What's your thoughts on this?

[Limited GM]

I'm a mod on a motorcycle board and one of the members is a LEO in CA. Allegedly a Marine/Sniper during Desert Storm. He's posted pics of uniform so I know he's still LE. He use to have a sig line pic of Carlos Hathcock, ok that's cool, but now he has this emblem......


Whats your translation. Mine has my blood boiling.

[PSS]

The ss appears to be used by the scout sniper culture. Right or worng I personally don't care.

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Military/2012/0210/Nazi-flag-incident-puts-culture-of-Marine-snipers-in-spotlight

http://thepatriotperspective.wordpress.com/2012/02/13/revisited-yet-again-usmc-scout-sniper-story-started-by/

[Limited GM]

the nordic runes have been used by Marine Corps scout snipers forever. It predates the nazi usage. I know many who have the brand.
The runes and the swastika long predate modern germany. Unfortunately now those two symbols will forever be tied to a monster and his countrymen.

Agreed as the historical comments. My issue is with what followed and was associated with it, as a cop or soldier, I view it as poor form. Add on that he's the hunter of gunmen....and I begin to be concerned who the gunmen are, in today's climate.

Anyone picking up what I'm putting down?

[RonMexico]

I agree with you. I personally would have NEVER EVER picked that symbol. I personally wouldnt allow it to continue as I believe it reflects poorly on the Corps. I would think a cop would watch the kind of things he puts on the internet. (what forum)

I disagree that it reflects poorly on the Corps, it's tradition and it will always be a symbol of unit pride and honor. Snipers are HOG( hunter of gunmen) and guys in the pipeline/Plt are known as PIG( professionally instructed gunmen) until they pass SS school . When you run across a true SS he will almost always wear his hogs tooth around his neck.

[blacklabel]

I don't agree with it, think it's poor in taste but I don't see the need to change it.

[MarkCO]

I disagree that it reflects poorly on the Corps, it's tradition and it will always be a symbol of unit pride and honor. Snipers are HOG( hunter of gunmen) and guys in the pipeline/Plt are known as PIG( professionally instructed gunmen) until they pass SS school . When you run across a true SS he will almost always wear his hogs tooth around his neck.

This is accurate. It is a culture and the slogan "Hunter of Gunmen" is a well known slogan for the Marines SS school. Realize that if your guy truly has gone through Marine Sniper school, he is one of the elite, and should be smart enough to not put that kind of stuff out on a public forum. Remember the old addage about snipers in general...those who truly did won't glorify it.

[james_bond_007]

Found an interesting read by Kent Gooch, Retired USMC Scout Sniper Instructor, on this subject

REF: http://www.militaryreligiousfreedom.org/2012/02/guest-voice-kent-gooch-retired-usmc-scout-sniper-instructor-on-the-white-supremacist-neo-nazi-roots-of-ss-sig-runes-in-the-u-s-marine-corps/
DATE: 14FEB12
TITLE: On the white supremacist, neo-Nazi roots of SS sig runes in the U.S. Marine Corps



Greetings, This is in reference to the recent article on Fox news re: USMC Scout-Snipers and the SS flag.
My name is Kent Gooch. I was a USMC scout-sniper and Scout-sniper instructor from 1979-1989 as well as a US Army National Guard sniper instructor from 1995-1998. I have also written articles on the subject for multiple US magazines, co-wrote a book “The Military and Police Sniper” and conducted Police and Military competitions and training here in the US and Austria.

I am writing to tell you that the Shutzstaffel “SS” symbol has a deeper meaning than the USMC is aware of. The USMC spokesmen at Camp Pendleton have no idea of what they are talking about and the Marines that are using it aren’t probably even aware of the history of the “SS” usage, particularly with the 1st Marine Division Scout –Snipers, which is where it started.

This whole thing started with the Neo-Nazis led by Tom and John Metzger of Fallbrook, California in the 80’s. There were a few Marines at 1st Reconnaissance Battalion who were active with the neo-nazi’s. One of them was pretty well known as a recruiter. I heard of this Marine from a friend of mine who was a fellow scout-sniper instructor with me at the USMC Scout-sniper instructor school (SSIS) in Quantico, Virginia from 1982-1986. My friend was stationed at 1st Recon before coming to the SSIS and mentioned this Marine in passing when talking about weird characters we had met over the years. Believe me, this “nazi” Marine wasn’t well looked upon. (I actually ran into the neo-nazi Marine while stationed at Marine Corps Security Forces, Pacific in 1992 or so. He had been assigned as a student at MCSF and I was the Officer in Charge of weapons training. I noticed a Nazi “Blood and Honor” tattoo on his arm and asked him if he was ever in 1st Recon Bn. He replied he had been. I then asked him if he was still a Nazi and he kind of turned pale and replied “No Sir, I gave it up for Lent”. I turned him in to the unit commander and he had his security clearance revoked and was assigned to other duties.)

Back to SSIS. About 1984 a SSgt was assigned to SSIS who had been the head instructor at Camp Pendletons scout-sniper school. He brought out patches and drawings that were being popularized at the 1st Mar Div school and units. They included skull and crossbone designs and the “SS” symbols. The skull and crossbone design was exactly the same as the one used by the White Aryan Resistance (WAR) crew out of Fallbrook. These designs caught on with the mentally challenged and less mature element of the scout-sniper community. Some of the guys event went so far are to getting a version of the “SS” tattooed on their calves, so as not to attract attention, unless of course they were at physical training wearing shorts… it was all very stupid. And apparently the mentality of some of the scout-sniper community hasn’t improved much since then.

