Flags at half staff for Nelson Mandela [Archive] - Colorado AR-15 Shooters Club Discussion Forums

battle_sight_zero

12-06-2013, 09:32

Perhaps I am being a prick and I am sure my rant might not be appreciated by some. I just dont understand why we are putting our flags at half mast for a Foreigner. For work I do track the flag orders every day for work for the last 20 years, and quite frankly the number of times are flags are in half mast has increased dramatically in the last 5 years. I understand the honoring of special Americans but foreigners I just dont get it. So today I looked up the most recent GI to be killed in Afghanistan, a Staff Sgt. ALEX VIOLA. From what I can read he was extraordinary man. In my mind these flags should be at half mast to honor Sgt Viola and the others who have died in service of our country. In closing thank you to all of you who serve or have served our country.

Story about Sgt. Viola http://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/Keller-Soldier-Killed-in-Afghanistan-232397751.html

generalmeow

12-06-2013, 09:42

I completely agree, and if I see any flags at half staff today I will think about Sgt. Viola. There shouldn't be a single American who would honor Nelson Mandela before Alex Viola.

StagLefty

12-06-2013, 10:20

^ this.

MarkCO

12-06-2013, 10:21

i dont want my response viewed as anti anyone. BUT, there is no way in hell our flag should be half mast for anyone but an American. period end of story. I dont give a shit if its the Queen of England.

DITTO

buffalobo

12-06-2013, 10:21

PugnacAutMortem

12-06-2013, 10:22

All I will say is if Whitney Houston dying from an OD gets the flags at half staff...then I think Nelson Mandela deserves to have the flags at half staff as well.

Singlestack

12-06-2013, 10:34

[fail]

So what exactly did Whitney Houston do for her country? She was nothing more than an entertainer. Movie stars/musicians deserve nothing better or worse than average US citizens - because thats what they are. Our soldiers that give their lives for the US are on a different, and in my opinion, higher plane in terms of flag recognition than the rest of us. Ditto on Mandela not being an American. This is how Liberals co-opt a patriotic recognition for their own multicultural purposes.

MarkCO

12-06-2013, 10:36

All I will say is if Whitney Houston dying from an OD gets the flags at half staff...then I think Nelson Mandela deserves to have the flags at half staff as well.

Nope! Two wrongs don't make a right. Someone getting away with something does not now make that okay. It is that kind of thinking that got us some of the mess we are now it. NO THANKS!

sniper7

12-06-2013, 10:37

I don't feel it should be at half staff.

blacklabel

12-06-2013, 10:38

rondog

12-06-2013, 10:46

Isn't there established rules for the flag regarding stuff like this?

PugnacAutMortem

12-06-2013, 10:48

Nope! Two wrongs don't make a right. Someone getting away with something does not now make that okay. It is that kind of thinking that got us some of the mess we are now it. NO THANKS!

What in the actual fuck are you talking about? "That kind of thinking"? You mean the idea that if they are going to lower the flags for a washed up druggie singer then they damn sure better do it for Nelson freaking Mandela? How does that line of thinking get "us" into this "mess"?

flogger

12-06-2013, 10:53

Isn't there established rules for the flag regarding stuff like this?

It looks like Eisenhower created the standards in the '50s for flying the flag at half staff. Foreign dignitaries are included in the list of people that can be honored but the President can declare it for anyone or any reason. I don't agree with it in this case.

whitbaby

12-06-2013, 10:59

Isn't there established rules for the flag regarding stuff like this?

'Rules' are not for Obama. He does whatever he damn well feels like...screw the Constitution, the laws are for everyone else.
Kings don't recognize no steenkin' laws, he's scum.
You can bet he'll be at Mandela's services in S. Africa with all the pomp and posturing he can manage. Probably take the Black Congressional Caucus with him and sneer while flying over Kenya.
He didn't go to Thatcher's services, didn't even have the decency to send someone on behalf of U.S., even though some past Republican staffers went on their own.

rondog

12-06-2013, 11:08

'Rules' are not for Obama. He does whatever he damn well feels like...screw the Constitution, the laws are for everyone else.
Kings don't recognize no steenkin' laws, he's scum.
You can bet he'll be at Mandela's services in S. Africa with all the pomp and posturing he can manage. Probably take the Black Congressional Caucus with him and sneer while flying over Kenya.
He didn't go to Thatcher's services, didn't even have the decency to send someone on behalf of U.S., even though some past Republican staffers went on their own.

