Weird Ejection Marks?!

[Buckaroobonsai]

Bushmaster Varminter. Never happened before today. Rounds fired and ejected fine, but have weird markings. Looks like a small crescent shape on one side, and a bigger one on the other side. Tula primers which have never been an issue before, but first time using ZMAX 50 grain .223 with 25 grains of H322. All brass fully sized and trimmed to spec. Some of the primers even came out on their own during ejection. Too hot maybe?

[spleify]

What does the bolt face look like? Any noticeable damage or a foreign object causing those scares on them.

[Delfuego]

Looks hot to me! Those crescents are ejector swipes, and the primers blew out. I have had similar on hot loads. I am no expert, so maybe some more experienced guys will chime in...

Also different brass will have different powder capacity.

[Colorado Osprey]

According to Hodgdon.com that is not only a HOT load, but above their load data by a full grain of powder; so VERY hot!
Max load- 24grains of H322 w/ 50 grain bullets is 3301ft/sec at 49,300CUP (older books maxed out at 23 grains)

I see a lot of data where people are getting good accuracy nodes in the 22-23grains of powder area

[SA Friday]

Dangerously hot. back the load way off and rework it.

[Buckaroobonsai]

Here's the bolt face and the load data I used from the Hornady 9th Ed handbook where the max load for H322 was 25.2 grains and I went with 25.0 to be safe. Then of course, I didn't measure every load after the first (3) were 25.0 or less.

[SA Friday]

Here's the bolt face and the load data I used from the Hornady 9th Ed handbook where the max load for H322 was 25.2 grains and I went with 25.0 to be safe. Then of course, I didn't measure every load after the first (3) were 25.0 or less.

[facepalm]shortcuts…

[spleify]

Yeah that is a hot load. Maybe try starting with low end charges first and work up from there.

[Buckaroobonsai]

Thanks guys. I'm guessing the brass is probably not safe anymore either?

[Zombie Steve]

Hornady didn't use mixed brass and Tula primers... and you certainly didn't use the same gun they did. Powder charge weight is only one part of the equation. That's why you start low and work your way up slowly looking for pressure signs. You jumped in and went 2/10ths of a grain less than what they were calling a maximum load (probably for a bolt gun). Had you done your due diligence working up a load, you would have noticed pressure signs long before your headstamp started taking on the characteristics of your bolt face. [facepalm]

It helps to look at multiple sources of data. Many things in our modern world are designed to be "plug and play". Reloading isn't one of those things.

[Buckaroobonsai]

Even loading it up a bit at a time could still get you to the point of over pressure if you were trying to determine the maximum safe load. I knew the gun itself could handle higher pressure 5.56, and I usually load around the middle .223 specs, but wanted to give the hotter .223 loads a try. I guess that's just part of the learning process, and it seems like I'm not the only one either!
[Beer]

[Zombie Steve]

Even loading it up a bit at a time could still get you to the point of over pressure if you were trying to determine the maximum safe load. I knew the gun itself could handle higher pressure 5.56, and I usually load around the middle .223 specs, but wanted to give the hotter .223 loads a try. I guess that's just part of the learning process, and it seems like I'm not the only one either!
[Beer]


While that's true, there's a big difference between "this is about max... my primers are starting to flatten a little and they aren't going any faster over the chrono" and the first picture you posted... gas escaping around the primer, pierced primer, blown out primer and ejector marks (any one of which should have told you to stop what you're doing).

I don't mean to be harsh, but in the last week we've had a Glock Kb! and at least two guys that just decided on a powder charge and went to town. One seemed to luck out, and you got off easy just blowing out some primer pockets.

A reloading manual is a guideline. It's what that particular manufacturer found to be safe with those specific components in their gun shot in their conditions. Temperature, brass, bullet shape, primer, OAL, chamber dimensions, and powder charge all come in to play. That's why every manual has different data. The next time you hear "reloading manuals are made by lawyers" think back to this event.

Load development takes time and will use up precious components. It's a fact. If you want to do things safely and find the little sweet spots, you'll have to do it.

[BuffCyclist]

Just to throw my 2 cents in here, I am VERY OCD when it comes to reloading.

A fellow member sent me some 308 brass to start loading so after I bought my new rifle (and was immediately poor), I could load and go shoot a bit. He told me to load closer to max to pay attention to the brass and see what brass is good, what's soft, brittle, etc.

Checked IMR load data website, starting load was 41.0-45.4c. Okay, I'll start at 41-42 and increment by 1gr to look at brass characteristics. Checked my Lyman manual, same bullet/powder combo said 38-41.5. I immediately thought to myself, crap now what.

Okay, maybe I'll start at 40 and work my way up to 44-45. Then I realized, what if Lyman wasn't just playing it safe but that IMR was wrong. I started getting confused and looked for a third source. The insert with my Lee dies said 41.5-45.4c. Alright, lets start loading.

Contacted the forum member to see what they thought, their manual said max of 41.5. So had I just started off the bat without consulting other manuals, I could have been in serious trouble.

