View Full Version : CRC Proposal for new range/ban of steel on HP range
If you are on SH, you probably saw this: http://crci.org/Portals/15/Content/Files/Newsletter/89TH%20COLORADO%20RIFLE%20CLUB%20ANNUAL%20MEETINIG The%2089th%20meeting%20of%20the.pdf
As a result, I put together a draft proposal to construct a new range. If you like the idea, or want to offer help/suggestions, drop me a PM and when the collective likes the proposal I will add names and member numbers and run it up the flagpole. Can't promise anything, but at least it will re-start the conversation from a few years ago:
LR Steel Range Proposal
The CRC high power range has been utilized for persons who desire to shoot long range steel, however, some recent problems have occurred. This proposal seeks to:
1. Address the interests of the wide array of range members
2. Allow those who desire to shoot steel at CRC that opportunity
3. Minimize policing of the ranges and member conflicts
4. Minimize costs to CRC for maintenance of this range.
The proposal is to create a new range between East Range berm 1 and the Silhouette range. The firing line would face due North on the section line. Berms would be constructed at distances of 200 yards, 600 yards, 800 yards, 1000 yards and 1200 yards. The firing line will be uncovered and defined by signage and boxed in flattened earth approximately 20 yards N-S and 40 yards E-W. On the East edge of this area, a roof, a barricade and a doghouse will be constructed and utilized as shooting positions.
This range should be restricted to use by members with known or demonstrated ability only who provide and use their own AR500 steel. A lockbox will be constructed and only those with demonstrated or known skill will be provided the lock combination. When the box is closed, a “RANGE CLOSED” sign will be displayed. When the box is open, a “RANGE HOT” sign will be displayed. A bound book will be inside the box with sign-in and sign out entries. The only impact would be on the Silhouette range to place and collect steel, which should take no more than 10 minutes.
CRC members who have competed competently at CRC matches that require shooting beyond 300 yards or who can so demonstrate that competence, will be provided with the lockbox combination and be re required to sign a terms of use for this range. The combination will be changed annually, or if a person is no longer allowed to use this range.
Other than the construction of the berms, the members bringing this proposal will furnish the time, labor and material to construct the shooting line, lockbox and constructed shooting positions. We will also create a safety protocol and conditions of use agreement for CRC BOD approval. Further, it is anticipated that this range, once completed, will also have a monthly match.
We believe that a dedicated long range steel range is practical, will generate income for the club, and will solve some of the issues that have occurred by incompetent persons using steel on the High power range. Once this range is completed, the High Power range steel use allowance could be modified.
Hell, I would donate some steel to the silhouette range to be left out if they would extend it to at least 800m, preferably 1000m, and 1200m as you say would be a good bonus. 500m on normal size steel gets really boring quickly unless you are shooting on one of the monsoon windy afternoons we get out there. At 500m it is more fun for me to shoot my AR with a 1-8.5x with Mil-Surp ammo than it is for me to shoot my precision rigs with Schmidt's and handloads. I suppose some smaller steel targets could help with this, but I'm not sure if they would be approved to be put out permanently.
An additional range would be way cool too, help to have another option when matches are running that I'm not shooting in. Hopefully it would be popular enough to warrant a roof/awning in the foreseeable future.
The only thing I don't like... I'm not a huge fan of the idea that people have to get certified and justify a need to use parts of the range or use them in particular ways. I still need to get 'certified' to do action shooting on the berms. I've been shooting IDPA for quite some time now, am a certified IDPA RSO, have multiple NRA instructor credentials and nearly 3 decades of experience shooting. I'll do any certifications required if I have to. But for some people (read: me!) it is hard enough to get away from work to get checked out and approved when its only offered once in a while, and it is starting to feel awfully 'fuddy' and a bordering on California's CCW permit only if "you need it" system.
Rant off. CRC is still the best club in the state IMHO. I just get cranky from time to time. Thanks for what you do there Mark. It is appreciated, so don't take this the wrong way. I just think that we need to be more inclusive to all of our brother shooters. Why can't they shoot at a long range steel setup? I don't care if they are just adding lead minerals to the dirt. As long as it lands downrange away from shooters/spectators I'm a happy camper.
Rant off. CRC is still the best club in the state IMHO. I just get cranky from time to time. Thanks for what you do there Mark. It is appreciated, so don't take this the wrong way. I just think that we need to be more inclusive to all of our brother shooters. Why can't they shoot at a long range steel setup? I don't care if they are just adding lead minerals to the dirt. As long as it lands downrange away from shooters/spectators I'm a happy camper.
In theory, I agree with you. in theory, I agreed with the founding fathers...In bot cases, irresponsible A-Holes screw it up. I have learned that a restriction keeps out a few good people, but mostly the riff raff. If you knew half the stuff I have found people doing on the range, you would be aghast. Also the reason to have that range be steel only and use only your own steel. The NRA has data that shows bullet landing at angles of about 10 degrees or less and at reduced velocities, skip off the ground. So that has to be addressed. There is afterall, a road downrange.
That said, very open to suggestions.
I get that we have idiots, but if we get bounces off the ground at 10* (angle of incidence is equal to the angle of deflection) we aren't really any worse off than a high miss. The berms need to be made high enough that they are safe for shooting towards whether a miss is low or high. To me it seems this would be the same issue as low misses on the HP range or the silhouette range. Would they not?