Oh yeah, they're packing Air Force One (and Two) for the trip as we speak, no doubt. And I'd bet Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton already have seat assignments.

Zundfolge

12-06-2013, 11:11

Are we sure flags are being flown at half staff for Mandela?

I heard on the radio that Hick is ordering flags flown at half staff on Saturday for Pearl Harbor, not Mandela.

battle_sight_zero

12-06-2013, 11:11

It looks like Eisenhower created the standards in the '50s for flying the flag at half staff. Foreign dignitaries are included in the list of people that can be honored but the President can declare it for anyone or any reason. I don't agree with it in this case.

Thank you for research. I guess if you are really good at being a Communist and devising execution methods aka burning tire necklaces,upon your death you need to be honored. This was a post from another forum.

However as was pointed out to me this man was doing this to rid his homeland from invaders.

I guess I better do my research to understand this hoopla.

PugnacAutMortem

12-06-2013, 11:15

It looks like Eisenhower created the standards in the '50s for flying the flag at half staff. Foreign dignitaries are included in the list of people that can be honored but the President can declare it for anyone or any reason. I don't agree with it in this case.

So if foreign dignitaries are included on the list, then what is your list of foreign dignitaries that are ahead of a Nelson Mandela? Quite frankly he should be at the top of everyone's list as far as non-Americans who should be honored with the flag at half staff.

MarkCO

12-06-2013, 11:22

What in the actual fuck are you talking about? "That kind of thinking"? You mean the idea that if they are going to lower the flags for a washed up druggie singer then they damn sure better do it for Nelson freaking Mandela? How does that line of thinking get "us" into this "mess"?

A little touchy are we? I made no mention in any sexual context, so I don't know where you are headed, or maybe the use of the written word is just not your thing.

Anyway, using the fact that flags were flown at half mast for Whitney Houston in NO WAY validates it being flown at half mast for any other person, better or worse. The point is you have NO basis for your assertion other than the comparison of two people. That is THE problem with most Americans. If their hand gets caught in the cookie jar, they want to whine that "Johnny got a cookie and he did not get in trouble." Part and parcel of values clarification drivel that has been forced down Americans in public schools since the 1970s.

If something is right, then it is right. If it is wrong, it is wrong. The mere fact that you even brought Whitney Houston into your comments about Mandela illustrate a fundamental lack of basis in your judgement. I realize that this will probably make you more angered, but this kind of lateral judgement is one of the great tools of the liberal left.

kidicarus13

12-06-2013, 11:28

Are we sure flags are being flown at half staff for Mandela?

I heard on the radio that Hick is ordering flags flown at half staff on Saturday for Pearl Harbor, not Mandela.

I see flags at half mast more than I do at full staff and only know about 1/3 of the time who or what it is for. It has become overused and diluted.

PugnacAutMortem

12-06-2013, 11:36

A little touchy are we? I made no mention in any sexual context, so I don't know where you are headed, or maybe the use of the written word is just not your thing.

Anyway, using the fact that flags were flown at half mast for Whitney Houston in NO WAY validates it being flown at half mast for any other person, better or worse. The point is you have NO basis for your assertion other than the comparison of two people. That is THE problem with most Americans. If their hand gets caught in the cookie jar, they want to whine that "Johnny got a cookie and he did not get in trouble." Part and parcel of values clarification drivel that has been forced down Americans in public schools since the 1970s.

If something is right, then it is right. If it is wrong, it is wrong. The mere fact that you even brought Whitney Houston into your comments about Mandela illustrate a fundamental lack of basis in your judgement. I realize that this will probably make you more angered, but this kind of lateral judgement is one of the great tools of the liberal left.

