3 gun gear question

[Caithford]

Good morning,

I am just about to finish up acquiring my firearms so I can shoot 3 gun. So I've been doing a lot of research online trying to figure out what to get so I can have a belt ready for my first match.

Currently, I don't have much of anything. I have my XDM gear for my pistol, and have been using that for USPSA. I really like the CR Speed belt, and was planning on getting one of those to start. From what I understand, I should be able to carry 1 30-rd AR-15 mag on the belt, 2-3 spare pistol mags, and then shot shell carriers.

What Ar-15 mag holder is recommended? I've seen the bladetech pouch mentioned in many vids/threads.

What holster should I get for my XDm 45? It's not the competition model. I could use my XDm gear kydex holster, but my concerns are the following: retention, I could tighten down the screw but it's just friction. would a locking mechanism be better/safer? Also, it doesn't cover the muzzle, which is not so much a safety issue as, I don't want to be dragging it in the dirt/mud/etc. Is this a concern locally? (CRC or Weld)

What shotshell holders to get? I really like the carbon arms system, but at $100 each, that not really reasonable to start. Maybe later if I'm good enough to justify the cost.

The opinion seems to be split between CR Speed and Safariland ELS. Obviously the ELS belt and kits are expensive, but is it easy to convert say, bladetech holsters/mag pouches to the ELS system? I found that the CR speed mag pouches DON'T convert well/easily.

Since my spending capital is low, I'm not really trying to do it as "cheaply" as possible, but I am going for efficiency, and scalability. I understand I'll probably just start with a belt and some cheap-o stuff so I can start shooting and add/upgrade holster, pouches, etc., as time goes on.

-Bob

[Fromk]

I'll give you my opinion considering a budget and existing gear. The short version is to save your money until after you've done a couple matches. Ask questions and get your hands on as much gear that you can. There are a lot of nice guys at 3gun.

If your XDM gear has been getting you through USPSA then it will carry over just fine.

There are plenty of kydex AR mag holders on the market that will do a good job. Avoid pouches and flaps since they will get in the way. Honestly, a pocket is a great way to go at the start.

The alternative to the Carbon Arms system are the California Competition Works caddies. They are about $25 a piece and you may only need one or two 4 shell holders. Check your match for shotgun round counts and maybe look into borrowing a couple the first time out. Again, maybe a pocket will be enough to get you through a couple matches. If you're interested in the Carbon Arms method consider saving your money so you don't have to restart you loading training.

Extra locking retention isn't too important on the pistol holster. There's a lot of simple kydex retention holsters in use and they do great. I'm a Bladetech guy myself.

I hope that covers enough. My suggestion is always to show up with a quality belt, pistol holster, and pistol mag pouches. The rest tends to be pretty easy for the first couple matches until you're comfortable with some of the gear choices you'll need to make.

[MarkCO]

Being local, if you get in touch with me and stop by the shop, we have pretty decent discounts for CO shooters. I have some T&E returns I can't sell as new also. Maybe one CCW caddie is worth it. There are usually people out who will let you use their stuff, I know I lend out gear regularly. I won't apologize that we make the best shotgun loading gear, but do get in touch with me to get it for less. :)

Belts. I hate the Safariland belt, but I like their ELS clips. I just bolted the 034/035 females to the CR belt and the males to the gear. Best of both worlds.

Holsters, DSG, Comp-Tac, Blade-Tech, pick your favorite and go with it. I use BT and I keep a few on Tek-Loks of each pistol and rifle mag pouchs. So those are something that can be borrowed at a match as well.

Feel free to drop me a note if you have any other questions.

[CO-Exprs]

Good morning,

I am just about to finish up acquiring my firearms so I can shoot 3 gun. So I've been doing a lot of research online trying to figure out what to get so I can have a belt ready for my first match.

Currently, I don't have much of anything. I have my XDM gear for my pistol, and have been using that for USPSA. I really like the CR Speed belt, and was planning on getting one of those to start. From what I understand, I should be able to carry 1 30-rd AR-15 mag on the belt, 2-3 spare pistol mags, and then shot shell carriers.

What Ar-15 mag holder is recommended? I've seen the bladetech pouch mentioned in many vids/threads.

What holster should I get for my XDm 45? It's not the competition model. I could use my XDm gear kydex holster, but my concerns are the following: retention, I could tighten down the screw but it's just friction. would a locking mechanism be better/safer? Also, it doesn't cover the muzzle, which is not so much a safety issue as, I don't want to be dragging it in the dirt/mud/etc. Is this a concern locally? (CRC or Weld)

What shotshell holders to get? I really like the carbon arms system, but at $100 each, that not really reasonable to start. Maybe later if I'm good enough to justify the cost.

