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ChunkyMonkey
03-03-2014, 15:51
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/president-obamas-foreign-policy-is-based-on-fantasy/2014/03/02/c7854436-a238-11e3-a5fa-55f0c77bf39c_story.html?tid=pm_opinions_pop


President Obama’s foreign policy is based on fantasy




By Editorial Board (http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-posts-view/2011/12/07/gIQAoEIscO_page.html), Published: March 2


FOR FIVE YEARS, President Obama has led a foreign policy based more on how he thinks the world should operate than on reality. It was a world in which (http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/ukraine-crisis-tests-obamas-foreign-policy-focus-on-diplomacy-over-military-force/2014/03/01/c83ec62c-a157-11e3-9ba6-800d1192d08b_story.html) “the tide of war is receding (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/checkpoint-washington/post/obamas-afghanistan-speech-full-text/2011/06/22/AGHdcUgH_blog.html)” and the United States could, without much risk, radically reduce the size of its armed forces. Other leaders, in this vision, would behave rationally and in the interest of their people and the world. Invasions, brute force, great-power games and shifting alliances — these were things of the past. Secretary of State John F. Kerry displayed this mindset on ABC’s “This Week” Sunday when he said, of Russia’s invasion of neighboring Ukraine, “It’s a 19th century act in the 21st century (http://abcnews.go.com/ThisWeek/week-transcript-john-kerry/story?id=22720806).”

That’s a nice thought, and we all know what he means. A country’s standing is no longer measured in throw-weight or battalions. The world is too interconnected to break into blocs. A small country that plugs into cyberspace can deliver more prosperity to its people (think Singapore or Estonia) than a giant with natural resources and standing armies.


Unfortunately, Russian President Vladimir Putin has not received the memo on 21st-century behavior. Neither has China’s president, Xi Jinping (http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/obamas-asia-rebalance-turns-into-headache-as-china-japan-relations-spiral-down/2014/01/23/b0a158b8-7f5b-11e3-93c1-0e888170b723_story.html), who is engaging in gunboat diplomacy against Japan and the weaker nations of Southeast Asia. Syrian president Bashar al-Assad (http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/syrian-state-media-say-army-killed-175-rebels/2014/02/26/e12d99a2-9f44-11e3-878c-65222df220eb_story.html) is waging a very 20th-century war against his own people, sending helicopters to drop exploding barrels full of screws, nails and other shrapnel onto apartment buildings where families cower in basements. These men will not be deterred by the disapproval of their peers, the weight of world opinion or even disinvestment by Silicon Valley companies. They are concerned primarily with maintaining their holds on power.

Mr. Obama is not responsible for their misbehavior. But he does, or could, play a leading role in structuring the costs and benefits they must consider before acting. The model for Mr. Putin’s occupation of Crimea was his incursion into Georgia in 2008, when George W. Bush was president. Mr. Putin paid no price for that action; in fact, with parts of Georgia still under Russia’s control, he was permitted to host a Winter Olympics just around the corner. China has bullied the Philippines and unilaterally staked claims to wide swaths of international air space and sea lanes as it continues a rapid and technologically impressive military buildup. Arguably, it has paid a price in the nervousness of its neighbors, who are desperate for the United States to play a balancing role in the region. But none of those neighbors feel confident that the United States can be counted on. Since the Syrian dictator crossed Mr. Obama’s red line with a chemical weapons attack (http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/us-russia-reach-agreement-on-seizure-of-syrian-chemical-weapons-arsenal/2013/09/14/69e39b5c-1d36-11e3-8685-5021e0c41964_story.html) that killed 1,400 civilians, the dictator’s military and diplomatic position has steadily strengthened.

The urge to pull back — to concentrate on what Mr. Obama calls “nation-building at home (http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/obama-to-order-home-10000-troops-from-afghanistan-officials-say/2011/06/22/AGUuRCgH_story.html)” — is nothing new, as former ambassador Stephen Sestanovich (http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/maximalist-america-in-the-world-from-truman-to-obama-by-stephen-sestanovich/2014/02/14/1be78b3a-8851-11e3-a5bd-844629433ba3_story.html) recounts in his illuminating history of U.S. foreign policy, “Maximalist (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0307268179/ref=as_li_tf_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=0307268179&linkCode=as2&tag=slatmaga-20).” There were similar retrenchments after the Korea and Vietnam wars and when the Soviet Union crumbled. But the United States discovered each time that the world became a more dangerous place without its leadership and that disorder in the world could threaten U.S. prosperity. Each period of retrenchment was followed by more active (though not always wiser) policy. Today Mr. Obama has plenty of company in his impulse, within both parties and as reflected by public opinion. But he’s also in part responsible for the national mood: If a president doesn’t make the case for global engagement, no one else effectively can.

