View Full Version : The Ant and the Grasshopper
OLD VERSION
The ant works hard in the withering heat all summer long, building his house and laying up supplies for the winter.
The grasshopper thinks the ant is a fool and laughs and dances and plays the summer away.
Come winter, the ant is warm and well fed.
The grasshopper has no food or shelter, so he dies out in the cold.
MORAL OF THE OLD STORY: Be responsible for yourself!
MODERN VERSION
The ant works hard in the withering heat and the rain all summer long, building his house and laying up supplies for the winter.
The grasshopper thinks the ant is a fool and laughs and dances and plays the summer away.
Come winter, the shivering grasshopper calls a press conference and demands to know why the ant should be allowed to be warm and well fed while he is cold and starving..
CBS, NBC, PBS, CNN, and ABC show up to provide pictures of the shivering grasshopper next to a video of the ant in his comfortable home with a table filled with food.
America is stunned by the sharp contrast. How can this be, that in a country of such wealth, this poor grasshopper is allowed to suffer so?
Kermit the Frog appears on Oprah with the grasshopper and everybody cries when they sing, 'It's Not Easy Being Green ...'
Occupy the Anthill stages a demonstration in front of the ant's house where the news stations film the SEIU group singing, We shall overcome.
Then Rev Al Sharpton's assistant has the group kneel down to pray for the grasshopper while he damns the ants. The Reverend Al can not attend as he has contractual commitments to appear on his MSNBC show for which he is paid over two million dollars a year to complain that rich people do not care.
President Obama condemns the ant and blames President Bush 43, President Bush 41, President Reagan, Christopher Columbus, and the Pope for the grasshopper's plight….
Nancy Pelosi & Harry Reid exclaim in an interview on The View that the ant has gotten rich off the back of the grasshopper, and both call for an immediate tax hike on the ant to make him pay his fair share.
Finally, the EEOC drafts the Economic Equity & Anti-Grasshopper Act retroactive to the beginning of the summer.
The ant is fined for failing to hire a proportionate number of green bugs and,
having nothing left to pay his retroactive taxes, his home is confiscated by the Government Green Czar and given to the grasshopper
The story ends as we see the grasshopper and his free-loading friends finishing up the last bits of the ant's food while the government house he is in, which, as you recall, just happens to be the ant's old house, crumbles around them because the grasshopper doesn't maintain it.
The ant has disappeared in the snow, never to be seen again. The grasshopper is found dead in a drug related incident, and the house, now abandoned, is taken
over by a gang of spiders who terrorize the ramshackle, once prosperous and peaceful, neighborhood. The entire Nation collapses bringing the rest
of the free world with it.
Yes but the bottom line is for 2014...
hollohas
02-15-2014, 10:24
The REALLY old version
Proverbs 6:6-11
Go to the ant, you lazybones;
consider its ways, and be wise.
Without having any chief
or officer or ruler,
it prepares its food in summer,
and gathers its sustenance in harvest.
How long will you lie there, O lazybones?
When will you rise from your sleep?
A little sleep, a little slumber,
a little folding of the hands to rest,
and poverty will come upon you like a robber,
and want, like an armed warrior.
kidicarus13
02-15-2014, 11:20
Its too bad more ants don't see the writing on the wall.
sabot_round
02-15-2014, 11:40
Its too bad more ants don't see the writing on the wall.
There are more grasshoppers than ants.
OtterbatHellcat
02-15-2014, 14:14
I hate grasshoppers.
blacklabel
02-15-2014, 14:39
There's going to come a day when the .gov won't be able to do jack for the grasshopper. Ants, stock up like your life depends on it, because it does.
Grasshoppers make good bait.
wctriumph
02-15-2014, 15:33
I had a deep fried grass hopper once. That was enough for me.
There are more grasshoppers than ants.
Because their population has been nurtured by gov.
But if these grasshoppers are so incompetent as not to be able (if we are to believe their need) to feed themselves, how can they be a threat? They are only a threat to the ants because the ants allow it foolishly thinking that they will be able to keep enough for themselves.
The grasshopper problem would resolve itself if the ants would cut them off. They would either have to behave more like ants or face starvation.
Yes, the morality here would be debated. But is it more just that everyone starve?
Ineptocracy:
A system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.
I hear this kind of BS and it shows me what happens in an echo chamber. I think to a good friend who works on printing presses, is a ski instructor in the winter and a mortorcycle instructor in the summer. He pinches penny's, painted his own house to save money and still rides a grey 1988 Goldwing that he keeps in top shape. He is highly skilled and the fact is you have probably benefited from his work in promoting your business or in in the money you use (he has worked on the printing presses that print our money). He has stayed educated, credentialed and covers 4 states. He always seems to be on the road to support his wife and kid (who is challenged). He is a standup guy and for all he works he makes about 40K. He will NEVER retire, it was impossible for him to save enough and the fact is, even though he worked hard his whole life, will probably be the definition of your 'Grasshopper' at some point. My wife works her ass off and makes about the same. I know a lot of people like this. They work their ass off, hold down multiple jobs and yet still make the B-Ball game for their kid(s). I also know that last Friday another friend made over 10k in a single day on stocks because he is in a profession that makes more money in general. He could have slept all day and still made the money. He is in security and helps protect all of your credit cards, 401ks and personnel information. His job is important and he could easily be considered the ant but is no more important or working any harder than my other friend. He is nothing compared to those bringing in millions who work less and yet reap far greater rewards. There is no reason that he should make in one day what another, working equally as hard makes in a quarter. Now before the whole socialism cry starts I am not saying that there should not be any wealthy people or that there are not free loaders our there. What I am saying is that the playing field is not even. The opportunities are not even and that is not what the American dream is founded on. If we go back to that B-Ball game as an annolgy nobody would agree with a 30 point lead by one team(or one family starting out with more money), refs from that team (a tax structure that has the rich paying less than middle or lowwer income) and a basket at 8' instead of 10' for that team (when you run in that crowd it is easier to stay in that crowd). There are a lot of 'Grasshoppers' out there that play by the rules and still struggle when getting government support. I have buddies from my time in the Navy that are still in and that get food stamps. They are anything but 'grasshoppers'. For the majority of the 20th century there was a 91% tax rate. For a long time Frank Sinatra, Bing Crosby and Fred Astare and those types were paid within a few dollars of each other because if you went over a set amount it just got taken by the gov. This is also considered by most economy's to be the healthiest economic time America ever saw, with the strongest middle class we have ever had. Now you might again scream socialism but wait. I said they did NOT get paid more so the government did NOT collect that money. It stayed in the commercial world. The rich still had their mansions, speed boats, cars and vacations. So what happened to that money. Unlike today where somebody like Bill Gates has amassed billions of dollars and is in effect spending the rest of his life giving it away.... (Which is charity) the money had to be put back into either the business or more likely the employees. Wages were higher for the average Joe as a percentage adjusted for inflation. Business's did not want to pay taxes then anymore than now. There were still 'rich' but it was not a Monopoly game where people like my buddy only made 40k so that his boss could keep up the summer house. There is a limit to where wealth is legitimate, where it becomes more about getting on Forbes top 10 list instead of living by the idea of an honest pay for an honest days work. When an EOD tech, diffusing a bomb is paid closer to the same as a CEO then we are getting closer to what is 'right' for the work done. Capitalism has its good points but the railroads would not have spread across America were it not for Government intervention. To make it more modern, the Internet has not been evenly spread outside of the populous areas (btw primarily Democrat) except where the Government has provided incentives. In the latest crash the 'Grasshoppers' were not freeloading NPR.. PBS welfare recipients they were the wealthy getting corporate welfare and none of them going to jail but instead riding on the back of what is left of the middle class. Raise the minimum wage.... Um ya. If you are WORKING you should be paid a working wage for a normal 40hr week. That means you should be able to aford a place to live, food, maybe save some for the kid to go to college, etc. Tax those with more so money is put back into the economy... Um ya. No CEO is making 'the big bucks' without a good work force carrying the heavy load. Should they make more probably. In the 70's the top management made 70 times what the janitor did. That is closer to 1000 times the janitor now. CEO's aren't doing any more work now as opposed to then.