Though I have to disagree with your postulation that a few idiots or a-holes can invalidate what was promised to us by our founding fathers. Range safety rules are another topic, and I'll gladly discuss those with an open mind. But number of a-holes will never change my agreement with rights promised to us as natural born US citizens. But I will concede that this topic has only a cursory relationship to our real discussion here.
Maybe I'm missing something, but can you expand/enumerate the reasons behind this statement you posted. I would love a steel only range, and am happy to provide my own, but I am not connecting the need for such a setup due to safety. For cost to the club to increase chances of approval, sure, but for safety I'm not certain I can connect the dots. Best thing I can come up with is to reduce cold range calls (needed there and at the silhouette range) for paper targets. Maybe that is it.
Also the reason to have that range be steel only and use only your own steel.
The morons don't have steel. If there is nothing out there to shoot at, they won't shoot at it (maybe).
Ah understood. I couldn't for the life of me determine how shooting at ones own steel would be inherently safer than shooting at provided steel (and perhaps the opposite given the quality of steel and mounting methods).
But you are proposing a barrier to entry, which I can logically process and follow.
Thanks for clarifying.
For the record, I'll support this new range however it comes about. I think it is a great idea. I just wanted to express my opinion on the stipulations surrounding it.
DeusExMachina
03-04-2014, 20:25
I guess I'm having trouble figuring out why steel is banned on the high power range, since it's not stated anywhere,
RCCrawler
03-04-2014, 20:32
In bot cases, irresponsible A-Holes screw it up. I have learned that a restriction keeps out a few good people, but mostly the riff raff.
I've never understood why places punish the good people by making them jump through hoops as opposed to just dealing with the problem causers and getting rid of them.
Screw up once get a warning, screw up again and revoke their membership.
Probably because you rarely catch the folks in the act, just find the effects later. (but I don't have any details to know for sure)
rustycrusty
03-04-2014, 21:07
I am onboard with getting the new range going. More is good.
I will also give a +1 to the growing 'fuddy' feeling that comes with ineffective rules.
It is impossible to enforce this stuff. Needing to provide your own steel IS a functional method of limiting people, but the problematic people had to have provided their own steel to get us this far into ban land anyway.
This does nothing to prevent people from breaking rules. The ban on steel will not stop anyone from putting steel up. The ban on 'quick draw' is the same- especially when qualification is an additional cost to which only a percentage of people will get access to.
All of the people who are jeopardizing our use of the range are the same people who will not listen to any of the new rules. They are also the least likely to get punished for breaking rules as they are the once or twice a year shooters that come, use the PVC target holders as targets, leave their brass, and leave the gate open.
i know- crazy talk
I'm all for keeping the high power range a dedicated high power range. I guess if people want to shoot steel past 500m then there isn't much choice other than to build an additional range.
All of this "have to get certified to blah, blah, blah" stuff doesn't sit well with me. Like J, I've been around firearms for a long time and used to shoot IPSC, IDPA, Bianchi Cup, NRA high power, etc. Having someone tell me I am not allowed to do certain things at a range where I pay to be a member kind of irks me.
Baby steps. CRC is undergoing some changes. If we stick with it and keep pushing for things to be done right, I believe we can get to a better place. We got some bad apples, and they will be identified and tossed eventually. Until then, some hoops are worth it. I just keep asking for a little each time.
I am all for the extra range and will donate some time if available. I don't mind providing my own steel but the certified part..... I would say no to if put to a vote. It is hard enough to find a time to meet up in the first place.
USMC88-93
03-04-2014, 23:28
I am a paying member in good standing and as such expect something in return from the club, foremost on that list is the expectation that I know what I am doing and the idea that I must "get certified" to use a range just rubs me the wrong way. I sat through orientation and am aware of range rules that should suffice. That being said if I am doing something outside the rules I would expect there to be individuals there willing to point it out be there consequences for me or not. If there is expectation that there are additional certifications required and I have to take time off work or make other arrangements for it would make me rethink my membership.
Sounds like a cool idea to have a new range. I am always up for new/more/different ways to shoot and like the idea of having a steel range out to 1200 yards. So if this is going in between the east berms and the current silhouette range, is there a worry about someone walking down to 1200 yards between two very active existing ranges?
Again, I like the idea but its going to be tough for a lot of people to get qualified and this will likely isolate some very good people with good intentions.
What I would REALLY LOVE to see is the club build a nice club house for the members. If you've ever been to Ben Lomond Gun Club you have seen one of the nicest club houses ever. If I was even a little closer I would join that club almost solely for the club house. Its nice after a long day of shooting with friends and family to go and sit down and relax for a little bit and maybe grab a bite to eat and just sit and BS and hang out for a while.
Some guys have sent me ideas for simpler ways for a control, but I think no controls for the BOD to "like" it is a non-starter. If you have shot HP at CRC or the Precision match, you would be good to go. If this range adds a match, then that is a third way to get cleared.
Walking behind the East ranges is not an issue, but the Silhouette range will be affected and that would need to be considered.
Club house...are you willing to double your annual dues AND spend all the Cash the club has? The increased activity form the East ranges does help, but so too will another match, especially a LR match with minimal cost tot eh club. I can see a clubhouse in a few years. The changes in the last 3 have been pretty impressive.
Yeah, I'd be willing to double my dues for a club-house. Don't think that will be the general opinion among members though. Its nice to dream.
There is no way the board is unaware of the interest in shooting long range steel with precision rifle .
For over a year now at RJ's match there has been from the start at least as many shooters as HP and silhouette and is now pulling double or more . There are CRC board members that shoot the match including the president .
To say they don't know about the demand is wrong .