The White House often responds by accusing critics of being warmongers who want American “boots on the ground” all over the world and have yet to learn the lessons of Iraq. So let’s stipulate: We don’t want U.S. troops in Syria, and we don’t want U.S. troops in Crimea. A great power can become overextended, and if its economy falters, so will its ability to lead. None of this is simple.
But it’s also true that, as long as some leaders play by what Mr. Kerry dismisses as 19th-century rules, the United States can’t pretend that the only game is in another arena altogether. Military strength, trustworthiness as an ally, staying power in difficult corners of the world such as Afghanistan — these still matter, much as we might wish they did not. While the United States has been retrenching, the tide of democracy in the world, which once seemed inexorable, has been receding. In the long run, that’s harmful to U.S. national security, too

As Mr. Putin ponders whether to advance further — into eastern Ukraine, say — he will measure the seriousness of U.S. and allied actions, not their statements. China, pondering its next steps in the East China Sea (http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/kerry-worried-about-asias-sea-disputes-citing-moves-by-china/2014/02/17/852b0376-97b3-11e3-ae45-458927ccedb6_story.html), will do the same. Sadly, that’s the nature of the century we’re living in.


Yep... I wonder if Ron Paul wouldve been worse than Obama *jab *jab!

Mtn.man
03-03-2014, 16:57
Hey BO gets to play golf all over the world.
So he evidently has some balls.

ChunkyMonkey
03-03-2014, 16:57
Hey BO gets to play golf all over the world.
So he evidently has some balls.

Ha!

RblDiver
03-03-2014, 17:10
Bet he's thinking "Hrm, Russia moved in troops to protect his interests and people of the same political persuasion...I wonder if I can move troops into Texas..."

muddywings
03-03-2014, 17:38
Well at least it's not far from his domestic policy. Par for the course...go play more golf!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

<MADDOG>
03-03-2014, 18:00
Talking out of both sides of the mouth: The White House often responds by accusing critics of being warmongers who want American “boots on the ground” all over the world and have yet to learn the lessons of Iraq. So let’s stipulate: We don’t want U.S. troops in Syria, and we don’t want U.S. troops in Crimea. A great power can become overextended, and if its economy falters, so will its ability to lead. None of this is simple.
But it’s also true that, as long as some leaders play by what Mr. Kerry dismisses as 19th-century rules, the United States can’t pretend that the only game is in another arena altogether. Military strength, trustworthiness as an ally, staying power in difficult corners of the world such as Afghanistan — these still matter, much as we might wish they did not. While the United States has been retrenching, the tide of democracy in the world, which once seemed inexorable, has been receding. In the long run, that’s harmful to U.S. national security, too

What are you looking for Chunky?

Here, I'll start: the US if f'n broke!

BPTactical
03-03-2014, 19:54
I don't recall who said it but they said it well:
"While Floppy Ears and Jughead play elementary level marbles, Putin and his crew are playing Kasparov level chess."

ChunkyMonkey
03-03-2014, 20:01
Talking out of both sides of the mouth: The White House often responds by accusing critics of being warmongers who want American “boots on the ground” all over the world and have yet to learn the lessons of Iraq. So let’s stipulate: We don’t want U.S. troops in Syria, and we don’t want U.S. troops in Crimea. A great power can become overextended, and if its economy falters, so will its ability to lead. None of this is simple.
But it’s also true that, as long as some leaders play by what Mr. Kerry dismisses as 19th-century rules, the United States can’t pretend that the only game is in another arena altogether. Military strength, trustworthiness as an ally, staying power in difficult corners of the world such as Afghanistan — these still matter, much as we might wish they did not. While the United States has been retrenching, the tide of democracy in the world, which once seemed inexorable, has been receding. In the long run, that’s harmful to U.S. national security, too

What are you looking for Chunky?

Here, I'll start: the US if f'n broke!

There has to be a balance to everything. Power vacuum in what is now very globalized world will bite us in the butt - both in economic and militarily. Not lifting a finger because of being broke will not make you unbroke.

<MADDOG>
03-03-2014, 20:50
I think we agree there is no military option?

What economic hurt do you think we could influence on Russia?