I am for the average person playing on an even playing field and working their way up to where they can continue that even playing field with their kids. I am not for an arostocracy that was removed from this country in the late 1700's. I am for allowing those that can excel to excel while they contribute to what created them in the first place not for the establishment of a modern fiefdoms. I am not for going back to a time of selling my sole to the company store, which is were my buddy on the presses currently is to be thrown away when he can no longer work..... along with the rest of those grasshoppers!
UncleDave
02-15-2014, 19:04
Hound you are missing the point completely. A grasshopper is a lazy person who refuses to work, not someone who works hard but never has great financial success. Apples and oranges. Equal opportunity does not mean equal results. You used the example of Gates. How many jobs are now based off what he brought to market, whole industries. That is why he made as much as he has. Your friend who repairs printing equipment, how many jobs has he created? I am sure he is a great man, but in a free market economy your financial rewards should be equal to the amount you contribute to economy as a whole. Opportunities still exist, if you have the brains and the guts. There is no great reward without great risk. I do not agree with corporate welfare any more than I do with welfare for those that refuse to work. If you can't compete you die, that is business. The constant class battle that people want to promote only serves to divide.
hollohas
02-15-2014, 20:20
Hound, I'll repeat what UncleDave said. A man who works hard to provide for his family and holds down a job(s) is not a grasshopper no matter how much or little he makes.
This has nothing to do with dollar bills and everything to do with work ethic and ones desire to work to provide for THEMSELF as well as ones refusal to take (or even demand) a government handout.
Where you really lost me is where you state that you are all for people to be allowed to excel while they "contribute to what created them in the first place." That's the "you didn't build that mentality" and is simply wrong. Believe it or not, people can be successful WITHOUT being "created" by someone or something else. I'd love to hear who or what you think "creates" successful people. The government? Society in general? And that statement is a thinly disguised admittance that you expect successful people to redistribute the fruits of their successes.
OK Hound's rant I give it a -3
1.For non comprehension of OP.
2. For a ridiculous post that NO one wants to decifer.
3. And he is checked off of the Piggy roast roster.
No what I am saying is that not all gov assistance is bad and not all captialism is good. As far as Gates how many industries were crushed by that monopoly. How many jobs lost to consolidate under the M$ umbrella. I lived watching them either buy you out or crush you with lawyers while they STOLE your idea. How many layoffs do we see as these mega mergers continue to kill competition. The constant worshipping at the alter of unregulated capitalism get us monopoly's that actually are the antithesis of true capitalism. Meanwhile we keep taking away assitance from those working 3 and 4 jobs to support their family castigating them as welfare sycophants. Some of the reply's here are just parroting the ultra right and are as bad as the ultra left. People serving our country are not Grasshoppers nor are people like my buddy in the press for taking government assistance. People like Bill Gates start off as the eptiomy of the American dream and then warp it into a self privledged horror story that affect and destroy the middle class by building monopoly's. Greed is not good and was the cause of the Great Depression and the Great Recession. I am not comparing Apples and Oranges I am pointing to the real Grasshoppers. Those that think because the have money they deserve more votes than the average man, those that don't pay what a person is worth, those that think the shareholders are more important than the workers that REALLY built the company that makes them so much money, those that think merging companies or laying off people just to get a quarterly spike is some how American. There is a class battle and unfortunatly many have been suckered into thinking they are on top of the pile when in fact they are on the bottom. BTW... Both the left and the right have their own way of continuing this race to the bottom. It is not all one sides fault.
I used to watch Kung Fu,,, grasshopper's.
Hound, I'll repeat what UncleDave said. A man who works hard to provide for his family and holds down a job(s) is not a grasshopper no matter how much or little he makes.
This has nothing to do with dollar bills and everything to do with work ethic and ones desire to work to provide for THEMSELF as well as ones refusal to take (or even demand) a government handout.
Where you really lost me is where you state that you are all for people to be allowed to excel while they "contribute to what created them in the first place." That's the "you didn't build that mentality" and is simply wrong. Believe it or not, people can be successful WITHOUT being "created" by someone or something else. I'd love to hear who or what you think "creates" successful people. The government? Society in general? And that statement is a thinly disguised admittance that you expect successful people to redistribute the fruits of their successes.
When you make it "big" it was a team effort. There is no one person that makes a company into a multimillion dollar company. Including Gates. You did not build it alone. Yes they should redistribute the fruits to EVERYBODY that was part of that success not hoard it at the top. I see developers getting low balled and told they are not worth the low wages paid while their long hours and work are key to the million dollar contracts. I have personally saved millions of dollars to the company and then had to argue about my own pay. No man is an island and that does not stop being true in business. I don't support returning to the aerostocracy that was the impetous of the Constitution. I do not belive in a time where the Lords own all the land, pass it to heirs and get all the profit while the sweat is paid by the commonor. If you do, go back to England.
hollohas
02-15-2014, 21:00
Dude, Hound, you're just ranting and missing the point. This is about hard work vs laziness. Not corporate greed and capitalism. And nobody said people who are serving the country are grasshoppers. Everyone was saying the exact opposite in fact.
hollohas
02-15-2014, 21:02
And PS..that bad guy Bill Gates...why don't you check out his foundation before you continue to say how greedy he is.
...and the wealth was spread around;
The Microsoft Millionaires Come of Age (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/29/business/yourmoney/29millionaire.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0)
From 1986 to 1996, Microsoft's stock soared more than a hundredfold as the company's Windows operating system and Office applications dominated the PC industry. That explosive climb made millionaires of employees who had accepted options as a substantial part of their compensation for 60-hour workweeks fueled by a diet of Twinkies, Coca-Cola (http://www.nytimes.com/redirect/marketwatch/redirect.ctx?MW=http://custom.marketwatch.com/custom/nyt-com/html-companyprofile.asp&symb=KO) and marshmallow Peeps. The sudden riches led many to refer to themselves as "lottery winners."
"While the exact number is not known, it is reasonable to assume that there were approximately 10,000 Microsoft millionaires created by the year 2000," said Richard S. Conway Jr., a Seattle economist whom Microsoft hired to study its impact on Washington State. "The wealth that has come to this area is staggering."
Hound, you're off the mark with the axe you're grinding.
hollohas
02-15-2014, 21:29
Yes they should redistribute the fruits to EVERYBODY that was part of that success not hoard it at the top..
And how should they do that? Equally to all? Call me crazy, I thought the paycheck received by an employee was their compensation for being part of a company's success...
And again, the main point of "ants vs grasshoppers" is one regarding personal responsibility and work ethic. It is about some people being lazy and demanding/being given the same benefits as those who work hard.
