Want to know why 22lr is hard to find?

[mtnrider]

Guys like this ...

http://www.armslist.com/posts/2458354/colorado-springs-colorado-ammo-for-trade--7-000---14-000-rounds-of--22lr-

Looks like he was one of the guys wiping out the new Bass Pro.

[rockhound]

is that a lot of .22???

[mtnrider]

is that a lot of .22???

Seeing as you can't find it anywhere, yes 14,000 rounds is a lot

[Portsider86]

No that's not a lot but he is a POS if he is scalping. I have that much or more but it is all for shooting. I've never paid over $14 per brick and never intend to.

[TAR31]

No that's not a lot but he is a POS if he is scalping. I have that much or more but it is all for shooting. I've never paid over $14 per brick and never intend to.

Guess you don't intend to ever buy any ever again. We will never see bricks for $14 again.

[ChunkyMonkey]

Seeing as you can't find it anywhere, yes 14,000 rounds is a lot

They are readily available.. maybe not as easy as couple years ago.. but they are out there.

Bulk..
http://www.lohmanarms.com/product_p/win22lr555hp.htm winchester 555 bulk for $33
http://www.ammosupplywarehouse.com/category/R220/22-RIMFIRE.html 5000 rounds for $600 <-- pretty good deal.

Couple weeks ago, I bought 3 bricks from walmart for $60 if I remember it correctly.

[Portsider86]

No I do not, I have plenty. $50 a brick is plain asinine.

[hunterhawk]

22 is not cheap anymore but I have found it the last 2 times I have gone to the gun store and buy it just because I can't reload it speaking of which I bought some federal 22 in their new cans... Kind of neat nitrogen sealed, weather and waterproof.... Just sucks everything is 300 some rounds and like I stated more expensive!

[brutal]

Guess you don't intend to ever buy any ever again. We will never see bricks for $14 again.


They are readily available.. maybe not as easy as couple years ago.. but they are out there.

Bulk..
http://www.lohmanarms.com/product_p/win22lr555hp.htm winchester 555 bulk for $33
http://www.ammosupplywarehouse.com/category/R220/22-RIMFIRE.html 5000 rounds for $600 <-- pretty good deal.

Couple weeks ago, I bought 3 bricks from walmart for $60 if I remember it correctly.


That's 12 cents a round!!! What a screw job.

If this seller wants $60 per thousand then someone will have to pony up an $840 M4 carbine.

Miss those days of 1.5 cents a round. Still have bricks from the summer of 2007 from Jensens and Wallymart that were that price-$5- before King Douche Face became our President. Those bricks are just collecting dust now- damn birch canoe tipped over that year and I lost all my guns in Boyd Lake. Bricks make great paperweights.

I tripped over three bricks of CCI mini-mag at Wally for $24.20 out the door three weeks ago. $0.08/rd

The WWB 9mm was $0.29/rd.

WWB .45ACP is $0.45/rd

That's the new normal.

[brutal]

They are readily available.. maybe not as easy as couple years ago.. but they are out there.

Bulk..
http://www.lohmanarms.com/product_p/win22lr555hp.htm winchester 555 bulk for $33


Couple weeks ago, I bought 3 bricks from walmart for $60 if I remember it correctly.

Due to the unprecedented volume of orders, the website may not be updated as frequently as we would like. ALMOST EVERYTHING IS ON BACK ORDER.

We are shipping many orders in 5 days or less. Most of these orders are small 1-3 products.

WE ARE TAKING BACK ORDERS, but have extended wait times. Below are estimated shipping times but these times might be longer or shorter depending on the product and the manufactures production.
Powder orders should ship 4 weeks or less except for a few popular powders like Varget which will probably take several months or possible longer.
Primers and other reloading supplies should ship in a few weeks or less. Small Rifle is the slowest still

Loaded ammo will probably be 10++ weeks.

*If you pay with a Debit Card your bank statement will show pending / hold for 3-7 days depending on your bank and you will not be able to use those Funds. After 3-7 days the hold will drop off if your order soes not ship, but your order will stay active*

Your credit card will be authorized for the purchase amount as soon as an order is placed. When your order is ready to ship we will collect payment. *If your order does not ship in 6 days your authorization on your credit card will fall off and we will call you or email you when your order is ready. We will then charge your credit card and ship the products out the same or next day.

We will call to advise the status of your order.

[ChunkyMonkey]

Due to the unprecedented volume of orders, the website may not be updated as frequently as we would like. ALMOST EVERYTHING IS ON BACK ORDER.

We are shipping many orders in 5 days or less. Most of these orders are small 1-3 products.

WE ARE TAKING BACK ORDERS, but have extended wait times. Below are estimated shipping times but these times might be longer or shorter depending on the product and the manufactures production.
Powder orders should ship 4 weeks or less except for a few popular powders like Varget which will probably take several months or possible longer.
Primers and other reloading supplies should ship in a few weeks or less. Small Rifle is the slowest still

Loaded ammo will probably be 10++ weeks.

*If you pay with a Debit Card your bank statement will show pending / hold for 3-7 days depending on your bank and you will not be able to use those Funds. After 3-7 days the hold will drop off if your order soes not ship, but your order will stay active*

Your credit card will be authorized for the purchase amount as soon as an order is placed. When your order is ready to ship we will collect payment. *If your order does not ship in 6 days your authorization on your credit card will fall off and we will call you or email you when your order is ready. We will then charge your credit card and ship the products out the same or next day.

