View Full Version : Oversight board faults LAPD's Dorner deployment
Oversight board faults LAPD's Dorner deployment (http://news.msn.com/crime-justice/oversight-board-faults-lapds-dorner-deployment)This incident has been referenced numerous times, but I couldn't find a dedicated thread.
The mistaken shooting occurred Feb. 7, 2013. When one of the newspaper delivery women threw a paper onto the pavement in the early morning hours, an officer believing the sound was a gunshot, opened fire. Officers unable to see clearly into the vehicle riddled the pickup truck with 103 rounds, and hit seven nearby homes and nine other vehicles with gunshots and shotgun pellets.
Margie Carranza, then 47, suffered minor injuries, and her then 71-year-old mother, Emma Hernandez was shot in the back.
wctriumph
02-05-2014, 18:20
That is just crazy, so glad I don't live there any more.
TEA
III
clublights
02-05-2014, 18:23
The commission also cites the officers' inadequate firepower.
Jesus... I'm not anti cop but all that comes to mind here is :
" what so they could have killed instead of wounded those two ladies and maybe got a few more innocents on the side?" ......
hit 7 houses and 9 other cars... Jesus.
Leapfrogger2
02-05-2014, 18:33
It sounds like the pickup truck they shot at NOTHING in common with Dorner's except that it was a pickup truck. Never realized that.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)
So anyone have a link to the actual report? I'd like to dig into the details on that "inadequate firepower" portion. If they really are concerned because the occupants were not killed, wow.
Circuits
02-05-2014, 18:43
so - slaps on the wrist and raises and promotions all around?
So... A newspaper sounds like a gunshot?
Sent by a free-range electronic weasel, with no sense of personal space.
clublights
02-05-2014, 18:46
So anyone have a link to the actual report? I'd like to dig into the details on that "inadequate firepower" portion. If they really are concerned because the occupants were not killed, wow.
I don't think it was like THAT ( tho that is how it comes across which is why I made my post above...)
I do agree the guys on the protective detail should have had patrol rifles seeing as Dorner was KNOWN to be using an AR. You don't take pistols and shotguns to a rifle fight.
in retrospect it is a good thing they did not have them.. 103 rounds into a innocents truck( and everything within a block it seems) because a NEWSPAPER hitting the ground sounded like a gun shot.
103 rounds.
clublights
02-05-2014, 18:48
So... A newspaper sounds like a gunshot?
Sent by a free-range electronic weasel, with no sense of personal space.
Can you imagine if you or I or any non police officer tried to use that as the excuse ?
The only answer would be "Regular or Extra Crispy?"
because a NEWSPAPER hitting the ground sounded like a gun shot.
and the first 2 digits of the license plate matched. That first digit increments like every 5 years...
not the actual report, just a summary
http://www.lapdonline.org/newsroom/news_view/55482
ETA: The summary says the officers were in the right to draw their weapons and aim at an unknown vehicle but not in the right to fire.
clublights
02-05-2014, 19:00
and the first 2 digits of the license plate matched. That first digit increments like every 5 years...
not the actual report, just a summary
http://www.lapdonline.org/newsroom/news_view/55482
oh sure so the officers on scene could notice that the the first two digits of the plate were the same but not the fact the truck was BRIGHT FUCKING BLUE and not Grey ?
**coughcoughbullshitcoughcough**
Again I swear I'm not anti cop but man this incident really pisses me off.
103 rounds.
That number leads me to think they reloaded at some point. Why did they keep shooting?, -I can't imagine the two newspaper delivery women were sending anything harmful their way during those 103 rounds...
clublights
02-05-2014, 19:17
So anyone have a link to the actual report? I'd like to dig into the details on that "inadequate firepower" portion. If they really are concerned because the occupants were not killed, wow.
I think I found the report.. have not read it all yet but here ya go
http://www.lapdonline.org/assets/pdf/012-13_Outside%20City-OIS.pdf
Great-Kazoo
02-05-2014, 19:21
oh sure so the officers on scene could notice that the the first two digits of the plate were the same but not the fact the truck was BRIGHT FUCKING BLUE and not Grey ?
