Police Issue Ammo for CCW?

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

Took the class, got the cert ;)

Heard it in the class, and before, that it is wise to carry factory ammo, and even the ammo carried by the local cops in case there ever is a shoot.

In particular, what does Denver PD use?
In general, what does the State Police use?

I thought between the two I'd find one I like. Looking specifically for 9mm, but might carry 40SW and 45ACP from time to time.

I did some searches, but couldn't find anything?

Thanks!

[gravedigger]

I'm not sure what the police carry, but here is a comparison of some 9mm rounds. http://frag.110mb.com/ It might be useful in helping you decide which ammo you want to carry, if you are going with 9mm.

[Colorado Osprey]

Remember that shooting in Colorado Springs where that guy shot that drunk young adult breaking/entering into his home after making several verbal life threats as well? It made the national news a couple of months ago.

He shot that guy with 38 special Federal Nyclad FBI loads.
These aren't even available to the public any more.

There was no mention of the ammo he used.

When I was working LE, we provided out own ammo.(kind of dates me huh?)
With that history I have never failed to load any ammo I want in any firearm for self defense.(usually premium personal defense ammo)

I can just imagine on the stand some attorney asking what bullets were used.
My response...."I don't know, the ones that fit that caliber gun, I'm not even sure which bullets were in the gun." (the truth, by the way)


Sorry, off topic.

Springs PD is/was using a Win Ranger with the Black Talon bulllet at least last time I checked
I believe so was Monument and Fountain/Widefield/Security..(not 100% on those)

Many departments use Win Ranger(multiple bullets), Federal Hydra-Shock, CCI Gold Dots, Remington Golden Saber.
The point is any off the shelf premium ammo, and you'll be fine.

I'm not sure if any department is using Cor-Bon... those might be considered Super-mamma-jamma bullets...Bwa-hahahah

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

I was mainly just looking for a starting point. The gun I'll use for CCW has only seen FMJ rounds, so if I have to start somewhere, I thought it would be there. Damn, that HP stuff gets complicated quickly, at least for me. Thanks Gravedigger for the link. I think I've seen that before, but I have it saved now.

[car-15]

some good info here, I use doubletap ammo with the gold dot bullet in all my sd situation weapons. you will be hard pressed to find a better performing ammo imho. their link below also.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=26028
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19887
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19914
http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/index.php?cPath=21&osCsid=1119cf76f3c4a4476526dcf5219143ee

[dmeis]

CSP uses Speer Gold-Dot...

[DanaT]

Best to carry factory both for reliability and liability. Lawyers can and will make the argument that reloads are "superomfgwtfbbq" bullets designed to demolish buildings with a single shot and kill godzilla, and that your a really crazy guy that makes munitions in his garage. Only one of these is true, of course. In some cases (10mm light reloads) it can be hard for them to make that argument.

But, with factory, its someone else's ass on the line when it comes to ammo.

I keep hearing this internet "myth" that has been passed on Masaad Ayoob in gun mags.

Where is a court case that resulted in a criminal conviction (that otherwise would not have been a conviction) because of hand loaded ammo? If there is no court case, then this is just passed on rubbish. Tell a lie (or a point of view) often enough and it become true.

-Dana

[Irving]

Has there ever been a case of someone defending themselves, and hitting another person? Because I've never seen one. The only time I've ever seen a story about someone shooting through a wall, was the time that illegal Mexican ran outside on Cinco De Mayo and shot his .357 mag at a street light and killed a lady when the round went through her wall.

[DanaT]

I see that it may be beyond reliable pressure levels.

But as far as "not being relaible", I think that I have more confidence in some of my handloads being reliable than factory stuff. Why? Well, I can afford to shoot more of it.

For example, WIn 127gr +p+ SXT fires out of my pistol right at 1300ft/sec. However, I don't have endless supplies of the SXT and even worse don't have reasonable price leads on replacement ammo.

I have worked up a handload that fires a 124gr Golden Saber HP at about 1250ft/sec out of the same pistol (and its not overpressure). Because I can buy Golden Saber bullets for just a little more than FMJ (like $60 per 500) I can shoot lots of these. I can test functionality much more than limited suypply police ammo.

So I have debunked the reliability concerns.

It keeps getting stated a "liability". What liability and where are the court cases to show this?

Then you say ammo needs to be 100ft-lbs less than Double Tap ammo? Isn't Doubletap factory ammo?

The 165gr Double Tap GS that I have fired moves along around 1380 ft/sec for nearly 700ft-lbs. So I should use ammo that is around 600 ft-lbs? The closest I have found is Winchester Silver tip at 535ft-lb. However, using a 165gr GS and 9.7gr of Power Pistol, I have acheived about 625ft-lbs. It functions well. Why would this ammo be any more of a liability than the Doubletap?