We will call to advise the status of your order.

Got mine in 2 weeks in august

[Great-Kazoo]

Got mine in 2 weeks in august

Got mine 5 years ago in WM. $14 per 550 fed bulk pack. Some of the SA (55gr) 300 rd still has the $35.00 price tag on.

[Bailey Guns]

So this guy (and others like him) is the cause of the shortage of .22? I don't think so. Apparently the shortage is relative. He has plenty (as do I...I'm just not selling mine), others don't. So the guy bought ammo or acquired it somewhere, and wants to resell/trade it. I fail to see the problem. If you don't want to pay the price or make the trade then don't.

Maybe his dad died and left it to him. Maybe he was like me and owned a gun store and kept about 20k rounds when he closed it.

If he traded all 14k rounds for a $1k AR, that's 7 cents per round. Hardly the highest prices we've seen in the last year. It's just over 5.5 cents per round if he trades for an $850 AR. There might just be someone out there with too many ARs and not enough .22lr ammo...a perfect match.

You're either for the free market or you're not.

[dirtrulz]

There was a guy of arfcom who said him and his sons go through about 25,000 rounds of 22 a year between plinking and competitions. He finished by saying he had more than 10 years of ammo stored up. 250,000+ rounds of 22 would take up some space.

[HoneyBadger]

You're either for the free market or you're not.
Agreed.



i contacted him and offered him a fair price and I'll see how he responds.

Edit: he only wants to trade.

[newracer]

I still have about 10K right now. Bought most of it when it was ~$10 per brick. I doubt we will ever see it below $20 per brick again.

[Monky]

Damn.. I messed up and put CO springs.

[Aloha_Shooter]

I've got about 16K, mostly purchased from the CMP at $275/5000. It hurt my head to pay over $25 a brick but seemed like the right thing to do when crap .22 is going for $50-100 per brick at the gun shows ...

[hatidua]

You're either for the free market or you're not.

Capitalism, free market economics, and individual responsibility are popular in the abstract but remain theories that fall completely apart on gun forums when it comes to discussing ammo purchase procrastination. Supply/demand realities are deemed gouging by those that couldn't be bothered to put a little extra aside. Were it a one-off event, it'd be interesting. However, as it's essentially an event we see played out every four years, it's become mildly amusing.

Sit back, enjoy the ride, we'll see this all over again in Spring 2017 after the next election, count on it.

[rockhound]

Seeing as you can't find it anywhere, yes 14,000 rounds is a lot

i was being sarcastic, i don't think that is a lot, i have four kids, they can burn some .22

[merl]

Sit back, enjoy the ride, we'll see this all over again in Spring 2017 after the next election, count on it.

Here is to hoping for 2 years without some whack job killing a dozen random people for the fame. Maybe then there will be a lull allowing a restock.

(and 14k is a good amount of 22 but not "alot" if you buy it by the 10k case)

[Aloha_Shooter]

You're either for the free market or you're not.

One caveat to this in my mind. I disagree with scalping when the seller got a particularly good deal with the understanding that the original purchases were for personal use. My example here is the CMP: guns and ammo were made available at exceptionally good prices. Ammo prices rose when some scum bucket drove up to the loading dock and took every available box of ammo and promptly sold them off for substantial profit. I signed a statement saying I wasn't buying my CMP ammo (or Garands or Carbines) for resale so it's not.

[mtnrider]

One caveat to this in my mind. I disagree with scalping when the seller got a particularly good deal with the understanding that the original purchases were for personal use. My example here is the CMP: guns and ammo were made available at exceptionally good prices. Ammo prices rose when some scum bucket drove up to the loading dock and took every available box of ammo and promptly sold them off for substantial profit. I signed a statement saying I wasn't buying my CMP ammo (or Garands or Carbines) for resale so it's not.

I agree completely. I am all for free market but there comes a point when you are just taking advantage of a bad situation. For me it's about doing the right thing and having some integrity. I can never know for sure but given the types of 22 this guy has I can pretty much bet he was one of those guys at Bass pro going in and out the door time after time with arms full of 22 with no intention of using it himself.
Just like the guy I ran into at Wal Mart a few weeks back bragging on how many times he went in and grabbed 22lr. (Over 30,000 rounds only for profit). Pisses me off when I see some father and son that just want to go plink a few rounds only to find the self bare because of some greedy profiteer. Hopefully Karma will catch up with these people.

[Badger]

I'm confused. If this thread is designed as some sort of ruse then mods, please delete my comment. If its for real, then guess I'll stock up while my source is ridiculously abundant as usual and just roll on.

Badger

[kidicarus13]

Free markets and doing the right thing/integrity are mutually exclusive and not to be used in the same sentence.

I'll take "Spring 2017 for another run on ammo before President Clinton gets elected" for $1000 Alex.

[Bailey Guns]

One man's scalper/gouger is another man's supplier and savior in time of need. In a supply and demand market like we have there's no such thing as price gouging. You're either willing to pay a price for a product or you're not. If you don't buy the product it gives someone else the opportunity to buy it and you save your money for something else. If it doesn't sell at the asking price, the price is adjusted until it does sell. You're also free not to conduct business with that person or business in the future.