The “SS” even made it to the Army National Guard sniper program. In 1995 some of the Army National Guard snipers developed a challenge coin that had the “SS” on one side. A soldier was “caught” with one, at a bar of all places and an official US Army investigation ensued and a directive went out that the “SS” symbol was not allowed. I still have one of the coins.

Having said all of this I am positive that there is no dark “Marathon Man-ish” conspiracy within the USMC scout-sniper program. I imagine if the community were interviewed they would almost all show a deep respect for Israel and the IDF. But there also may be a “respect” of sorts for the dedication of the “SS” soldier but most of them probably don’t understand the whole history of the Waffen and the holocaust as most of American society get their history lessons from MTV these days.

What you DO have is a bunch of boys that can shave, showing their stupidity and ignorance by carrying on this unauthorized and shameful tradition and the Marine Corps spokesmen don’t have a clue to the history of this “SS” stuff and its connections to the Neo-Nazis in Fallbrook.

I would suggest a look at the book series “DEATH FROM AFAR” by Rocky Chandler. You’ll find a ton of evidence in those books.
I hope this helps.

“May the L—d bless you and keep you..”
Kent Gooch
CWO2, US Army (retired)

[KestrelBike]

Thanks James Bond for posting that.

[Limited GM]

Very good post above. Informative stuff as well.

[275RLTW]

"Quiet professional" is becoming less and less prevalent these days...

[flogger]

Good subject for debate. I can see the professional historical passion to carry on with some insignia types but there are times to step away from the controversial 'relations' with some organizations, rather they were intended or not. AND, I think if I were a professional, I wouldn't brag about it with questionable stickers and patches, if any.

[Aloha_Shooter]

If the article James Bond quoted is correct, the "history" behind use of these insignia in the USMC and USA is actually fairly recent. All the more reason to stamp their use out now before it gets even more ingrained. One thing that always concerned me about the recent profusion of challenge coins was that they were a symptom of adopting a braggart culture. It's one thing to verify someone has "been there, done that" when they speak ... it's a whole other thing to display a big board or case that virtually screams, "look at what I've done" or "look who I belong to."

[Mick-Boy]

I think the "blood boiling" reaction is a little extreme and you're reading a lot more into the HOG title than is there.

I have no dog in this fight since I was never an 8541/0312 but I'll add a couple of thoughts.

First, RonMexico is spot on about the use of the SS runes in the sniper community and the HOG and PIG terminology.

Regarding the racist overtones of the runes - I had an instructor at MCWIS with the runes branded on his left ribcage. He was a SSGT that had served as an instructor at the Sniper School prior to working as an instructor trainer for the MCWIS program. He was also black.

One of the guys I work with now was a Sniper in my unit (2/2) in Iraq in '04 and has the runes and a scope reticle tattooed on his back. His Dad is black.

Make of that what you will but I don't think these guys are just covering their involvement in the white supremacist movement.

If you find a symbol "offensive" don't get it tattooed, branded, etc. on your body. Don't wear a shirt with the logo or put a sticker with it on your vehicle. But don't get all huffy about other people doing those things. It might not mean the same thing to them as it does to you.

Scout Sniper school is considered on of the three hardest schools in the Marine Corps. Guys who go through it are generally proud of their accomplishment, even two decades later.

[Mick-Boy]

"Quiet professional" is becoming less and less prevalent these days...


Dude, the guy was in over 20 years ago. You honestly mean to tell me you don't have any Ranger shirts/hats/stickers? C'mon... [Coffee]

[275RLTW]

Dude, the guy was in over 20 years ago. You honestly mean to tell me you don't have any Ranger shirts/hats/stickers? C'mon... [Coffee]

Touche. I stopped telling "hogging" stories though... (different hog meaning for those who don't know)

[Mick-Boy]

[ROFL1] Some guys have no shame...

[Danimal]

If it bothers you approaching the situation is not disrespectful if you do it right. I think the best thing to do in this kind of situation is to develop a well researched set of facts surrounding the actual meaning and purpose of the original symbol using as many historical and reliable references as you can. Then write out a respectful PM to the guy with that information, but also give him an avenue to tell you what it means to him should he decide to. Things like this develop and change over time and are adapted for different meanings. I was very surprised to see swastikas carved into ancient statues of Buddha while I was in China, and was even used for post WWII (1976) construction of the Tian Tan Buddha. To them is still means luck or good fortune and is widely used by billions of people there.

The symbols were re-appropriated by the Nazi's and everyone in European and western culture will forever tie those symbols to them. If they are being used now by some marines, I assume the middle eastern people will tie it to us in their culture going forward. If that previous post written by Gooch is accurate, then I believe that this needs to be passed around and people need to be informed because I doubt that anyone really wants neo-natzi origins describing their organization. I know that it probably has been passed down from class to class utilizing the true ancient meaning and vague history by people that really just cared more about being a sniper than a history buff. But this kind of misrepresentation (if that is what it is) could be pointed out in a respectful and informative manner, and in a way that is not accusatory of their intentions and taken use of the symbol.