View Full Version : SBR procedure overview?
Can one of you guys who has been through the process give us a quick overview of the steps required to build an SBR?
My trust paperwork should be done next week, so I don't necessarily need any explanation of that part of the process.
mtnrider
02-20-2014, 10:34
What kind of info are you looking for, actual build or filling out the paperwork? All of the above.
I'm sure everyone has their way of doing things but this is how I built my first one.
1. Decide what you want to build and acquire the lower or pistol.
2. Get paperwork filed either efile with a trust or paper individually.
2a. If snail mailed what about two months and call ATF to see if it is pending.
3. If you have a pistol go play with it for a while since the paperwork will take anywhere from 4-11 months.
4. If you have a lower you can build it up to the point of needing the upper. You can't legally possess a barrel until you have the paperwork back from the ATF.
5. Wait
6. Wait some more
7. You can get the lowered engraved at anytime some will wait till the paperwork is back others do it before hand. Good and bad points either way.
8. Paperwork arrives make copies so you have the original in the safe and copies with you just incase someone asks for it.
9. Go play with new toy.
10. File paperwork for another because you just can't have one NFA toy.
mtnrider
02-20-2014, 10:44
4. If you have a lower you can build it up to the point of needing the upper. You can't legally possess a barrel until you have the paperwork back from the ATF.
On this step I actually built the AR completely using a pistol buffer. That way I could test fire, play with it etc. until the stamp came in.
I don't need the lower before submitting paperwork? I figured I'd need the serial number.
mtnrider
02-20-2014, 10:49
I don't need the lower before submitting paperwork? I figured I'd need the serial number.
Yes you do. You need the serial number on the paperwork. As well as the overall length so you will need to know what barrel you want to go with.
I don't need the lower before submitting paperwork? I figured I'd need the serial number.
Read #1 again. :D
Yup, I missed that. Stupid flu.
Another way is to buy a factory SBR lower so you dont have to screw with engraving your trust name on it. Thats how I went many years ago.
It's nice having a CNC sitting out in the shop. Engraving is a non-issue for me.
Great-Kazoo
02-20-2014, 12:58
DO NOT PUT MULTI in section 4c , for Caliber
BuffCyclist
02-20-2014, 13:09
DO NOT PUT MULTI in section 4c , for Caliber
How come? And what do you put down then if the lower says Multi?
If you put down 5.56 or .223Rem, can you change out the upper later to have, say, a 300AAC Blackout upper?
How come? And what do you put down then if the lower says Multi?
If you put down 5.56 or .223Rem, can you change out the upper later to have, say, a 300AAC Blackout upper?
Changing calibers or barrel lengths is not a permanent change.
Just pick one and go with it.
I have a form 4 from long ago where I listed MULTI and it went through. Now days they kick them back.
BuffCyclist
02-20-2014, 13:17
Ah, gotcha, so it doesn't matter what you put unless you want it kicked back. Thanks! [Awesom]
Great-Kazoo
02-20-2014, 13:28
How come? And what do you put down then if the lower says Multi?
If you put down 5.56 or .223Rem, can you change out the upper later to have, say, a 300AAC Blackout upper?
Ah, gotcha, so it doesn't matter what you put unless you want it kicked back. Thanks! [Awesom]
yes and maybe. If the lower is anything other than a dedicated 9, 45, 22lr etc. I go with 5.56 . if you have a dedicated DDLES then you put 9mm.
You may temporarily alter the caliber provided you can restore it to the original configuration (meaning you can put a 22 conversion on your 5.56 SBR for a cheap range trip), but you should still keep the 5.56 upper.
To expand... you can temporarily change the length/caliber at will. So keep the other upper, and you are fine.
However, if you ever want to rebuild your primary upper in a different length or caliber, it is just mailing to the ATF to inform them that the change has happened. There is no approval, or waiting. Just send it in and make your change, so it isn't as big of a deal as some make it out to be.
Another way is to buy a factory SBR lower so you dont have to screw with engraving your trust name on it. Thats how I went many years ago.
How does this help?
Also, so if you are building a 300BLK and the lower states 'multi' you should still put down 5.56 on the form to make things easier? Even if you plan to run multiple uppers?