**coughcoughbullshitcoughcough**
Again I swear I'm not anti cop but man this incident really pisses me off.
Perhaps you are unaware that people switch license plates.
If there's a BOLO for a red truck, lic plate ABC-123 and i see a blue truck with partial plate legible ABC, i'd like to know who the occupants are. Would i open fire on unidentified occupants, no.
Circuits
02-05-2014, 19:25
8 officers shooting… guess we're lucky they didn't blow all 128 rounds loaded in one long frenzy. (presuming 15rd issue beretta 92 magazines, and one in the pipe).
8 officers shooting… guess we're lucky they didn't blow all 128 rounds loaded in one long frenzy. (presuming 15rd issue beretta 92 magazines, and one in the pipe).
at least one had a shotgun
clublights
02-05-2014, 19:42
Perhaps you are unaware that people switch license plates.
If there's a BOLO for a red truck, lic plate ABC-123 and i see a blue truck with partial plate legible ABC, i'd like to know who the occupants are. Would i open fire on unidentified occupants, no.
yes i am aware they switch plates.... as Dorner had switched to the "8D plate" from his " legal" plate.
But why would someone trained as a police officer switch his likely to be known plate to a fresh truck? wouldn't it make a ton more tactical sense to show up in a clean car AND clean plates?
Reading the report they knew it was blue and not grey and fired anyways. It seems we have a classic case of "scenario fulfillment" here. they WANTED it to be Dorner so no matter the conflicting facts they saw it as Dorner anyways.
I think I found the report.. have not read it all yet but here ya go
http://www.lapdonline.org/assets/pdf/012-13_Outside%20City-OIS.pdf
Thanks, I see a few mentions of firepower in there.
A general statement in the Tactics section
Additionally, the investigation revealed that none of the officers assigned to the detail were equipped with police rifles at a location that was deemed a high priority. The officers were aware that the suspect had extensive military training and already attacked and killed officers with an assault rifle earlier that morning. As a result, the officers were equipped with inferior firepower and were at a significant tactical disadvantage. The presence of officers equipped with police rifles was warranted.
Hard to argue with that, the man they were after was using a rifle.
One of the officers did take a rifle out of the trunk but apparently did not fire it.
Then there is this
4. Equipment/Deployment of Rifles – In this incident, deployment of patrol rifles and possibly slug shotgun(s) would have provided additional firepower and increased tactical advantage during a lethal attack.
No, in this incident everyone having rifles would have resulted in 2 dead.
Perhaps you are unaware that people switch license plates.
If there's a BOLO for a red truck, lic plate ABC-123 and i see a blue truck with partial plate legible ABC, i'd like to know who the occupants are. Would i open fire on unidentified occupants, no.
In CA the first number rarely changes so they verified a partial match with 1 matching digit.
oh sure so the officers on scene could notice that the the first two digits of the plate were the same but not the fact the truck was BRIGHT FUCKING BLUE and not Grey ?
...and was a Toyota, not a Nissan.
Nice to see that the shoot first, identify second, process has accountability, eh?
He wrote, "While there were similarities, the truck that approached was a different make and model, different color, had no ski racks and no over-sized tires.".
clublights
02-05-2014, 20:17
Perhaps you are unaware that people switch license plates.
If there's a BOLO for a red truck, lic plate ABC-123 and i see a blue truck with partial plate legible ABC, i'd like to know who the occupants are. Would i open fire on unidentified occupants, no.
Please take this with a grain of salt.....
But if having the same KINDA vehicle ( i.e. pick up , SUV, sports car) and 2 matching digits on a plate ( even tho NOTHING ELSE is the same) is enough for you to pull me over to find out "Who I am" then I need to sell my Jeep ....
Cuz CO has a ton of SUV's and I'm sure quite a few have SW in the first two digits.
tho on the other hand too bad I'm not black .. I'd make a ton suing the department cuz no jury would believe that was the reason you pulled me over.
