that is willing to do private transfers, fill out all the same paperwork as if you were buying from their stock and pay the $10 state tax on transfers plus whatever the FFL charges. That can be anywhere from $15-50. Once you pass the BGC you give the money to the seller and take possession of the firearm.
Dave,
The law is very specific as to what an FFL holder can charge to facilitate the sale between private individuals. They can charge $10 for the CBI background check fee and up to another $10 for facilitating the transfer. Charging anything above $20 for person to person transfers is not allowed under the current Colorado law (this is not to say that it is not being done).
C.R.S. § 18-12-112(2)(d) - A licensed gun dealer may charge a fee for services rendered pursuant to this section, which fee shall not exceed ten dollars.
Jeffrey Lebowski
11-30-2013, 17:26
I wondered about that stuff too. Its really ridiculous, I had a good deal on a Gen 3 G17 but after speaking to the gentleman selling it, I was informed that I was only buying the gun. No mags due to that law. I dont even know if I could get 15 round mags? I know you can on a G19, but that dont help the good ol G17....
You'll be buying CA style 10s for now if you get that G17 today.
I'd really like another one, I did stock up on mags, but I don't *need* it and so I'll wait to see the outcome of this lawsuit.
In the meantime, you can think about that G19, or G20, or G22….
hurley842002
11-30-2013, 17:57
Dave,
The law is very specific as to what an FFL holder can charge to facilitate the sale between private individuals. They can charge $10 for the CBI background check fee and up to another $10 for facilitating the transfer. Charging anything above $20 for person to person transfers is not allowed under the current Colorado law (this is not to say that it is not being done).
C.R.S. § 18-12-112(2)(d) - A licensed gun dealer may charge a fee for services rendered pursuant to this section, which fee shall not exceed ten dollars.
Pretty sure the last two FFL 's I did private party transfers with charged $25 + $10 for CBI.
jerrymrc
11-30-2013, 17:59
You just joined and are asking to buy something. Kind of a bad thing around here. 30 days after your join date the trading post will be available to you. Please do not try and solicit any buying/selling/wanted posts outside of the TP. Thanks.
Pretty sure the last two FFL 's I did private party transfers with charged $25 + $10 for CBI.
Oh, I don't doubt you for a second.
There has been a lot of confusion about how these new laws are written but, this particular one is pretty clear when it says how much an FFL holder can charge for a P-to-P transfer. If these companies are charging more than the stipulated price, they are not following what the law says.
Busta Prima
11-30-2013, 18:15
There is a lot of confusion for sure. My friend who is an FFL said he's boycotting them because he thought he could only charge $10, period. I checked here and read where it was $10 for the transfer fee and WHATEVER the FFL wanted for the BCG fee. Now this is a THIRD interpretation. We've got to get this fixed and I don't mean in the next election.
Oh, I don't doubt you for a second.
There has been a lot of confusion about how these new laws are written but, this particular one is pretty clear when it says how much an FFL holder can charge for a P-to-P transfer. If these companies are charging more than the stipulated price, they are not following what the law says.
While I get your point, I would argue the law is anything but clear. Which portion of the $25 that hurley was charged was the "services rendered pursuant to this section", and which part was for the appointment itself, facilities improvement fee, expert labor upcharge, beverage replenishment fund, etc? It's left to the FFL to interpret, and who knows what/if there are any penalties if you get it wrong. Some choose to stick to a hard $10, some choose to ignore or dance around it, some (most?) just decided not to bother and refuse to do FTF transfers.
Ugh, I thought I was over this stupid crap.
(d) A LICENSED GUN DEALER MAY CHARGE A FEE FOR SERVICES
RENDERED PURSUANT TO THIS SECTION, WHICH FEE SHALL NOT EXCEED TEN
DOLLARS.
You'll be buying CA style 10s for now if you get that G17 today.
I'd really like another one, I did stock up on mags, but I don't *need* it and so I'll wait to see the outcome of this lawsuit.
In the meantime, you can think about that G19, or G20, or G22….
Good point, a G19 wouldn't hurt lol
You just joined and are asking to buy something. Kind of a bad thing around here. 30 days after your join date the trading post will be available to you. Please do not try and solicit any buying/selling/wanted posts outside of the TP. Thanks.
I am a little confused?? I am not allowed to ask about buying a weaponfrom armslist and the rules on the transfer?