Club house...are you willing to double your annual dues AND spend all the Cash the club has? The increased activity form the East ranges does help, but so too will another match, especially a LR match with minimal cost tot eh club. I can see a clubhouse in a few years. The changes in the last 3 have been pretty impressive.
Sure, double it if it means a nice place to go and hang out, but like J said I'm sure that won't go over well with the majority. But I cant imagine that CRC is hurting for money right now. The club membership blew up the last two years and with multiple matches going on almost EVERY weekend there has to be funds available in conjunction with the base of members there I am sure there are folks that would be willing to volunteer their time, efforts, expertise and knowledge to help out with it.
I'd be happy to pay higher dues in hopes of keeping the membership comprised of the more serious shooters. My guess is most of the people who wouldn't re-up their dues are probably the ones not adhering to the rules anyways. (Shooting inappropriate weapons on certain ranges, shooting unapproved targets, etc.)
I can't see them putting in a club house for budgetary reasons but it would be kind if cool. Better than that little shack by the rim fire range.
I agree guys.
As for the cranky old shooters who keep throwing mud, I am going to just stop responding to them. :)
I agree guys.
As for the cranky old shooters who keep throwing mud, I am going to just stop responding to them. :)
Really? I'm not sure if you are referring to me or not but it seems you are willing to "respond" if people are behind your segregation of good members but if we dont well then we are not worthy of you time and our opinions dont matter?? I am i correct here??
Can I ask what your position is on the Board of Directors Mark? Because as far as I can find your not a BOD member, so for you to be putting these new "rules and restrictions" in pace and demanding experienced shooters to "qualify" to be able to do certain things seems confusing to me. Like others have mentioned, I too have well over 30 years of safe firearms handling experience, I shoot IDPA, long range comps. and have multiple NRA certifications and teach, on a regular basis, firearms safety courses. But yet I need to justify to you that I am worthy of paying for you to "quality" me to shoot at a shooting range.
I'm confused, but that could just be because I am an old cranky shooter......
Not talking about you at all.
I am not implementing ANY restrictions, just making a proposal. If I had not put in the time and effort to get an approval process for shooting on the East range, the total restriction would still be in place.
Three idiots that went about the range tearing stuff up with AKs, got blamed on us for a short time, as did several other things that got damaged. I guess since I am not a board member I should just sit back and bitch like everyone else and not try to get anything improved. I will consider your suggestion to just be a quitter.
Take a chill pill.
DeusExMachina
03-05-2014, 13:22
I guess I'm having trouble figuring out why steel is banned on the high power range, since it's not stated anywhere,
[Pop]
I guess I'm having trouble figuring out why steel is banned on the high power range, since it's not stated anywhere,
The March 3 Newsletter that I linked in the first line in this thread, and which was emailed to all members, states it is now banned.
I've been a member of one private range or another for over twenty years. It amazes me that people (who I assume are also paying members) would trash a place the way they do. It frustrates me when I see holes shot in benches or chairs or other items used inappropriately as make shift target stands. I just don't get why someone would take a nice place to enjoy their hobby and abuse and destroy it.
As far as membership goes, I think CRC is way too open to just let anyone in. The club I was a member of back in Texas was a bit more exclusive. The only way to join was to have a recommendation from an existing member. I think that policy really cut down on the rif raf and kept the place nice.
As far as membership goes, I think CRC is way too open to just let anyone in. The club I was a member of back in Texas was a bit more exclusive. The only way to join was to have a recommendation from an existing member. I think that policy really cut down on the rif raf and kept the place nice.
That sounds like the good basis for an e-mail to the BOD. :)
The March 3 Newsletter that I linked in the first line in this thread, and which was emailed to all members, states it is now banned.
There is no detail on why though, just an arbitrary statement about safety Were people setting up targets at the 300yd fire line and shooting from the 1k firing line? Where people shooting steel while there were other people in the bunker getting splash? Maybe someday we'll hear what the safety issue was and have an opportunity to think about how it could be done safely. They do hint to that.
DeusExMachina
03-05-2014, 14:36
The March 3 Newsletter that I linked in the first line in this thread, and which was emailed to all members, states it is now banned.
I see. The reason it is banned, is because it is banned. Sounds like our country's administration.
There is no detail on why though, just an arbitrary statement about safety Were people setting up targets at the 300yd fire line and shooting from the 1k firing line? Where people shooting steel while there were other people in the bunker getting splash? Maybe someday we'll hear what the safety issue was and have an opportunity to think about how it could be done safely. They do hint to that.
I did have a discussion with CRC BOD members. Targets were on or in front of the pits, and bullets were striking the pits. Pure stupid if you ask me. The BOD did not think it was a big deal to just ban it with the use of the Silhouette range. I informed them that was not true, so it is being discussed and it is on the agenda for the next BOD meeting. I sent an e-mail today asking what the thought was now that they have received a lot of input.
Fair enough Mark. I am willing to help out anyway I can to make CRC an even better rang for all of us. I truly believe that it is the best rang anywhere near Denver and I value my membership there. Your efforts do not go unnoticed
That sounds like the good basis for an e-mail to the BOD. :)
Fine by me. I did recommend a couple of friends for membership but there were also a couple of friends that wanted in that I didn't recommend. I knew they weren't the type of people who would make good members. I just told those people we weren't accepting new members.
I have continued my conversations. I have been provided the opportunity to attend the BOD meeting next week, so I am going to try to have the proposal done by next Monday. Heck, it might even be best to have 3 or 4 options? My goal is to not garner a No, but at least get a discussion going so that members can voice their desires.
