View Full Version : ATF DEMANDS LIST OF 80% AR LOWER BUYERS
ChunkyMonkey
03-13-2014, 14:44
http://fox5sandiego.com/2014/03/12/gun-store-owner-halts-federal-raid/#6Z6BoExdrRpxQWKd.01
OCEANSIDE, Calif. – The owner of an Oceanside store that sells various gun parts to build a rifle from scratch refused to turn over his customer list when he was raided by federal agents Wednesday.Dimitrios Karras, owner of Ares Armor, said the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives agents were investigating their business, not for what they sell, but for the people who purchase their products.
http://tribkswb.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/80-percent-lower-receiver.png?w=300&h=168 (http://tribkswb.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/80-percent-lower-receiver.png)Karras said the ATF threatened to shutter their business if they didn’t hand over the names of 5,000 customers who have purchased an 80 percent lower receiver (the base) for building an AR-15.
It is legal to build a rifle from scratch without serial numbers only if the base is manufactured to ATF specifications. The base is not considered a firearm if it’s sold separately.
A manufacturer made an 80 percent receiver in plastic with a different material and colors which show exactly where the customer can drill making it easier and cheaper to build. The ATF said it is illegal.
The ATF sent stores, including Ares Armor, letters demanding they turn over the products and names of customers who purchased them.
“They said either give us these 5000 names or we are coming in and taking pretty much anything – which is a huge privacy concern and something we are not willing to do,” said Karras.
Karras’s attorney informed the ATF to pick up the receivers Wednesday morning at their Oceanside location, but the inventory was not the issue. The store owner said he will not comply with turning over their private client list.
“They were going to search all of our facilities and confiscate our computer and pretty much shut our business down,” said Karras. “The government invades our privacy on a daily basis and everyone thinks its ok. This is one of those situations where hopefully the governmental institutions will come in say this is protected and no you’re not taking it from them.”
In anticipation of a raid, they filed a temporary restraining order against the ATF, stopping them from confiscating their property, Karras said. The ATF has a certain amount of time to respond. If the two parties do not reach a compromise, they will be in court for a preliminary hearing March 20.
Read more: http://fox5sandiego.com/2014/03/12/gun-store-owner-halts-federal-raid/#ixzz2vsTbGt47
Why dont The ATF focus on the bad guys.. Mexican gun smuggling maybe? Oh wait!
Why dont The ATF focus on the bad guys.. Mexican gun smuggling maybe? Oh wait!
Because according to the ATF *we* are the bad guys.
I think these are the new polymer ones they are doing or at least that is what the owner said on the news channel that was interviewing him. Basically the ATF says the process makes it a firearm then the manufacturer's process of the 80% then makes it back into an 80%. something like that.
I was very interested in this legal standoff, I bought a few of their items they were selling. I am sure during the process of confiscating all the businesses records they would glean who bought the alminum 80% ones as well. And well... as soon as people have information it is really hard to "destroy" it once you got it.
HoneyBadger
03-13-2014, 14:57
Time for the store to move their records to a secure and secret location, or destroy them altogether. AFAIK, they are not required by law to keep records of every sale, so they shouldn't run into any legal problems if they have a bonfire out back and burn those records.
trlcavscout
03-13-2014, 15:03
Good tell them to pound sound
jhood001
03-13-2014, 15:29
This is probably part of further retribution for not going along with their local governments demand to take down their store sign. I believe Nutnfancy did a video about it.
http://freedomoutpost.com/2014/02/ares-armor-tactical-store-threatened-fines-jail-time-ar-15-sign/
Ares Armor (http://aresarmor.com/) is a small tactical company that operates a store in National City, California. Recently the town of National City disapproved of a sign displayed at the National City store location and told the store, "Take down the sign or go to jail. We do not approve of guns...or you."
http://cdn.freedomoutpost.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/ares.jpg
Punkface
03-13-2014, 15:35
From what I can gather, ATF is accusing Ares of making polymer lowers then filling in the lower with a different polymer, creating a lower then making it an 80% lower.