Anyways, point of my story is that I almost loaded up some unsafe rounds because I used only one manual even though I preach use 2 sources. However, had I used the Lee insert manual and the IMR website, I could really be in trouble and thats why you should always start low and work up. If I did that with the Lee/IMR data, I would have noticed overpressure signs on my lowest load, stopped and then started wondering what was up.

Never get complacent. Never start a load above max without working it up in that gun, with those components.

And looking at your brass, you have 2 cases that are true 5.56 cases, which have LESS powder capacity than standard 223 cases, so you can usually get away with 1-2gr LESS powder and still have overpressure signs, so if you didn't know that, remember it especially if you play at near max specs.

[Irving]

How do you guys feel about the single caliber reloading manuals?

[spqrzilla]

I like the single caliber reloading manuals for calibers I'm going to reload for a lot and experiment around with different bullets. Because its easy to compare different manufacturers data, and various bullet weights and types. But sometimes the single caliber manuals put out obsolete data.

As comment about the data in Lee inserts in die sets. My experience is that the Lee data is just copied from other sources, seldom if ever actually tested in their own ballistics work. And its often obsolete. I'd throw that away.

[brutal]

One of many sources I use. IMHO, they tend to be on the low side but will probably keep you out of trouble.

I look at the min, mean, max for 6-8-10 sources including at least 4 loadbook references and decide upon a starting load. Always below the mean and account for magnum primers if used.

Onebook Loadbooks, Lyman, powder mfr data, bullet mfr data, research on line sources, ask other reloaders.

Apparently I've gone rogue, reckless, and went to town.

FWIW, Some factory PPU .308 ammo I have has VERY minor, nearly imperceptible, ejector marks from my Sig 716. I have not put a chrono to them.

[Buckaroobonsai]

I carefully inspect every piece of brass after cleaning and de-capping. Then I do a full resize, measure, trim to spec if needed, clean and uniform all flash holes. I always follow published load data and go lower than the max. I only use .223 data with mixed .223 and 5.56 brass in a 5.56 rated rifle. Understanding the other variables is a good thing to know now, and I do appreciate the info. That being said, I don't consider myself to be lucky in this case, and am hardly the type to blow up a gun by making up my own load data. True, I'm no expert, but I've shot hundreds, if not thousands of my own reloads by now, and the only thing I've blown up is fuzzies!

[Thanks]

[Zombie Steve]

Well, again, I really do apologize if I'm coming across a little abrasive. I'm not trying to pick on anybody or be the load police or anything. The question was posed if they were too hot, SA Friday answered it pretty succinctly and I tried to help explain why. There's a lot of guys trying to read up in this forum on how it all works. Any manual will explain what gas leakage, blown / pierced primers or ejector marks on the headstamp means, and none of them would suggest you should start at the top end of the data.

55,000 psi is some powerful stuff, Gentlemen. Start low, work your way up incrementally looking for pressure signs.

[Hoser]

Loading for gas guns is much different than bolt guns. And you used mixed brass. That alone can cause big swings in pressure.

That brass is trashed.

Always check more than one manual if possible.

If you get much more pressure, parts will start coming off.

I would come off a full grain (at the minimum) and start there.

[Lurch]

Just a question about running near the max charge. When using a new container of powder from a different lot would you work back up the load? In other words are powders really consistent from lot to lot?

[Tim K]

I don't consider myself to be lucky in this case, and am hardly the type to blow up a gun by making up my own load data.

[Thanks]

You came pretty close. Had you jammed a bullet into the lands by seating too long or by insufficient neck tension allowing one to slip forward, you just might have. You might consider yourself to be a careful and conservative loader, but the data indicates otherwise.

Please take Steve's advice and start at the low end and work your way up until you just start to see pressure signs.

[Zombie Steve]

Just a question about running near the max charge. When using a new container of powder from a different lot would you work back up the load? In other words are powders really consistent from lot to lot?

Most of the time, it won't make a difference unless you're in benchrest competition or simply demand that much from your loads. If you're favorite load is right there at max, then it would be prudent to drop off a few thousandths and work up again. Some powders are worse about lot to lot consistency than others. Varget comes to mind.

[Zombie Steve]

You came pretty close. Had you jammed a bullet into the lands by seating too long or by insufficient neck tension allowing one to slip forward, you just might have. You might consider yourself to be a careful and conservative loader, but the data indicates otherwise.

Please take Steve's advice and start at the low end and work your way up until you just start to see pressure signs.


It's not often that I find the best load at a max charge anyway. The other benefit of starting low and trying the whole range is that you'll find the sweet spots / accuracy nodes. Your rifle will tell you what it likes.

[C Ward]

You don't consider yourself lucky ?

The picture shows every text book pressure sign for a gas gun , huge ejector marks , leaking primers , flat primers , pierced primers , missing primers , and the extractor trying to rip the rim off the case head .

Thats handloading101 stuff , pretty sure you oughta step back and reexamine your whole process because you got damn lucky .

