How much carry ammo is enough?

[ChadAmberg]

Reading through this post, and I can't say I agree at all, and looking to figure out what others think.

http://www.ammoland.com/2014/02/ammo-how-much-is-enough-when-carrying-for-self-defense/


No survivor of a gunfight has ever said, “I wish I hadn’t carried those extra magazines.”
Should one really bother carrying spare ammunition? The simple – and only – answer is emphatically “Yes!” I have heard and read more people than I care to remember state that they only carry a small compact semi-auto or revolver, no spare ammunition, and laughingly say “if I can’t get it done in six rounds, something’s wrong” or “I deserve what I get” or something equally absurd.


They get into the one cop who now carries 145 rounds of ammo with him at all times. All because he shot a perp multiple times and he didn't die. Of course, I have a problem with that story for many reason. One: Concealed carry holders aren't cops. Two: The cop was complaining that the perp didn't die, so apparently he's an executioner, not a police officer. Maybe that's not what happened to the cop, but that is what I get from the story.

Another part of the story was where a woman shot her attacker 5 times before he stopped. Again, reading the story, she probably could have shot him 3 times and then asked if he would surrender, and she'd still have two more rounds. I understand that her adrenaline dump kept her pulling the trigger until empty. Again, the story basically said the guy didn't die, but that's irrelevant, you shoot to stop the threat.

Anyway, there's an unattributed "Gun magazines and police departments are full of tales where the bad guy was shot multiple times and was still able to seriously injure or kill the good guy."

I basically agree with one guys comment:
"I have never seen a actual instance where an armed citizen was unable to stop a threat due to running out of ammo. Police need more ammo because they go on offense against criminals, but armed citizens usually stop a threat just by being armed and do not get into sustained gunfights. Even in the Paul Slater Incident stated above the women stopped the threat. Even multiple attackers have shown in actual instances in the past that they all run in panic when one shot is fired towards them. So please, show actual instances where an armed citizen needed more than 5 shots to stop a threat. Police stories don’t count."

Most of the rest of the comments are more dick measuring than anything actually useful. Oooh I carry one more round than you do, I'm therefore more tacticool-mall-ninja than you.

There's reasonable and there's ridiculous. I'd say that carrying one extra mag is probably a good idea, although that's more for malfunctions than any chance of required reload. A single speedloader for a revolver makes sense, but I'd almost think that a NY reload would be better. This story reads like you're going up against mongol hordes of dedicated ninja warriors, not what actually has happened in real life.

So here's my question: Has anyone heard of a documented case where a reload was required in a non-police self defense incident? Am I off base?

[Rucker61]

I wouldn't feel comfortable without a small trailer load of ammo.

[Mick-Boy]

A little common sense, risk assessment, and honest introspection should be applied.

What's your background/experience? How well do you shoot? What kind of environment are you going to be in?

It could be pretty easy to "what if" yourself into ridiculous load outs. Why not carry your rifle and throw on some armor and a helmet? I mean, if there's trouble you want to be prepared right? If you're going out at night you should probably grab some NODs too right? It can get silly fast.

I usually carry a second magazine. I know several guys who don't.

Think it through and decide what you're willing to carry and what risk you're willing to accept. That balance is where you should be.

[TheBelly]

This may be a bit over-reaching the intent of this question, but here goes:

When time and occassion permits, I will reload.

The other part is that you never know if there will be a malfunction within the weapon system itself, which would then require using a different ammo source.

[SouthPaw]

I recently decided to add an extra mag to my EDC layout. It has a lot of pros and no cons.

[hghclsswhitetrsh]

Depends on the caliber. 9mm at least 200, 45 - 15, 10mm - 1.

Sorry I had to before someone else did.

[kawiracer14]

I don't carry any extra mags when I conceal carry.

[kidicarus13]

I wouldn't feel comfortable without a small trailer load of ammo.

Like an OD Green Supply trailer?

[Great-Kazoo]

Like an OD Green Supply trailer?

you haven't seen his CL ad, have you.




You going to the movies with your SO, friends, or driving through a known crime area ? The shit can drop at your church parking lot, or 15 items or less in safeway. What's your plan if it does, you in fight or flight? Do you have a choice ? Myself it depends on the area, occassion etc. It's usually a revolver, a 19 or 26. Then again almost everywhere i go, another person is CCW'ing too.

[rbeau30]

This may be a bit over-reaching the intent of this question, but here goes:

When time and occassion permits, I will reload.

The other part is that you never know if there will be a malfunction within the weapon system itself, which would then require using a different ammo source.

You never know when you have to go through S-P-O-R-T-S drill. Ohh wait that is when I carry the AR pistol.

You never know when you have a malfunction to the point where you have to: replace mag, charge, continue stopping threat. However at the point where I have to draw down is going to be the point at which I cannot flee or do anything other than stop the imminent threat. So possibly I may not have the ability to clear the malfunction.