Can I use multiple short barreled uppers on the SBRd lower? It requires a paperwork change?
I don't know that I care, just trying to understand.
mtnrider
02-20-2014, 16:31
How does this help?
Also, so if you are building a 300BLK and the lower states 'multi' you should still put down 5.56 on the form to make things easier?
I that case you would put 300BLK on the form and engrave CAL 300blk on the lower. My lower was a factory "multi" and I engraved CAL 5.56 on it alomg with my trust name and city.
Circuits
02-20-2014, 16:33
Also, so if you are building a 300BLK and the lower states 'multi' you should still put down 5.56 on the form to make things easier? Even if you plan to run multiple uppers?
If you put multi on your Form 1, the BATFE will not approve your form.
If you put down more than one caliber on your Form 1, the BATFE will not approve your form.
So even if your lower says "MULTI", you put down the ONE caliber you first intend to build it in. The manufacturer can get away with marking receivers multi because they are produced as receivers only, so have no caliber until they are someday fitted with a barrel. An SBR must have a rifled barrel, so it must have a caliber, and the BATFE wants a description of the firearm as you will first build it.
RCCrawler
02-20-2014, 17:17
However, if you ever want to rebuild your primary upper in a different length or caliber, it is just mailing to the ATF to inform them that the change has happened. There is no approval, or waiting. Just send it in and make your change, so it isn't as big of a deal as some make it out to be.
Hmm, I may have to look into that. I have an SBR I built as an 8"er that I'm really kicking my self I didn't build a little shorter. It'd be simple to just take it to Bert and have him re cut and thread the barrel, but I thought I'd have to resubmit.
Great-Kazoo
02-20-2014, 18:14
Hmm, I may have to look into that. I have an SBR I built as an 8"er that I'm really kicking my self I didn't build a little shorter. It'd be simple to just take it to Bert and have him re cut and thread the barrel, but I thought I'd have to resubmit.
I put all my SBR's as 7" bbls AND 5.56 This gives you leeway ( BBL and OAL )if you decided to drop a 22 or 9mm upper on. YMMV
Great-Kazoo
02-20-2014, 18:14
If you put multi on your Form 1, the BATFE will not approve your form.
If you put down more than one caliber on your Form 1, the BATFE will not approve your form.
So even if your lower says "MULTI", you put down the ONE caliber you first intend to build it in. The manufacturer can get away with marking receivers multi because they are produced as receivers only, so have no caliber until they are someday fitted with a barrel. An SBR must have a rifled barrel, so it must have a caliber, and the BATFE wants a description of the firearm as you will first build it.
^^ THIS^^^
Can I use multiple short barreled uppers on the SBRd lower? It requires a paperwork change?
I don't know that I care, just trying to understand.
As I understand it - Anything you want temporary. For a permanent change to the Form1 lower, you submit the change.
Here's one for the guru's. If you take it out of state on an approved form 5320.20, must it be the permanent upper on the form1 or can it be a temporary or even multiple uppers?
Great-Kazoo
02-20-2014, 18:54
As I understand it - Anything you want temporary. For a permanent change to the Form1 lower, you submit the change.
Here's one for the guru's. If you take it out of state on an approved form 5320.20, must it be the permanent upper on the form1 or can it be a temporary or even multiple uppers?
I've taken all/multiple uppers with me, but kept the Form 1 upper on the lower.
RCCrawler
02-20-2014, 19:14
I put all my SBR's as 7" bbls AND 5.56 This gives you leeway ( BBL and OAL )if you decided to drop a 22 or 9mm upper on. YMMV
That wouldn't have worked in either of my examples.
On one of mine it's built on a 15-22, I cut it to 8 not thinking that it takes less than 5.5" to keep most ammo subsonic, so I'd now like to cut 2.5" off of it. My understanding is I can go longer with no problem, but shorter and I have to fill out paperwork even if I keep this current upper on hand and buy another one.
Another one of mine is built on a DDLES dedicated 9mm lower with a 3" barrel.
I that case you would put 300BLK on the form and engrave CAL 300blk on the lower. My lower was a factory "multi" and I engraved CAL 5.56 on it alomg with my trust name and city.