Ares says they make the filings first then mold polymer around the fillings keeping it as an 80% lower and never completing the lower.
buffalobo
03-13-2014, 16:45
Some stuff is just stupid. This is one of them. Just more tyranny from .gov.
Lobbed from my electronic ball and chain
BPTactical
03-13-2014, 17:29
Remember the CA representative who broke out in lil buhholes and pooped hisself over the "Ghost Guns" who made a total ass of hisself?
Wanna bet he is from Ares district?
The city leaned on Ares about their sign and Ares told them to pound sand.
The city dropped a dime to the Feds.
There has been a bit of discussion about flats and 80% "firearms".
I guarantee you they will be on the chopping block before long...
The ".gov" likes to keep that whole "undocumented" thing to themselves. Once John Q Public starts figuring out a way to keep things (especially firearms) legally undocumented from them....well, they'll have none of that! Remember, the government hates competition. [Coffee]
clodhopper
03-13-2014, 17:59
Good luck to the ATF on recovering lowers from those 5000 people. I doubt that select group of people will take too kindly to the ATF making a house call.
OMG!!!!!!!!! BUY BUY BUY!!!!!!!!!![panic][panic][panic][panic]
Aloha_Shooter
03-13-2014, 18:21
My initial inclination was to fall on the company's side but this
From what I can gather, ATF is accusing Ares of making polymer lowers then filling in the lower with a different polymer, creating a lower then making it an 80% lower.
Ares says they make the filings first then mold polymer around the fillings keeping it as an 80% lower and never completing the lower.
at least gives me pause. If that's really what they're doing, I can at least see the ATF's point that this process isn't the same as having to machine out an unfinished piece of cast or forged metal. I'm still not sympathetic to the idea that ATF can charge in demanding records like this but the process described above -- if accurate -- just reminds me of kids I've dealt with arguing they aren't really watching TV because they just happened to be in the room with the TV on or it's okay to have ice cream before bed despite not eating their vegetables at dinner because they weren't really hungry at dinner but they are now. Bad analogies but so is molding around the fillers that need to be removed and claiming that's the same a traditional "80%" finished piece of metal.
baglock1
03-13-2014, 18:34
My initial inclination was to fall on the company's side but this ...
... least gives me pause. If that's really what they're doing, I can at least see the ATF's point that this process isn't the same as having to machine out an unfinished piece of cast or forged metal. I'm still not sympathetic to the idea that ATF can charge in demanding records like this but the process described above -- if accurate -- just reminds me of kids I've dealt with arguing they aren't really watching TV because they just happened to be in the room with the TV on or it's okay to have ice cream before bed despite not eating their vegetables at dinner because they weren't really hungry at dinner but they are now. Bad analogies but so is molding around the fillers that need to be removed and claiming that's the same a traditional "80%" finished piece of metal.
Your pseudo-defense of the ATF (and yes, I realize you're not really defending them as much as bringing up a different perspective) might mean something to me if the ATF wasn't acting in a manner contrary to the Constitution, and not just in regards to the 2A. As far as I'm concerned, their behavior, over a variety of situations, has made them an agency that needs to be shut down.
lowbeyond
03-13-2014, 20:39
Seems reasonable. Law is the law and they enforce the law.
Why should anyone question the kind souls who are just doing their job?
BPTactical
03-13-2014, 20:54
Seems reasonable. Law is the law and they enforce the law.
Why should anyone question the kind souls who are just doing their job?
[Bang] [hammer]
Who broke the law here, the FFL or the customers? Both?
Seems reasonable. Law is the law and they enforce the law.
Why should anyone question the kind souls who are just doing their job?
http://troll.me/images/the-most-interesting-man-in-the-world/im-not-always-sarcastic-but-when-i-am-you-cannot-tell.jpg
Who broke the law here, the FFL or the customers? Both?
The ATF for enforcing illegal laws.
And the very existence of the bureau offends me on top of things.
Maybe they should be more concerned with the goings on in Oakland. What a waste of money and resources.
colorider
03-13-2014, 22:58
The story will hit the loudmouth libtards. They will make a big ol shitstorm about how easy it is to make a gun that does not have to be registered, or background check, and how any idiot (their words) can make an ar-15. bla bla bla bla. The democraps will run with it and Obutthole will make 80% lowers a regular firearm. Just one scenario I see playing out.