[Rabid]

5.56 rated does not mean much because when you reload its all called 223 even if it is loaded to 5.56 pressures. The charge you used is above 5.56 pressure in your gun. I am sure none of the commercially loaded 5.56 ammo you have shot resulted in blown and pierced primers with extractor and ejector marks like that. This should tell you that you are over commercially loaded 5.56 pressures. Everyone here is just worried for another members safety so if we come off abrasive please realize we are not trying to be we just see a dangerous situation.


And looking at your brass, you have 2 cases that are true 5.56 cases, which have LESS powder capacity than standard 223 cases, so you can usually get away with 1-2gr LESS powder and still have overpressure signs, so if you didn't know that, remember it especially if you play at near max specs.
That is not 100% true, it really depends on year. Some of the older (1980's-1990's i think) 5.56 brass i have definitely has less capacity but the 2000ish and up dated LC 5.56 brass i have has more case capacity then lots 223rem brass i have.

[spqrzilla]

.223 Remington brass and 5.56mm brass has no fixed "mil spec brass is thicker" relationship so that old belief is useless.

To be honest, it was only reliable when milsurp brass meant .30-06 and you either had military arsenal production or US commercial ammo production to choose from. Nowadays, with ammo coming into this country from every continent but Antarctica, you can not predict.

[Great-Kazoo]

.223 Remington brass and 5.56mm brass has no fixed "mil spec brass is thicker" relationship so that old belief is useless.

.

I have LC that weighs 94.6~ grs and RG weighing in @ 104.7~ Weight's / thickness is all over the place on 223, same for 5.56

[Danimal]

I understand that you feel a little cheated with your load being within the specifications of your manual, and it sucks when everyone on here is so harsh and judgmental. That is probably because they have all made the same mistake or worse. It is one of those things that if it happened to me I would have ran home and tore apart every last one of those after the first shot. I did the exact same thing when I was starting out and like you I was lucky, but just on this forum the other day there was a guy that did almost the exact same load and blew up a Glock. Thank god I had a subcompact because that is the only thing that separated my experience from his. They were literally my first reloads, and I started 1 grain above the MINIMUN value. But the bullet was a plated concave base bullet that behaved very differently than any reloading manual could have specified.

The main point I am trying to make is, learn from it, take it seriously and it only takes one fuckup in a pile of a million to ruin your (or whoever pulls the trigger) life.

[SA Friday]

Relax guys. He gets it.

[Buckaroobonsai]

Friday is correct. I got it. The first time. I never said I didn't. Just took it back down to the middle velocity load as I stated I usually do. That turned out to be 23.9 grains at 3200 FPS. Same brass, same powder, same primers, same gun. Excellent results with no blown primers, no marked brass. All's well that ends well. No need to "reexamine" my whole process. No need to play the lottery. REALLY no need for anymore condescending "advice" on the subject. Thanks.

[beatdeadhorse]

[ChunkyMonkey]

Friday is correct. I got it. The first time. I never said I didn't. Just took it back down to the middle velocity load as I stated I usually do. That turned out to be 23.9 grains at 3200 FPS. Same brass, same powder, same primers, same gun. Excellent results with no blown primers, no marked brass. All's well that ends well. No need to "reexamine" my whole process. No need to play the lottery. REALLY no need for anymore condescending "advice" on the subject. Thanks.

[beatdeadhorse]

Good shooting :)

[Buckaroobonsai]

Thanks, Ken. It really is a sweet load. Took one today at over 400 yards with it, and everything under that was blown inside out. I think I found my new favorite varmint load.

My final recipe again for anyone interested:

Hornady Z-MAX .224 50 gr. Part No. 22262
B.C. 0.242
23.9 gr of H322 for 3200 FPS
C.O.L. 2.240"
Tula SRP
Mixed brass

[Alrigh]


Good shooting :)

[Delfuego]

I bet the P-Dogs were hoping you took longer to develop a new load...

[Hoser]

Nobody was being an asshole. We just didnt want to see you get hurt or have a gun come apart in your hands.

[Zombie Steve]

Thumbs up on slaying p-dogs.

[DSB OUTDOORS]

Nobody was being an asshole. We just didnt want to see you get hurt or have a gun come apart in your hands.


Thumbs up on slaying p-dogs.
^^^^ Both of these. No one wants to see any of our brothers hurt !! We all love to see good shooting. Public safety is # 1 and hope you don't step in #2 !!! I learn something every day. Much like a child. But just remember what you have learned. And that will help to protect our future!!

[Buckaroobonsai]

41379

[ChunkyMonkey]

41379

Whatcha got against the Papuan?

[Buckaroobonsai]

I appreciate the concern and am not calling anyone an asshole. I'm just saying there's a more courteous way to answer someone's question, without passing judgement:

Me: Anyone know what could cause these markings?
Reply: Over pressure.
Me: Thank you. I'll make the necessary adjustments.

Done.


Nobody was being an asshole. We just didnt want to see you get hurt or have a gun come apart in your hands.