Quick facts as I know them: the greatest net exporter of energy resources to Europe (The FRG and UK are already crying), a member of BRICS, and a trade surplus of $100B.

I'm sure removal from the G8 may sting a little, but unless there are some serious "House of Cards" dealings in the background, I don't think the US has enough political/economic clout left to make this truly hurt... I keep hearing "got you by the balls" in the background! :D

Your thoughts?

hatidua
03-03-2014, 21:12
What economic hurt do you think we could influence on Russia?

The U.S. has had a defacto trade embargo on Cuba since 1962, -that has done exactly what?

Sanctions = comedy.

<MADDOG>
03-03-2014, 21:21
Lest I forget: who is helping who with Iran, Syria, and to some extent North Korea?

BP's on it...Putin is Kasparov, and he's had his moves planned for some time. I don't like it, but I gotta respect it.

Got ya by the ballllsssssss....

jslo
03-03-2014, 21:21
I don't recall who said it but they said it well:
"While Floppy Ears and Jughead play elementary level marbles, Putin and his crew are playing Kasparov level chess."

I believe that was the House Chairman of the Intelligence Committee Mike Rogers of Michigan

<MADDOG>
03-03-2014, 21:28
The U.S. has had a defacto trade embargo on Cuba since 1962, -that has done exactly what?

Sanctions = comedy.

And they make some hilarious low budget zombie movies!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOquktXvkT4

BPTactical
03-03-2014, 21:31
And they brought us Tony Montana!

hatidua
03-03-2014, 22:25
And they make some hilarious low budget zombie movies!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOquktXvkT4

thanks, now I have a movie for tonight! :p

Aloha_Shooter
03-03-2014, 22:31
The Washington Post still doesn't get it, even when they're feebly jabbing at Obama. Singapore's prosperous because it links into cyberspace?!?!? Maybe their low taxation policy and true capitalist economy has something to do with it? And of course they have to throw in an unrelated jab at Bush too (because of course Obama's ineffective words and lack of action are Bush's fault).

Until 2008, the three worst foreign policy presidents were probably Carter, Wilson, and Clinton (although there's some merit to flopping #1 and #2). Since 2009, it's Obama, Carter, Wilson ... Clinton owes Obama a great debt for getting him off the top three list.

roberth
03-03-2014, 22:34
Part of me is crying for my nation, the other part is laughing my ass off watching this trainwreck.

hghclsswhitetrsh
03-03-2014, 23:02
Fantasy? More like a fucking nightmare.

<MADDOG>
03-03-2014, 23:02
thanks, now I have a movie for tonight! :p

Enjoy! Give it to commies to make a movie about starting a capitalistic business in Havana killing "CIA backed dissidents"! [LOL]

Irving
03-03-2014, 23:55
thanks, now I have a movie for tonight! :p

Pretty sure it's on Netflix or Comcast On Demand. I KNOW I've seen it on one of those two.

Irving
03-04-2014, 00:41
So didn't Obama say some shit today about making a new state for Israel and Palastine? It sounded exactly like the cake example for compromise for gun control to me.

GilpinGuy
03-04-2014, 01:22
Russian pretty much supplies a shit-ton of energy (oil, natural gas) to much of Europe. I keep reading and hearing that this and that European country won't do shit because they get most of their energy from Russia.

Obama has hampered our oil and natural gas industry as much as he can. Perhaps if we were running at full capacity (Keystone Pipeline, etc.) we could be exporting more to these countries and they'd have more balls.

I'm no expert here, that's for sure, but this seems pretty elementary to me.

Great-Kazoo
03-04-2014, 08:41
US prepares $1B aid package for troubled Ukraine




http://news.yahoo.com/us-prepares-1b-aid-package-troubled-ukraine-123023425--politics.html

Mtn.man
03-04-2014, 09:10
If you like your Ukraine,,, You can keep your Ukraine.

Great-Kazoo
03-04-2014, 09:25
If you like your Ukraine,,, You can keep your Ukraine.

PERIOD.

ChunkyMonkey
03-04-2014, 10:59
I think we agree there is no military option?

What economic hurt do you think we could influence on Russia?

Quick facts as I know them: the greatest net exporter of energy resources to Europe (The FRG and UK are already crying), a member of BRICS, and a trade surplus of $100B.

I'm sure removal from the G8 may sting a little, but unless there are some serious "House of Cards" dealings in the background, I don't think the US has enough political/economic clout left to make this truly hurt... I keep hearing "got you by the balls" in the background! :D

Your thoughts?