Can the condescension skippy. It is unbecoming of you.

I do find it entertaining how you can extrapolate my short comment into the core problem of American society with one fell swoop. Quite the jump, even with all of your rationalizing.

muddywings

12-06-2013, 12:00

Are we sure flags are being flown at half staff for Mandela?

I heard on the radio that Hick is ordering flags flown at half staff on Saturday for Pearl Harbor, not Mandela.

per work (DoD) email:

At the direction of the President of the United States, the flags have been lowered effective immediately until sunset, 9 Dec 13, for the passing of Nelson Mandela.

MarkCO

12-06-2013, 12:57

Deleted

Ah Pook

12-06-2013, 13:00

Flying the American Flag at Half Staff

When should the flag be flown at half-staff? An easy way to remember when to fly the United States flag at half-staff is to consider when the whole nation is in mourning. These periods of mourning are proclaimed either by the president of the United States, for national remembrance, or the governor of a state or territory, for local remembrance, in the event of a death of a member or former member of the federal, state or territorial government or judiciary. The heads of departments and agencies of the federal government may also order that the flag be flown at half-staff on buildings, grounds and naval vessels under their jurisdiction.

On Memorial Day the flag should be flown at half-staff from sunrise until noon only, then raised briskly to the top of the staff until sunset, in honor of the nation’s battle heroes.

In the early days of our country, no regulations existed for flying the flag at half-staff and, as a result, there were many conflicting policies. But on March 1, 1954, President Dwight Eisenhower issued a proclamation on the proper times.

The flag should fly at half-staff for 30 days at all federal buildings, grounds, and naval vessels throughout the United States and its territories and possessions after the death of the president or a former president. It is to fly 10 days at half-staff after the death of the vice president, the chief justice or a retired chief justice of the United States Supreme Court, or the speaker of the House of Representatives. For an associate justice of the Supreme Court, a member of the Cabinet, a former vice president, the president pro tempore of the Senate, the majority leader of the Senate, the minority leader of the Senate, the majority leader of the House of Representatives, or the minority leader of the House of Representatives the flag is to be displayed at half-staff from the day of death until interment.

The flag is to be flown at half-staff at all federal buildings, grounds and naval vessels in the Washington, D.C., area on the day and day after the death of a United States senator, representative, territorial delegate, or the resident commissioner from the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico. It should also be flown at half-staff on all federal facilities in the state, congressional district,

territory, or commonwealth of these officials.

Upon the death of the governor of a state, territory or possession, the flag should be flown at half-staff on all federal facilities in that governor’s state, territory or possession from the day of death until interment.

The president may order the flag to be flown at half-staff to mark the death of other officials, former officials, or foreign dignitaries. In addition to these occasions, the president may order half-staff display of the flag after other tragic events.

The flag should be briskly run up to the top of the staff before being lowered slowly to

the half-staff position

davsel

12-06-2013, 13:01

So if foreign dignitaries are included on the list, then what is your list of foreign dignitaries that are ahead of a Nelson Mandela? Quite frankly he should be at the top of everyone's list as far as non-Americans who should be honored with the flag at half staff.

And why is that? (Mandella at the top)

UrbanWolf

12-06-2013, 13:21

UrbanWolf

12-06-2013, 13:22

I don't recall flag half staff when Benghazi happened, or did I not pay attention?

RblDiver

12-06-2013, 13:23

I dont give a shit if its the Queen of England.

Well, duh, we wouldn't want to honor someone who doesn't exist! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQJJjcrwXQE

sniper7

12-06-2013, 13:34

I Will say, since the guy was on the terrorist watch list until 2008 that he should not get the flag at half staff.

Great-Kazoo

12-06-2013, 13:39

cstone

12-06-2013, 14:04

As long as the US flag is flying, and no other flag is above it, it doesn't matter where it is on the pole. It is my flag.

PugnacAutMortem

12-06-2013, 14:19

Who the hell would care if a politician died?

Just shooting from the hip...friends and family?

I really...REALLY hope that I don't ever end up like some of you guys on here...