Your poor father and son example who don't have .22 ammo to go shoot will most likely have some next time there's a shortage if they've learned their lesson...or they won't. Nobody has the right to have ammo in any particular quantity or at any particular price with the exception of the amount that's for sale at the asking or agreed upon price. If you have the means and you're willing to pay the price, you buy it. If not...tough. I want a nice house in the middle of 1000 acres with my own shooting range. But the real estate market and my own marketable skills being what they are, guess what I don't have?

Yes. It really is that simple.

As to signing an agreement with CMP...then that's really not a free market transaction. The CMP set rules for a sale and they can choose to enforce those rules against that seller if they choose and if they're aware it's going on (did you or anyone else notify them of the "scalper's" activities?) and if the seller signed the same agreement. I've purchased 2 or 3 rifles from the CMP and sold all but one...the best one I wanted to keep. I never signed anything that said I couldn't resell the item(s) I bought. It does say it's for personal use. I personally used it until I found a rifle that I wanted more than the first one then sold it. I didn't violate any CMP agreement. I've also bought several cans of Greek '06 ammo. I decided I got too much and sold a couple. I made a few dollars on all of those sales. I don't feel guilty for doing it and don't think I violated the spirit of the CMP program because the persons who purchased the items were very happy with the items I had for sale at the price I was asking.

I don't like the fact that some ammo prices are very high and availability is very limited...at the time I could use some more .22WMR but that's not the point. The point is I understand economics when it comes to the (relatively) free market and the theory of supply and demand well enough that you can bet your ass when .22WMR is available again at a reasonable price (that would be a price I am willing to pay...not necessarily anyone else) I'll be stocking up if my means permit it.

Price gouging is a myth, pure and simple. If you don't understand and believe that then you don't have an understanding of how a free market and capitalism works. At all. Because that's it at it's very basic level.

[Bailey Guns]

Free markets and doing the right thing/integrity are mutually exclusive and not to be used in the same sentence.



Maybe, maybe not. It's all relative to how much one wants or needs something.

If you had an illness and were living in times of a disaster when you needed a life-saving medication and someone had that medication but wanted $X price for it and you didn't have it, you'd probably feel the seller lacked integrity and/or wasn't doing the right thing. If another guy came along with a child who had the same illness and needed the same medication and had the money and was willing to pay it he might feel he owed his child's life to the seller and thought he was the greatest person in the world.

Like I said...it's all relative.

[mtnrider]

I guess some of us have morals, some do not. It's that simple.

[Bailey Guns]

I guess some of us have morals, some do not. It's that simple.

Then why don't you take a stab at explaining how price controls and rationing fit into a free market economy? I'll patiently wait for your answer.

Additionally you could read some of the writings from people a lot more educated on the issue than you or I am. Thomas Sowell and Walter Williams would be a good place to start.

[Bailey Guns]

This isn't the first time this subject has been discussed here. There are always two sides...the side that argues from emotion because they "feel" things should be different and those that argue from a free market economy perspective. It always ends the same, too. Someone gets butt hurt.

[mtnrider]

Stab a brother in the back to make a profit. ...At least I know where you guys stand.

[Bailey Guns]

Stab a brother in the back to make a profit. ...At least I know where you guys stand.

So I guess that means you won't be rationally explaining how price controls and rationing fit into a free market economy? It's OK. You're not the first who can't do it. No need to be a drama queen about it.

You also seem unable to grasp some other very simple concepts: like the fact that I stated I don't like the high prices/high demand situation we have going on with ammo right now. You see this as an emotional issue because you don't like it and you willingly fail to understand the rationale behind it. Another sunshine patriot...a lot of that goes on around here.

[rockhound]

hmmm, i know that when the times allowed i certainly made some profit selling ammo, and will the next time, and i wont apologize for it, yeah i bought 2000 rounds for 300 and sell a 1000 for $200 when prices went up, did that alot, and now i have a lot of ammo that i paid very little for and when my kid pulls the trigger on his ar, it only costs me a few pennies of actual cost and not a damn dollar, if youbhave a head for business then you understand that,

[Bailey Guns]

hmmm, i know that when the times allowed i certainly made some profit selling ammo, and will the next time, and i wont apologize for it, yeah i bought 2000 rounds for 300 and a 1000 for $200 when prices went up, did that alot, and now i have a lot of ammo that i paid very little for and when my kid pulls the trigger on his ar, it only costs me a few pennies of actual cost and not a damn dollar, if youbhave a head for business then you understand that,

You bastard! You probably killed Kenny, too, with your price gouging.

[mtnrider]

like the fact that I stated I don't like the high prices/high demand situation we have going on with ammo right now.

Oh, I get it. "high demad" = artificial inflation do to profiteers. If it was just people buying ammo that actually use the ammo I guarantee the shortage would dissapear. It's the people hording it for profit that are causing the problem.

Anyway, I'm bored with this. We can agree to disagree.

[Great-Kazoo]

Stab a brother in the back to make a profit. ...At least I know where you guys stand.