So on my form, I only put down 7.62 as the caliber. Will they kick the form back? Could be for 7.62x35 (300BLK) or 7.62x39
And do you have to engrave the caliber if it says multi?
Great-Kazoo
02-20-2014, 19:37
So on my form, I only put down 7.62 as the caliber. Will they kick the form back? Could be for 7.62x35 (300BLK) or 7.62x39
Why would they? You listed one caliber, not, Multi, 300 XXX .
If it is in pending status call them, have your serial # on hand, when they ask. Then see what they say. Only ATF will can you a definitive answer, depending how they feel, that day, maybe. Be sure you get name, date, time. This way IF there is an issue later on you have documentation to reply with.
SA Friday
02-20-2014, 20:40
Does anyone have any guidance, an actual ATF pamphlet or instruction, indicating that short of the SBR's original configuration the AFT gives two rat poops what upper is on the lower? The upper is just a part. The lower is the item being registered.
I have talked to the NFA ATF office about removing uppers from SBR's and turning them over to the owner while the Form 4 on the lower clears. I discussed the upper being used on a lower previously Form 1ed. They related flat out that the upper was just a part and the lower was relevant.
I will not even remotely shocked if it's erroneous. Equally, I will not be shocked if the last three strings of info are not supported by direct ATF guidance.
I'm not even sure the AFT even knows…..
mtnrider
02-20-2014, 21:04
So on my form, I only put down 7.62 as the caliber. Will they kick the form back? Could be for 7.62x35 (300BLK) or 7.62x39
And do you have to engrave the caliber if it says multi?
I would think 7.62 is just fine. Just like 5.56. I didn't put 5.56x45, I just put 5.56
I put all my SBR's as 7" bbls AND 5.56 This gives you leeway ( BBL and OAL )if you decided to drop a 22 or 9mm upper on. YMMVIts my understanding you have to be able to bring it to the original Form 1 filing. So what will happen in the off chance the ATF comes a knocking?
Does anyone have any guidance, an actual ATF pamphlet or instruction, indicating that short of the SBR's original configuration the AFT gives two rat poops what upper is on the lower? The upper is just a part. The lower is the item being registered. I have talked to the NFA ATF office about removing uppers from SBR's and turning them over to the owner while the Form 4 on the lower clears. I discussed the upper being used on a lower previously Form 1ed. They related flat out that the upper was just a part and the lower was relevant. I will not even remotely shocked if it's erroneous. Equally, I will not be shocked if the last three strings of info are not supported by direct ATF guidance. I'm not even sure the AFT even knows…..If they already have a SBR they are fine. If they have another AR then no. If they don't have an AR then yes.
Great-Kazoo
02-21-2014, 08:42
Its my understanding you have to be able to bring it to the original Form 1 filing. So what will happen in the off chance the ATF comes a knocking?
Not a thing. ALL our AR SBR's wear their NFA stamp uppers. The other caliber uppers sit in a designated SBR rifle case. They can ask at the range, or in a vehicle (with warrant) nothing to elicit future inspection.
Other caliber uppers are fun / range toys. The 5.56 / 223 ones are kept intact, as they are PD, HD, all around go to guns.
Circuits
02-21-2014, 13:44
My understanding is I can go longer with no problem, but shorter and I have to fill out paperwork even if I keep this current upper on hand and buy another one.
No. You can go shorter if you want.
RCCrawler
02-21-2014, 14:17
No. You can go shorter if you want.
Not that I don't believe you, but can anyone show where that is published?
If they don't care the actual length then why bother even asking? Just let us fill out a form saying SBR.
Great-Kazoo
02-21-2014, 14:36
Not that I don't believe you, but can anyone show where that is published?
If they don't care the actual length then why bother even asking? Just let us fill out a form saying SBR.
I put the shortest functioning 5.56 bbl length down 7" They need something to base your app off of. Just like Caliber. When you deal with the.gov everything is questionable.
Circuits
02-21-2014, 14:42
Not that I don't believe you, but can anyone show where that is published?
If they don't care the actual length then why bother even asking? Just let us fill out a form saying SBR.
There are no laws saying you CAN do things - just laws saying what you can't do.