Not even economic punishment. The EU is too fractioned. If the good ol Nato nations can push for energy sanction as in dont buy Russians.. maybe. But the 80s or 90s are long gone. The Welfare dependant citizens of Europe wont allow it. And good ol USA don't want to corner the Russian to turn their back and go w/ China as energy partner. The Chinese is investing heavily in Africa, Asia, and Iraq/Iran to avoid energy dependant on Russia -- but for the right price, they'll give in. Putin knows this.

Mick-Boy
03-04-2014, 12:13
John Mauldin posted about the economics involved in the situation. It's long so I won't quote the whole thing but there are some interesting points to consider.

http://www.mauldineconomics.com/outsidethebox/ukraine-three-views


My view, Putin is stuck now, cannot easily de-escalate. Further escalation is a possibility, with Ukraine cracking along the obvious ethnic fault lines and the West reacting with measures such as sanctions and visa restrictions. Tit-for-tat follows; gas supplies to the EU are disrupted. Russian capital outflows accelerate and the RUB [ruble] quickly gets to 40/$, fuelling inflation and unnerving the Russian banking system, and also infecting the European banking system, in the manner that Chris Watling has envisaged. Meanwhile, the Chinese liabilities residing inside the European banking system are also in trouble, of course, and will continue to deteriorate. The CBR [Central Bank of Russia] hikes repeatedly with very little effect on slowing the RUB slide, further hurting GDP growth and economically sensitive segments of the market. The Russian RTX index revisits the GFC lows of 2008, Gazprom ADR's are already within shouting distance of their 2008 lows today. In such a scenario, there is an obvious risk of market contagion spreading throughout Eastern and Western Europe, and in fact the rest of the world. It is likely to resemble something on the order of the 1998 LTCM + RUB collapse + Asian financial crisis magnitude. In fact, a number of hedge funds will fail precisely because they have loaded up so heavily with European debt instruments which will unravel.

Aloha_Shooter
03-04-2014, 12:38
I liked K.T. McFarland's thesis in yesterday's FoxNews but Obama would never go for it as it would involve US energy production and other options he's ideologically blind to. At the end of the day, I think Obama would rather accept his own inadequacy and irrelevance (and then blame it on Bush or the GOP) than actually do what it takes to be useful and relevant to the issue. As it stands now, no one has made any case for US national security interests to even warrant the $1B in guarantees he proffered (and I suspect those will be taken then skimmed off by Putin and his allies to fund their own empires).

<MADDOG>
03-04-2014, 12:45
John Mauldin posted about the economics involved in the situation. It's long so I won't quote the whole thing but there are some interesting points to consider.

http://www.mauldineconomics.com/outsidethebox/ukraine-three-views

Interesting read.

I think another one:http://www.cfr.org/ukraine/respond-ukraines-crisis/p32522

whitbaby
03-04-2014, 13:32
Sure wished to hell we still had Petraeus and McChrystal back in the picture...and all the other great generals BHO purged from the military.
Yeah, I know Petraeus had a personal screw-up and the CIA feather-bedders didn't like his disciplined methods, but his experience, education and judgement were irreplaceable in this day and age.

nynco
03-04-2014, 15:04
Basically, Russia will never give up that peninsula. They would be insane to do that. It is strategically necessary for them to be in control of it. Anyone who thinks they will just walk away from it is fooling themselves. Couple that with the fact that over 50% of the local population are ethnic Russian speakers... well is a no brainier. The US is wasting its time and losing face even thinking they have a chance to change that reality. If the Ukrainians think they can beat Russia or that the EU will come to their aid...well... ha

People need to objectively look at the history of the Crimea and where it sits strategically. Russia is doing just what is naturally expected. The Crimea is the gateway to the west. It has a majority Russian population. You think Russia would give that up? If this were the US, do you think we would? Heck no... and the Ukraine has no ability to stop them. So best just let the have it. Its not worth WWIII over.

Really there is no side to cheer for in this. We have the Ukraine which is heavily in bed with fascist nazis VS totalitarian former communist Russia. Its like watching two douche bags fight... neither side is one to favor.

The line about Obama making us look weak is what kills me. It' ONE-dimensional (bad Obama) thinking which makes no sense. There are real world consequences and reality is this is a VERY complicated situation. The part that upsets me the most about this is that people will be killed and potentially millions including your fellow Americans for nothing more than political games attacking Obama for not choosing between Nazis and Commies.