The opinion seems to be split between CR Speed and Safariland ELS. Obviously the ELS belt and kits are expensive, but is it easy to convert say, bladetech holsters/mag pouches to the ELS system? I found that the CR speed mag pouches DON'T convert well/easily.

Since my spending capital is low, I'm not really trying to do it as "cheaply" as possible, but I am going for efficiency, and scalability. I understand I'll probably just start with a belt and some cheap-o stuff so I can start shooting and add/upgrade holster, pouches, etc., as time goes on.

-Bob

Until you shoot big matches, you really don't need a ton of stuff. An easy way to stretch the dollars would be to put together a basic do it all belt. A Bladetech AR15 mag pouch on the back is plenty for local stuff. You generally won't shoot enough pistol in local matches to need more than a double pistol mag pouch on the hip. If you really need another for backup, you can put one in your pocket. The pistol holster, you already have. I just use a basic blade tech and tighten it up for stages where I am running with the pistol holstered. The last piece to get going would be a Carbon Arms 16 shell backbone, two male and female ELS clips and a hand drill. You can drill mounting holes through your CR Speed belt and simply mount up two of the female clips (one at each end of the backbone). When you are at a 3gun match you simply snap the backbone into place on the front. If you have a stage where you don't want the shell caddies in place, you simply unsnap the entire unit and leave it in your bag. 16 shells on the belt will get you through 95% of local match needs. Clean, easy and relatively inexpensive. When you decide you're ready to step up to major matches, you will want a bit more gear, but honestly... for now... an AR15 mag pouch and a 16 shell backbone will get the job done without compromise.

[muddywings]

^^^those guys are the more experienced match directors/pros from provo type
<<<this guy: noobie
So from a noob perspective, my biggest worry (besides DQing) is running out of ammo. Why? Well, call it a confidence issue I guess. That being said, I have never run out of ammo in a stage. (yet)
1. Rifle: I think of the handful of matches I have shot, I have only had to reload the AR once, maybe twice and that was at a rifle only stage (Noveske). I AWAYS have a spare because I have bad luck and if something goes wrong with a mag, I'd rather have a spare to go. I have seen people put in a half loaded mag in a 20 round stage only to run out with no spare to go to. Mistake one, not loading a full mag. Mistake two, not having a spare. It happens. All that being said, your back pocket makes a great AR Mag pouch.
2. Handgun: If you are sporting a 15+ round firearm, a standard XD double mag pouch will do fine. You'll probably reload a lot but using more than 2 mags is highly unlikely. So see above, you start out with one in the gun, have the second because you need per the stage it and a third for just in case.
3. Shotgun: I don't shoot shotgun much so my practice comes when I'm actually shooting a match. Hence, my low confidence. This is where I stocked up on equipment. (Of course I made my own). Fishing shells out of your pocket will get old and frustrating real fast. Don't skimp to much here. Loading takes practice so buy dummy shells the second after you buy a caddy or two (or three). Time slows down and goes foreverrrrrr when loading the shotgun.

Other stuff from a noob-
Belt: Up until a few months ago, I was using my 1.5" leather belt and either sliding my equipment on or using tecloks. Hence why I went to teclok for everything recently. The competition belts are nice and I have one now but my standard belt that I wear day to day when I CCW worked just fine.
Guns: you can shoot anything and have fun but I was very happy I upgraded my home defense pump shotgun with an autoloader (mossberg 930). I bought mine used so the lifter was welded so I still have my thumbnail, and it came with some XS sights. Sure a new shotgun is a bit pricer than an AR mag pouch or a competition belt but in a way shotgun can make or break you. I think a lot of people feel that shooting a shotgun is easy...and in a lot of ways it is but loading a shotgun is another ball of wax and having a good working shotgun is a very nice thing. (My mossberg is on the low end scale for 3 Gun but I still have fun with it)

Alright, I've BSed enough tonight. Get ready to spend some $$$$$ :)

[Caithford]

Thanks for the advice everyone. I'm going to try to make the January match at Weld (Wx permitting, of course). I'll just start with my gear that I've been using for USPSA for now and try to see / borrow / test other stuff once I'm there.

Is the ammo recommendation still 100 pistol, 100 rifle, 75 shot, 25 slug?