No what I am saying is that not all gov assistance is bad and not all captialism is good. As far as Gates how many industries were crushed by that monopoly. How many jobs lost to consolidate under the M$ umbrella. I lived watching them either buy you out or crush you with lawyers while they STOLE your idea. How many layoffs do we see as these mega mergers continue to kill competition. The constant worshipping at the alter of unregulated capitalism get us monopoly's that actually are the antithesis of true capitalism. Meanwhile we keep taking away assitance from those working 3 and 4 jobs to support their family castigating them as welfare sycophants. Some of the reply's here are just parroting the ultra right and are as bad as the ultra left. People serving our country are not Grasshoppers nor are people like my buddy in the press for taking government assistance. People like Bill Gates start off as the eptiomy of the American dream and then warp it into a self privledged horror story that affect and destroy the middle class by building monopoly's. Greed is not good and was the cause of the Great Depression and the Great Recession. I am not comparing Apples and Oranges I am pointing to the real Grasshoppers. Those that think because the have money they deserve more votes than the average man, those that don't pay what a person is worth, those that think the shareholders are more important than the workers that REALLY built the company that makes them so much money, those that think merging companies or laying off people just to get a quarterly spike is some how American. There is a class battle and unfortunatly many have been suckered into thinking they are on top of the pile when in fact they are on the bottom. BTW... Both the left and the right have their own way of continuing this race to the bottom. It is not all one sides fault.
I love this revisionist history... You do realize that free enterprise (now called "Capitalism") was what made this country great? Without a free market economy there would be no America and no pompous asshole President to tell us what we did/didn't build (ironic, yes?).
Keep in mind every time government intervenes to provide "assistance" they must take from someone else in order to provide that "assistance." (Using quotes because keeping people poor and dependent isn't really assistance) Government cannot create value/wealth they can only consume the value and wealth created in the private economy. And so they must literally put a gun to your neighbor's head to "even the playing field."
What that looks like at the street level is the middle class getting soaked. They are the ones who are marginally successful yet lack the ability to redistribute their tax burden on to others. And, unlike the Grasshoppers, April 15th isn't a payday for us. We must work and yet are denied the full benefit of our labor.
Meanwhile, the people who champion these ideas are getting insanely rich. You hate Gates? There is no end to the line of filthy rich collectivists telling us we need to sacrifice for the greater good. But instead you hate the people who live within their means and want to keep their paycheck? Which is actually their labor! And denying a man his labor makes him.... A SLAVE!
You are actually cheering your own enslavement. And you have every right to do so. But you have ZERO right to do that to me or my children.
And how should they do that? Equally to all? Call me crazy, I thought the paycheck received by an employee was their compensation for being part of a company's success...
And again, the main point of "ants vs grasshoppers" is one regarding personal responsibility and work ethic. It is about some people being lazy and demanding/being given the same benefits as those who work hard.
When paychecks are kept low by lowballing pay that is not sharing in the success of the company and is not adequate compensation. My stories are talking about those with personel responsibility and great work ethic having money taken out of their hands not by the government but by those at the top of the corporate ladder. As for those being lazy vs those working hard... That is were the story started with one guy busting his ass driving all over 4 states to get peanuts while the other guy (that did nothing all day) got paid more in a day than the one busting his ass gets in a full quarter. That is what I call crazy.
I love this revisionist history... You do realize that free enterprise (now called "Capitalism") was what made this country great? Without a free market economy there would be no America and no pompous asshole President to tell us what we did/didn't build (ironic, yes?).
There is no revisionist history here. Free enterprise does not include monopoly's. Just look to the Robber barons and see the eventual end to what you espouse. Government does not have all the answers but niether does unregulated free enterprise/capitalism. There HAS to be a balance. Too much from either side hurts the middle class.
Keep in mind every time government intervenes to provide "assistance" they must take from someone else in order to provide that "assistance." (Using quotes because keeping people poor and dependent isn't really assistance) Government cannot create value/wealth they can only consume the value and wealth created in the private economy. And so they must literally put a gun to your neighbor's head to "even the playing field."
By the same token capitalism can only create wealth it does not distribute it. Yes they create jobs but at the same time only to maximize their own profits. This is not for the common good but for the few at the top. Workers/commoners are paid as little as possible to maintain a workforce. They are then told to be glad they even have a job. The majority of people do not see the benefit of their labor their Lords do. When the balance of wealth is tipped too far to the top 1% is when we see recessions and depressions because the economic pump runs dry due to too much concentration of wealth.
What that looks like at the street level is the middle class getting soaked. They are the ones who are marginally successful yet lack the ability to redistribute their tax burden on to others. And, unlike the Grasshoppers, April 15th isn't a payday for us. We must work and yet are denied the full benefit of our labor.
Here we agree. The poor don't pay taxes because they don't have enough to tax. The rich don't pay taxes because they get the laws to provide them loopholes. Rommney lost because he admitted this to the commoners. He said straight out that he thought he was entiltled to millions simply because he was wealthy and the rigged laws say this is OK. That leaves the shrinking middle class to bare the burden of both sides. So why again is it a bad thing for those with more to pay more. Like I said with the 91% taxes, the government did not actually get the money. It forced the top to redistribute it themselves (through good paying jobs) thus creating a large portion of the middle class out of those that came back from WWII.
Meanwhile, the people who champion these ideas are getting insanely rich. You hate Gates? There is no end to the line of filthy rich collectivists telling us we need to sacrifice for the greater good. But instead you hate the people who live within their means and want to keep their paycheck? Which is actually their labor! And denying a man his labor makes him.... A SLAVE
'They' live not within their means... they live off our means. My buddy on the presses does his best to live within his means and will not retire because he was never paid what his labor was worth. Their is NOTHING ANY of us could do in our lifetime that could be worth a Billion dollars. Esinhower saved our country and was not worth that much. Why? Because it was a team of people's labors that created that won the war and/or created the wealth but only a few who benefit from that wealth. You defend the guy doing nothing and getting 10K in a day while the guy busting his ass will NEVER retire and wonder who is a slave?
You are actually cheering your own enslavement. And you have every right to do so. But you have ZERO right to do that to me or my children.
Actually I am pointing out how YOU are setting up your own children for enslavement (unless you really are in that top 1%, which then makes a lot of your statements make a lot more sense) and saying you have ZERO right to chain my kid to yours.
sabot_round
02-16-2014, 01:09
Because their population has been nurtured by gov.
But if these grasshoppers are so incompetent as not to be able (if we are to believe their need) to feed themselves, how can they be a threat? They are only a threat to the ants because the ants allow it foolishly thinking that they will be able to keep enough for themselves.
The grasshopper problem would resolve itself if the ants would cut them off. They would either have to behave more like ants or face starvation.
Yes, the morality here would be debated. But is it more just that everyone starve?
You get no argument from me. I'm just pointing out the obvious.[Beer]
...and the wealth was spread around;
The Microsoft Millionaires Come of Age (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/29/business/yourmoney/29millionaire.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0)
Hound, you're off the mark with the axe you're grinding.
ya, I am remembering all of the small startups they crushed, becuase of their size and market share. I am wondering if that 10k number of millionaires could not have been multipled by the number of companies they crushed? I am thinking about one of the last companies standing that outlasted most of the others and when it was on the ropes and about to declare bankruptcy had to have M$ bail it out. Now you might say that was M$ being benevolent, except for the fact that the only reason they did it was that the bad ol' Government was going to do to M$ what it did to MaBell. You may have heard of it... Apple. How many millionaries have come out of that company. How many innovations. How much have we benefited from that competition and true capitalism. Speaking of MaBell, how many millionaires have been created when that monopoly was broken up and we could all pick who had our phone business. I am sure many of you remember paying your right arm to call across the other side of a city where now, because of regulated capitalism, we can call across the world for the same price of penny's.
Really not feeling too off the mark here.
And PS..that bad guy Bill Gates...why don't you check out his foundation before you continue to say how greedy he is.