2 different things. It would be stabbing you in the back IF i called you while shopping and said HEY wallyworld has 8 cases of X ammo. I know you were looking for some. Since you can't get here want me to grab it for you.
Now i have the ammo, meet with you and say, you know i can get 2x the price i paid. You pay me what everyone else will, or i'll sell it to someone else. After i told you the price. That's fucking someone you know over.
Besides the whole PROFIT / PRICE GOUGING THREAD has run it's course. Unless someone want's to archive search and BTT it. give it a rest.
OR next time those who disagree, post something in the TP forums, I'll expect you to sell it for the price you paid, or less, since it is used.

[Jamnanc]

You guys made me want to go to Walmart in the morning to get some ammo. Thanks, now my wife is gonna be pissed at me.... Again.

[sneakerd]

Word from the Jim.

[Great-Kazoo]

You guys made me want to go to Walmart in the morning to get some ammo. Thanks, now my wife is gonna be pissed at me.... Again.

which one and what time? i'll meet you and do fastbreak afterwards. Tell the spouse the money you" GOUGE" everyone with , is for one more present.

[mtnrider]

Another sunshine patriot...a lot of that goes on around here.

No wonder the liberals are over running us. It's every man for himself here no matter what the cost.

[Bailey Guns]

Oh, I get it. "high demad" = artificial inflation do to profiteers. If it was just people buying ammo that actually use the ammo I guarantee the shortage would dissapear. It's the people hording it for profit that are causing the problem.

Anyway, I'm bored with this. We can agree to disagree.

Well, at least you got part of it right regarding the "high demand = artificial inflation". And yes, people inflate prices to make a profit. It's called capitalism and if you'd learn a little about it you'd learn why it's a good thing overall. It might not be good for you at a given moment in time but it's good overall and it's the best system in the world for making things available to those who need them. But you're wrong (at least in my situation) about the other part. I buy and store a shitload of ammo when the price is right for me because there will be times when AMMO WILL BE IN SHORT SUPPLY AND HIGH PRICED.

And you still can't provide a rational example of price controls and rationing fitting into a free market economy. It has nothing to do with you being bored. It has to do with you willfully not educating yourself on basic economics. Well, that and the fact there isn't a rational example of how those things work efficiently in a free market economy.

And BTW...disagreement and ignorance are not the same.

[Great-Kazoo]

Word from the Jim.

We know the ones who bitch the loudest sell for top dollar, almost every time. I'd link a few current and archived ones but there would be a whole lot of butt hurt. Want it, buy it for that price, or be patient.
You know what, fuk em, i might do it as a Christmas present to myself. Maybe even top JM's ban time [ROFL2]

[Bailey Guns]

We know the ones who bitch the loudest sell for top dollar, almost every time. I'd link a few current and archived ones but there would be a whole lot of butt hurt. Want it, buy it for that price, or be patient.
You know what, fuk em, i might do it as a Christmas present to myself. Maybe even top JM's ban time [ROFL2]

Yeah...I remember of few of those "you guys are a bunch of price gougers!" suddenly having a change of heart and deciding their run-of-the-mill DPMS AR was worth $1900.

[Great-Kazoo]

Yeah...I remember of few of those "you guys are a bunch of price gougers!" suddenly having a change of heart and deciding their run-of-the-mill DPMS AR was worth $1900.

No IIRC they were selling reman 223 for $850 per 1K. The Obama voters were selling AR's for $1900. OOPS. someone just took offense[LOL]

[brutal]

Let's not forget the "look at this guy (implied asshole) on CL selling "_fill in the blank_" for $XXX" then getting busted on gunbroker doing the same.

Not naming any names, and everyone is free to make a buck, but that's the definition of the pot calling the kettle black and was kinda shitty.

Whining about what someone else is selling something for, when you have zero clue about the circumstances is lame.

[TAR31]

Stop blaming the people asking ridiculous prices and start blaming the people that are paying them. PRICES WILL NOT COME DOWN UNTIL PEOPLE STOP PAYING THE INFLATED PRICES.

[rockhound]

I seem to recall a story about an ant and a grasshopper,

Plan ahead,

[kidicarus13]

PRICES WILL NOT COME DOWN UNTIL PEOPLE STOP PAYING THE INFLATED PRICES.

And the cycle is complete... People will continue to pay inflated prices until said people can learn to plan ahead and stock up on ammo when it is less expensive so they will not be forced to buy ammo at inflated prices during times like these. If someone's urge to shoot outweighs their ability to plan ahead than...

[sneakerd]

Just to provide a more current example of what I call "FAIR" 22LR pricing and availablility. Also to counter old commentary about how high FL prices are (bull!). We got in a number of cases of Remington Golden Hi-vel hollowpoint a week or 2 ago in the 525 round boxes. We sold it by the box for $29.95 each until they were gone. That was yesterday. 525 rounds of GOOD 22lr for 29.95. Not bad in today's market. Especially after the literal thief prices I heard about from the gunshow.

[Dave_L]

I won't hesitate to buy .22LR for $.05/round these days. Average seems to be around $.10-.12/round. I'll still buy a couple boxes here and there at that price just because it's harder to find. But for bulk, I don't buy it unless it's in that $.05/round range.

[RCCrawler]

What I find crazy is if I was running a company and had a machine that produced 1000 widgets an hour and I was already running it 24/7 and demand was WAY beyond what I could produce I would bring another machine online, and another, and another.