The report from the Board of Police Commissioners was an interesting read. It's amazing how the imagination of Officer A could have escalated in such a fashion.
Officer G firing 11 shots with his Beretta from 270 feet away? He must be like Riggs in Lethal Weapon. [facepalm]
Colorado_Outback
02-05-2014, 20:58
so - slaps on the wrist and raises and promotions all around?
Probably being scouted by the NYPD with skills like that.
lowbeyond
02-05-2014, 21:46
Poor guys. Just another example of libtards taking away another feather in the cap from people who protect you while you sleep.
Prayers for a good raise so their families don't suffer needlessly.
Bailey Guns
02-06-2014, 10:14
^^Wow! 25 posts until your fucking anti-cop sarcasm shows up. Pretty amazing.
I'm not defending this goat fuck of a shooting at all. But your incessant, sarcastic bitching and whining is really irritating.
Maybe, at some point, you or someone you care about will really need police help and they won't show up. Would that make you happy?
Some here would probably hold their own mothers arms back so she could be beaten without being able to block the blows LOL. Some are haters....the rest of use fall somewhere in the middle.
centrarchidae
02-06-2014, 12:42
LAPD puts most of their shooting reviews online at the BOPC web site.
Interesting reading, but I'd hate to work with Officer A. That guy is a shit magnet.
Teufelhund
02-06-2014, 13:42
Additionally, the investigation revealed that none of the officers assigned to the detail were equipped with police rifles at a location that was deemed a high priority. The officers were aware that the suspect had extensive military training and already attacked and killed officers with an assault rifle earlier that morning. As a result, the officers were equipped with inferior firepower and were at a significant tactical disadvantage. The presence of officers equipped with police rifles was warranted.
This is my favorite part of the report. If you're a perp, your rifle is an evil "assault rifle." If you are a cop, your rifle is a totally justified "police rifle." I admittedly don't know the facts, but I would bet they're talking about the same exact model of firearm.
Teuf, I'd be sure of itl. Tis even possible that those "police rifles" are select fire while the "assault rifle" was not. Don't care enough to find out for sure as it is propaganda either way.
lowbeyond
02-06-2014, 21:52
^^Wow! 25 posts until your fucking anti-cop sarcasm shows up. Pretty amazing.
I'm not defending this goat fuck of a shooting at all. But your incessant, sarcastic bitching and whining is really irritating.
Maybe, at some point, you or someone you care about will really need police help and they won't show up. Would that make you happy?
So these guys light up a truck that isnt even close to the one that donner was in . The sound of a newspaper hitting the ground caused one bloke to get scared so they lit up 2 Asian ladies.
and im anti cop - sure. That's the standard line of people who think there is always an excuse for xyz. Sure. uh-huh
You know whats irritating to me?
Unaccountable d-bags who think they can shoot first kill maim ruin peoples lives over incompetence - then they get some extra unplanned paid vaca. There is a difference.
A big one.
I guess you can't see the difference. I'd say that's irritating, but its more pathetic.
*shrug*
ETA: I only pray that this little hiccup in their career wont make them hesitate the next time people that look nothing like the suspect need to be shot up. That would be a terrible consequence. Just think about if the next 2 Asian ladies got inside his OODA loop and actually delivered the next newspaper.
Holy Shit!
Bailey Guns
02-06-2014, 22:44
What's pathetic is some peckerwood who tries to convince me he's not anti-cop when everything he posts regarding the police is a bunch of sarcastic bullshit because, on occasion, a cop screws the pooch. Cry me a fuckin' river. Well guess what, genius? Every day 800,000 state and local cops don't fuck up. So why is it I never hear a fuckin' word about that from you, Mr I'm Not Anti-Cop?
Oh...I know why. Because you have to generalize all cops based on the actions of a fraction of the total and lump the good with the bad. Yeah...there is a difference.
Whatever you do for a living, or however you live your life, I suppose you do it fuckin' perfectly every day without making a mistake.