While I get your point, I would argue the law is anything but clear. Which portion of the $25 that hurley was charged was the "services rendered pursuant to this section", and which part was for the appointment itself, facilities improvement fee, expert labor upcharge, beverage replenishment fund, etc? It's left to the FFL to interpret, and who knows what/if there are any penalties if you get it wrong. Some choose to stick to a hard $10, some choose to ignore or dance around it, some (most?) just decided not to bother and refuse to do FTF transfers.
Ugh, I thought I was over this stupid crap.
(d) A LICENSED GUN DEALER MAY CHARGE A FEE FOR SERVICES
RENDERED PURSUANT TO THIS SECTION, WHICH FEE SHALL NOT EXCEED TEN
DOLLARS.
I absolutely understand where you are coming from. Trust me when I tell you that I do not agree with this imposition that the State of Colorado has put upon its citizens. However, all these fees that you mentioned above are... for lack of a better term, bullshit fees. The law is VERY specific (and, if you call CBI, they will be happy to explain it to you) as to how what the maximum charge is.
For Bunny -
Related link, if you haven't seen it. I'll try to look back over it and see if there's anything out of date, but I don't believe we've had any add'l guidance from ATF in a while. It's worth noting that CBI and the FBI do not always appear to be 100% in sync with how FTF transfers work.
https://www.ar-15.co/threads/110807-How-private-transfers-now-work-in-Colorado-(background-checks-FTF-transfers-etc)
For Bunny -
Related link, if you haven't seen it. I'll try to look back over it and see if there's anything out of date, but I don't believe we've had any add'l guidance from ATF in a while. It's worth noting that CBI and the FBI do not always appear to be 100% in sync with how FTF transfers work.
https://www.ar-15.co/threads/110807-How-private-transfers-now-work-in-Colorado-(background-checks-FTF-transfers-etc)
Thanks Ill read through that. Hope I didnt offend anyone about buying a gun? I didnt even know there was a trading post.... I wasnt trying to "solicict a gun" I was just merely asking a question. A little confused lol
jerrymrc
11-30-2013, 19:00
I am a little confused?? I am not allowed to ask about buying a weaponfrom armslist and the rules on the transfer?
You stated in your post "I am looking to buy a XXX" You can ask about armslist and FFL's all day long but your post became a WTB ad at that point. By doing that anyone that has XXX for sale will PM you and the whole reason for the couple of rules we do have just went out the window. Members are not helping because they either A want to sell you something or B just want to see how far this will go before it gets shit canned because they know the rules.
You stated in your post "I am looking to buy a XXX" You can ask about armslist and FFL's all day long but your post became a WTB ad at that point. By doing that anyone that has XXX for sale will PM you and the whole reason for the couple of rules we do have just went out the window. Members are not helping because they either A want to sell you something or B just want to see how far this will go before it gets shit canned because they know the rules.
OK, I apologize, I swear I wasnt trying to do anything like that or go against the rules. Thank you for the information and I will choose my wording better in the future.
Thanks Ill read through that. Hope I didnt offend anyone about buying a gun? I didnt even know there was a trading post.... I wasnt trying to "solicict a gun" I was just merely asking a question. A little confused lol
Don't worry, everyone was new at one point. Welcome to the board, and have fun learning and complaining with the rest of us. :)
Thanks! Ill be here a good long while to annoy everyone lol!!
It's not you, it's us. This time....
RonMexico
11-30-2013, 22:50
Ark tactical does them for 20.00+10.00 for the gov, to members. Noah is the man!
Just did this today and I think rapid fire was $25. Honestly it suck we have to do it but it's the stupid law now. Really just a waste of time.
I have noticed for a long time now there does not appear to be anyone enforcing this new BCG law. I have never heard of a single FFL being prosecuted for breaking any portion of the BGC law. FFL's openly post the fee they charge for a person to person private party transfer that is in excess of the $10 the law specifically states. It was my understanding the reason any law has a maximum fee is to prevent businesses from dreaming up additional charges and expenses to tack on in order to protect the consumer. The wording in the law seems simple and straight forward to me.
(d) A LICENSED GUN DEALER MAY CHARGE A FEE FOR SERVICES
RENDERED PURSUANT TO THIS SECTION, WHICH FEE SHALL NOT EXCEED TEN
DOLLARS.