Already covered that. I don't really think we should have charity by those who hoarded the money to begin with as benefactors be the model for a free America. That would be an .......... aristocracy. I would rather have those that work hard for their money get paid for that work in the first place so they can pay for their own kids college instead of having to go to the Gates building XYZ on the Gates scholorship. It just seems to me a better way for people to be more responsible for their own future.
hollohas
02-16-2014, 09:02
Hound, if your buddy on the presses isn't getting paid what he thinks he's worth, he's free to go get a new job. If he doesn't have the skills for another job, he needs to get some training. The "man" isn't holding him back. There is still opportunity out there for everyone...people just have to look for it.
I work with business owners everyday who say they are looking for help. The problem is that it's for skilled jobs and there aren't enough skilled laborers. So they have to hire people without experience, and pay them accordingly. The employee quickly quits because they think they aren't being paid enough. Had those same employees put in the time and hard work, they would gain experience and increase their pay.
Employees who work in my company's warehouse do the same thing. We hire unskilled people with no resume, to do unskilled labor and pay them accordingly. They think they are worth more. So they soon get sour and quit...the average stay is just a few months. If they stuck it out, they would have opportunity to climb the ladder and get more pay...some of their predecessors have done just that.
People always think their work is worth more than it actually is. Our society seems to have this inflated ego of itself. We are not all worth the same. I know it's hard to believe, but some people actually produce more than others.
I worked for years at $5.15/hr. I developed good work ethic, skills outside of the minimum wage paying job, searched for opportunities, went after those opportunities with intensity and have got myself into a place that I can singlehandedly support my entire family. I didn't stay at the minimum wage job and complain that I wasn't being paid enough. I bettered myself, worked my ass off to gain skills and found new jobs. I dug myself out...no one handed me anything. And I won't stop now. I will still search for opportunities where I can grow.
You say businesses produce wealth but don't distribute it Then who does? Everyone here has what they have because they earned money working for a business...a business that distributed some of it's profits to them. That my be as an employee or an owner, but the only money any of us have came from a company selling goods or services...period.
Hound, if your buddy on the presses isn't getting paid what he thinks he's worth, he's free to go get a new job. If he doesn't have the skills for another job, he needs to get some training. The "man" isn't holding him back. There is still opportunity out there for everyone...people just have to look for it.
I work with business owners everyday who say they are looking for help. The problem is that it's for skilled jobs and there aren't enough skilled laborers. So they have to hire people without experience, and pay them accordingly. The employee quickly quits because they think they aren't being paid enough. Had those same employees put in the time and hard work, they would gain experience and increase their pay.
Employees who work in my company's warehouse do the same thing. We hire unskilled people with no resume, to do unskilled labor and pay them accordingly. They think they are worth more. So they soon get sour and quit...the average stay is just a few months. If they stuck it out, they would have opportunity to climb the ladder and get more pay...some of their predecessors have done just that.
People always think their work is worth more than it actually is. Our society seems to have this inflated ego of itself. We are not all worth the same. I know it's hard to believe, but some people actually produce more than others.
I worked for years at $5.15/hr. I developed good work ethic, skills outside of the minimum wage paying job, searched for opportunities, went after those opportunities with intensity and have got myself into a place that I can singlehandedly support my entire family. I didn't stay at the minimum wage job and complain that I wasn't being paid enough. I bettered myself, worked my ass off to gain skills and found new jobs. I dug myself out...no one handed me anything. And I won't stop now. I will still search for opportunities where I can grow.
You say businesses produce wealth but don't distribute it Then who does? Everyone here has what they have because they earned money working for a business...a business that distributed some of it's profits to them. That my be as an employee or an owner, but the only money any of us have came from a company selling goods or services...period.
Says "the man". Betcha walked uphill both ways too. The fact is, when you were coming up there was less requirement for for the education needed today and the schools were better at the time. Here is where the government has failed us by not propperly preparing kids for this jobs but then again we have been taking money away from schools for years. You get what you pay for.
Thanks for making my point though. It used to be, as long as you had a high school deploma you could get a decent job to support yourself. You were not driving a Bently but you had all the basics. I too worked the minimum wage jobs, then went in the Navy where the pay sucked but the education/experience was great. Now the pay still sucks and the education is not what it used to be. All of this was 20-30 years ago and it that 20-30 years..... Minimum wage has gone from $2+ dollars to now $7+ dollars. So in that time a $5 raise. At the same time gas has gone from .69 to up to $5 at times. Milk, eggs, bread..... same thing. My rent was $180. I could support my self back then now... Not so much on that wage. If your business owners want skilled workers then either they have to pay to train them or pay taxes so the government can. You can't pay minimum wage and expect somebody to be able to run much of the equipment out there today. You will notice my examples were highly skilled press mechcanics, developers, etc. These are HIGHLY skilled people still getting lowballed. I see it all the time. "The man" wants something for nothing because capitalism means greed to them. It does not work that way.... As we are seeing with not being able staff and the number of jobs that are low paying service jobs.
Minimum wage was never intended to be a carreer.
It was a start, to motivate someone to establish a Skill. That way they could move up the ladder/workforce and then better themselves.
Anyone wanting to stay in that position and then bitch about not making enough is laughable.
Hound,
Capitalism distributes wealth unequally, it is the nature of things.
If you were getting your house painted and three solid reputable companies using the exact same materials put bids in. Would you pay the one with the highest cost to paint, so he could pay his employees more, or the best value?? I'd hire the best value.
Companies also look for the best value for their money, because it is the prudent thing to do. That sir is capitalism, providing something of value at a better price to the customer.
Being wealthy is not a bad thing. The owner of a business often times puts his/her life savings, takes out loans on their homes and borrow a shit pot of money to start a business. Most businesses don't make it very far, and the owner loses all of his own money. The reason they/business owners should be able to keep their profits is they have more invested and taken risks an employee never will. The ant/farmer/business owner is the same guy. All three produce/contribute something of value.
The grasshopper on the other hand isn't your buddy who works his ass off, it is the guy who stays home playing video games, watching porn and eating Cheetos all day long and gets money from the taxes you buddy and I pay. Then he goes to the free clinic or other government subsidized medical provider and with a worried look asks the doctor why his junk is orange.
Your buddy is an ant because he produces something of value.
As for your comment about how much eggs, butter, bread and milk have become more expensive. Some reasons for this are more taxes being paid across the board; remember when the government raises taxes on a company who really pays the taxes?? The customers do, because the companies pass the cost of doing business on to them. One of the other reasons is the printing of more money. More dollars in circulation equals less value per dollar.
Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.
Winston Churchill
Hound,
I believe the point the you are missing, that has everyone in this thread against your posts, is that this is about personal responsibility and character, and not simply receiving .gov assistance.
The "grasshoppers" being referenced in this thread are NOT simply anyone that receives assistance, but those that will not be able to adjust to that assistance being taken away. Your friends, and most of your other examples, do not fit the definition of grasshopper, in relation to this thread. They will, through continued hard work, perserverance (sp?) and fortitude, continue to provide for their families. As a specific example, your "printer" friend, though not wildly rich, has likely instituted some "prepper" (for lack of a better descriptor) type stockpile to look out for his family. Is that a fair assumption? And your wealthy friend, may or may not have. There is not enough about his background and character in your posts to say. If he hasn't, then he should. His monetary wealth will be for naught, should the economy catastrophically collapse, and at that point, his character will be tested, and his status as ant or grasshopper will be somewhat revealed.
The missed point is that this thread is not about disparity in compensation, and whether one receives .gov assistance. This thread is more about the propensity of the "grasshopper" element in this scenario becoming more akin to a swarm of locust, when their "free lunch" disappears.
Just my opinion, after reading this thread through post #32. This is in no way meant to be a personal attack towards Hound. I feel like he just got a little derailed from OP, and some of his valid arguments could flourish in aa different thread, more related to those issues.