Ronin13

12-06-2013, 14:35

PugnacAutMortem

12-06-2013, 14:39

They shouldn't have flown at half staff for Houston- she wasn't even that good of a singer... But in Obama's America... [Bang]

OP, you're not being a prick- I agree with your rant 100%.

Oh I'm not arguing that they should have flown it at half staff for her, just the opposite actually. BUT if that is where this administration wants to set the bar then Mandela clears it easily. Honestly like Kidicarus said earlier, lowering the flag means nothing anymore. The bar is set so low that it's not even an honor anymore, it's more of an acknowledgement of existence.

Colorado_Outback

12-06-2013, 14:41

I really...REALLY hope that I don't ever end up like some of you guys on here...

Keep hoping lol.
Just be careful not to fall off your pedestal, looks like a long way down from here.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

PugnacAutMortem

12-06-2013, 14:46

so you are saying that politicians arent worthless?

everything fucked up in this country is their fault. everything. 545 people (at the federal level).

and are you saying that we Americans should be forced to lower our flag so the 3 friends and family of some scumbag politician can feel good?

6700 Americans die each day. Each with friends and family. Each of them are probably not one tenth as scummy as a politician. I know of many people who have died who are better people than some celebrity, politician or 3rd world leader, and they didnt have the flag lowered for them.

Nobody said anything about forcing the flag to be flown at half staff.

I also disagree with your premise that every single politician is a scumbag to the core. I would actually love to discuss what your solution would be to the issue (because your premise effectively eliminates all candidates for federal office from here on out), but that is neither here nor there.I definitely think the system is broken, but it's not 100% because of the politicians. There's a TON of mitigating factors that all add up into a system where regular Americans can't win. It doesn't matter if the players are cheating if the game is rigged for the house to win every time.

PugnacAutMortem

12-06-2013, 14:48

Keep hoping lol.
Just be careful not to fall off your pedestal, looks like a long way down from here.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

No pedestal here...just don't ever want to look upon another human being that I've never met/talked to/seen/heard or any other ways of interacting as a complete scumbag.

Ronin13

12-06-2013, 14:57

Oh I'm not arguing that they should have flown it at half staff for her, just the opposite actually. BUT if that is where this administration wants to set the bar then Mandela clears it easily. Honestly like Kidicarus said earlier, lowering the flag means nothing anymore. The bar is set so low that it's not even an honor anymore, it's more of an acknowledgement of existence.
This is a very sad truth these days. Few appreciate given honors anymore anyway. Like for my dad's retirement from the fire department, I presented him with a folded flag that had been flown at Fort Drum, NY while I was stationed there and it seemed like a great gift. He almost cried from how honored he felt. But then I tell that story and some look at me quizzically as if it's a big deal. Anyone else getting dizzy circling this drain?

whitbaby

12-06-2013, 15:03

I don't recall flag half staff when Benghazi happened, or did I not pay attention?

...or Mogadishu...

davsel

12-06-2013, 15:36

I don't recall flag half staff when Benghazi happened, or did I not pay attention?

The flag was flown at half staff for Benghazi: http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2012/09/12/presidential-proclamation-honoring-victims-attack-benghazi-libya

Here is a link with all the half staff info you may every want. You can even have it send you updates if you are a flag raiser: http://halfstaff.org/

The Colorado page shows that Hickenlooper is good about lowering the flag for vets and cops: http://co.halfstaff.org/

SvenJorgensen

12-06-2013, 15:52

I completely agree that the honors associated with lowering our flag to half mast have been diluted, but I do not disagree with lowering the flag for Nelson Mandela. Considering that the regulations established do allow us to pay respect to foreign dignitaries and that Nelson Mandela was a champion for human rights who is widely recognized for opposing oppression and inequality he is rightfully deserving of this honor. It may raise hairs that he is a black South African, but don't let subconscious racism or your disdain for our current black president cloud your judgement here. Without going into a history lesson, the good that Nelson Mandela has done is undeniable and, quite frankly, as a proud American who respects our own history I will respect anyone who fights for oppressed people and against injustices. White, Black, Christian, or Muslim, it doesn't matter. As Cstone said, "as long as the US flag is flying, and no other flag is above it, it doesn't matter where it is on the pole. It is my flag."