I have noticed for a long time now there does not appear to be anyone enforcing this new BCG law. I have never heard of a single FFL being prosecuted for breaking any portion of the BGC law. FFL's openly post the fee they charge for a person to person private party transfer that is in excess of the $10 the law specifically states. It was my understanding the reason any law has a maximum fee is to prevent businesses from dreaming up additional charges and expenses to tack on in order to protect the consumer. The wording in the law seems simple and straight forward to me.
(d) A LICENSED GUN DEALER MAY CHARGE A FEE FOR SERVICES
RENDERED PURSUANT TO THIS SECTION, WHICH FEE SHALL NOT EXCEED TEN
DOLLARS.
I was wondering if it was because there was no penalty listed for the FFL fee portion but on re-reading some FFLs may want to reconsider.
(9) (a) A PERSON WHO VIOLATES A PROVISION OF THIS SECTION COMMITS A CLASS 1 MISDEMEANOR AND SHALL BE PUNISHED IN ACCORDANCE WITH SECTION 18-1.3-501. THE PERSON SHALL ALSO BE PROHIBITED FROM POSSESSING A FIREARM FOR TWO YEARS, BEGINNING ON THE DATE OF HIS OR HER CONVICTION.
This applies to the entire added section 18-12-112.
The fee maximum is set in 18-12-112.II.d so would be punishable by removal of the right to possess firearms for two years. That could be very bad for a shop if someday an unfriendly spiteful administration got in power and decided to enforce the law to the letter.
I'm thinkin if this $10 max gets pushed to hard we won't have ANY FFL's willing to do private transfers, not worth their time.
Hmm. Maybe that's what the idea was behind this provision.
It is the exact wording used in the Gun Show BGC law that was signed in 2001 and the FFL's at the gun show seem to be able to do it for $10 plus the CBI fee of $10. I doubt they would be doing it if they didn't make some money.
I wonder - other than some of the larger brick-and-mortar shops, how many FFLs out there are actually handling FTF transfers to the public for only $10?
(I'm not counting those that will take care of board members or personal friends, of course, or those that collect extra fees in the parking lot or as added service charges)
$10 FFL + $10 to CBI only.
Should be able to sell 15+ round mags at the FFLs that charge more than the $10 for private transfers. When they say, "We can't do that, it's against the law," you can pull out a copy of the law, with the important part high lighted, and ask what the difference is between breaking that law, and the mag law.
jerrymrc
12-01-2013, 08:14
I'm thinkin if this $10 max gets pushed to hard we won't have ANY FFL's willing to do private transfers, not worth their time.
Hmm. Maybe that's what the idea was behind this provision.
We have talked about this before. There were a limited number of FFL's that were doing transfers before the new law and that number decreased for PP transactions. I for one am grateful for the few that are willing to do this.
I think many know how this could turn out if everyone that dislikes paying the fee starts waving paper at an FFL and threatening them. They will just stop doing it. Like many things I have always said that if you do not like the price do it yourself. [Flower]
Most of the ones doing it are little guys and gun people. None of the big holders give a rats ass about you or what you want to sell. Nowhere in that law does it say they have to do a transfer. Just a thought.
buckshotbarlow
12-01-2013, 09:11
Most of the ones doing it are little guys and gun people. None of the big holders give a rats ass about you or what you want to sell. Nowhere in that law does it say they have to do a transfer.
Thank you for saying this, I couldn't agree with you more....
hurley842002
12-01-2013, 09:49
We have talked about this before. There were a limited number of FFL's that were doing transfers before the new law and that number decreased for PP transactions. I for one am grateful for the few that are willing to do this.
I think many know how this could turn out if everyone that dislikes paying the fee starts waving paper at an FFL and threatening them. They will just stop doing it. Like many things I have always said that if you do not like the price do it yourself. [Flower]
Most of the ones doing it are little guys and gun people. None of the big holders give a rats ass about you or what you want to sell. Nowhere in that law does it say they have to do a transfer. Just a thought.
This about sums it up...
As much as I'd rather pay $10 than $25, I can't see too many FFL's doing PP transfers for $10. So when we start "throwing the law around" over fifteen bucks, and they stop doing them, then what?
Busta Prima
12-01-2013, 10:50
This about sums it up...
As much as I'd rather pay $10 than $25, I can't see too many FFL's doing PP transfers for $10. So when we start "throwing the law around" over fifteen bucks, and they stop doing them, then what?
I agree. What kind of person are you if you stand behind a bad law that you don't like because a small piece of it might benefit you. I've always said we are our own worst enemies (that goes for just about everything, not just this).