If ants would only work for other ants there would't be a problem. Discontent is ugly. It's simply not true that an ambitious citizen of this great country can't get ahead. At times they are held by by greedy people and over regulation aimed at "leveling the playing field". But with sacrifice and hard work success is more than likely. The real problem is the entitlement attitude. We are blessed to live in a country where our poorest citizens are far wealthier than the mass majority of the world. If your family income was over $10,000 you are wealthier than 80% of the world population. If it's $50,000 or more a year, you make more than 99% of the world. That can either make you grateful or unhappy because you resent the other 1%. I would wager that in the terms of justice that the western civilized world is much wealthier than even that.
Regardless of your party affiliation, us Americans have largely fallen prey to the message of discontent that is preached by both sides. There is absolutely nothing wrong or shameful about being poor if it's not the result of laziness. And it's a rare case that someone in this great country finds themselves in that position and they don't receive help. Life isn't perfect. Injustice is always present in some form. The fact is it is taken serious here and dealt with. Sure its' justice is served in imperfection. We're human. The very real danger is the division that social activism brings. Hate and discontent is evil regardless of the source. It's ironic that social activism tends to polarize and demonize. I won't give a bum in Grand Junction a penny and that makes me a bad person in a humanist view. But I will and have give my last 100$ to a friend in honest need. And I personally know scores of good Americans who do that. And that is true wealth. It's not measured in dollars and that is a fact. A point mostly missed in materialistic "grasshoppers". I would wager to say the most vile corporate master has done more good than the best "grasshopper".
I am truly thankful that my great grandfather emigrated here shortly after the reds won in Russia. I've done some travelling in this world and this country wins by the measure of commitment to good. Doesn't make us perfect. Perfection is the enemy of good.
Puts soapbox away.
When you have 3rd generation welfare families in society, something is really wrong.
There is no revisionist history here. Free enterprise does not include monopoly's. Just look to the Robber barons and see the eventual end to what you espouse. Government does not have all the answers but niether does unregulated free enterprise/capitalism. There HAS to be a balance. Too much from either side hurts the middle class.
By the same token capitalism can only create wealth it does not distribute it. Yes they create jobs but at the same time only to maximize their own profits. This is not for the common good but for the few at the top. Workers/commoners are paid as little as possible to maintain a workforce. They are then told to be glad they even have a job. The majority of people do not see the benefit of their labor their Lords do. When the balance of wealth is tipped too far to the top 1% is when we see recessions and depressions because the economic pump runs dry due to too much concentration of wealth.
Can you name one "greedy capitalist pig" that didn't get "filthy" rich through the hiring or investment of capital? Just one. NAME JUST ONE!
No, you can't. Capitalists create opportunity for everyone in an economy where all people of various skill level can exchange their labor for pay. This is the most just economic system ever known to man! A system where a man who wants a job can get a job. Compare and contrast to our status quo. Millions who have been priced out of jobs and given up because it's easier to get a check.
Capitalists also invest and create jobs, innovation, and actual economic growth (not inflation called growth). How much economic value have your collectivist platitudes created?
Common good you say? What is the common good? Monsters espousing your ideas, even using your same words, have murdered millions in the name of the common good.
Here we agree. The poor don't pay taxes because they don't have enough to tax. The rich don't pay taxes because they get the laws to provide them loopholes. Rommney lost because he admitted this to the commoners. He said straight out that he thought he was entiltled to millions simply because he was wealthy and the rigged laws say this is OK. That leaves the shrinking middle class to bare the burden of both sides. So why again is it a bad thing for those with more to pay more. Like I said with the 91% taxes, the government did not actually get the money. It forced the top to redistribute it themselves (through good paying jobs) thus creating a large portion of the middle class out of those that came back from WWII.
'They' live not within their means... they live off our means. My buddy on the presses does his best to live within his means and will not retire because he was never paid what his labor was worth. Their is NOTHING ANY of us could do in our lifetime that could be worth a Billion dollars. Esinhower saved our country and was not worth that much. Why? Because it was a team of people's labors that created that won the war and/or created the wealth but only a few who benefit from that wealth. You defend the guy doing nothing and getting 10K in a day while the guy busting his ass will NEVER retire and wonder who is a slave?
You make it sound like successful people don't work. I'd like to show you what my day is like. You probably couldn't handle it. Your ignorant assumptions not only marginalize successful people, but by vilifying them you are distancing yourself from success.
Your buddy makes more than I made for nearly 10 years working my way up with hard work and (practical/real) education. I had constant 70+ hour work weeks and even a few all-nighters--in one 48 hour period I had worked 36 hours. This doesn't include side ventures (many of which failed).
Do you not understand if your buddy ever "makes it" you are laying the groundwork to take his success from him? Thereby holding him down and demoralizing him in the name of "leveling the playing field?"
Some friend he has.
The biggest threat to the middle class isn't the "rich" who create jobs and opportunities. It is the welfare demographic (grasshoppers) that will vote the middle class worker's paycheck away from him. Look at the economics without your agenda. Can you tell me how the 90M Americans who still work (20M+ of which are gov employees) are going to pay off $120T+ in debt and unfunded liabilities? No you can't. That is money spent/pledged for the purpose of leveling the playing field and we can't afford it.
http://www.usdebtclock.org/
You can take every penny the "rich" have, we'll still be broke. But far worse than that, your ideas would deny us the opportunity to recover because you will have eliminated the natural incentive to produce. You will have spent all stored capital and intellectual property which was 230+ years in the making. It will be gone, people will be hungry and dying. How will you level the playing the field then?
Actually I am pointing out how YOU are setting up your own children for enslavement (unless you really are in that top 1%, which then makes a lot of your statements make a lot more sense) and saying you have ZERO right to chain my kid to yours.
How is wanting my children to keep their paychecks and exchange their labor in a free market enslavement? That is the exact opposite of enslavement.
A MAN WHO DOESN'T OWN HIS LABOR IS A SLAVE.
Say that over and over until you get it. You are proposing slavery. You are defending it will empty emotional arguments, revisionist history, and agenda.
Take my advice; believing in the collectivist lie won't make you wealthy. You might feel better voting someone else down to your level, but that feeling will subside and be replaced with despair as you witness the de-development of the United States that will equally deny everyone opportunity (I guess that's your utopia).
History is full of where your ideas lead. Talk less, read more.
Can you name one "greedy capitalist pig" that didn't get "filthy" rich through the hiring or investment of capital? Just one. NAME JUST ONE!
Madoff, Savings and Loan officers, AIG officers. To name a few.
No, you can't. ya... Just did. All of them crooks. Plenty where that came from. The biggest difference is between those that got caught and those that did it legally.
Capitalists create opportunity for everyone in an economy where all people of various skill level can exchange their labor for pay. This is the most just economic system ever known to man! A system where a man who wants a job can get a job. Compare and contrast to our status quo. Millions who have been priced out of jobs and given up because it's easier to get a check.
Capitalists also invest and create jobs, innovation, and actual economic growth (not inflation called growth). How much economic value have your collectivist platitudes created?
Common good you say? What is the common good? Monsters espousing your ideas, even using your same words, have murdered millions in the name of the common good.
Getting a bit emotional here but millions have been killed by both governments and capitalists. Keep worshipping at that alter though. Your gods may yet answer you.
You make it sound like successful people don't work. I'd like to show you what my day is like. You probably couldn't handle it. Your ignorant assumptions not only marginalize successful people, but by vilifying them you are distancing yourself from success.
Your buddy makes more than I made for nearly 10 years working my way up with hard work and (practical/real) education. I had constant 70+ hour work weeks and even a few all-nighters--in one 48 hour period I had worked 36 hours. This doesn't include side ventures (many of which failed).