The NFA defines an SBR as a rifle with a barrel less than 16" - and any length is good to go on an SBR.
You are required to put a length because you're the maker, and you're supposed to put down the initial build configuration. After that, there's no laws forbidding you from ever changing it. The back of the Form 1 does ask you to write the ATF and notify them of any permanent changes - but there is no statute requiring you to do that, either.
If you absolutely must have a written answer, write the ATF Firearms Technology branch and they'll send you a reply.
RCCrawler
02-21-2014, 15:12
Ok, here's the scoop, I called the ATF Branch in Denver and asked the question.
-If it is a temporary change and you can change it right back, nothing is needed.
-If it's a permanent change you need to send a letter to the ATF NFA branch office listing your make, model, serial number, new barrel length, and new overall length.
He did not know if you could make the changes then send the letter, or if you had to send the letter first then wait for approval to make the changes so he gave me a number at the NFA branch to call.
The lady at the NFA branch said that you must send the letter, then wait for a response letter back from them before making any permanent changes. She said currently the wait on letters such as that is 3-6 months.
Great-Kazoo
02-21-2014, 17:35
Ok, here's the scoop, I called the ATF Branch in Denver and asked the question.
-If it is a temporary change and you can change it right back, nothing is needed.
-If it's a permanent change you need to send a letter to the ATF NFA branch office listing your make, model, serial number, new barrel length, and new overall length.
He did not know if you could make the changes then send the letter, or if you had to send the letter first then wait for approval to make the changes so he gave me a number at the NFA branch to call.
The lady at the NFA branch said that you must send the letter, then wait for a response letter back from them before making any permanent changes. She said currently the wait on letters such as that is 3-6 months.
The Denver branch is LE, not technical side of things. While they can render a "guess" as you found out they are not savvy on NFA items. Unless you're in a sting.
If it's not from the tech branch back east, in writing, don't base what you do, on that answer.
SA Friday
02-21-2014, 22:10
There are no laws saying you CAN do things - just laws saying what you can't do.
The NFA defines an SBR as a rifle with a barrel less than 16" - and any length is good to go on an SBR.
You are required to put a length because you're the maker, and you're supposed to put down the initial build configuration. After that, there's no laws forbidding you from ever changing it. The back of the Form 1 does ask you to write the ATF and notify them of any permanent changes - but there is no statute requiring you to do that, either.
If you absolutely must have a written answer, write the ATF Firearms Technology branch and they'll send you a reply.
THANK YOU! This was what I was trying to relay in my previous post. After the initial build, the ATF really doesn't care. Again, my previous conversations with the ATF NFA office concerning uppers all have finished the same, the lower is the SBR and the upper IS A PART...
(BTW, as a retired Fed I can tell you that if there isn't a statute to enforce then it's not against the law. They can want all they would like and they can put it all over forms in blood red print that sticks to your fingers if they want. Doesn't mean squat.)
Circuits, you and I need to go out for coffee one of these days and swap stories.
RCCrawler
02-21-2014, 23:11
The Denver branch is LE, not technical side of things. While they can render a "guess" as you found out they are not savvy on NFA items. Unless you're in a sting.
If it's not from the tech branch back east, in writing, don't base what you do, on that answer.
Which is why I called the tech branch and they confirmed what the Denver branch told me.
If you put down more than one caliber on your Form 1, the BATFE will not approve your form.
This must be a new thing as mine lists .223/9mm and went through just fine...
OK, so bumping up an old thread, I just want to make sure I'm doing this correctly. I am making my C39 pistol into an SBR and have a trust setup. I fill out the form 1 with all the info about my trust and the gun, do I need to have it engraved with my trust name and city prior to sending the form or can that be done while I am waiting for approval? Since I have a trust and would send a copy of it, will I need my pic and prints to go along with the form 1?
Personally, I waited until my eform 1 was approved and in hand before I had mine engraved. I would hate to have it engraved prior and then get some fluke issue from the ATF about my paperwork and trust name. If you are submitting your form 1 as a trust, eform I presume, then you do not need pictures or finger prints. Complete the eform 1 and upload a copy of your trust, that is it. Oh, and pay your $200 and wait a month too.