ChunkyMonkey
03-14-2014, 00:15
The story will hit the loudmouth libtards. They will make a big ol shitstorm about how easy it is to make a gun that does not have to be registered, or background check, and how any idiot (their words) can make an ar-15. bla bla bla bla. The democraps will run with it and Obutthole will make 80% lowers a regular firearm. Just one scenario I see playing out.
hahah.. next thing you know, we must serialize every block of aluminum coming out of the smelters.
hahah.. next thing you know, we must serialize every block of aluminum coming out of the smelters.
No, they'll just demand that only licensed manufacturers can make a firearm. Oh and you must be in the business to get a license, not a hobby. Oh and assembling a virgin lower is manufacturing.
BPTactical
03-14-2014, 07:19
No, they'll just demand that only licensed manufacturers can make a firearm. Oh and you must be in the business to get a license, not a hobby. Oh and assembling a virgin lower is manufacturing.
Don't give em any ideas....
dirtrulz
03-14-2014, 07:29
Why would the business get names of people buying the lowers. Isnt the point of the 80 percent lowers to not have to give names. The customer would have to use a credit card.
Aloha_Shooter
03-14-2014, 07:39
Why would the business get names of people buying the lowers. Isnt the point of the 80 percent lowers to not have to give names. The customer would have to use a credit card.
Do you shop on Amazon? Do you have any affinity cards? You don't have to register or pass a background check to buy groceries either but you can bet King Soopers and Safeway are keeping track of what you buy if you have one of their affinity cards. Same goes for Starbucks or any other business -- MOST businesses I know like to keep in contact with previous customers and many like to keep track of what those customers bought so they can offer them more. Amazon and Google are masters of this. It's unconstitutional overkill for ATF to demand this info but silly to think the business wouldn't have a list of customers.
I'm still bothered by the description of the product. It sounds like an artificial evasion of the law and I wonder if they received or even sought a ruling from ATF before selling them as 80% receivers. If they got a letter in their favor before selling these then this is really overkill.
Bailey Guns
03-14-2014, 07:44
I have slightly more respect for the ATF than I do for the TSA. Slightly.
From what I can gather, ATF is accusing Ares of making polymer lowers then filling in the lower with a different polymer, creating a lower then making it an 80% lower.
Ares says they make the filings first then mold polymer around the fillings keeping it as an 80% lower and never completing the lower.
Ares is not the manufacturer of the lowers. They just sell them. EP Armory is the manufacturer. EP was also raided by the ATF.
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/03/daniel-zimmerman/ares-armor-holds-atf-raid-now/#more-303849
OneGuy67
03-14-2014, 12:38
At the last Tanner show, there was a guy selling these lowers in a kit. The polymer felt flimsy to me at the mag well, but it was an interesting concept. The trigger group area was a different color polymer and with the included bit, you just removed the different colored polymer with it until it was gone and you allegedly had the correct dimensions. I'm no expert (hell, I'm not even a novice) on polymers or how one would go about producing such a lower in that fashion, but I can see how someone might think they made the lower, then filled in the area with a different color as a means to produce this product.
From a manufacturing standpoint the atfs case doesnt make sense.
colorider
03-14-2014, 13:36
" I'm no expert (hell, I'm not even a novice) on polymers or how one would go about producing such a lower in that fashion, but I can see how someone might think they made the lower, then filled in the area with a different color as a means to produce this product."
Very interesting thought as the "lower" has already been produced. A fully completed one. Basically produced a lower, filled it, then claim its an 80% lower.
With that in mind any lower could be filled with wax, polymer, etc and be called an 80%. So could a company such as spikes make an aluminum lower, fill it with polymer and call it an 80%. Customer wood only have to remove the polymer. Just as the above lowers.