From now on just sell guns to your friends or people you trust. Just be sure to do it prior to 7/1/13 ;)
This about sums it up...
As much as I'd rather pay $10 than $25, I can't see too many FFL's doing PP transfers for $10. So when we start "throwing the law around" over fifteen bucks, and they stop doing them, then what?
Then enough complaints reach legislators, either directly or indirectly by losing elections, that they pass another law forcing FFLs to perform the transfers.
kidicarus13
12-01-2013, 10:55
This about sums it up...
As much as I'd rather pay $10 than $25, I can't see too many FFL's doing PP transfers for $10. So when we start "throwing the law around" over fifteen bucks, and they stop doing them, then what?
I suspect that if FFL's are no longer willing to do transfers than people will do like prior to July 1. Makes sense to me.
jerrymrc
12-01-2013, 12:00
Then enough complaints reach legislators, either directly or indirectly by losing elections, that they pass another law forcing FFLs to perform the transfers.
Since we are one of the only BCG for PP I take it to mean state legislators. So a state is going to pass a law that mandates local compliance of a federal entity? I see that working out well. [beatdeadhorse]
About a month back I spoke to one fellow who wanted to comply with the new law and who claimed he telephoned every sporting goods store close to his home to ask about private party sales, and was told they don't do those. I've even heard that a couple of gun stores would only agree to handle the transaction if the gun was entered into their inventory and sold on consignment for a percentage. It seems there's only about a dozen FFLs in the state who are doing these for the general public, they aren't advertising it, and some of those are by appointment only.
I don't believe this law was intended to be followed. I believe it was intended solely to criminalize collectors, hunters, and target shooters for doing trades. Even NY, which has some of the strictest gun laws in the country, does not require a background check for trades or sales of traditional hunting rifles, shotguns, and 22s.
Since we are one of the only BCG for PP I take it to mean state legislators. So a state is going to pass a law that mandates local compliance of a federal entity? I see that working out well. [beatdeadhorse]
Dead horse for sure :)
Want a business license in this state, comply with the laws of the state. Pretty easy to force if it comes to that. The other option is to remove the fee limitation but that could be construed as a positive for the gun industry.
Busta Prima
12-01-2013, 12:44
The easiest sell would be to take the FFLs out of the loop and let a private seller contact the CBI directly. The $10 fee legitimizes that contact especially if they require a traceable payment method. You give the DL of the buyer to them, they run it and give an approval or denial and you're done. They know who called, they know who got the gun and all aspects of the law should be satisfied. Of course I'd rather see everything they passed reversed but that rarely happens.
It seems to me on two issues brought up that we are not helping our cause.
1. "We should just shut up and let FFL's break the law so we a least have somebody to do BGC's". My response: Sounds like a lot of people are willing to have FFL's break the law so that we can comply with it.
2. "How can Colorado force a federally controlled FFL to do BGC's"? My response: Sounds a lot like the existing law requiring an FFL to do a state mandated BGC.
Without any place to do private transfers maybe a judge tells the state to go back and change the law. And if they have to that I think the recalls could make that go differently.
They should have an exception for CCW permit holders. If you have a valid and unrevoked CCW, you obviously can pass a background check.
They should permit private parties to contact CBI directly. Right now, as long as you have the legal name, DOB, and valid cause, anyone can get anyone else's complete Colorado arrest record from CBI for a $10 fee charged to your credit card. You can even do it on your smart phone at the time of sale, write up a bill of sale and print out the CBI report when you get home as proof it was done.
They should have an exception for CCW permit holders. If you have a valid and unrevoked CCW, you obviously can pass a background check.
They should permit private parties to contact CBI directly. Right now, as long as you have the legal name, DOB, and valid cause, anyone can get anyone else's complete Colorado arrest record from CBI for a $10 fee charged to your credit card. You can even do it on your smart phone at the time of sale, write up a bill of sale and print out the CBI report when you get home as proof it was done.
Yep, lets turn a CCW into a gun license.. not.
There are plenty of ways to do it but the way that was in place a year ago seemed to be working pretty well.
spqrzilla
12-01-2013, 20:21
2. How can Colorado force a federally controlled FFL to do BGC's? Sounds a lot like the existing law requiring an FFL to do a state mandated BGC.
Without any place to do private transfers maybe a judge tells the state to go back and change the law. And if they have to that I think the recalls could make that go differently.
Colorado does it by passing a law. FFL's are not Federal officers. They are subject to state law.
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