I know that Chuck and Frank mean well, and get thumped and fingers smashed does not bode well. However, I never would have been so bold to assume 5 years ago that CRC (progress for practical shooting) would be where it is today. There are some really old dudes the DO get it, and some that need to be prodded a little more. I'll stop there. http://forum.snipershide.com/images/smilies/smile.png
If bouncing bullets is really a problem, a simple solution would be to re-grade the range in a saw-tooth pattern.
I haven't checked out an Ariel view of the property, but could the existing metallic silhouette range just be extended farther out?
Likely yes. That would be the most cost effective, but it would still be controlled by the Silhouette range rules. Putting a range just East of it would create some autonomy while still banking on the benefits of berms on either side as well as passing NRA review.
Thanks for your efforts Mark and good luck
Thanks. There have been lots of good ideas provided to me by various members. Just trying to get it all organized in the best format to make the best pitch to the BOD.
If you are following this, I will plan to put up the summation of the written proposals that I will present to the board by Monday afternoon. If any CRC member that wants their name and membership number included (Send to me by PM or Email) I will need that by Tuesday at the latest.
USMC88-93
03-06-2014, 22:44
For those that need a visual reference
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v651/PhotoTWB/Colorado%20Rifle%20Club/CRCgoogleearth_zps09bcbb7f.png (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/PhotoTWB/media/Colorado%20Rifle%20Club/CRCgoogleearth_zps09bcbb7f.png.html)
hghclsswhitetrsh
03-06-2014, 23:13
I really need to join this range or one similar
Here it is. Not in stone yet, but getting close. http://forum.snipershide.com/images/smilies/smile.png
LR Steel Range Proposal submitted to CRC BOD on March 13, 2014.
The CRC high power range has been utilized for persons who desire to shoot long range steel, however, some recent problems have occurred. This proposal seeks to:
1. Address the interests of the wide array of CRC members
2. Allow those who desire to shoot LR steel at CRC that opportunity
3. Minimize policing of the ranges and member conflicts
4. Minimize costs to CRC for maintenance of this range.
There are several options for how CRC can provide members with the opportunity to shoot LR steel.
Option 1
Placement of two permanent steel gongs placed at the far East side of the High Power impact berm. The gongs would be AR500, 10” and 16” rounds (~$500). Signs would be placed at the flag pole, the covered line, each intermediate berm , on the road to the pits and near the pits that states:
ONLY approved AR500 targets are allowed on this range. Member targets may only be placed directly west of the steel gong on the impact berm up to 50 feet from the west gong.
Option 2
Create a new range between East Range berm 1 and the Silhouette range. The firing line would face North to Northwest. Berms would be constructed at distances of 600, 800, 1000 and 1200 yards. The firing line will be uncovered and defined by signage and boxed in flattened earth approximately 20 yards N-S and 40 yards E-W. On the East edge of this area, a roof, a barricade and a doghouse will be constructed and utilized as shooting positions. CRC owned steel (2 per berm, ~$2000) is an option as would be member owned steel. Both options have pros and cons that should be explored.
Option 3
Add new berms at 800, 1000 and 1200 yards to the Silhouette range. The new berms could be placed slightly to the east of the current berms and 3 or 4 positions on the .22RF side of the canopy could be designated for LR steel.
Option 4
Build an unknown distance range between the Schuetzen and High Power ranges. With the combination of some berms already present, this would reduce the cost. A berm placed 30 to 50 yards to the east of the newly built Schuetzen range combined with an end berm at 1200 to 1300 north of the Schuetzen firing line would create a range more appealing to both Long Range shooters as well as military and police agencies desiring to train and or practice unknown distance shooting without a defined firing line. The shooting area could be defined with minimum and maximum forward lines.
Other Options?
There may be other viable options as well. For instance, it may be possible to create LR berms beyond berm 13 on the East ranges.
Implementation
Regardless of option, the members who desire this type of shooting acknowledge that persons lacking the skill and or experience to practice this type of shooting can be problematic. While restrictions are not desired, these members would be willing to adopt some use restrictions if the BOD is willing to explore one or more of these options. A qualification process can be subsequently proposed that a member would have to complete prior to use. Irrespective, it would make sense for CRC to implement a zero tolerance policy with respect to unapproved target use. None of us want the range property damaged, or worse yet, to have it closed due to improper use. Sign-in, sing-out logs, lock boxes for the range “HOT” and “CLOSED” signs or flags and even the actual targets, are viable means of controlling access to a LR range or set of targets.
Other than the construction of the berms, the members bringing this proposal are willing to furnish the time, labor and material to construct shooting line, lockboxes , constructed shooting positions and the targets/hangers. We will also create a safety protocol and conditions of use agreement for CRC BOD approval if so desired. Further, it is anticipated that if option 2-4 are implemented, it will be utilized for at least one monthly match.
Option 1 could be implemented in short order while it is understood that options 2-4 would require times and resources of the BOD and volunteers. We believe that a dedicated long range steel range is practical, will generate income for the club, and will solve some of the issues that have occurred by incompetent persons using steel on the High Power range. Once a LR range is completed, the High Power range steel use allowance could be modified.
These proposals were presented to the CRC BOD with the support of the following members:
It's not March 13th yet. Is this what you plan to propose to the BOD on that date?
option 3, that range is meters.
Option 4 is the grail, it would have a sawtooth grading to create mini berms all the way back to the big one at the end? (and narrow but long)
It's not March 13th yet. Is this what you plan to propose to the BOD on that date?