Or carry a revolver, pull trigger/go bang.

[cstone]

If you practice tactical reloads and reloads with retention, it only makes sense to carry an extra magazine. If you don't practice reloads, carrying extra magazines would just be a luxury.

[lex137]

I carry an extra mag just in case, but I use to not. Sometimes I forget to grab it and I'm ok cause I'm comfortable with only having 7 shots cause I hoping to be gone before I ever have to use them. Pulling will be my last resort always, I'm ok with running away and fighting another day.

[NFATrustGuy]

I don't carry an extra mag when I'm carrying concealed. I'll frequently carry a couple extra if I'm carrying in the open on a belt, but the only time I really do this is when I'm up in the mountains hiking around our property.

[MarkCO]

I know a LEO who carries more ammo than most people shoot in a year, and another who carries 17 rounds total, both are a bit on the edge for their risk level IMHO. I kind of like to have 10 rounds minimum in close proximity. That can mean several things, and does depending on the day, what I will be doing and where I will be going.

Like a friend of mine used to say, if you are hanging out at the ATM on 16th street at 3am, better bring the G20, three mags and a buddy in battle rattle.

[Irving]

I carry a lot of things now, that I never thought I had room to carry a few years ago. I always carry an extra mag when concealed carrying. I only carry more when at matches, and less when running.

[cstone]

As a uniformed police officer carrying a revolver, I carried six in the cylinder and two speedloaders for a total of 18 rounds after two reloads. After transitioning to semi-auto pistols, I had 12+1 in the gun and two 12 round magazines for a total of 37 rounds after two reloads. Depending on what I carry now, I have 31 rounds after one reload, 25 rounds after one reload, 21 rounds after one reload, or 19 rounds after one reload. Any way I look at it, I now have more rounds available with fewer reloads than I did as a young officer in uniform on the streets of a violent American city. I have not had the misfortune of running out of ammunition [Flower]

[USMC_5-Echo]

Like an OD Green Supply trailer?

That's what I like to tow around [ROFL2]

[Great-Kazoo]

That's what I like to tow around [ROFL2]

remove the business name and paint it first.

[USMC_5-Echo]

Very true, don't want to advertise, much less for someone else.

[Mick-Boy]

Woke up this morning to see that Jeff Gonzales (of Trident Concepts) posted about this same topic yesterday.


https://www.tridentconcepts.com/one-of-one-is-none/
There is a old saying in my community, “one of one is none.” The context centered around equipment and specifically equipment critical to performing our mission. So, things like weapons, ammunition, radios etc.

You can take that philosophy to the extreme in no time flat; when mountaineering I once took enough food and fuel to do the expedition twice…literally twice. It’s always fun and games until you have to carry the equipment over long periods and arduous conditions. Then it’s not so fun.

In the daily carrying of a concealed firearm is it necessary to carry a spare magazine. Some will come out and say absolutely and always, my response is it really depends. It really depends on a lot of things, but the two most important would be lumped into perceived threat and capacity.

I find that a big mistake is folks don’t take a second to evaluate their environment. Instead, they go with a blanket type statement like “I can never predict when a gunfight is going to occur.” That is partially true, while using an absolute like “never” will give credence to that statement if you remove it from the statement now it is a bit more manageable. By the same token we all have to live our lives, I for one enjoy life and all it’s ups and downs. If I truly could never predict a gunfight, then I probably establish a FOB and run random patrols for supplies.

Since that is not the case, you have to evaluate the perceived risk with the activity. Does every situation call for a spare magazine…maybe. If you follow this train of thought then does every situation call for soft armor, helmets and other protective measures. I mean if you are going to go the extreme then go all in.

We use a threat matrix that provides guidance based off the available information. Can you be the subject of random violence, of course you can, but at some point you have to ask when enough is enough. If you subscribe to carrying a spare magazine every time you carry a pistol then good on you. But, I’m a bit skeptical…I’m sure there are times you don’t. So, how do you go about determining the choice to carry or not carry a spare magazine. That is my concern, what was your decision making process.

Take the time to create your own threat matrix and load out, adjust it according to your skill and equipment. Then make it a habit of reviewing the matrix as part of your jock up drill. I suggest you consider the capacity of the pistol you carry daily, does it have sufficient ammunition for the first scenario? I encourage at a minimum 10 rounds, in my head that gives me a decent load out to deal with two lethal threats. But here is something a lot of folks don’t think about and that is attack site number two. You may have survived the first attack, but will you be able to fend off a subsequent attack? That is where a spare magazine really comes into the picture. Then there is your marksmanship skills to consider, I hate to say it, but lack of good marksmanship skills is not reason alone to carry a spare, but it doesn’t hurt.