[Big Wall]

Maybe but...

How long will the demand last? Will you make enough to pay for the equipment? Will the demand still be there once the equipment is built, installed and running properly?

All big risks that could close your business.

[merl]

What I find crazy is if I was running a company and had a machine that produced 1000 widgets an hour and I was already running it 24/7 and demand was WAY beyond what I could produce I would bring another machine online, and another, and another.

Even if you knew the demand was temporary?

[sneakerd]

What HBAR said is exactly what's happening, that is the reason for "rationing". We had a number of people who wanted to buy all we had, then got shitty when they were told they couldn't. I actually almost got into a fight at Walmart last Sunday. Stopped by there to check their ammo, saw some Tula 45, got my 3 boxes, then another guy stepped up and started taking all of the boxes out of the case, the employee told him "3 box limit". Guy got shitty, it continued, I blew a gasket backing up the Walmart employee. Guy actually asked me if I wanted to step outside before employee called security. Said just about everything to this guy that I wish I could say sometimes from behind the counter when I am at work. It was cathartic.

[Snowman78]

Even if you knew the demand was temporary?


It has been over a year now...

[Snowman78]

What I find crazy is if I was running a company and had a machine that produced 1000 widgets an hour and I was already running it 24/7 and demand was WAY beyond what I could produce I would bring another machine online, and another, and another.

+1

[Bailey Guns]

What I find crazy is if I was running a company and had a machine that produced 1000 widgets an hour and I was already running it 24/7 and demand was WAY beyond what I could produce I would bring another machine online, and another, and another.

So it's early 2013 and instead of widgets you're building AR receivers and/or rifles and there's this tremendous demand and you can't keep up. So you go out and invest MILLIONS OF DOLLARS in new equipment, people to operate the equipment and assemble the rifles, you've probably had to build or otherwise acquire additional space to place the equipment and people, your supply chain of parts and other necessities has grown, etc.

Now it's Nov/Dec 2013 and some retailers are offering Colt 6920 rifles for $895. Now in addition to MILLIONS OF DOLLARS of new equipment that's sitting idle you've got all the inventory of rifles you can't sell and parts you don't need to build rifles you can't sell in the additional manufacturing space you no longer need and you've had to lay off numerous workers who're now collecting unemployment.

There are many reasons why companies don't follow your line of thinking. It just isn't that easy.

[Post Toastie]

There are many reasons why companies don't follow your line of thinking. It just isn't that easy.

Hear, Hear!

[RCCrawler]

I totally understand there are many other factors in play, but it's been long over a year since .22lr has been hard to get. I'm not totally sure what is all involved with producing .22 ammo, but I'd think adding another production line would be a wise choice.

[Great-Kazoo]

I totally understand there are many other factors in play, but it's been long over a year since .22lr has been hard to get. I'm not totally sure what is all involved with producing .22 ammo, but I'd think adding another production line would be a wise choice.

Which is why those in the business are doing what they can to maintain a moderate supply. Not knowing the logistics of the mfg raw materials. it would be foolish to say , buy more machinery to make more, so i can have it. I doubt most, if not all mfg have the actual space, power, let alone skilled employees to "just buy another machine"

[Dave_L]

Why would you want to overstock the supply and eliminate the constant demand?

[merl]

I totally understand there are many other factors in play, but it's been long over a year since .22lr has been hard to get. I'm not totally sure what is all involved with producing .22 ammo, but I'd think adding another production line would be a wise choice.

http://www.cci-ammunition.com/education/faqs.aspx

Looks like CCI agrees with you, there is enough demand to warrant more machinery.


Q: Why can't you just make more ammunition?
A: Our facilities operate 24-hours a day. We are continually making process improvements to increase our efficiency and investing in capital and personnel where we have sustained demand. We are bringing additional capacity online again this year.

[RCCrawler]

Why would you want to overstock the supply and eliminate the constant demand?

It doesn't matter if you're selling ammo or cheeseburgers if you have customers standing at the door with money in hand waiting to buy and you can't give them what they need you are leaving money on the table. I'd rather get to the point where some retailers are able to keep some ammo in stock, that way you know everyone's needs are being met.

[two shoes]

I have kids that LOVE to shoot. We have cut back a lot of the "blasting" sessions and focused on making good shots. I hate to admit it, but I was not prepared for .22 ammo to be difficult or expensive to find. I am not going to pay 2-3x prices for it, but I have spent 1.5x more than it was going for.

The grab and resell is the nature of supply and demand. My pocket book does not like it, but I understand the how and why. I like free markets, even when I am on the wrong side of it. I consider every penny above $0.07 a round my "stoopid tax" for not having enough to begin with. Some lessons in life are free, you can pay for them 2-3 cents more at a time...

[Dave_L]

It doesn't matter if you're selling ammo or cheeseburgers if you have customers standing at the door with money in hand waiting to buy and you can't give them what they need you are leaving money on the table. I'd rather get to the point where some retailers are able to keep some ammo in stock, that way you know everyone's needs are being met.

Except you're not losing customers like you do in the cheeseburger scenario. With cheeseburgers, they can walk down the street and you risk them finding a new place they prefer. I haven't seen someone pass up ammo yet because they had to wait last time.