Yes
option 3, that range is meters.
Option 4 is the grail, it would have a sawtooth grading to create mini berms all the way back to the big one at the end? (and narrow but long)
Understood, but the intent would be to only shoot the long stuff from a few of the East stations and there is no reason to keep the "m" since they don't shoot silhouette out that far. If we can get them to consider Option 4, there would have to be a dialog. If that idea is open, I would try to create a working group of members and the BOD to work on it.
I was thinking that mixing units on the same range would be frowned upon. It could be fun to see who remembers that the front ones are not yds though.
Not sure it is worth mentioning the steel cost for anything except option 1. The other costs just in moving dirt would dominate unless you are attempting to distract with a relatively low number.
Even if it only results in the first option I support it, can add my name to it FWIW.
Do you like the red door or the blue door sir? :)
Well, today is the day we will see what happens.
Delfuego
03-13-2014, 15:37
Well, today is the day we will see what happens.Good Luck! [Beer]
The Board voted unanimously to remove the restriction of no steel on the High Power Range. A notice should be up on the CRC website in a day or two which will also state that the steel must be placed on the impact berm.
In addition, the board desires to implement Option 1 with club owned steel that will be restricted to use by members who sign off on a use policy and the steel will be in a lockbox. An area will be constructed on the East side for the target hangers as well as a leveled area where members can place their own steel. They would like a recommendation for usage and restrictions of same.
The Board also agreed to evaluate Options 2-4 to create a place for LR steel shooting.
Don't know what more we could ask for. [Flower]
Honestly, a sign would be a wise investment. Sure, they can put it on the website, but a couple of 50-cent laminated signs at the bunker and at each firing line could go a long ways.
Honestly, a sign would be a wise investment. Sure, they can put it on the website, but a couple of 50-cent laminated signs at the bunker and at each firing line could go a long ways.
That will happen in concert with Option 1.
Excellent job sir. Thanks for your hard work getting this situation fixed. I like your proposal for the addition of a dedicated range, but this is a good start. Just wanted to say thanks.
USMC88-93
03-13-2014, 21:18
One of the biggest problems out there is even if you find someone doing something blatantly wrong or even a simple educational opportunity there is little to no follow up through the Board. Examples being the occasional individual that sets up steel of the 600, 700, or 800 yard firing position and than proceeds to blast away at it from the 1000 yard firing position thinking "their steel is in the impact area" Some of them just can not get it through their head that their steel is placed on a firing position and not an acceptable impact area behind the target area. When the light bulb goes off that they can put the steel at the backstop and set up on the 200, 300 400 yard firing positions it really is sad to watch the clock in their head turn. Yet in these situations there is no penalty involved. Board ask after you provide names license plates, and video or photo proof........ "did you tell them", "did you stop them", well then thats that. While there are rules in place CRC must implement some way of actual follow up and enforcement penalty or its all just hot air. Hell I was talking to one of the board members tonight and he was shocked to learn (as he put it) that there was no actual language in the rules as relates to where to place steel out there. We would all hope that people would understand and common sense would dictate it be placed at the berm but there is no actual language written to that affect.
Thats the hard part of it for me is the fact that I am so vocal about not wanting "certifications" but understand the difficulties of managing the range and the rules required.
I think the board as a group learned some things during the meeting. While I do not feel it appropriate to disseminate the discussions of other topics, I was encouraged by their discussion of some of the things you mentioned USMC88-93. I hope that, if nothing else, members will see that the board are as well members, and want what is best for the club. There are topics that they need to learn about, but they have consistently shown that they are open to such, if given the opportunity.
A new position was created, which will come out, that will be helpful in terms of reporting persons who violate range rules.
First: MARKCO.... Thanks for your work on this.
Second: Not to sound too dumb but could somebody draw out what is expected for where is good/not good for steel placement? Verbally it sounds like a person might think they are within the rules when they are not and then, as USMC88 points out, miss what is intended.
As long as it is AR500, we are good-ta-go?
I'll let Mark comment on the new policy but in the past you placed your steel where the bullets hit the berm. There are obvious ruts in the berm behind where each target comes up. This is where the bullets hit the berm when firing at the paper targets. Set your steel there so a miss hits the same rut the paper targets make and a hit splashes out onto the berm.
I'll let Mark comment on the new policy but in the past you placed your steel where the bullets hit the berm. There are obvious ruts in the berm behind where each target comes up. This is where the bullets hit the berm when firing at the paper targets. Set your steel there so a miss hits the same rut the paper targets make and a hit splashes out onto the berm.
Yes. Here is a picture as well. 42073
Delfuego
03-14-2014, 10:54
Your the man Mark!
Yes. Here is a picture as well. 42073
Thanks, that is exactly what I was looking for.
USMC88-93
03-14-2014, 19:23
Essentially above ground hog and below numbers directly in front of impact area. Steel would shot at in the "paper target impact area". Extraneous video and pictures for those that have yet to visit or shoot at CRC
XAQ-dCT1QDM <-- Video from in pits.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v651/PhotoTWB/Colorado%20Rifle%20Club/DSCN4158_zpsce49f4a1.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/PhotoTWB/media/Colorado%20Rifle%20Club/DSCN4158_zpsce49f4a1.jpg.html)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v651/PhotoTWB/Colorado%20Rifle%20Club/DSCN4147_zps6f8c9e05.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/PhotoTWB/media/Colorado%20Rifle%20Club/DSCN4147_zps6f8c9e05.jpg.html)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v651/PhotoTWB/Colorado%20Rifle%20Club/DSCN4148_zps3f879425.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/PhotoTWB/media/Colorado%20Rifle%20Club/DSCN4148_zps3f879425.jpg.html)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v651/PhotoTWB/Colorado%20Rifle%20Club/DSCN4137_zps3beed626.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/PhotoTWB/media/Colorado%20Rifle%20Club/DSCN4137_zps3beed626.jpg.html)
Just a little follow-up...