Unaccountable d-bags who think they can shoot first kill maim ruin peoples lives over incompetence - then they get some extra unplanned paid vaca. There is a difference.
Oh, yeah. They were probably discussing how they were gonna go shoot up a couple of old ladies during roll call that day just to get some time off. You're an idiot.
<MADDOG>
02-06-2014, 23:25
Both of you gentlemen need to have a drink and relax...
This was a bad shoot: yes.
Bad decisions: yes.
Is it prone to happen in big jurisdictions: yes. (insert reason why here)
Does that make all of our LE's bad guys: no.
At the end of the AAR; what is the end question...
How does the LE community stop this from happening again?
clublights
02-06-2014, 23:43
At the end of the AAR; what is the end question...
How does the LE community stop this from happening again?
I'm not sure... "scenario fulfillment" is a hard one to combat .. esp when people are in an non supervised roll. ( what I mean is that the officers have the ROE to engage without asking someone else first. not that there are no police supervisors.. nor am I suggesting it should be any other way) Those guys saw that truck as Dorners and there was no changing that. and once the first guy shot.. everyone else kinda joined in and they all fed each other. ( reading the report I.. other then the first shot... think all the shots the others guys heard were other cops shooting. )
Didn't help they were scared ( rightfully so .. a former cop is out hunting cops .. I'd have been on edge too )
The sad part is I see all this .. and I get what happened.. I even see why it happened... still pisses me the fuck off that 7-8 cops could not stop to think long enough that the truck was not even the right color.
Bailey Guns
02-07-2014, 01:13
Both of you gentlemen need to have a drink and relax...
Well sometimes there just isn't enough booze to make it possible to deal with some people. So that isn't the answer.
Yes...they screwed up. All the way around. No question about it. But it isn't as simple as the truck was the wrong color or how they mistook the sound of a newspaper hitting the concrete as a gunshot. To say they are unaccountable for doing something like that goes beyond ignorance and to imply it was intentional, or that they're just itching to do it again, is just stupid. And it sure as hell doesn't disguise the agenda of the individual making the statements.
Few people go through the initial training, not to mention the ongoing training regimens, as professional pilots. But sometimes they make mistakes and people get hurt or killed. People who install furnaces make mistakes on occasion and get people hurt or killed. Truck drivers, doctors...you name it...make mistakes and people get hurt or killed. But for some reason, when a cop...a person who is intentionally placed into very dangerous situations where life and death decisions must be made instantaneously and not always under the best of environmental conditions, makes a mistake and hurts or kills someone, some people just can't understand why that's possible. At every opportunity it becomes a chance for them to disparage everyone who wears the badge.
Bailey, the whole problem here is trust. A LEO can literally get away with murder in this country with out a jury by piers and in the end gets a paid vaca and training out of it. If a civilian did the same thing that we hear about in these LEO screw up's they would go to jail. The problem is LEO's are civilians, civilians can perform the same actions as a LEO yet it is frowned at. If we civilians screw up there is no vaca, no pay and there is a criminal suit. There is no doubt LEO's are above the law in our minds because of this, and in the end we loose trust in the system. By no means are any and all LEO's bad seed's, the problem is that bad seeds get away with it all too often. If some one tried/did murder me i want them in jail LEO or not. Yet many of us all expect these LEO's are going to be back on the streets in no time. LEO's are paid to pay more attention then the rest of us because that is their job, the added risk means nothing to me because it is a side effect of the job. Many jobs are more risky then being an LEO but they do not get special privileges. Should LEO's get paided more then they do? YES, but they should be treated no different then the rest of us when something happens because they are us. The problem is we know LEO's are above the law and in a different class because the same rules do not always apply yet we are both civilians that should be held to the same standards. I am friends with Many LEO's and because of them know quite a few more. I do not hate any of them but if any of them got this super duper special treatment i would not be happy.
Many jobs are more risky then being an LEO but they do not get special privileges.
In the example given of airline pilots, they have skin in the game. Sitting in the nose of the guided missile, if they crash the plane, they likely don't go home at the end of the day.