Profits are maxed out for these companies. Could they make more? Probably. But that "probably" comes with a risk of things slowing down in X months and then what? Dumped a million dollars in (I have no clue what the cost would be) to make another 300K? Now, if it would only take 6 months of production to pay back the investment cost, I would probably do it at this point. But things are cyclical and business's were probably just making sure things would be sustained before jumping head first into the pool.

[Colorado_Outback]

Hello? Yeah, could I get another one of those million dollar ammo making machines? It will be here Tuesday!? Awesome.

Not.

It takes a lot of time and money to setup a line like that. Not to mention the additional employees to run it etc.

We have been over this in another thread not that long ago..

[TheWeeze]

I could see it right now, they put in their capital investment, ramp up production, and get everybody all the ammo their little hearts desire, then when everybody has thousands and thousands of rounds of ammo the bottom falls out and they have to shut that line down because they've over stocked the shelves and can't sell the stuff for pennies on the dollar. All the money they invested in increasing production is now sitting on a line that won't be used again for 4 years.

[Bailey Guns]

It doesn't matter if you're selling ammo or cheeseburgers if you have customers...

Yes, it does. The infrastructure, supplies, personnel expertise, raw materials and space to manufacture ammo is far more expensive than cheeseburgers. I doubt another grill and a person to operate it costs anywhere near what a new ammo manufacturing facility costs.

[Great-Kazoo]

Hello? Yeah, could I get another one of those million dollar ammo making machines? It will be here Tuesday!? Awesome.

Not.

It takes a lot of time and money to setup a line like that. Not to mention the additional employees to run it etc.

We have been over this in another thread not that long ago..

reply #61 as well as that other thread.
I doubt most, if not all mfg have the actual space, power, let alone skilled employees to "just buy another machine"

[Colorado_Outback]

reply #61 as well as that other thread.
I doubt most, if not all mfg have the actual space, power, let alone skilled employees to "just buy another machine"


Congratulations?

[buffalobo]

I don't think they are as worried about over producing the market as they are the potential for govt regulation or legislation which could adversely affect the market in a short time.

Manufacturers are looking long term when they make these kinds of capital investments. They have no intention of getting their "million" bucks back in a year. The returns on that kind of investment is spread over several years.

[Circuits]

Even if an ammo company could miracle up another million dollar ammo machine, what good does it do them when they can't miracle up more brass, powder and bullets? All the brass powder and bullet companies now have to go miracle up more of their own machines?

If it were easy or even financially prudent to simply ramp up capacity, all of these companies would be doing so. Where capital expenditure is involved, it takes years to build and install large amounts of capacity, so it takes years of sustained increased demand to justify expansion. Best you can expect a year long panic driven spike in demand to do to major manufacturers is cause them to ramp up their projections a little bit, and maybe add on a little more extra capacity than they had planned to do next time they upgraded or serviced their physical plant.

[hatidua]

While skilled labor and raw materials might be hard to come by, "making back the investment" would not take very long at all right now. CMP, all by themselves, has 35,000,000 rounds of Aguila .22 on order at the moment and I'd hazard a guess that 95% of the population has never once bought ammo from CMP which makes their 35M order a proverbial drop in the bucket in terms of nationwide demand.

[screagle2]

I totally understand there are many other factors in play, but it's been long over a year since .22lr has been hard to get. I'm not totally sure what is all involved with producing .22 ammo, but I'd think adding another production line would be a wise choice.


Sounds pretty simple.

Write up your business plan and if is that good, mist any bank will fund it. At today's interest rates it's a loch right

Has everyone dismissed any number of sudden knee jerk regulations the government could put in place to affective lay curb the ability to purchase said ammunition?

We would all like to think that can't take place, but I am willing to wager all of these companies have this in the back of their minds. Trying to be ready to address worse case scenarios, is inherent in all successful businesses. There are major changes being discussed now, as to how the IRS is going to address investments in hard assets also. Those changes are planned for 2014......

it always looks easy from way outside.

[SamuraiCO]

We done yet..? I need to get up early to buy my allotment of ammo to resell on gunbroker. /sarc off

I'm glad I reload.


On the bright side at least gas is dipping down below $3 per gallon.

[Great-Kazoo]

We done yet..? I need to get up early to buy my allotment of ammo to resell on gunbroker. /sarc off

I'm glad I reload.


On the bright side at least gas is dipping down below $3 per gallon.


22lr ?

[Kmanbay]

What I am mostly reading is frustration. The prices will stay high until the numbers of people willing to pay the high prices to the “gougers” stop doing so. At that time the ones who were making a big profit will begin to have an overstock problem and their prices will tumble as they try to unload it before the other “Gougers” do. The stores will be able to get their stock back in order at that time.

The mentality so many have is the same one we see when a storm is coming. Everyone without an extra can or two of food, eggs, milk, Oreos or bottled water go to the store and clean it out. The normal supply and restock didn’t’ change, the consumers’ behavior did.

Remember apparently normal people get into fist fights over a damn tickle me Elmo doll or pepper spray and beat one another up for a set of $1 dish towels on sale.