Those of you who sent nasty-grams to the BOD over this issue might consider an apology-gram at this point.
Those of you who sent e-mails with your requests, a follow-up thank you to the BOD might also be nice.
People tend to bitch and moan and then never say thanks. The BOD serves the membership by being voted into office and your support for decisions you agree with is just as important as letting them know when you do not agree.
As soon as an announcement goes up they'll get a nice thank you email.
If it remains a hidden feature like east range clearance then no.
DeusExMachina
03-15-2014, 08:03
Still no announcement on the website but I did see the PDF linked here. Where is that found?
Frankly, if I didn't happen upon this thread, I'd have no idea anything changed then changed again.
And will those accepting the use policy be charged a $10 fee?
USMC88-93
03-16-2014, 13:12
On a side note, the one thing that I wish they would put out there is a solar or electrically powered key pad gate with individual codes for each member, that way the gate could stay shut and there could be some sort of monitoring of member access.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v651/PhotoTWB/Colorado%20Rifle%20Club/2012-04-28101714.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/PhotoTWB/media/Colorado%20Rifle%20Club/2012-04-28101714.jpg.html)
I'd guess it is left open for match access most Saturdays
http://crci.org/RangeProtocol/tabid/624/Default.aspx
Checking the posted rules as those were changed quietly there is this in the highpower section:
7. Any supplemental target not mounted on the Pit Target Frames, MUST BE placed on the impact area of the backstop. Placing any target in front of or on the pit building is PROHIBITED.
There is no blanket steel ban for the highpower range.
I see there is also a blanket ban on wearing handguns, I seem to recall an exception for concealed carry before.
4. Wearing handguns in Holsters is PROHIBITED on CRC property.
NOTE: Exceptions to wearing handguns in holsters on CRC property are: Law enforcement officers in uniform. On the East Range only, shooters are authorized to carry guns in holsters while participating in, or practicing for, organized events such as USPSA Pistol, Steel Challenge, Zoot, Cowboy Action, etc.
There is also a new ban on steel at the 100/200yd range, was not mentioned before.
If that is the only result I see no reason for any new thank you email.
Denny ordered signs today and the order for targets has been placed as well.
USMC88-93
03-23-2014, 21:11
Received email today
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v651/PhotoTWB/Colorado%20Rifle%20Club/CRC_zps444fe1f1.png (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/PhotoTWB/media/Colorado%20Rifle%20Club/CRC_zps444fe1f1.png.html)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v651/PhotoTWB/Colorado%20Rifle%20Club/CRCsteel_zps40d3f6eb.png (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/PhotoTWB/media/Colorado%20Rifle%20Club/CRCsteel_zps40d3f6eb.png.html)
merl, sent your thanks e-mail yet?
Two pieces of steel and a stand for the HP range, 4 pieces of steel for the Silhouette range and 2 pieces of steel and a stand for the 200 yard (berm 13) have been ordered.
Steel is NOT allowed on the 100 yard (berm 12) east range bay.
USMC88-93
03-24-2014, 20:18
Where is the Silhouette range placement, are they adding distance to the range or within the current distances?
DeusExMachina
03-24-2014, 20:35
Berm 13 is 100 yard with 3 sides, and berm 14 is 200 yards with 2 sides. Shouldn't the allowance of steel be opposite?
Where is the Silhouette range placement, are they adding distance to the range or within the current distances?
Replacing current gongs
Berm 13 is 100 yard with 3 sides, and berm 14 is 200 yards with 2 sides. Shouldn't the allowance of steel be opposite?
Depends on how you count the split berm, I have been counting it as one berm. You can shoot steel from the pad on the 200 yard, but you can not shoot steel in the 100 yard berm.
rustycrusty
03-25-2014, 04:18
What is the rationale behind the east berm steel ruling (as well as the draw certification)?
- the design of open pistol berms -such as the east berms- is to facilitate IDPA/USPSA/Steel Challenge type events AND ALLOW PRACTICE FOR SUCH SPORTS to take place.
The 'outpouring of protest' pertained to the restrictions on shooting of steel targets throughout the facility. - if such a thread had been started earlier I'm sure that the draw restriction would have elicited the same angry reactions from people. - This is the first time the BoD has cared to put an ear to cries of protest.
If this thread is what the BoD is referring to when mentioning a large protest then we need more of it.
The Bod seem very out of touch if the steel shooting sports have crept up on them. This is years in now... We need to keep up.
this whole knee-jerk reaction restriction nonsense - starting with the 'QuickDraw certification' isn't LIKE panic legislation... This IS panic legislation.
MarkCO- I know you are pressing for our club to adapt and keep relavant and attractive to shooters in these 'new' sports, but there must be a better way of keeping the BoD from going all NYC on us... There has to be a better way.
Panic sets in for me when I think of having to use a public range to practice steel challenge- especially knowing that the club that hosts the matches has decided that individual practice of the sport is 'too dangerous'.
What kind of message does that send?
merl, sent your thanks e-mail yet?
