View Full Version : The Question No One here Wants to Ask
SuperiorDG
12-16-2013, 10:46
Did the new mag laws change the gun of choice in this latest shooting? He could have bought any long gun he wanted, but chose the shotgun. Maybe it was just a cost thing, really who knows. Even though he chose what he did I don't think the outcome would have been any different.
Thoughts?
KevDen2005
12-16-2013, 10:48
My guess would be cost and ease of understanding is why the shotgun was chosen
Agreed. He was 18 so probablt didn't have a ton of coin. Plus, who cares what you buy if you are just going to off yourself for the greater good anyway?
I'd go with cost being the deciding factor. Even if you only had a smaller number of rounds available due to the mag laws I still see a semi-auto mag fed being the preferred choice.
ETA:
His going after a specific target may also have been a factor. Don't need a full mag to get one person (though it cannot hurt).
I wondered the same thing. He probably bought it without the folks knowing and didn't have the coin for an AR or M9 or whatever. Maybe even bought used.
Even claiming to understand what occurs in the mind of such a person is folly. We use rational thought process to make choices because, in large part, we value human life. I was able to speak with a LEO who was pursuing a advanced degree who interviewed several death row inmates. Their thought process is whacked in most cases. My personal belief is that there is some kind of "switch" when we choose to flip it, the rational thought process ceases to exist, for most people.
Sure, BTK, Dahmer, the Unabomber, etc. likely suffered from a different set of delusion.
The fact of life is that NO law will prevent these kinds of attacks when people have even a slight amount of "freedom".
RblDiver
12-16-2013, 11:29
My guess is that he probably thought a shotgun'd be more effective versus one target, and since that was his primary goal, he didn't need a different weapon to kill others too. I'm sure he would have been pleased at additional collateral afterwards, but he probably wanted his primary target dead more than anything.
kidicarus13
12-16-2013, 11:35
Shotguns shells were the only thing available when he made the shotgun purchase?
10mm-man
12-16-2013, 11:46
ETA:
His going after a specific target may also have been a factor. Don't need a full mag to get one person (though it cannot hurt).
Wasn't it reported he had an "Arsenal"??
That word has a defined meaning and was being used as defined? :)
Wasn't it reported he had an "Arsenal"??
Nope, it was reported that he felt current gun laws weren't stringent enough.
SuperiorDG
12-16-2013, 12:18
Wasn't it reported he had an "Arsenal"??
I guess that is why DOW was there because they are used to duck hunters and their "Arsenals."
Wasn't it reported he had an "Arsenal"??
It was reported that a "mass shooting" was prevented.
Whut? [facepalm]
Nope, it was reported that he felt current gun laws weren't stringent enough.
See above.
HoneyBadger
12-16-2013, 16:21
Shotguns shells were the only thing available when he made the shotgun purchase?
Sadly, this is probably accurate.
Kraven251
12-16-2013, 16:27
I was going to say, there are plenty of 10rnd mags out there, and you can still find 30rnd "kits" if you look around
HoneyBadger
12-16-2013, 16:28
I was going to say, there are plenty of 10rnd mags out there, and you can still find 30rnd "kits" if you look around
Honestly, there has to be hundreds of thousands of 30rd magazines in Colorado...
[Sofa]
ANADRILL
12-16-2013, 16:43
Biden approved, so he used...
I was going to say, there are plenty of 10rnd mags out there, and you can still find 30rnd "kits" if you look around
If he has this planned out and if he desired an AR and if he wanted mags with more rounds than what colorado currently allowed...he would have gone to wyoming to pick them up...if nothing else.
Among most people the mindset is if you want to do a lot of damage to someone then use a shotgun. I would suspect that is the mindset he was running under. That and $ probably played into what he could get...being still in school and all.
Honestly, there has to be hundreds of thousands of 30rd magazines in Colorado...
A more interesting question might be how many AR-15 style rifles are in Colorado.
HoneyBadger
12-16-2013, 17:14
A more interesting question might be how many AR-15 style rifles are in Colorado.
More than enough...
[Muaha]
Probably concerned about over-penetration within the confines of a school.
Biden approved, so he used...
Now where is the blame game on Uncle Joe? I guess because the shooter didn't fire two in the air and shoot through doors.
Probably concerned about over-penetration within the confines of a school.
I don't think he was very concerned about much of anything except his main motive to be there with a shotgun. Just saying...
newracer
12-16-2013, 17:33
I really doubt it had anything to do with the current magazine ban. Does anyone really think someone with the intent of killing cares about any law? Most likely it was due to cost.
SuperiorDG
12-16-2013, 17:35
A more interesting question might be how many AR-15 style rifles are in Colorado.
I'm sure our lakes are full of them.[Beer]
SideShow Bob
12-16-2013, 18:10
You must have watched Faux 31 news, they kept saying "The shooter was armed with an arsenal, he had a shotgun, a machete and 3 homemade explosive devices"....... And the station repeated that continually.