NOW, if there is any scrutiny to be had here, it should be that President Obama, in way, superseded the remembrance of Pearl Harbor by overlapping it with the remembrance of Nelson Mandela (http://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/presidential-actions/proclamations). Flags shall be flown at half mast in remembrance of Pearl Harbor only on the 7th, while Nelson Mandela receives the whole weekend. This really supports the idea that this honor is being severely diluted and is almost being used haphazardly. Why can't Nelson Mandela receive one day, and Pearl Harbor receive one day? Does the fact that Nelson Mandela gets a whole weekend mean that he is more important? There's some misinformation on this thread and a lot of getting hung up on erroneous topics (Whitney Houston (http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lz9jdez9HX1rp740do1_500.gif)), but this should be the glaring offense here.

wctriumph

12-06-2013, 16:00

No F*****g Way should it be at half staff, not for some un-American commie like Mandela.

battle_sight_zero

12-06-2013, 16:27

I completely agree that the honors associated with lowering our flag to half mast have been diluted, but I do not disagree with lowering the flag for Nelson Mandela. Considering that the regulations established do allow us to pay respect to foreign dignitaries and that Nelson Mandela was a champion for human rights who is widely recognized for opposing oppression and inequality he is rightfully deserving of this honor. It may raise hairs that someone a black South Africbelieve but don't letwarrantedconscious racism or your disdain for our current black president cloud your judgement here. Without going into a history lesson, the good that Nelson Mandela has done is undeniable and, quite frankly, as a proud American who respects our own history I will respect anyone who fights for oppressed people and against injustices. White, Black, Christian, or Muslim, it doesn't matter. As Cstone said, "as long as the US flag is flying, and no other flag is above it, it doesn't matter where it is on the pole. It is my flag."

NOW, if there is any scrutiny to be had here, it should be that President Obama, in way, superseded the remembrance of Pearl Harbor by overlapping it with the remembrance of Nelson Mandela (http://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/presidential-actions/proclamations). Flags shall be flown at half mast in remembrance of Pearl Harbor only on the 7th, while Nelson Mandela receives the whole weekend. This really supports the idea that this honor is being severely diluted and is almost being used haphazardly. Why can't Nelson Mandela receive one day, and Pearl Harbor receive one day? Does the fact that Nelson Mandela gets a whole weekend mean that he is more important? There's some misinformation on this thread and a lot of getting hung up on erroneous topics (Whitney Houston (http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lz9jdez9HX1rp740do1_500.gif)), but this should be the glaring offense here.

My research today makes believe that this man does NOT deserve the flags to be at half mast. His targets in his revolts were not military or police but white civilians or blacks that did tow the mission. Putting landmines on highways and blowing up pubs should not make one a hero regardless of the good you have done after the acts. Sorry racism is not clouding my mind. However I am not president Obama nor anyone that can influence the flag status of our country but I am a man who does not have to beleive this honor is warranted. So if you believe that laying ramdom land mines and blowing up pubs is forgivable or justified then that is your business.

MrPrena

12-06-2013, 16:45

Seems like popular person gets the 1/2 staff......................................

Squeeze

12-06-2013, 16:53

http://i1094.photobucket.com/albums/i445/TangoDownPro/EatingPopcorn_zpsa7b00364.gif (http://s1094.photobucket.com/user/TangoDownPro/media/EatingPopcorn_zpsa7b00364.gif.html)

Bunny

12-06-2013, 17:29

Whitney Houston gets it at half mast- Why didn't Chris Kyle?????

SvenJorgensen

12-06-2013, 18:27

My research today makes believe that this man does NOT deserve the flags to be at half mast. His targets in his revolts were not military or police but white civilians or blacks that did tow the mission. Putting landmines on highways and blowing up pubs should not make one a hero regardless of the good you have done after the acts. Sorry racism is not clouding my mind. However I am not president Obama nor anyone that can influence the flag status of our country but I am a man who does not have to beleive this honor is warranted. So if you believe that laying ramdom land mines and blowing up pubs is forgivable or justified then that is your business.