Do you not understand if your buddy ever "makes it" you are laying the groundwork to take his success from him? Thereby holding him down and demoralizing him in the name of "leveling the playing field?"
Some friend he has.
The biggest threat to the middle class isn't the "rich" who create jobs and opportunities. It is the welfare demographic (grasshoppers) that will vote the middle class worker's paycheck away from him. Look at the economics without your agenda. Can you tell me how the 90M Americans who still work (20M+ of which are gov employees) are going to pay off $120T+ in debt and unfunded liabilities? No you can't. That is money spent/pledged for the purpose of leveling the playing field and we can't afford it.
http://www.usdebtclock.org/
You can take every penny the "rich" have, we'll still be broke. But far worse than that, your ideas would deny us the opportunity to recover because you will have eliminated the natural incentive to produce. You will have spent all stored capital and intellectual property which was 230+ years in the making. It will be gone, people will be hungry and dying. How will you level the playing the field then?
Nice rant.. Little too emtional for me, a little short on fact(being nice about it) but you gave it a good go. Couple of questions...... Who do you think 'holds' all that debt? Where do you think all that wealth actually IS? Do you even know how much we make in a year? Many in the middle class are successful and if you have actually read anything I have written you know that is who I have been wanting to protect.
BTW: 120 trillion ..... Try getting real numbers http://www.treasurydirect.gov/NP/debt/current from those that actually count it, not political functionaries. It is closer to 16-17 trillion. Still a lot of money but not 120T.
How is wanting my children to keep their paychecks and exchange their labor in a free market enslavement? That is the exact opposite of enslavement.
A MAN WHO DOESN'T OWN HIS LABOR IS A SLAVE.
Say that over and over until you get it. You are proposing slavery. You are defending it will empty emotional arguments, revisionist history, and agenda.
Take my advice; believing in the collectivist lie won't make you wealthy.
I have never been part of the "collective" thought as you show yourself to be while believing you are free and yet selling your children into the same 'enslavement'. It is sad you don't even see it, believing yourself to be above others while actually accepting it. I have not talked in emotion, only in personal experience and long debates with many people. Fools don't know they are fools. I am sure you think I am one. I will be capable of retiring shortly and as my signature points out... I look forward to not caring as much as I do today.
You might feel better voting someone else down to your level, but that feeling will subside and be replaced with despair as you witness the de-development of the United States that will equally deny everyone opportunity (I guess that's your utopia).
The funny thing is, you don't know my level. Odds are your not even close. I talk from seeing others suffer and knowing how the rich take advantage of the poor, first hand. When 87 people hold more wealth than 3.5 billion there is something wrong.
History is full of where your ideas lead. Talk less, read more.
yes, yes history is full of where my ideas lead and I have pointed them out while you have stuck to Fox talking points. It shows a lack of reading and understanding history on your part.
If ants would only work for other ants there would't be a problem. Discontent is ugly. It's simply not true that an ambitious citizen of this great country can't get ahead. At times they are held by by greedy people and over regulation aimed at "leveling the playing field". But with sacrifice and hard work success is more than likely. The real problem is the entitlement attitude. We are blessed to live in a country where our poorest citizens are far wealthier than the mass majority of the world. If your family income was over $10,000 you are wealthier than 80% of the world population. If it's $50,000 or more a year, you make more than 99% of the world. That can either make you grateful or unhappy because you resent the other 1%. I would wager that in the terms of justice that the western civilized world is much wealthier than even that.
Regardless of your party affiliation, us Americans have largely fallen prey to the message of discontent that is preached by both sides. There is absolutely nothing wrong or shameful about being poor if it's not the result of laziness. And it's a rare case that someone in this great country finds themselves in that position and they don't receive help. Life isn't perfect. Injustice is always present in some form. The fact is it is taken serious here and dealt with. Sure its' justice is served in imperfection. We're human. The very real danger is the division that social activism brings. Hate and discontent is evil regardless of the source. It's ironic that social activism tends to polarize and demonize. I won't give a bum in Grand Junction a penny and that makes me a bad person in a humanist view. But I will and have give my last 100$ to a friend in honest need. And I personally know scores of good Americans who do that. And that is true wealth. It's not measured in dollars and that is a fact. A point mostly missed in materialistic "grasshoppers". I would wager to say the most vile corporate master has done more good than the best "grasshopper".
I am truly thankful that my great grandfather emigrated here shortly after the reds won in Russia. I've done some travelling in this world and this country wins by the measure of commitment to good. Doesn't make us perfect. Perfection is the enemy of good.
Puts soapbox away.
I think I agree with most of this. It is actually that last .1% that take the most advantage of the rest. The issue is just how staggeringly they TAKE from the rest. Those that are just laying around truly are 'grasshoppers'. If you read back through everything I have said it is to those that do work were a predicate for the statements that followed. I think the difference is that I class those that are 'grasshoppers' from both the poor that do not work and the wealthy that work to take so much. The generocity of the average American is amazing and we truly do live in a great country.
hollohas
02-16-2014, 19:49
Hound, you refuse to address the point of the original post. People with Individual responsibility who work hard for what they get vs laziness and the entitlement mentality of people who think they deserve everything without working at all.
hollohas
02-16-2014, 20:04
those that are 'grasshoppers' from both the poor that do not work and the wealthy that work to take so much. The generocity of the average American is amazing and we truly do live in a great country.
Exactly. It's not about dollar bills.
Hound,
I believe the point the you are missing, that has everyone in this thread against your posts, is that this is about personal responsibility and character, and not simply receiving .gov assistance.
The "grasshoppers" being referenced in this thread are NOT simply anyone that receives assistance, but those that will not be able to adjust to that assistance being taken away. Your friends, and most of your other examples, do not fit the definition of grasshopper, in relation to this thread. They will, through continued hard work, perserverance (sp?) and fortitude, continue to provide for their families. As a specific example, your "printer" friend, though not wildly rich, has likely instituted some "prepper" (for lack of a better descriptor) type stockpile to look out for his family. Is that a fair assumption?
I wish he could have. He came from abject poverty and did much better than his parents (a testament to the American Dream). Like his parents, I think he still fell short and will be thrown away as a grasshopper even after so much work. That is a big part of where my statements have come from. That and many other people that work hard, many who served their country but were never able to "make it". I don't think everbody should have the big house or fancy car (that is for those that excel) but if you have worked hard and honestly you should be able to live and at some point retire. So many have worked and will never see retirement except through those handouts and welfare. This was the idea behind Social Security and Medicare (we were suppsed to be creating our own mini pensions) but the Government is squandering these with guidance from the commercial world. My generation is regularly told not to expect it even though we have paid so much into it. Even the current generation is not getting what they were promised. I also have a son that will never 'excel'. He will probably be able to work but he will never 'get ahead' and there will come a day my wife and I will not be here....... We plan but can only do so much.
And your wealthy friend, may or may not have. There is not enough about his background and character in your posts to say. If he hasn't, then he should. His monetary wealth will be for naught, should the economy catastrophically collapse, and at that point, his character will be tested, and his status as ant or grasshopper will be somewhat revealed.
The missed point is that this thread is not about disparity in compensation, and whether one receives .gov assistance. This thread is more about the propensity of the "grasshopper" element in this scenario becoming more akin to a swarm of locust, when their "free lunch" disappears.
Those that don't work... Screw'em if they are able to. If you have the means and don't save... Same thing. Just be careful of throwing to broad a net with who is getting a 'free lunch'. I generally hate generalities ;)
Grasshoppers are those that take more than they put in or don't plan on a future. You can find both of these throughout the economic range. Not everybody is able to plan for the future when they are living paycheck to paycheck.