Two pieces of steel and a stand for the HP range, 4 pieces of steel for the Silhouette range and 2 pieces of steel and a stand for the 200 yard (berm 13) have been ordered.
Steel is NOT allowed on the 100 yard (berm 12) east range bay.
Not yet. I want to add a question directly about concealed carry as the rules seem to have changed there. But there is on reason to combine them so I'll drop a short thank you today.
Would steel would be allowed at the 100y berm along the same rules as the rest of East, no centerfilre rifle? Someone want to do offhand with their hi-point it would be OK.
What is the rationale behind the east berm steel ruling (as well as the draw certification)?
- the design of open pistol berms -such as the east berms- is to facilitate IDPA/USPSA/Steel Challenge type events AND ALLOW PRACTICE FOR SUCH SPORTS to take place.
MarkCO- I know you are pressing for our club to adapt and keep relavant and attractive to shooters in these 'new' sports, but there must be a better way of keeping the BoD from going all NYC on us... There has to be a better way.
Would steel would be allowed at the 100y berm along the same rules as the rest of East, no centerfilre rifle? Someone want to do offhand with their hi-point it would be OK.
I will try to combine these two questions as it was my error...
Rifle (centerfire rifle calibers), on steel, is not allowed on ANY of the East full bays. The 200 yard berm CAN have centerfire shot at steel provided the targets are set back in the berm AND you shoot from the elevated pad. If you want to shoot .22RF or PCC on steel in the rest of the East bays, that is okay provided you have the clearance. On the club provided paper backers, sure, you can shoot CF rifle. When you use the provided backers RETURN them to their storage location and PICK UP YOUR targets and trash (directed at whoever is a range pig). I will say this. The BOD looks to be more inclined to suspend or revoke memberships for those who do not take care of the range. Just follow the rules, they are not that hard.
However, to say the BOD does not listen, or that this is the first time they have responded to protest is ignorant of what the BOD does and or has done. EVERY single time I have asked to address an issue with the BOD, they have listened and responded. My history at CRC is only a few years, but I believe great strides have been made to both improve the facility and to understand the needs of the practical/tactical shooters coming into the club. I asked for the split berm as well as the 100 and 200 on the East range just to afford more options, and the BOD approved the funds and got them built. Now they are looking at the creation of a new range for LR steel.
That said, there have been some serious issues with safety, ignorance and just plain stupidity by some new members. When one is a straight line bench type shooter and they see the new folks come in and then they see those types of actions, I really can't blame the BOD, given their understanding and history, to impose restrictions. I see my "job" as helping the BOD understand the needs of the P/T shooters even as they try to balance those with the "traditional" type of members. And learn they have, even participating in many of the new events. We still have yet to have a BOD member try a 3Gun match, but every other match type one of them has tried, even if just to understand the basics. Show me any other club where that has happened.
Personally, I do not like the CCW restriction, but I have not addressed it with the BOD for a variety of reasons.
As for the restriction on "quick-draw" and movement, realize that is WAS a prohibition. I asked for variance, and was granted such, by the creation of a clearance procedure. I know some people are pissed about it, but at the time, it was the path to get it allowed. I think there are maybe a dozen people TOTAL who have requested such and maybe 10 or so have actually completed it. Yes, it costs $10 to get the flag, which I paid for and just get reimbursed. Yes it is inconvenient. However, if you have shot ANY form of organized P/T match and understand about the issues related to proper steel placement in a berm, it will seem almost stupid easy to you. I have driven out to the range 3 times and the people who asked did not show up, so now I only do it when I am going out anyway. Show up at a 3Gun match or a USPSA pistol match, I will probably be there, but I would still check first.
rustycrusty
03-25-2014, 10:43
Previous post of mine may have painted the BoD as villains- not my intention.
I see the club growing and changing for the good- I mean to speak strongly against the changes that I see detrimental to the club.
The BoD does seem a bit removed from these conversations- and decision making at the top could be more transparent simply due to inefficient communication methods. Email is great, the website is getting better. Both of those methods are communications from individual to BoD or opposite.
A forum like this for members to collectively talk about issues at CRC is needed. This would also be a great place for identifying the reckless shooters ruining it for us all. Creating a forum that the BoD can reference, and post on ,would be a large step towards addressing the communication void. It would build a more unified group among CRC members.
It is hard to have an idea of member desires as a whole without such a forum, as many of the members will keep their qualms or ideas to themselves rather than individually speak to the board. I am trying to do less of that, but I recognize that my previously unvoiced concern is not unique.
USMC88-93
03-25-2014, 10:47
.................... but there must be a better way of keeping the BoD from going all NYC on us...
I laughed out loud, that was funny.
. We still have yet to have a BOD member try a 3Gun match, but every other match type one of them has tried, even if just to understand the basics.
What about pressing the board, or a portion of its members to at least attend a portion of the Noveske multigun event to get a feel for it.
I will certainly invite them. I think they came out for Noveske in 2012, but not in 2013. What cracks me up about three gun is the response from people seeing it the first time, especially top level shooters. They have one of three responses typically. 1) I could never do that. 2) That looks dangerous. or 3) I want to do that!
I do read the discussions about this club, and other clubs, and I obviously participate on many levels in the P/T types of shooting. I agree that keeping the discussion going is beneficial, and I will do my best to convey summaries to the BOD as best I can.