Its a no win and we should not push the US into that quagmire.

http://libcom.org/news/neo-nazis-far-right-protesters-ukraine-23012014

Mick-Boy
03-04-2014, 16:05
It's not just Obama who looks weak. The United States looks weak because our president keeps "warning" people about doing or not doing something and then showing absolutely no follow through. Remember the "red line" in Syria that Putin exploited?

There are a couple of points raised in the link I posted that I'll quote so you don't need to click any links.


Meanwhile, politically, the US ends up looking weaker and weaker, and getting less and less respect internationally. The US-Russia confrontation is taking place under the critical gaze of the leaders of Israel, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Iran, Syria, Turkey and Hizballah in Lebanon.

They are seeing the following:

President Obama is now seen backing off a commitment to US allies for the second time in eight months. They remember his U-turn last August on US military intervention for the removal of Syrian President Bashar Assad for using chemical weapons. They also see Washington shying off from Russia's clear and present use of military force and therefore concluding that Washington is not a reliable partner for safeguarding their national security.

The Middle East governments and groups which opted to cooperate recently with Vladimir Putin – Damascus, Tehran, Hizballah and Egypt – are ending up on the strong side of the regional equation. Others such as Turkey and Qatar are squirming.

American weakness on the global front has strengthened the Iranian-Syrian bloc and its ties with Hizballah. Assad is going nowhere.

Putin standing behind Iran is a serious obstacle to a negotiated and acceptable comprehensive agreement with Iran, just as the international EU- and US-led bid for a political resolution of the Syrian conflict foundered last month, and now is unlikely to ever be revisited.


To add to this perceived weakness, the Kremlin has said that if the US sanctions Russia over The Ukraine, Russia will drop the USD as their reserve currency and refuse to payback any US banks that have made loans to Russia.

Have you ever sat and wondered what the shock that collapses the US system might be? I wonder how cozy Russia and China are right now.....

nynco
03-04-2014, 16:21
Mick, its a rock and a hard place. Obama is not doing perfect at all. But objectively speaking there is no win. Back the Ukrainian new government and you back Neo Nazi Fascists. Back Russia and that looks bad too. Esp to hard line forces in America who hate Obama and are still mentally locked in the communist red scare of my grand parents generation. Its really sad that partisan politics are using this for political gain regardless of national intrests. Threaten Russia for what gain? Its all a crap show and if anything Obama looking strong actually puts the US at risk. We should just declare that the situation is untenable and support the break up of the Ukraine to prevent war.

SamuraiCO
03-04-2014, 16:26
I think that 80's foreign policy Obama joked about is still relevant. The joke is on our POTUS.

<MADDOG>
03-04-2014, 16:45
To add to this perceived weakness, the Kremlin has said that if the US sanctions Russia over The Ukraine, Russia will drop the USD as their reserve currency and refuse to payback any US banks that have made loans to Russia.

Plausible concept, but as long as the petrodollar is the reserve currency, it does nothing but hurt Russian banks (at some point in time, the Ruble has to be converted). Secondly; most of Russia's exports and imports are to/from US friendly countries (http://atlas.media.mit.edu/profile/country/rus/). I might be wrong, but I don't think China sees a dog in this fight, and it won't sacrifice it's plans (whatever they may be) for the Russians.

This popped up on BI also:

The recent escalation of military tensions in between Ukraine and Russia have caused the currencies of both countries to dive against the dollar. Firms in these countries with large proportions of external debt issued in dollars are now facing an increase in the value of their debts relative to the value of their assets, increasing somewhat the risk of default.

In short, when the dollar strengthens, dollar liquidity decreases, and credit risk goes up.

http://www.businessinsider.com/the-hidden-debts-of-russia-and-ukraine-2014-3

What the hell do I know; I'm a single ant sitting on my ant hill in the middle of forest on a very huge planet...

hollohas
03-04-2014, 16:52
It's not just Obama who looks weak. The United States looks weak because our president keeps "warning" people about doing or not doing something and then showing absolutely no follow through. Remember the "red line" in Syria that Putin exploited?


^This. Bama has to stop telling other countries "there will be costs" and that lines have been crossed if we all know the US won't be doing anything. If it's none of our business like some here say, then Bama needs to keep his mouth shut. It only takes so many hollow threats before some crazy country actually does something serious because threats from the USA don't mean shit anymore. Do what you mean and mean what you say or don't say anything. This BS lip service from our leader regarding our foreign policy is setting bad precedent.