That said, for pushing max power in 10mm i like using DT ammo because they have done pressure testing.

If I miss with DT ammo, I miss with Win SilverTip, or I miss with my reloads whcih fall between the two and hit a bystander, I think I have issues either way.

Also, many times extra velocity from HP ammo creates less penetration.

-Dana

[mrgreencom]

Are the Police around here still using 9mm? My friend said they're switching to .40 S&W, but that didn't seem right to me. I'm looking to have a gun or at least some ammo in the primary police caliber.

[Bailey Guns]

I keep hearing this internet "myth" that has been passed on Masaad Ayoob in gun mags.

Where is a court case that resulted in a criminal conviction (that otherwise would not have been a conviction) because of hand loaded ammo? If there is no court case, then this is just passed on rubbish. Tell a lie (or a point of view) often enough and it become true.

-Dana

I don't think it's an issue of being prosecuted criminally so much as held civilly liable.

However...

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=2129976&postcount=140

...there are your court cases. I'm not an Ayoob fan by any means. But he's provided what you've asked for.

Personally, I simply believe using factory ammo shuts the door on many potential arguments or issues in a civil trial before they can be seriously considered.

[mikeh1911]

Denver carries Speer Gold Dot. Any good major factory hollow point made for self defense will do the job. After the FBI shoot out in Miami in 1986 the major manufacturers started doing a better job of making a dependable hollow point. The FBI set up tests for all the different possibilities. Going through heavy clothing, drywall, vehicle glass, light clothing and more. Find the latest FBI test and see what they found. Winchester, Remington, Federal, and Speer all make a good self defense rounds. Don't worry about ft lbs of energy or velocity. Worry about the ability to penetrate 12 - 18 inches. Choose one of these major manufacturers and buy two boxes of the ammo you want to carry. Shoot one box through the gun to make sure it is 100% reliable in your gun. If not, go find another brand and make sure it works in your gun. Save the second box for your social carry. Every year go buy another box of ammo and shoot the old. If the ammo manufacturer has changed bullets, repeat the same thing you did the last year. $50 -$60 a year is cheap insurance to make sure your ammo works in your gun.

Just my two cents and worth every penny you paid for it.

[bjl913]

Denver carries Speer Gold Dot. Any good major factory hollow point made for self defense will do the job. After the FBI shoot out in Miami in 1986 the major manufacturers started doing a better job of making a dependable hollow point. The FBI set up tests for all the different possibilities. Going through heavy clothing, drywall, vehicle glass, light clothing and more. Find the latest FBI test and see what they found. Winchester, Remington, Federal, and Speer all make a good self defense rounds. Don't worry about ft lbs of energy or velocity. Worry about the ability to penetrate 12 - 18 inches. Choose one of these major manufacturers and buy two boxes of the ammo you want to carry. Shoot one box through the gun to make sure it is 100% reliable in your gun. If not, go find another brand and make sure it works in your gun. Save the second box for your social carry. Every year go buy another box of ammo and shoot the old. If the ammo manufacturer has changed bullets, repeat the same thing you did the last year. $50 -$60 a year is cheap insurance to make sure your ammo works in your gun.

Just my two cents and worth every penny you paid for it.

What he said on all accounts. Pick a good factory load, and make sure it functions! Stay away from reloads(for the reasons already said). and Practice Practice Practice!!!!

Im carying 147 grain Hornaday TAPs in my P99, and 200+P Corbon in my P220

I like the TAPs because they use a low flash propelant(I work at night), and have a bonded core, which helps them stay together.

I like the corbons for the CDI factor of throwing a +P coffee mug at the same speeds as a 9mm! [Coffee] these things are huge!

now-a-days, stay away from the hydra shock... they have expansion problems when going through heavier clothing, and they fragment on windshields(confirmed by a co-worker of mine... how do you miss a suspect at 10 yards? put a windshield in front of your hydrashock! there were 0 fragments of the round recovered...) Hydrashock is old news, there are alot more modern choices out there that have solved some of these issues!

[CrufflerSteve]

The ammo issue is really interesting with current shortages. I have a couple of 380 pocket pistols and good luck finding ammo. I can't even find JHP bullets out there. I have a lot of brass and hard cast lead bullets in that size.

I'm glad I stocked up on 357 SIG and 9mm awhile ago. I have factory load JHP's in both and lots of reloading components for practice.

Steve

[Phanatic]

According to the officer I talked to in Aurora they carry Winchester SXT's. I carry Winchester Ranger or Hornady XTP's in Tap, Custom or Double Tap.