The bottom line is you need to have something other than blind obedience as to why you carry or don’t carry a spare magazine. Better to need it and not have it, than not have it and need it sounds great until you put that theory to the test on a daily basis.

[SuperiorDG]

42

[blacklabel]

35 for me. 17+1 and a 17 round reload. The reload isn't about the additional ammunition as much as it is about malfunction clearing.

[Mick-Boy]

42

Well that only makes sense.

[<MADDOG>]

My personal opinion based on basic studies is this: my CCW is there to neutralize a basic threat and/or get myself and loved ones out of danger. Bottom line: self defense, I am not the hero of the day.

Should I need more than my lone mag (12 +1), my belief is I have put myself into an exceptionally bad situation by willful ignorance/stupidity, or I am faced with a an active shooter scenario. I think I have a better chance of winning Powerball than the later, and I play maybe once a month...

Again, my opinion.

[Irving]

My personal opinion based on basic studies is this: my CCW is there to neutralize a basic threat and/or get myself and loved ones out of danger. Bottom line: self defense, I am not the hero of the day.

Should I need more than my lone mag (12 +1), my belief is I have put myself into an exceptionally bad situation by willful ignorance/stupidity, or I am faced with a an active shooter scenario. I think I have a better chance of winning Powerball than the later, and I play maybe once a month...

Again, my opinion.

Just last night I was thinking about this while out running. I was asking myself what I would do if a drive-by on a hoise occured while I was running by. Would I engage? If I did, I better have a place to run and hide because I've only got 10 rounds and have already been running (out of breath).

[Ronin13]

I carry 31 with me at all times- 15+1 in the gun, extra mag on support side. Then in the car I have one more 15-round mag (because I'm usually never more than .25mi from my car at all times).

You going to the movies with your SO, friends, or driving through a known crime area ? The shit can drop at your church parking lot, or 15 items or less in safeway. What's your plan if it does, you in fight or flight? Do you have a choice ? Myself it depends on the area, occassion etc.
This is a great point. You can never anticipate the situation you may be faced with (God forbid anyone here ever has to be in such a situation), and you have to react how you feel best in the situation. I can't say what would happen if... I can only say I hope that I'm prepared and trained if I ever need to. So it's impossible to tell how much carry ammo on your person is "enough." Can you get out of there without having to resort to drawing? Can you get away after hostiles are aware you are armed? How are they going to react to you being armed? Too many questions, too unpredictable. I'm comfortable with what I carry, I avoid confrontation, and hope every day that I don't need to use my gun.

[dan512]

I carry a spare mag for a few reasons. As has been stated, malfunctions happen.
Secondly, I think of something Daryl Bolke from HiTS training said that Jeff Gonzales echoed in the article Mick posted. He was talking about being a cop in a less than friendly neighborhood. He mentioned that if you need to use your weapon, you may use it and survive the encounter. However, what about the next encounter? In other words, what happens when the first dudes friends figure out you just shot their buddy? How many enemies have you just made? What if they are all armed?
God willing I will never have to draw my gun. But if I do I want to make sure I have enough rounds to get to safety.
There is very little cost in carying an extra mag. It doesn't take up much space, and it isn't heavy. Low cost to benefit ratio.

[<MADDOG>]

I think Ronin hit it on the head; "So it's impossible to tell how much carry ammo on your person is "enough".

If one wishes to carry enough ammo to to do an airfield take-down against armored aliens, and comfortable carrying such; do it. To each to his/her own. But where does the hypothetical argument end, and where does reality begin?

I must also ask: why carry the extra mag for malfunctions? I myself think one should vet the weapon, and the ammo, you are carrying for this scenario with reliability being one's first priority, and your ability to clear a bad round being second. I myself, find clearing a malfunction quicker than reloading. I may have been dropped on my head too may times though ...

[TheBelly]

I must also ask: why carry the extra mag for malfunctions? I myself think one should vet the weapon, and the ammo, you are carrying for this scenario with reliability being one's first priority, and your ability to clear a bad round being second. I myself, find clearing a malfunction quicker than reloading. I may have been dropped on my head too may times though ...

It's hard to replicate kind of stress that a gunfight will impart. With that stress, i might not get a perfect grasp of the gun, causing a user-created malfunction. It might be that ONE load that got by with too little powder, thereby causing a short-stroke situation in the gun.. A butterfly in Thailand might have flapped its wings wrong. Whatever the case may be, when the gun stops working, I need to problem solve my way out of it.

[<MADDOG>]

It's hard to replicate kind of stress that a gunfight will impart. With that stress, i might not get a perfect grasp of the gun, causing a user-created malfunction. It might be that ONE load that got by with too little powder, thereby causing a short-stroke situation in the gun.. A butterfly in Thailand might have flapped its wings wrong. Whatever the case may be, when the gun stops working, I need to problem solve my way out of it.