I got a bonus from work for the end of the year (I'm very fortunate), and I am picking up a Mossberg 930 with it. Getting it with the 4 round mag extension since my interpretation of reading the new laws sounds like 8+1 is the max capacity I can get since I was too poor to purchase prior to Jul 1.

[muddywings]

Have fun!
Been meaning to shoot the weld match but haven't yet.
My last bit of advice is think about how you are going to transport everything from stage to stage.
I'm rolling with the el'cheapo Plano case but I can squeeze both my ar and 930 in there...barely ;)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)

[two shoes]

I got a bonus from work for the end of the year (I'm very fortunate),
Where I work bonus is spelled with two words... I need to take my 930 out and run a couple boxes of shells through it... I hope to make it out there too.

[CO-Exprs]

Shotgun magazine is actually limited by a length of 28". That will get you 10+1 in most platforms. When you get the gun, measure the factory magazine length and then order an correct length product from Nordic. Nordic has the lengths of their products on their web site. Also, at the risk of starting an equipment war... for a couple hundred more, you can get a Versamax Sportsman. Then you'd have a real shooter.

[Irving]

Is it realistic to shoot local matches with open sights on a rifle and a pump shotgun?

ETA: Not necessarily to be competitive, but as a way to introduce yourself to the sport?

[TheBelly]

I'll give you my opinion considering a budget and existing gear. The short version is to save your money until after you've done a couple matches. Ask questions and get your hands on as much gear that you can. There are a lot of nice guys at 3gun.

End thread

[TheBelly]

Being local, if you get in touch with me and stop by the shop, we have pretty decent discounts for CO shooters. I have some T&E returns I can't sell as new also. Maybe one CCW caddie is worth it. There are usually people out who will let you use their stuff, I know I lend out gear regularly. I won't apologize that we make the best shotgun loading gear, but do get in touch with me to get it for less. :).

Really...... End of thread right here, too.

[CO-Exprs]

Is it realistic to shoot local matches with open sights on a rifle and a pump shotgun?

If you mean iron sights... then yes. I shoot irons and a pump most of the time. I usually finish very well. Just takes a little practice to learn how to run the sights at speed both near and far. As for the pump... autos are faster, but not that much faster. Generally competent shotgun reloading and stage execution makes up for the deficiency in cycle speed. As a rule, winners are going to win with just about anything. James Casanova can show up with muzzle loader and a blunderbuss and he will still find a way to edge me out.

[Irving]

Thank you.

[Fromk]

I got a bonus from work for the end of the year (I'm very fortunate), and I am picking up a Mossberg 930 with it. Getting it with the 4 round mag extension since my interpretation of reading the new laws sounds like 8+1 is the max capacity I can get since I was too poor to purchase prior to Jul 1.

If you're going to shoot tactical or limited class you're limited to 9 rounds starting in the gun (at most matches) and will often need an empty chamber. What that means for a 930 is being able to have 8 in the tube since you can ghost/carrier load a 9th. If you go for that tube length you might as well get a 21 or 24 inch barrel. Just a little tip for your future purchase if it's going to be primarily for 3-gun.

OH!!! Whatever semi auto shotgun you get be sure to break it in before the match. I feel like I saw a lot of new shotguns act up this past year. Nothing more frustrating than a gun not working when you really want it to.

[Bentsight]

Shotgun magazine is actually limited by a length of 28".

What rule set specifies this restriction?
I was only aware of the 9 on board at the start of a COF.

[MarkCO]

Is it realistic to shoot local matches with open sights on a rifle and a pump shotgun?

ETA: Not necessarily to be competitive, but as a way to introduce yourself to the sport?

Yes. I regularly tell people to NOT buy anything until you have been to a match or two with whatever you have. I shot my first 3Gun with an 870 pump, Glock 22 and a Marin Camp 9. At CRC, I make it even easier...you can shoot the local matches with just a handgun. You get to shoot, see what other folks do and don't have to have much more than a pistol rig.


What rule set specifies this restriction?
I was only aware of the 9 on board at the start of a COF.

The 28" is the stupid Colorado law, not a match rule set. Most matches allow 8 in the tube at the start, but there is no limitation on the actual tube length.

A bit about platforms suitable for Limited and Tactical Scope...

Shotguns: DO NOT go out and buy a 930, 1100, 11-87 to shoot 3Gun, again, DO NOT. Sure, if you have one, run it, but don't spend more than maybe $100 on it. There are 5 auto-loading shotguns that will get it done: Benelli M2 and Vinci, Versa-Max, SLP, 1301C. Maybe if you want to go budget, a Stoeger. I prefer the Versa-Max for a lot of reasons. You can get a Turkey for under $900 and have it ready to rock and roll for no more than $1200 if you trust yourself with a dremel. I'd rather you run a 870 or 500 for a year than waste money on a platform that is marginal.