SideShow Bob
12-16-2013, 18:11
Anyone hear of the manufacturer and model of the shotgun yet ?
I think the focus will be on the BGC law and how it's "not enough."
If this guy could pass the BGC it won't be enough in the minds of Liberals. They have to keep pushing until they total disarmament.
A more interesting question might be how many AR-15 style rifles are in Colorado.
What AR15's?........
Kind of sad, but does anyone else feel like school shootungs are becoming just another part of current pop culture? Kind of like the knock-out game, or even Chinese workers jumping off the roof of the factory they work at.
Kind of sad, but does anyone else feel like school shootungs are becoming just another part of current pop culture?
I wonder how many school shootings there would be if the media didn't feature them as front page stories for days on end (and if there wasn't likely behind-the-scenes political urging to do so). Although school shootings are certainly horrific, there were other people that died on the same day by other than natural causes and those people don't merit mention.
Jeffrey Lebowski
12-16-2013, 18:43
I think the focus will be on the BGC law and how it's "not enough."
If this guy could pass the BGC it won't be enough in the minds of Liberals. They have to keep pushing until they total disarmament.
Skip, I think what MarkCO said about these people could also apply to liberals:
Even claiming to understand what occurs in the mind of such a person is folly. We use rational thought process to make choices because, in large part, we value human life.
I do agree with your underlying thought though: What amount of legislation would have stopped this? None.
By using a shotgun, which Biden and Obama both have embraced in order to look centrist, he basically defeated all of their arguments. At least in my mind.
OtterbatHellcat
12-16-2013, 18:46
I might be full of shit here, but isn't a shotgun the only real gun you can legally buy if you're only 18 years old? Hand guns and those scary nasty black guns are 21 years old, right?
It's not hard to see why school shootings happen. It's the point of frustration/anger/lashing out for these people. Just like "going postal". People attack the area/group/place that causes them the anger/frustration. Then add in the notoriety that they'll get with it and it's the obvious answer for young minds. The ultimate "Ill show you".
It's not hard to see why school shootings happen. It's the point of frustration/anger/lashing out for these people. Just like "going postal". People attack the area/group/place that causes them the anger/frustration. Then add in the notoriety that they'll get with it and it's the obvious answer for young minds. The ultimate "Ill show you".
If you really think that, get some help, please. Killing someone else due to frustration or anger is NOT a "normal" response!
If you really think that, get some help, please. Killing someone else due to frustration or anger is NOT a "normal" response!
I didn't say it was normal. It's the furthest thing from normal.
I might be full of shit here, but isn't a shotgun the only real gun you can legally buy if you're only 18 years old? Hand guns and those scary nasty black guns are 21 years old, right?
Small game no lower limit, Big game is 12, Drive is 16, Long guns and voting is 18, Handguns and alcohol are 21.
I didn't say it was normal. It's the furthest thing from normal.
Good. :)
Good. :)
Re-reading my comment makes me see how that could have come across. My fault.
OtterbatHellcat
12-16-2013, 19:00
Thanks Mark...I stand corrected.
Small game no lower limit, Big game is 12, Drive is 16, Long guns and voting is 18, Handguns and alcohol are 21.
I just realized that there is really only one thing I REALLY enjoy doing that does not have an age limit or license required...and it is still free. :)
Skip, I think what MarkCO said about these people could also apply to liberals:
I do agree with your underlying thought though: What amount of legislation would have stopped this? None.
By using a shotgun, which Biden and Obama both have embraced in order to look centrist, he basically defeated all of their arguments. At least in my mind.
Yep, agree.
It defeats their stated arguments but I am looking at what lies beneath; the desire to outlaw civilian gun ownership. They will twist and contort as necessary.
Remember this gem: http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/12/10/who-needs-a-gun/?_r=0
I'll save you from seeing your dinner again... ;)
We need to make it harder to buy guns (through background checks, waiting periods, etc.) both for those with criminal intentions and for law-abiding citizens who have no real need.
The would-be murderer had no demonstrable need to buy that shotgun, therefore, there is legislation that could have stopped this in the mind of a Liberal. It doesn't matter what the problem/non-problem is, Liberals stand by with ready-made solutions to advance their agenda. Applying a test to a right in this case.
You and I are looking at this problem as rational people who respect RKBA so we see it quite differently.
Scanker19
12-16-2013, 19:34
Maybe he wanted to scare a bunch of people with the sound the Pump makes, before committing a capital crime.
SuperiorDG
12-16-2013, 19:38
Small game no lower limit, Big game is 12, Drive is 16, Long guns and voting is 18, Handguns and alcohol are 21.
Is 18 and 21 a State or Fed law?
centrarchidae
12-16-2013, 19:45
Is 18 and 21 a State or Fed law?