I do not know anything about the pub bombing reference. Source?

The landmines were in use from 1985-1987 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umkhonto_we_Sizwe) and were discontinued after civilian deaths were found to be occurring. Also, to accurately define the maliciousness of the landmines used by the African National Congress, you must take the international humanitarian laws at the current time. Landmines were not restricted in internal conflicts by international law. The Convention on Certain Conventional Weapons was set into place on in 1980, but Protocol II was expanded in May of 1996 (http://www.icrc.org/ihl/INTRO/575) to include them in this instance, well after the ANC landmines were used. Also, the Ottawa Treaty (http://www.icbl.org/index.php/icbl/Treaty) which seeks to eliminate the use of anti-personnel mines around the world, and has been accepted by the international community, did not take place until 1997.

To summarize: The mines were legal by law. They were not used to target civilians, but civilian casualties were suffered. The mines were removed because of civilian casualties. Civilian casualties, even by modern consensus, are a grim, but relatively accepted part of warfare. Nelson Mandela did not himself physically lay mines, but was a part of the leadership of the African National Congress that did.

Ronin13

12-06-2013, 18:29

Whitney Houston gets it at half mast- Why didn't Chris Kyle?????
Short answer- because it's Oblahblah.

Bunny

12-06-2013, 18:39

Short answer- because it's Oblahblah.
That was such a slap in the face to Americans from obummer

rondog

12-06-2013, 19:33

I do not know anything about the pub bombing reference. Source?

The landmines were in use from 1985-1987 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umkhonto_we_Sizwe) and were discontinued after civilian deaths were found to be occurring. Also, to accurately define the maliciousness of the landmines used by the African National Congress, you must take the international humanitarian laws at the current time. Landmines were not restricted in internal conflicts by international law. The Convention on Certain Conventional Weapons was set into place on in 1980, but Protocol II was expanded in May of 1996 (http://www.icrc.org/ihl/INTRO/575) to include them in this instance, well after the ANC landmines were used. Also, the Ottawa Treaty (http://www.icbl.org/index.php/icbl/Treaty) which seeks to eliminate the use of anti-personnel mines around the world, and has been accepted by the international community, did not take place until 1997.

To summarize: The mines were legal by law. They were not used to target civilians, but civilian casualties were suffered. The mines were removed because of civilian casualties. Civilian casualties, even by modern consensus, are a grim, but relatively accepted part of warfare. Nelson Mandela did not himself physically lay mines, but was a part of the leadership of the African National Congress that did.

http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/?p=85889

http://americanfreepress.net/?p=11873

Aloha_Shooter

12-06-2013, 20:00

So if foreign dignitaries are included on the list, then what is your list of foreign dignitaries that are ahead of a Nelson Mandela?

Winston Churchill.
Margaret Thatcher.
Raoul Wallenberg.

Eric P

12-06-2013, 22:30

When i found out why our flag was at half mast, i raised it to full mast, at a state facility. No wah should a foreigner have this honor. I did the same for whitney

RMAC757

12-06-2013, 22:40

http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/?p=85889

http://americanfreepress.net/?p=11873

Any article that starts out with "Terrorism is not terrorism when the Illuminati Jewish banking cartel is behind it." Looses me quickly. Where do you find this stuff? Another gem from your articles:

However, when the Palestinians employ terror against the Apartheid regime of Israel, they are “terrorists.” Never mind that Israel was built on Zionist terror against the British. When the Illuminati bankers or their shills use it, terrorists are “freedom fighters” and “insurgents.” (Syria today is another example.)

Couldn't resist posting another blurb stating that the holocaust was a hoax from your publication

In other words, according to the World Almanac the world population of Jews increased (!) between 1933 and 1948 from 15,315,000 to 15,753,000. If the German government under Adolf Hitler had – as alleged – murdered six million Jews those losses should have been reflected in the Jewish population numbers quoted in the World Almanac.