Hunting

[bsoelman]

Hi all, new here and I have been searching around and there is a whole lot of info here, just getting confusing. I have a new lower that I want to build a hunting rifle out of, I have a 5.56 for fun, I want to hunt deer and maybe elk. I am reading a lot of conflicting data on hunting rounds. I am currently looking between the 6.8 and the .300BO. I am seeing that the .300 may not be the best choice, what are the laws and requirements here in CO? I am from Michigan and just not sure where to look. Thanks All!!

[Robb]

http://wildlife.state.co.us/SiteCollectionDocuments/DOW/RulesRegs/Brochure/BigGame/biggame.pdf

Both 6.8 & .300 are legal for big game hunting in CO. 6.8 will have a little flatter trajectory past 200 or so yards. Longer shots and I'd prefer the 6.8. It all depends on the terrain you intend to hunt and the shots you're willing to take. A .300 for a woods gun may be great. Personally I think either fine for deer but wouldn't consider either for elk, just my opinion. There's the .243WSSM and a number of others that may be better choices for hunting, but I believe you have to buy the complete uppers, you can't build your own. Someone else will be along with much more knowledge than I.

[Dave]

http://wildlife.state.co.us/SiteCollectionDocuments/DOW/RulesRegs/Brochure/BigGame/biggame.pdf

6.8 SPC with good shot placement would get a deer easily enough. The 6.5 Grendel might do it too. Some .300 Blk loads have the impact energy required, but it dissipates quick at longer range. The .458 SOCOM or the Bushmaster .450 round pack enough wallop for just about any North American game at 200 or so yards and in and have some hollow point rounds that won't cause a huge mess. I am just getting into the .458 right now, but If I was going to use an AR platform for deer or elk I'd grab an AR-10 in .308 with a 20"+ heavy barrel and free float handguard. Just me though. Some others will have their own preferences or experiences to draw on.

Where in MI? I was born and raised in the Kalamazoo area until I joined the Army after high school.

[bsoelman]

thanks fellas, I already have the lower so I dont really want to go .308 or anything like that, Dave I lived in Muskegon for 5 years, Cadillac for 4 and Grand Rapids for 5. Been out here since 2008. Do the .458 and .450 require different lowers? Never heard of those before.

[Dave]

Nope, .450 and .458 are uppers that go on an AR-15 lower. Not the cheapest options with ammo around $3 a round for .458, and I don't know if Bushmaster has released any .450 in a while, though they are still in their newest line up. Only thing with using the big bores for hunting is they tend to arc more than other rounds. I'm betting a nice 20"+ 6.8 SPC upper is going to be your best bet for what you want to do.

[DeusExMachina]

The appeal of 300BLK is it's just a barrel change, or more realistically, stripped upper change. No special magazines or bolt required. It's also very suppressable, even for supersonic loads.

From my research, the 110gr Barnes TAC-TX bullet is king of the 300BLK hunting ammo. Great expansion, solid copper, and lots of energy.

The most important thing is 5.56 is not allowed in CO for hunting big game, so that's where these other cartridges come into play. I just built a 16" and I plan to use it this month for pronghorn out to 300 yards. I will also use it for deer and pronghorn next year.

The big question is elk. It meets the DOW minimum energy requirement for elk (1000 ft/lbs at 100 yards). But I think you have to be prepared to pass on a shot further than 150 yards, maybe 200 if you're confident in shot placement. As of this moment I'm thinking about bringing it along if a buddy has a 308+ with him and being OK with passing on shots.

[spqrzilla]

Centerfire Rifles
a. Must be minimum of .24 caliber (6 mm).
b. Must have a minimum 16-inch barrel and be at least 26 inches long.
c. If semiautomatic, a maximum of six rounds are allowed in the magazine and chamber combined.

d. Must use expanding bullets that weigh minimum 70 grains for deer,pronghorn and bear, 85 grains for elk and moose, and have an impact energy (at 100 yards) of 1,000-ft. pounds as rated by manufacturer.

Above is quoted from the Colorado Big Game brochure. Note that you will need to make sure you have a five round magazine for whatever caliber you choose. I would suggest either the 6.8SPC or the 6.5 Grendel myself, as those rounds will give you a bit more range.

[buckshotbarlow]

To be ethical, and all that other garbage, I would stay away from any caliber for ELK that is under .400 in an AR. Now, Mike at dtech builds some WSSM uppers. IMHO, I would check those out:
http://www.dtechuppers.com/ar-15-wssm-upper-receivers.html
Mike has a hardcore following, and guys that are buying his stuff are loving it.