Just my opinion, after reading this thread through post #32. This is in no way meant to be a personal attack towards Hound. I feel like he just got a little derailed from OP, and some of his valid arguments could flourish in aa different thread, more related to those issues.
Most of the responses here have not been attacks and not too emotional. It is good to be able to inject a different point of view. For the most part this forum accepts other views.
hollohas
02-16-2014, 20:46
This was the idea behind Social Security and Medicare (we were suppsed to be creating our own mini pensions) but the Government is squandering these with guidance from the commercial world.
You lost me again with your dislike of the commercial world. You're right, we can't expect SS to payout for us. But that is because of the .gov mishandling it on their own accord, not at the guidance of the commercial world. Private retirement funds will still be paying out long after SS stops. And private commercial retirement funds have a much larger return on investment too. If the gov had actually taken some guidance from the commercial world, maybe SS would be a healthy program.
Madoff, Savings and Loan officers, AIG officers. To name a few.
ya... Just did. All of them crooks. Plenty where that came from. The biggest difference is between those that got caught and those that did it legally.
Those examples... They all HIRED EMPLOYEES! Do you see what you did there? Didn't think so... Capitalism (economic freedom) is so great that even when it fails it succeeds.
Getting a bit emotional here but millions have been killed by both governments and capitalists. Keep worshipping at that alter though. Your gods may yet answer you.
Nice rant.. Little too emtional for me, a little short on fact(being nice about it) but you gave it a good go. Couple of questions...... Who do you think 'holds' all that debt? Where do you think all that wealth actually IS? Do you even know how much we make in a year? Many in the middle class are successful and if you have actually read anything I have written you know that is who I have been wanting to protect.
BTW: 120 trillion ..... Try getting real numbers http://www.treasurydirect.gov/NP/debt/current from those that actually count it, not political functionaries. It is closer to 16-17 trillion. Still a lot of money but not 120T.
More collectivist dishonesty. Go to the link I provided like I suggested the first time...
http://www.usdebtclock.org/
US National Debt: $17T
Debt per Taxpayer: $149,971
Unfunded Liabilities: $127T
per Taxpayer: $1,109,091
Total Debt and Liabilities: $144T
per Taxpayer: $1,259,062
$144T is a GAAP number. The same number that would be on our balance sheet if the government played by the rules (while creating an even playing field).
That is the debt you have put on your children's heads with your stupidity. That is your even playing field. But Bill Gates keeps you up at night?
We could pick the pocket of every American for the next nine years, not allowing him to buy food, housing, energy, or receive any of his paycheck, and still not pay that off (assuming current GDP). You want more taxes? Take it all. Close all the corporations and cap everyone's pay. Guess well your programs get funded then!
I have never been part of the "collective" thought as you show yourself to be while believing you are free and yet selling your children into the same 'enslavement'. It is sad you don't even see it, believing yourself to be above others while actually accepting it. I have not talked in emotion, only in personal experience and long debates with many people. Fools don't know they are fools. I am sure you think I am one. I will be capable of retiring shortly and as my signature points out... I look forward to not caring as much as I do today.
You are regurgitating the same tired ideas that have bankrupted humanity. You are nothing original. Yes, it's all emotional--read your own posts. Marked with envy and anger ready to pull successful people down in the mistaken belief it will elevate you. Well, it won't.
The funny thing is, you don't know my level. Odds are your not even close. I talk from seeing others suffer and knowing how the rich take advantage of the poor, first hand. When 87 people hold more wealth than 3.5 billion there is something wrong.
yes, yes history is full of where my ideas lead and I have pointed them out while you have stuck to Fox talking points. It shows a lack of reading and understanding history on your part.
Your level? What is that supposed to mean? That you hail from a higher caste? Typical Liberal BS believing you're some kind of intellectual elite and your ideas are somehow superior.
Here's a excerpt from something I am posting in another thread tonight (if you can shut your mouth long enough to read it). This where your ideas lead. Behold your Liberal utopia...
Our founder, Vladimir Lenin, was portrayed as a noble, charismatic, and smart man -- the champion of the underdog (the working class), the seeker of equality, defeater of the rich. The humble man with common ideas who was destined for greatness.
[snip]
As much as my family shielded me from their troubles, they couldn't protect me from factors beyond their control. They couldn't raise my level of living above theirs. And they certainly couldn't get me anesthetics for dental visits. Sitting in the gray, sterile corridor for two hours, hearing the sobbing of the kids already in the dental chair as their teeth were drilled without anesthetics, water, or suction, and knowing that your turn was coming -- some handled it better than others.
In the local clinic, needles were resterilized and reused. Ambulances took three hours to arrive, if they came at all.
That was our "free" healthcare.
We also lived in a "free" apartment, which was suffocatingly small by American standards, and it took years, if not decades, for an average couple to obtain such a place. Usually, several generations of a family lived under one roof until the government bestowed upon its citizens another gray five- to sixteen-story building that looked just like its gray neighbor and had the same exact green-painted swings in the yard.
[snip]
You see how original you are? Lenin was slinging the same shit 90 years ago. It only lead to the murder of 10M innocent people. All middle class farmers called "Kulaks." All workers (ants) who were starved by grasshoppers who wanted a level playing field. And in the end they all suffered.
You lost me again with your dislike of the commercial world. You're right, we can't expect SS to payout for us. But that is because of the .gov mishandling it on their own accord, not at the guidance of the commercial world. Private retirement funds will still be paying out long after SS stops. And private commercial retirement funds have a much larger return on investment too. If the gov had actually taken some guidance from the commercial world, maybe SS would be a healthy program.
Social Security is having issues because of dipping into it during the Reagan years. I remember watching the debates. Those private commercial retirements won't survive another Great.... Whatever comes next. They have bounced back now but as an example my father got screwed because it hit at just the wrong time.
That was the point of SS. It was ALWAYs supposed to be there... Regardless and would have been if not raided. They did take commercial guidance..... And gave the money to fund the indutrial military complex of 400 ships and crap like StarWars.
BTW: I don't hate capitalism or the commercial world. They are good overall. What I do hate are monopoly's and not sharing in the prosperity. Lowballing the honest work of those where the rubber meets the road in a business. I find great fault with both Government and MegaCompanies. I support small companies and small business everytime I can. I have personally seen the Corporate, Union and Government shaft the middle class in my time. I didn't agree with any of them when it was happening. It usually happens when they are out of balance and the greed of a few feeds on the rest of us.
Those examples... They all HIRED EMPLOYEES! Do you see what you did there? Didn't think so... Capitalism (economic freedom) is so great that even when it fails it succeeds.
More collectivist dishonesty. Go to the link I provided like I suggested the first time...
http://www.usdebtclock.org/
US National Debt: $17T
Debt per Taxpayer: $149,971
Unfunded Liabilities: $127T
per Taxpayer: $1,109,091
Total Debt and Liabilities: $144T
per Taxpayer: $1,259,062
$144T is a GAAP number. The same number that would be on our balance sheet if the government played by the rules (while creating an even playing field).
That is the debt you have put on your children's heads with your stupidity. That is your even playing field. But Bill Gates keeps you up at night?
We could pick the pocket of every American for the next nine years, not allowing him to buy food, housing, energy, or receive any of his paycheck, and still not pay that off (assuming current GDP). You want more taxes? Take it all. Close all the corporations and cap everyone's pay. Guess well your programs get funded then!
You are regurgitating the same tired ideas that have bankrupted humanity. You are nothing original. Yes, it's all emotional--read your own posts. Marked with envy and anger ready to pull successful people down in the mistaken belief it will elevate you. Well, it won't.