Day 36 today for me. HURRY UP!
mtnrider
02-13-2015, 15:19
No finger prints required with the trust route. I always wait to engrave mine as well. People do it both ways though. I prefer to wait just in case something went wrong. Not that it would matter either way but would rather not have a non-NFA weapon with my trust engraved on it.
Great-Kazoo
02-13-2015, 15:49
OK, so bumping up an old thread, I just want to make sure I'm doing this correctly. I am making my C39 pistol into an SBR and have a trust setup. I fill out the form 1 with all the info about my trust and the gun, do I need to have it engraved with my trust name and city prior to sending the form or can that be done while I am waiting for approval? Since I have a trust and would send a copy of it, will I need my pic and prints to go along with the form 1?
MAKE SURE your Trust is 3MB or less. I'll echo the others and say wait to engrave. Some say do it first. Don't forget your schedule of assets, too. BUT do not list the C39.
MAKE SURE your Trust is 3MB or less. I'll echo the others and say wait to engrave. Some say do it first. Don't forget your schedule of assets, too. BUT do not list the C39.
Why don't you list the C39? Wouldn't the trust have to own it before it could make it into a SBR?
mtnrider
02-13-2015, 16:47
Trust does not have to own it prior. Only after the SBR is made. I only list the item in schedule "A" After approval.
Great-Kazoo
02-13-2015, 16:59
Trust does not have to own it prior. Only after the SBR is made. I only list the item in schedule "A" After approval.
Thank you. It's an oft debated topic, some do some don't. IF it's not approved, it's Not owned by the trust
MAKE SURE your Trust is 3MB or less. I'll echo the others and say wait to engrave. Some say do it first. Don't forget your schedule of assets, too. BUT do not list the C39.
I've seen conflicting info on the 3MB limit. I recall one e-newsletter stating the limit for the document marked as the trust doc was 30MB. Maybe they rescinded it, I dunno. YMMV of course.
ATF also says you DO NOT need the certificate of compliance with a trust. My lsat Form1 and Form4 were SANS said cert.
re: engraving. If you need to ship it/leave it, you'll want to do that before your stamp comes back. Most of the engravers we're using don't have SOT to possess your SBR without your presence. Not an issue either way if you do while-you-wait with Troy @ Colorado Gun Writes or use Tim.
Great-Kazoo
02-13-2015, 18:15
I've seen conflicting info on the 3MB limit. I recall one e-newsletter stating the limit for the document marked as the trust doc was 30MB. Maybe they rescinded it, I dunno. YMMV of course.
ATF also says you DO NOT need the certificate of compliance with a trust. My lsat Form1 and Form4 were SANS said cert.
re: engraving. If you need to ship it/leave it, you'll want to do that before your stamp comes back. Most of the engravers we're using don't have SOT to possess your SBR without your presence. Not an issue either way if you do while-you-wait with Troy @ Colorado Gun Writes or use Tim.
It's 3MB. Over that you either reduce size OR submit it in 2-3 attachments.
It's 3MB. Over that you either reduce size OR submit it in 2-3 attachments.
This was my other question as I currently have my 6 page trust and my schedule A as two separate pdf files, if they accepted multiple attachments.
This was my other question as I currently have my 6 page trust and my schedule A as two separate pdf files, if they accepted multiple attachments.
I've always filed them separate. The trust doesn't change, the schedule A does. IMHO, less chance the alphabet boys and girls will muck something up. Screen shot of one of my filings. However, as I stated earlier, the COC 5330.20 is no longer required if filing as a trust.
Another point I will make is that MY trust attorney advised ME to list the lowers I was submitting on Form1, on my schedule A prior to submission, to prove they are owned by the trust. " then definitely include them on the Schedule A to establish that the Trust owned them PRIOR to the SBR build." Consult YOUR attorney if you have questions.
https://www.ar-15.co/attachment.php?attachmentid=56293&d=1423882671
It might not hurt to review the last e-form newsletter.
It's 3MB. Over that you either reduce size OR submit it in 2-3 attachments.
Your right, max 3MB for trust doc. It is 30MB TOTAL on a filing.
Great-Kazoo
02-13-2015, 23:06
Your right, max 3MB for trust doc. It is 30MB TOTAL on a filing.