Now imagine the same human conditioned response of a real or imagined threat/fear they will need mounds of ammo to stay alive in the coming lean years; and what they will do in order to “save” themselves from the tyranny of government? The behavior is the same; just the panic has continued over months instead of days. The difference is the perceived length and fear of a storm of government tyranny has a longer shelf life than snow.

BTW King Soopers will have more groceries on the next truck, just like the ammo suppliers will have when people stop panic buying. In fact I would wager the prices will drop because of an oversupply “problem” at that time.
Simple supply and demand.

[Great-Kazoo]

What I am mostly reading is frustration. The prices will stay high until the numbers of people willing to pay the high prices to the “gougers” stop doing so. At that time the ones who were making a big profit will begin to have an overstock problem and their prices will tumble as they try to unload it before the other “Gougers” do. The stores will be able to get their stock back in order at that time.

The mentality so many have is the same one we see when a storm is coming. Everyone without an extra can or two of food, eggs, milk, Oreos or bottled water go to the store and clean it out. The normal supply and restock didn’t’ change, the consumers’ behavior did.

Remember apparently normal people get into fist fights over a damn tickle me Elmo doll or pepper spray and beat one another up for a set of $1 dish towels on sale.

Now imagine the same human conditioned response of a real or imagined threat/fear they will need mounds of ammo to stay alive in the coming lean years; and what they will do in order to “save” themselves from the tyranny of government? The behavior is the same; just the panic has continued over months instead of days. The difference is the perceived length and fear of a storm of government tyranny has a longer shelf life than snow.

BTW King Soopers will have more groceries on the next truck, just like the ammo suppliers will have when people stop panic buying. In fact I would wager the prices will drop because of an oversupply “problem” at that time.
Simple supply and demand.

Someone believes in Santa

[hatidua]

.22 is in short supply because I bought it all.

[Neene2]

[ChunkyMonkey]

.22 is in short supply because I bought it all.

[Neene2]

No u didnt. I still have few thousands listed on armslist :)

[brutal]

Gouging aside, most new in-store/online prices we're seeing right now are the new normal.

Component prices have gone up as the manufacturers have warned about for two years.

Get used to it.

[BlasterBob]

If the ammo is priced too high for you, do not buy it and just be patient as those high prices (gouging prices) will probably come down in time. That is until "Big Brother" decides to place a new ammo tax on each and every round which may even include all ammo components. Also, don't be too surprised if someday, before too long, there will be an attempt to initiate some type of BGC placed on ammo sales too.
[panic]

[HBARleatherneck]

actually there already is a tax on ammo and Im sure they are taxed in many more ways.

The FAET applies an 11% tax rate on ammunition

[wctriumph]

Well, it is coming down a little, there is an advert on Armslist for Remington Thunderbolt for "only" $3.00 per box. I can remember buying this at at my local gun shop and Walmart for $4.95 to $5.95 a brick. I bought a brick once and I never bought another box of Thunderbolt again. Must be the worst .22LR ever made.

[Great-Kazoo]

If the ammo is priced too high for you, do not buy it and just be patient as those high prices (gouging prices) will probably come down in time. That is until "Big Brother" decides to place a new ammo tax on each and every round which may even include all ammo components. Also, don't be too surprised if someday, before too long, there will be an attempt to initiate some type of BGC placed on ammo sales too.
[panic]

NY SAFE act. Same with CT

Connecticut’s ‘Ammunition Eligibility Certificate’ Defined (http://www.nationalreview.com/the-feed/344463/connecticuts-ammunition-eligibility-certificate-defined)

as of October 1, 2013 there will be no legal sales of ammunition or magazines to any Connecticut resident who has not passed a national criminal background check, and is in good standing with regard to such check

[kidicarus13]

NY SAFE act. Same with CT

Connecticut’s ‘Ammunition Eligibility Certificate’ Defined (http://www.nationalreview.com/the-feed/344463/connecticuts-ammunition-eligibility-certificate-defined)

as of October 1, 2013 there will be no legal sales of ammunition or magazines to any Connecticut resident who has not passed a national criminal background check, and is in good standing with regard to such check

Is a fee charged for the check? (I'm sure) Do they report the number of rounds you are buying. Just wondering what life will be like in Colorado in the future.

[BlasterBob]

actually there already is a tax on ammo and Im sure they are taxed in many more ways.

The FAET applies an 11% tax rate on ammunition




OK then, in that case I'll say still another NEW tax or an additional NEW tax that has not been levied yet. They aren't finished screwing around with us yet on taxing everything associated with hunting and/or shooting.

[merl]

OK then, in that case I'll say still another NEW tax or an additional NEW tax that has not been levied yet. They aren't finished screwing around with us yet on taxing everything associated with hunting and/or shooting.

Be glad we have TABOR. You think they would have stopped at a fee for a BG check if they didn't have to put a new tax up for a statewide vote?

[Great-Kazoo]

Is a fee charged for the check? (I'm sure) Do they report the number of rounds you are buying. Just wondering what life will be like in Colorado in the future.

do some research on the NY SAFE act and CT's ammo permit. Scarey isn't the word for it.

[hatidua]

do some research on the NY SAFE act and CT's ammo permit. Fair warning of what's eventually coming down the pike isn't the word for it.

fixed.

[Kmanbay]

I finished writing my post at 0400, so my explanation wasn't as well developed as it could have been.