Your level? What is that supposed to mean? That you hail from a higher caste? Typical Liberal BS believing you're some kind of intellectual elite and your ideas are somehow superior.
Here's a excerpt from something I am posting in another thread tonight (if you can shut your mouth long enough to read it). This where your ideas lead. Behold your Liberal utopia...
You see how original you are? Lenin was slinging the same shit 90 years ago. It only lead to the murder of 10M innocent people. All middle class farmers called "Kulaks." All workers (ants) who were starved by grasshoppers who wanted a level playing field. And in the end they all suffered.
So emotional and so clueless. The refuge of the desperate.
Social Security is having issues because of dipping into it during the Reagan years.
Do your research before putting your foot in your mouth. It was not Reagan, but the Dems that have always mandated the raiding of SS. Every time. Look it up.
ETA: Reagan did sign into law taxes on SS earnings, but only above a certain income threshold...Something you should applaud, given your statements in this thread. (If you don't get that, it means that if you are making a certain amount of income, in addition to SS, a portion of your SS may be taxed as income.) BTW, from my personal perspective, getting a payout from SS (which I do not), which you, as an idividual have paid into (mandated by .gov, none the less), is not a .gov handout. The travesty lies in the fact that I will likely never see a cent of SS benefit myself, because I am a productive, competent contributor to society, and SS will have been long since sucked dry by so many, that somehow were paid benefits, yet never contributed to the fund.
Also interesting is that in your rebuttal to my reply, you are now referring to your printer repair friend in the past tense. And now your child has no chance to excel (your statement). What's up with that? Are you the repair guy. Is it your child you were referring to in your original reference to said repair guy? You need to start your own bitch thread to bitch about what you want to bitch about. This thread was started to comment on the current state of the rampant FSA element in society, and not the poor, down-trodden, defeated working class in our society that cannot get ahead, because they are being held back by the system. Better your lot in life, or accept it.
I am not inclined to respond further in this thread.
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Do your research before putting your foot in your mouth. It was not Reagan, but the Dems that have always mandated the raiding of SS. Every time. Look it up.
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My foot is fine. Lived it. Remember the debates. Don't need to look it up.
Do your research before putting your foot in your mouth. It was not Reagan, but the Dems that have always mandated the raiding of SS. Every time. Look it up.
ETA: Reagan did sign into law taxes on SS earnings, but only above a certain income threshold...Something you should applaud, given your statements in this thread. (If you don't get that, it means that if you are making a certain amount of income, in addition to SS, a portion of your SS may be taxed as income.)
Actually he put through MANY more laws than that on SS. Tip O'Niel once said of Reagan policies it was "one big Christmas party for the rich." Reagan ran up the bill with the treasury on defense spending that tapped into the surplus that SS was supposed to put away for future generations. These were the 'selling our kids future' debates of the time. Um.... For your next statement.... That was our future they were debating.
BTW, from my personal perspective, getting a payout from SS (which I do not), which you, as an idividual have paid into (mandated by .gov, none the less), is not a .gov handout. The travesty lies in the fact that I will likely never see a cent of SS benefit myself, because I am a productive, competent contributor to society, and SS will have been long since sucked dry by so many, that somehow were paid benefits, yet never contributed to the fund.
Actually we agree here for the most part. Read below for the exceptions, I am good with.
Also interesting is that in your rebuttal to my reply, you are now referring to your printer repair friend in the past tense.
He is quickly approaching retirement age and the fact is at his level of earning he has no chance of being able to retire. The past tense is appropriate because there is nothing he can really do at this point.
And now your child has no chance to excel (your statement). What's up with that? Are you the repair guy. Is it your child you were referring to in your original reference to said repair guy? You need to start your own bitch thread to bitch about what you want to bitch about. This thread was started to comment on the current state of the rampant FSA element in society, and not the poor, down-trodden, defeated working class in our society that cannot get ahead, because they are being held back by the system. Better your lot in life, or accept it.
My son is developmentally challenged as it seems so many are now days. I am not the guy on the press's and not 'just bitching'. It adds another level of difficulty to my own circumstances and was only brought up because many people (and their families) are in my son's shoes. You can't help how you are when you come out or what happens to you in life. Some are perfectly healthy and have every chance to excel but don't. Others come out with varying degrees of "challenges" because ... It happens. My son had over 37 operations before he was a year old. It is a miracle he is alive and my wife is an amazing mother. I am lucky to have both in so many ways. Still others have things happen to them completly out of their control like an IED blowing up or just the pressure of being shot at is too much. 2 out of 3 of these are not 'Grasshoppers' yet they would fit nicely into the first post of this thread since they may get assistance.
am not inclined to respond further in this thread.
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Reply or not is your own decision. I have simply tried to respond in kind to your and others responses as this is a good debate. Debate being a good exchange of point and counter point without emotion. Once emotion comes into it, its just an argument and nobody is really listening. Many on this forum claim to be open to opinions (and I have found that to be mostly true). I have shared mine. We differ, and that is healthy. It stops the echo chambers I started seeing.
Actually he put through MANY more laws than that on SS. Tip O'Niel once said of Reagan policies it was "one big Christmas party for the rich." Reagan ran up the bill with the treasury on defense spending that tapped into the surplus that SS was supposed to put away for future generations. These were the 'selling our kids future' debates of the time. Um.... For your next statement.... That was our future they were debating.
I will concede, in a sense, on this point. We can both continue to dig up instances where BOTH sides have been effectively screwing us, and our future generations, over. (that could be a whole thread on its own)
He is quickly approaching retirement age and the fact is at his level of earning he has no chance of being able to retire. The past tense is appropriate because there is nothing he can really do at this point.
Point taken. But still, he sounds like a survivor to me, not a grasshopper. Sad that so many can no longer/will not be able to acheive the dream of a comfortable retirement.
My son is developmentally challenged as it seems so many are now days. I am not the guy on the press's and not 'just bitching'. It adds another level of difficulty to my own circumstances and was only brought up because many people (and their families) are in my son's shoes. You can't help how you are when you come out or what happens to you in life. Some are perfectly healthy and have every chance to excel but don't. Others come out with varying degrees of "challenges" because ... It happens. My son had over 37 operations before he was a year old. It is a miracle he is alive and my wife is an amazing mother. I am lucky to have both in so many ways.
My heart sincerely goes out to you, and all families who deal with this challenge on a daily basis. The weight of it is not lost on me. I am truly happy for you that he is still with you.
Still others have things happen to them completly out of their control like an IED blowing up or just the pressure of being shot at is too much. 2 out of 3 of these are not 'Grasshoppers' yet they would fit nicely into the first post of this thread since they may get assistance.
And that bolded last bit ^^^ is where I feel you are still missing the point of this thread. You were very quick to generalize that all people receiving assistance were being called out.
My understanding of this thread is that the "Grasshoppers" referred to in this thread, do not include people in the above snippet. The GH's being referenced are those that are capable, yet unwilling, to get off the dole. Those same GH's will be complaining the loudest, and likely causing the most disruption, when their free stuff stops flowing in. Those who are truly qualified, and deserving, of .gov assistance are typically not the issue.
There are many, many true GH's out there gaming the system. I do not begrudge anyone of deserved assistance, and do not simply count them as GH's merely for accepting assistance. That, in my opinion, is the disconnect that has spun this thread wild. The OP generalizes about the FSA types/societal sponges being the GH's, you expanded that generalization to include anyone who receives any form of assistance in that description. It is my opinion that many of the other members undertood it the same way.
And then the fun started. /sarcasm
.... Many on this forum claim to be open to opinions (and I have found that to be mostly true). I have shared mine. We differ, and that is healthy.
Agreed.
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