Just coming here to clarify. We're both correct.
Attachment restrictions:
1. 10 attachments per line item
2. Each attachment can be no larger than 3MB
3. Total file size per submission can be no larger than 30MB
stupid question, on the Form 1 before even entering the length and caliber items it requests a manufacturer. This should be my trust name and not the lower manufacturer? Doing that it throws and error. Any help would be appreciated
That is the manufacturer of the lower. Bushmaster, BCM, Anderson, etc.
SouthPaw
11-19-2015, 14:07
stupid question, on the Form 1 before even entering the length and caliber items it requests a manufacturer. This should be my trust name and not the lower manufacturer? Doing that it throws and error. Any help would be appreciated
The only stupid questions are the ones that are not asked.
https://www.guntrustlawyer.com/form1
Another question , if you are doing an individual and not a trust what do you have engraved or do you have to at all?
Another question , if you are doing an individual and not a trust what do you have engraved or do you have to at all?
The individuals name and city and state must be engraved on the frame, receiver, or barrel. Or "recognized abbreviation".
The National Firearms Act handbook from the ATF website is very good reference book to have. It describes the procedure in detail and mostly plain language on how to do Form 1s and Form 4s as well as a bunch of other NFA stuff. It also has copies of the regulations and laws. link here.
http://www.atf.gov/content/firearms/firearms-industry/guides/publications-firearms-national-firearms-act-handbook (http://www.atf.gov/content/firearms/firearms-industry/guides/publications-firearms-national-firearms-act-handbook)
The maker must engrave the name city and state. The maker is either an individual or a legal entity such as a trust.
Great-Kazoo
11-23-2015, 01:45
The individuals name and city and state must be engraved on the frame, receiver, or barrel. Or "recognized abbreviation".
The National Firearms Act handbook from the ATF website is very good reference book to have. It describes the procedure in detail and mostly plain language on how to do Form 1s and Form 4s as well as a bunch of other NFA stuff. It also has copies of the regulations and laws. link here.
http://www.atf.gov/content/firearms/firearms-industry/guides/publications-firearms-national-firearms-act-handbook (http://www.atf.gov/content/firearms/firearms-industry/guides/publications-firearms-national-firearms-act-handbook)
The maker must engrave the name city and state. The maker is either an individual or a legal entity such as a trust.
It's the same info as a trust, only your name John Doe instead of Doe Trust. The booklet SAnd linked is a must have as well as referencing the ATF web site plus one or 2 other NFA (Not the ATF) related sites, like this one. While not the final word like the ATF site. It never hurts to browse.
https://www.guntrustlawyer.com/
lostcolorado
11-23-2015, 16:49
If you've never used the ATF eFile system there are websites that walk you through the process step by step with screen shots.
http://www.stevejenkins.com/blog/2015/06/how-to-e-file-an-atf-form-1/
If you search YouTube you will find a number of videos on this process. The following one was produced by SilencerShop
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRbsltM3jyU
Can't find a lot of info on e-filing form 1 as an undividual. I think I would rather print It out and send it in with the check and pics and prints and signature like my form 4. Where do I print it out ?
Can't find a lot of info on e-filing form 1 as an undividual. I think I would rather print It out and send it in with the check and pics and prints and signature like my form 4. Where do I print it out ?
You can't e-file as an individual. I don't know how or if you can print it out from the e- file thing. You can save it as a draft but when I print a draft out it is watermarked as a Draft.
Here is a link to the ATF web page with the latest forms on it. The Form 1 is pdf of a blank form that can't be filled in though. You have to print it then fill it out by hand.
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/firearms-forms
Great-Kazoo
11-23-2015, 23:22
You can't e-file as an individual. I don't know how or if you can print it out from the e- file thing. You can save it as a draft but when I print a draft out it is watermarked as a Draft.
Here is a link to the ATF web page with the latest forms on it. The Form 1 is pdf of a blank form that can't be filled in though. You have to print it then fill it out by hand.
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/firearms-forms
For future reference. If you log in after receiving the e-mail notification your F1 has been Submitted. Click on your current e-file, then print. It will now say SUBMITTED across the 1st page.
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