For now, while it might taste bad, one of the things that is needed is for all members to self police. If you see a member doing something wrong, feel free to have a polite conversation. If you see someone with out a badge that is not part of a formal match, ask them to put on their badge. If either goes poorly, gain some distance, take a photo of the car with the plate and such and report it to Steve Fowler. I fully believe 95% of the members don't even need rules. Maybe 4% need some rules to keep their lack of common sense, understanding of principles in check and 1% need to have their memberships revoked. Education is key to moving the 95% to 99%, but 1% will just always be bad apples. Identify and remove is the best policy, and I think the BOD sees that.
My hope is that I can get someone to step forward as the MG match director in 2015 and then I might just try to run for the BOD myself. :)
USMC88-93
03-30-2014, 22:10
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v651/PhotoTWB/Colorado%20Rifle%20Club/CRCBerm_zps6ab5c8a6.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/PhotoTWB/media/Colorado%20Rifle%20Club/CRCBerm_zps6ab5c8a6.jpg.html)
The signs are done and I have $1600 of steel sitting in the shop that needs to get set up. Who needs some workbond time worked off? I am thinking I will go out on Friday morning.
Putting in the bases on Friday, and hanging the signs. If anyone wants to knock off some workbond, could use the help.
Will be out working Friday and Saturday. Still amazed that with all the complainers, not a SINGLE CRC member has stepped up to help with the work. Have had people that don;t even belong offer help though. Guess that is typical.
Will be out working Friday and Saturday. Still amazed that with all the complainers, not a SINGLE CRC member has stepped up to help with the work. Have had people that don;t even belong offer help though. Guess that is typical.
Personally, I have no desire to shoot steel on that range. Also, my schedule leaves me very little time for family and friends, much less fulfilling my work bond. That's why I pay my hundred bucks every year.
Best of luck. Hope someone turns out to lend you a hand.
ray, I certainly don't expect people who won't use it to help, so it is not you at all. It is the 30 to 40 people who lit up the BODs inboxes calling them names and complaining, then when the BOD spends $2K to provide them steel, reverses the ban, they are too lazy to even toss in a few hours for the solution. There are even 6 or 7 who promised to help, but I have not even so much as gotten a response from my emails to them. The 4 or 5 people showing up tomorrow, don't need this steel, and 2 don't even belong to the range. It is pretty pathetic. At least they won't have a leg to stand on next time something they don't like happens.
But I will bet a dollar to a doughnut, the first day it is up, several people will want to shoot it.
USMC88-93
06-19-2014, 20:53
I've missed every organized event that I wanted to attend this year either due to time conflicts or personal health issues. Saving a fortune on ammunition and gas but wish I had the time to burn off a little stress out there. The only time I have pulled a trigger this year was the Remember the Brave match weekend.
Look, Mark.... Its time to get off your high horse. I'm tired of it.
I want to give back to CRC, and I try to do so by volunteering at some matches, and trying my best to spend 10-15 minutes every range trip to make it better than when I arrived.
But you posting up a couple days before you are going out on a FRIDAY is not much help. Most of us have jobs that we can't just leave to go work the range. And even this weekend, I could have worked this Saturday if I knew a month ago, but the wife made plans by the time you posted this here.
I'm sick and tired of your holier than thou attitude, that you think you have the right to "certify" me to use a range, in a method that I have stacks of credentials and experience to use in ways that are normal to me.
You want to play martyr to the shooting public, fine by me. But don't do it on my board any more. I expect some backlash here. But your attitude and unfounded pompous ass attitude is no longer welcome here.
That is all.
kidicarus13
06-19-2014, 23:09
Well... ok then... sooo... [cricket cricket] When's the Broncos first preseason game?
Mark you did an excellent job getting the BoD to allow stell again and I have benefitted greatly from your advice, but J has a valid point. I like most would love to help out and donate my time, however between work, wife, and a 2 year old that consumes my world I can not drop work or come out on a moments notice. You are getting upset that no one comes to help, but three days notice just doesn't work for the majority of us. I understand your anger and it is just, as a lot of members want all the perks without the price, but you may need to go about this another way. The club sets work party dates so far out for a reason. Maybe try setting a date At least a month in advance and you may have a better turn out. It may only be a few guys but it could be 10.
Lars, J is obviously, and very ignorantly, torqued about something else. As for notice, I understand people have stuff to do. I have a family, 2 businesses, boys baseball and all kinds of stuff to do. But if you look up in the thread, I have been asking for help for a few MONTHS. The people who emailed me and committed to help with the work did not even have the time to send an email and say they were busy? Yes, there were a scant few who volunteered to help. Had a non-member show up with a gas powered post hole digger today to help, and Mike and RW. I am not angry, but I am disappointed that so many people are willing to slander, write hate words in emails and on forums, but when the time comes to offer input for a solution...nothing. Does that apply to everyone, surely not, but it used to never happen in the shooting sports and it is becoming commonplace.
If J wants to ban me from his board for getting the BOD to rescind the ban on any type of action based practice on the East ranges and the ban on steel on the HP range, then that is certainly his choice, but to post such hate without having a clue what the facts are says something about a person.
Anyway, the posts for the steel on the HP range are in and there is a target set out there. They need to be taken down when not shooting the actual steel. Mike, who is shooting the match tomorrow has the skinny on how they go up. It is pretty simple. There is a sister set on the East 200 yard berm. If you have chain, or strap hung steel, I made it really easy to hang your steel on the frames. Please keep the cotter pins and washers in place. The crossbar is pretty stout, but I know it won't last forever. If you happen to see it as being damaged, just take it down and let me know and we will get it replaced.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.3 Copyright © 2025 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.