Federal. GCA 1968, IIRC. It limits purchases of firearms from dealers to 21 or greater, but carves out an exception for long guns and 18-year-olds.
(IIRC, you can buy a pistol or a receiver in a private sale at 18 in CO, or at least before requiring every transfer to go through a FFL.)
Is 18 and 21 a State or Fed law?
Federal.
Jeffrey Lebowski
12-16-2013, 19:48
Yep, agree.
It defeats their stated arguments but I am looking at what lies beneath; the desire to outlaw civilian gun ownership. They will twist and contort as necessary.
Remember this gem: http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/12/10/who-needs-a-gun/?_r=0
I'll save you from seeing your dinner again... ;)
The would-be murderer had no demonstrable need to buy that shotgun, therefore, there is legislation that could have stopped this in the mind of a Liberal. It doesn't matter what the problem/non-problem is, Liberals stand by with ready-made solutions to advance their agenda. Applying a test to a right in this case.
You and I are looking at this problem as rational people who respect RKBA so we see it quite differently.
Luckily, with as many weapons as we have in this country and increasing every year, I think that train left the station sometime around 1776. :) I hope.
Luckily, with as many weapons as we have in this country and increasing every year, I think that train left the station sometime around 1776. :) I hope.
I sincerely hope you are right but my gut is telling me you are wrong. I think they will make a big play because they aren't going to get much further with 2A intact.
They are very closing to creating the conditions that make living and working in this country very difficult. People are going to resist that and they know it. They have every angle war gamed.
Jeffrey Lebowski
12-16-2013, 21:23
I sincerely hope you are right but my gut is telling me you are wrong. I think they will make a big play because they aren't going to get much further with 2A intact.
They are very closing to creating the conditions that make living and working in this country very difficult. People are going to resist that and they know it. They have every angle war gamed.
Even in a prison, weapons can be had.
Kind of sad, but does anyone else feel like school shootungs are becoming just another part of current pop culture? Kind of like the knock-out game, or even Chinese workers jumping off the roof of the factory they work at.
I think about half these are being done specifically to prompt the disarming of America. Just like the monks who set themselves on fire to try and protest the war.
So this deeply disturbed adult legally purchased the firearm that Joe Biden suggested owning/firing? Wow.
"We need cooldown periods on all gun purchases to prevent this tragedy'"
"We need cooldown periods on all gun purchases to prevent this tragedy'"
Sure, they'll just wait for you to die before delivery.
osok-308
12-17-2013, 08:24
"We need cooldown periods on all gun purchases to prevent this tragedy'"
The kid made molotov cocktails as well. I'm pretty sure that he had decided a while ago that he was going to do this. From the way he prepared, it seems evident that no "cool down period" could have helped him. Thats what I'd tell people if they suggest that.
Also, i think that this case made it evident that an armed response in less than 90 seconds made all the difference.
Kraven251
12-17-2013, 08:52
"We need cooldown periods on all gun purchases to prevent this tragedy'"
except he bought the shotgun on Dec 6th
ChuckNorris
12-17-2013, 09:09
What bottes did he use to make the molotov cocktails?
I think we need to look at banning those . . . . and gasoline, . . . . . and rags.
Even in a prison, weapons can be had.
Yes, but not the force multipliers we need though. You aren't going to take down a dictatorship with a shiv.
“And how we burned in the camps later, thinking: What would things have been like if every Security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if, during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand?... The Organs would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin's thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt! If...if...We didn't love freedom enough. And even more – we had no awareness of the real situation.... We purely and simply deserved everything that happened afterward.”
It's part weapon and part will.
While we currently have the weapons and no will, take the weapons and there is no hope to ever find the will. The things that made Americans noble and courageous have been taken from us as a nation (while I believe some of us have held onto those things individually). There is no difference between the average modern American and the conquered oppressed peoples in history. These are people who vote away our freedom for the false promise of free healthcare, income equality, or just an Obamaphone.
Caithford
12-17-2013, 12:01
I just realized that there is really only one thing I REALLY enjoy doing that does not have an age limit or license required...and it is still free. :)
You win this thread.
I just realized that there is really only one thing I REALLY enjoy doing that does not have an age limit or license required...and it is still free. :)
You'll go blind doing that.
Ranger353
12-17-2013, 15:11
You'll go blind doing that.
YES! Sister Martha told me that in 6th grade when she caught me looking down her top :-)
hollohas
12-17-2013, 20:21
Short answer, no. I don't think the new laws had any affect.
Long answer, if he was concerned with round count, even after the new laws he could have chosen a long gun with higher capacity than a shotgun. Pure speculation on my part, but cost could have been a factor. There are some VERY cheap shotguns. Just writing that makes me cringe though because if investigators somehow find he bought it because it was cheap, then I'm sure it will be only hours before some Saturday Night Special V2.0 Shotgun ban will be introduced.
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