Thanks Belly! But allow me to retort:

In scenario #1; if I pull the trigger with my pecker [LOL], it better go off (why I state reliability). In your scenario, one would be sure to have the same malfunction again regardless if one had one or twenty mags. Again, a matter of vetting one's weapon IMO, and possibly training.

#2, hence why I state you need to be able to clear. Again, I don't see a reload being quicker.

[82ndShooter]

I always have at least two extra mags on my person. But then again, my carry selections have 7 or 8 round mags.

[TheBelly]

Thanks Belly! But allow me to retort:

In scenario #1; if I pull the trigger with my pecker [LOL], it better go off (why I state reliability). In your scenario, one would be sure to have the same malfunction again regardless if one had one or twenty mags. Again, a matter of vetting one's weapon IMO, and possibly training.

#2, hence why I state you need to be able to clear. Again, I don't see a reload being quicker.


Its just the way that I've been taught:

if the gun malfunctions, do something. If its ammo related, I'm changing ammo sources.

if I have to fire one round or thirteen, I'm reloading when I get the chance.

I can do neither unless I have another mag.


congrats on using your pecker in a gunfight, though! LoL

[cofi]

24 total rounds

11 in my glock 30
13 in spare glock 21 mag

I recently went to Denver and threw an additional sw bodyguard in my back pocket

[Gunner]

26 total rounds

10 in my glock 30
13 in spare glock 21 mag

I recently went to Denver and threw an additional sw bodyguard in my back pocket

I count 23 rounds

10+13=23


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[cofi]

I count 23 rounds

10+13=23


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Man one of those days

[Gunner]

Man one of those days

Haha we all have them


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[ChadAmberg]

Hey, thanks for the responses folks. I posted it a couple days before anyone responded, I figured it was a hot potato or something no one wanted to touch, so this is good.

A couple folks know that I'm writing a book on concealed carry for novices, and I wanted some input on this topic to include in a chapter. Overall it does seem like everyone follows the same basic idea here:
Cops need more which is fine, normal concealed holders not so much. Everyone seems to think that the article may be a little extreme.
Having 10 rounds on you seems to be a good number if you're not working in the ghetto.
Revolvers should have a speedloader to get you above your standard 5 round j-frame capacity.
Most folks with double stack semi-autos either don't worry about a second mag, or generally will carry an extra magazine for malfunctions rather than need more ammo cuz zombie horde.
1911 models are closer to revolvers, the limited round count especially in an officer model means you may want to carry an extra to reload with.

Since my book is geared to the novice not the tactical timmy's, I'm going to stress that its best to simply follow the basics, until they've had some training with reloading under stress.

Thanks Mick-boy for the Jeff Gonzalez article, I'm going to see if I can work in some of that advice about planning your day a bit. That's good stuff...

Thanks everyone!

[LeftHandBlack]

My personal opinion based on basic studies is this: my CCW is there to neutralize a basic threat and/or get myself and loved ones out of danger. Bottom line: self defense, I am not the hero of the day.

Should I need more than my lone mag (12 +1), my belief is I have put myself into an exceptionally bad situation by willful ignorance/stupidity, or I am faced with a an active shooter scenario. I think I have a better chance of winning Powerball than the later, and I play maybe once a month...

Again, my opinion.


Exactly how I feel! I carry a Sig P239 in 40. It is 7 + 1 and if that wont seal the deal Im in way over my head of probably dead!

[YammyMonkey]

If you look through the history of the Armed Citizen column in the NRA magazines you'll see a lot of instances where the problem was solved without shots fired. I would venture to say that a good percentage, maybe even the majority, of Average Dude defensive gun uses would be just fine for the good guy without any ammo in the gun. That said, I don't think anyone here would advocate that as a plan.

My general rule of thumb is that I'll carry one spare mag, regardless of capacity. I want to know that if I get into a fight for my life I have the ability to top off my gun and have a full load. That way, I don't have to wonder about how much ammo I have on board or try to figure it out after an incredibly stressful event. If I go over one mag on the initial fight, well, I've really gotten myself into something big and I'll happily tap into the second mag at that point.

I've carried 3 full size spares as an experiment to see if I could pull it off, and I can, but it doesn't mean that I'm going to on a regular basis.

[Tinelement]

1911
8+1

If I head to the city I add a double mag carrier.

[Persocon]

i carry at least one spare mag, for more even weight, or else i get back pain (2.5lb USP). extra rounds are nice but no pain is +

[sniper7]

I carry 1 round for my LCP .380. That way if I run into 10+ bad guys, it gives the remaining a fighting chance.

[rockhound]

my EDC setups allow for an extra mag, they are comfortable and light weight.

i would think that having a backup mag is important for all kinds of reasons,