Pistol: Run what you have, but if you are looking, a 9mm striker fired set up for USPSA Production with 140mm mags is the ticket. G17, G34, M&P9, XDm, FNS. CZs work great as do 2011 9mms, but more coin and they do need a bit more care both dumping and maintenance.

Rifle: Any 10" to 20" barreled AR-15 with either irons or a red dot (Limited) or a low mag (1-4) will work. A 16" medium contour mid-length gas or a 18" medium contour rifle gas will be the best set-ups. If you are looking for an upper, we build great uppers that give the JP uppers a run for their money, but for about $500 less coin.

3Gun is NOT cheap. Figure $4K in kit to get on the ground and then you have ammo, and lots of it. If you are say B class or better in USPSA, I would say jump on in and start figuring out what rifle and shotgun set-up you want. If you are not there yet, focus some on pistol and shoot some 3Gun matches with the pistol. 3Gunners (no offense towards anyone else) are great folks and most have enough pride in their gear that they will let you run a course with their rifle or shotgun at the end of a match.

[MarkCO]

If you keep an eye on the Carbon Arms FB page, you might see some really good deals over the next 12 days. :)

[Caithford]

When's the first CRC match in 2014? The new schedule isn't up yet on ecouspsa.

[MarkCO]

I think February.

When we get closer to January, IF the weather is nice, I will run a Intro to 3Gun Clinic on the 1st Saturday.

[muddywings]

I think February.

When we get closer to January, IF the weather is nice, I will run a Intro to 3Gun Clinic on the 1st Saturday.

^^^^ do this ^^^^


If you keep an eye on the Carbon Arms FB page, you might see some really good deals over the next 12 days. :)

took me a bit but if you search for "Carbon Arms Corp" in FB it's easier to find. to bad i'm broke :(

[Caithford]

I'm pulling for the Wx to be nice. I'd like to go, and will go when Mark runs the next one. Also, trying to talk the wife into a membership at CRC. That way I can practice practical shooting once Mark clears me on safety.

[MarkCO]

Anyone who does an Intro to 3Gun can get cleared for the East range Dynamic use at the same time. :)

[thermobollocks]

Also remember to figure out how to hit stuff with slugs, and which slugs get along with whatever shotgun you bring. I keep learning that the hard way :D

[belizejet]

Thanks for the advice everyone. I'm going to try to make the January match at Weld (Wx permitting, of course). I'll just start with my gear that I've been using for USPSA for now and try to see / borrow / test other stuff once I'm there.

Is the ammo recommendation still 100 pistol, 100 rifle, 75 shot, 25 slug?

I got a bonus from work for the end of the year (I'm very fortunate), and I am picking up a Mossberg 930 with it. Getting it with the 4 round mag extension since my interpretation of reading the new laws sounds like 8+1 is the max capacity I can get since I was too poor to purchase prior to Jul 1.

I got a Mossberg 930 and for the first 300 rounds it ran with anything I put in it. It then started giving trouble with the Universal walmart bulk box stuff so I cleaned it out real good. Worked for about 25 more rounds before it stopped feeding. This time I took it down to nuts and bolts with a complete cleaning. It has been working so far. If I use some higher end stuff it works fine but anything around 1200fps or less wont cycle.

[muddywings]

I got a Mossberg 930 and for the first 300 rounds it ran with anything I put in it. It then started giving trouble with the Universal walmart bulk box stuff so I cleaned it out real good. Worked for about 25 more rounds before it stopped feeding. This time I took it down to nuts and bolts with a complete cleaning. It has been working so far. If I use some higher end stuff it works fine but anything around 1200fps or less wont cycle.

I picked up my 930 used and it was an SPX converted for 3 gun. When I got it, it was for a pretty smoking deal with things like the lifter welded but I have read that the 930 can be hit or miss. The first thing I did after reading about issues like this is picked up a variety of loads and tested them out. I did have issues with very very light loads (sub 1000 fps) but everything else including slug and buck ran fine. I regularly shoot 1100ish fps birdshot without a hickup but I suspect YMMV with a 930.
Because of the hit or miss reports i do clean it regularly and thoroughly to include a prematch oil down. It hasn't let me down in a match but I wouldn't mind upgrading to a versamax like MarkCo recommended above but to many other toys on the list and it will do for now.