With a 100 rounds fired at 2 unarmed women, the only thing likely to prevent the officers going home at the end of the day is if they shot each other. If there was more accountability, this might be less likely to happen. Without the accountability, this will happen again.
Bailey Guns
02-07-2014, 08:36
Well the same thing can be said about Joe Citizen...especially in this day and age. I really don't trust the average person to do the right thing, either. Have you ever been sued for $16M for something you didn't do? I have. Yeah...little Joe Citizen decided he didn't wanna go to jail for DUI. So he hits his head against the cage in my car, puts a small cut in his forehead, and makes up a story (actually it was 4 stories) about what happened.
It was total bullshit and everyone knew it was total bullshit. But I still had to endure an IA investigation, a civil rights investigation by the FBI and a 7 day trial in Federal District Court. Nothing I could do about it except listen to what a "bad cop" I was for 3 1/2 years. Fortunately, the jury saw right through the bullshit and I was found not liable. The piece of shit Joe Citizen that sued me? A 19 year old who'd never worked, probably never would work, mom and dad were both convicted felons so they didn't have anything and never would. Tell me about accountability. They laughed the whole thing off including the $480,000 judgment against them for my costs and atty's fees because they knew it meant dick.
That same shit happens day in and day out...far more often than cops doing stupid shit and completely getting away with it. You guys make it sound like cops can go out on the street and do what the fuck ever they want without any consequences. Well it happens on occasion, but far more often there are consequences...serious consequences. I basically lost 3 1/2 years of my life to that little asshole and he sure as hell didn't have any accountability or suffer any consequences.
So spare me the sob stories about poor little innocent Joe Citizen. I've already conceded this incident was a total cluster all the way around and it was wrong. But it's the exception rather than the rule. If some people have a hardon for cops and can't see that I don't have a problem pointing it out.
I just think they should be held to the same standards as civilians
Guy I work withs daughter was at the bar with her boyfriend in pueblo they were outside smoking a cigarette when three guys in a truck slowly drive by while shooting at them(with actual lead bullets and not newspaper ones)
The boyfriend returns fire killing one he is currently awaiting trial for murder because he used "too many bullets" while shooting back
Bailey Guns
02-07-2014, 09:06
And there are plenty of instances where civilians accidentally shoot and kill/injure innocent persons and are never charged.
It's never as simple as "too many bullets".
And there are plenty of instances where civilians accidentally shoot and kill/injure innocent persons and are never charged.
It's never as simple as "too many bullets".
I agree
I haven't had the chance to read the full report yet, so please pardon my ignorance: What disciplinary action, if any, did the officers involved face? Were they criminally charged, administratively disciplined, or sued in civil court? If so, what were the outcomes?
Aloha_Shooter
02-07-2014, 11:23
By no means are any and all LEO's bad seed's, the problem is that bad seeds get away with it all too often.
Just how do you evaluate the frequency of occurrence in order to say "too often"? How often you think LEO shoots occur? What percentage of those do you think are bad shoots? Why do you think that many of them are bad shoots?
Kraven251
02-07-2014, 12:45
I can see the similarity...
Scum bag smacks head into cage sues department, a cop gets shit on. vs. 8 officers light up a truck because of a newspaper. What I see here is 1 LEO needs to find another job and the other 7 need to learn that when they are out with officer squirrelly they should confirm their target before letting lead fly.
wait, nope don't see the similarity, though I now understand your bias. ...and yes honest cops get a bad run of things because of scumbags being scumbags, but these dipshits are why police in general make me nervous, because it just takes officer squirrelly to get you killed.
james_bond_007
02-07-2014, 14:15
Jesus... I'm not anti cop but all that comes to mind here is :
" what so they could have killed instead of wounded those two ladies and maybe got a few more innocents on the side?" ......
hit 7 houses and 9 other cars... Jesus.
However, they missed the barn....you know, the one with the broad side?
james_bond_007
02-07-2014, 14:17
What is that Basic Firearm rule again?
Oh ya...
Be sure of your target and what is beyond it.
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