Remember that you'll be tracking a wounded elk with a 300wtf cartridge, even with a vital shot. I wouldn't use it, along with the grendel or spc. I'm a magnum guy when it comes to those fuckers, and I know what it takes to make em DRT...Big bullets moving fast, make big holes...I'm reserving my bigger ar calibers to deer, yotes and VC.

[Colorado Osprey]

Mike at dtech builds some WSSM uppers. IMHO, I would check those out:
http://www.dtechuppers.com/ar-15-wssm-upper-receivers.html
Mike has a hardcore following, and guys that are buying his stuff are loving it.
.

Kudos on Mike Milli aka Dtech. I own some of his work and they are all SUB MOA guns. Her offers a 30 cal version of the WSSM which ballisticly is between a 30-06 and a 300 Win Mag.
Pretty impressive consider it is being shot from the AR-15 chassis....not it's big brother.
Mike is also making a .358 cal version that would be a better short range gun, but hitting like a train.

BTW the 243WSSM outperforms both the Grendel and the SPC by a LONG shot.

[buckshotbarlow]

BTW the 243WSSM outperforms both the Grendel and the SPC by a VERY VERY FAT shot.

Fixed it for you CO

[TRnCO]

went out today and filled my late season doe tag with my D-Tech .243 wssm. I've lost count how many antelope that I've shot with this rifle, but with 85 partitions, it sure seems to work well. Still haven't recovered a bullet. Shot this one at 330 yards, in her bed. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v156/songdog/003_zps6bde389b.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/songdog/media/003_zps6bde389b.jpg.html)

[buckshotbarlow]

^^^ there u have it...Get the lil calibers for the lil critters, and get the bigger ones for the big'r critters. It appears that Mike does have brass in stock.

[MarkCO]

Just an opinion...

I would skip .300BO. While I have 2, they just don't cut the mustard for Big Game. Sure, you can try to hunt like an Archer and get close on deer and do fine with them, but for Pronghorn and Elk, please, just say no. I just tracked a Cow elk for 5.3 miles in 10 degree weather that was hit with a 7mm Mag in the chest. In over 100 head of elk shot in my presence or by me, the ones the are not DRT have all been hit with less than .30 caliber or a .30-30 (which is close to the .300BO). Elk are tough!

If you are willing to limit yourself to Deer and Pronghorn, and smaller, I would strongly consider a 6mm to 7mm. There are two paths here:

1. There are both 6mm and 6.5mm that use necked up .223 brass. The nice thing is just a barrel change, so they are a bit less expensive and more reliable. Plus, you can build one yourself. 6x45 is basically a .243 minus 500 fps. It is okay, but you do have to be able to put the brakes on at about 250 yards. There is a 6.5 PCC (which I am currently building), a 6.5Whisper and a 7mmWhisper, but I would avoid Whispers. Jones is a jerk and they don't even build barrels for the 6.5 and 7mm anymore.

2. The 6.5G and the 6.8SPC. These are fatter cartridges and typically need bolts, barrels and mags for a conversion. In some cases, milling of the upper receiver too. Personally, I see no advantage since you can get almost identical ballistics with the .223 based cases for about half the cost. If you are not a reloader, these are your choices in the 6-7mm.

If you want to be less limited in terms of game, there is the .458SOCOM and the .450BM. There are some differences, but to me the .450BM is the better choice. Just a Bolt and barrel change, and the bolt can be made from a 7.62x39 bolt pretty easily. I am currently working with Tim LeGendre (The designer of the .450BM) on some new "stuff". First is a .450Corvette, which uses a proprietary gas system, higher twist rate, longer barrels and the math says 300 grain bullets at 2700 fps, but it will still be able to shoot factory .450BM loads (225s at 2200). There is a 9mm Nato AR (124s at 3000 fps) in the works too, but that is further off.

If you are interested in a 6.5PCC or a .450BM, I can help you source parts. The .450C (Which Bert at BP should be done with the barrel next week) will be off a few months.

[bsoelman]

wow thanks guys, that is a lot of info and unfortunately it seems there are even more options than I knew about, I want to build something good but budget is also an issue, any ideas what some of this stuff is running price wise and what ammo is even available? I am still leaning a bit towards the .300 due to the price and availability of parts and ammo, and I likely will just be hunting dear for a bit. If I want to go elk I could just go buy a 30-06 and be done with it. I am still open to suggestions though. I spoke with a few guys at Jensens and they thing the .300 does just fine out to 300-400 yards.