BTW even though it looked like it; I wasn't talking about the prices at King Soopers coming down.

What I was saying is right now the prices on 22 are too high, but people are still buying it. When the commotion wanes the ammo manufacturers will still be sending ammo to the shelves at record pace and the crazy gouger prices will drop to a more reasonable rate. When the stores shelves and storage begin to fill they will drop the prices just like the "gougers", because there will be competition again.

Someone earlier in the thread made a comment about people selling <$700 DPMS rifles during the scare for double what they cost beforehand. Now you can buy a bnib Colt for under $900. The same principle applies; overcharge with the "shortage" and make bank. When people aren't so emotional the prices will dip.




Someone believes in Santa

[ChunkyMonkey]

I finished writing my post at 0400, so my explanation wasn't as well developed as it could have been.

BTW even though it looked like it; I wasn't talking about the prices at King Soopers coming down.

What I was saying is right now the prices on 22 are too high, but people are still buying it. When the commotion wanes the ammo manufacturers will still be sending ammo to the shelves at record pace and the crazy gouger prices will drop to a more reasonable rate. When the stores shelves and storage begin to fill they will drop the prices just like the "gougers", because there will be competition again.

Someone earlier in the thread made a comment about people selling <$700 DPMS rifles during the scare for double what they cost beforehand. Now you can buy a bnib Colt for under $900. The same principle applies; overcharge with the "shortage" and make bank. When people aren't so emotional the prices will dip.

Counting in the fact that since 2010, gun ownership in US household has increased by almost 20%. I dont have any data on the ammo production, but surely more gun owners equals to more ammo consumption. Other factors are that US is still fighting 2 low intensity wars, DHS is building up its own rather large armed force. 5.56 prices went skyrocket due to these, and sure enough market for .22 sport guns doubled. How many AR15 clone, MP5, ak clones in .22 being introduced the past 3-5 years.

I remember when they used to make fun of your pea shooter in the range.. now from my personal observation, I see more and more .22 on the range.

I missed those days where shooting through 1 or 2 brick of 22lr costed less than your lunch. :(


http://www.marketwatch.com/story/gun-ownership-in-us-soars-gallup-2011-10-27


MARKET PULSE (http://www.marketwatch.com/Search?mp=91&rs=true)Archives (http://www.marketwatch.com/Search?mp=91&rs=true)Oct. 27, 2011, 12:47 p.m. EDT
Gun ownership in U.S. soars: Gallup









CHICAGO (MarketWatch) -- Gun-ownership levels in the U.S. have risen sharply over the past few years, reaching their highest point since 1993. According to a Gallup poll, 47% of American adults report that they have a firearm on their property, up from 41% a year ago and 42% a year before that. The poll also found that public support for gun rights is at an all-time high, which could have affected results, reflecting "a change in Americans' comfort with publicly stating that they have a gun as much as it reflects a real uptick in gun ownership," Gallup noted. By political affiliation, Republicans are more likely than Democrats to say they have a gun in their household -- 55% vs. 40% -- although "this partisan gap is narrower than that seen in recent years," Gallup said.

[Great-Kazoo]

I finished writing my post at 0400, so my explanation wasn't as well developed as it could have been.

BTW even though it looked like it; I wasn't talking about the prices at King Soopers coming down.

What I was saying is right now the prices on 22 are too high, but people are still buying it. When the commotion wanes the ammo manufacturers will still be sending ammo to the shelves at record pace and the crazy gouger prices will drop to a more reasonable rate. When the stores shelves and storage begin to fill they will drop the prices just like the "gougers", because there will be competition again.

Someone earlier in the thread made a comment about people selling <$700 DPMS rifles during the scare for double what they cost beforehand. Now you can buy a bnib Colt for under $900. The same principle applies; overcharge with the "shortage" and make bank. When people aren't so emotional the prices will dip.

As long as you want to keep that belief alive, more power to you. By the time it levels out we will be doing another Christmas thread. Good of you to keep a positive outlook on it.

[kidicarus13]

What I was saying is right now the prices on 22 are too high, but people are still buying it. When the commotion wanes the ammo manufacturers will still be sending ammo to the shelves at record pace and the crazy gouger prices will drop to a more reasonable rate. When the stores shelves and storage begin to fill they will drop the prices just like the "gougers", because there will be competition again.

I would agree. There will be a time when .22 prices stabilize at lower than current prices but they will shoot up again when talks of the 2016 Democratic nominee is everywhere in the media.

[Kmanbay]

Jim,


I too remember shooting a brick of 22 for about the same amount as my lunch, and when you could regularly pick up 223 for under $4 a box or a box of 357 mag for about $8-12 a box too. I know those days are gone forever. I guess I am in memory lane now :)

Thankfully I am not in the ultra low ammo panic buy group, or standing in line crowd. I know several people who didn't make hay when the sun was shining and are currently in catch up mode.


BTW- My name is Karl, nice to meet you.


Kidicarus,

I completely agree about 2016, if we elect another progressive/liberal/anti-American/gun hater schmuck to the White House we can expect that to be a re-run of the previous 5 plus years. I would predict it would be even worse then. So the next time the sun shines it will be time to store more ammo cans of whatever flavor your guns like.


Karl