Just some thoughts. I have no clue about 80% rules and regs
kidicarus13
03-14-2014, 13:40
At the last Tanner show, there was a guy selling these lowers in a kit. The polymer felt flimsy to me at the mag well, but it was an interesting concept. The trigger group area was a different color polymer and with the included bit, you just removed the different colored polymer with it until it was gone and you allegedly had the correct dimensions. I'm no expert (hell, I'm not even a novice) on polymers or how one would go about producing such a lower in that fashion, but I can see how someone might think they made the lower, then filled in the area with a different color as a means to produce this product.
Ahhh, I get it now. Interesting concept. I guess depending on how the multi-colored 80% lower is initially manufactured, I can understand ATF's concern. I don't agree with ATF harassing folks but that goes without saying.
Didnt read whole thread, but in regards to the filling the lower in after the fact. Article I read said they claim the center firing pin block is made first and rest built upon that? #7 . http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/03/daniel-zimmerman/ares-armor-holds-atf-raid-now/
Course I suppose that could be wordplay since that would still depending on how they do it still amount to the same as a lower and filling it back in.
clodhopper
03-14-2014, 15:17
Here is a vid showing how this dude finished off an EP. It gives you an idea of how it is arranged.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxcSlOVeXlQ
The white piece is a waffle and the outer back fills the spaces. It gives you warning on how deep you are when milling. I guess technically you could reverse it and fill with white, but I cannot think of how that mold would work.
Course I suppose that could be wordplay since that would still depending on how they do it still amount to the same as a lower and filling it back in.
If I have a small piece of aluminum - just a 3"x2" block and I put that in the middle of a form that turns out 80% uppers (think filling a mold - not milling out from a billet block). Did I ever manufacture a complete lower? Lets say this small block inst square anymore - but it has some pegs (still aluminium) stick out of it in certain directions. I put it in the middle of the same mold and fill it up with aluminum - have I made a complete lower? Now take it one more -- that same piece of aluminum with the pegs is a different color than the aluminium I am going to use to fill the mold. When I fill the mold have I created a complete lower? You can see the two distinct colors - one looks like an odd square with some cylindrical rods coming out of it, the other color looks EXACTLY like a completed lower.
Chemically the two different colors are the same material - they are bonded at the molecular level. So how is it that the piece that is one color is any different from the piece that is another color?
Bailey Guns
03-14-2014, 17:33
^^ I think you would've lost the average ATF agent at, "If I have a small piece of aluminum...".
randoval
03-15-2014, 16:07
Just came across this on Instagram
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=atf%20breaks%20into%20ares%20 armor&sm=1
Bailey Guns
03-15-2014, 16:10
I feel safer...
How long do cell phone cameras have to be around before people stop taking vertical videos?
Hoping mods move this to gd
kidicarus13
03-15-2014, 17:03
I guess the injunction didn't work.
ChunkyMonkey
03-15-2014, 17:08
Direct link to the video??
ChunkyMonkey
03-15-2014, 17:14
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gsmlJSpWvk
ChunkyMonkey
03-15-2014, 17:24
Thanks mod!
Rooskibar03
03-15-2014, 20:19
So when do we starts shooting? [AR15]
(And yes I'm being snarky)
streetglideok
03-15-2014, 20:31
It starts with harassing people that are on the fringe of acceptance, then progressively moves to more mainstream people.
BPTactical
03-16-2014, 08:18
Things just became crystal clear on this issue:
https://www.ar-15.co/threads/128071-Remember-when?p=1560243#post1560243
This is a sad thing. More people should learn history.
Here is a vid showing how this dude finished off an EP. It gives you an idea of how it is arranged.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxcSlOVeXlQ
The white piece is a waffle and the outer back fills the spaces. It gives you warning on how deep you are when milling. I guess technically you could reverse it and fill with white, but I cannot think of how that mold would work.
I hate to be a killjoy, but slide to 4:00 into the video and watch carefully. At that point the machinist has milled out a fraction of the FCG pocket down to the pocket floor to "release" the filled-in part from its dovetail joints with the FCG-pocket floor. He then uses a screwdriver to separate the white filled-in pocket from the lower. calguns.net has a thread on this.
kidicarus13
03-17-2014, 09:18
http://www.eparmory.com/Lower-Receivers-s/1819.htm
I wonder if they'll ever be able to sell these again?
10mm-man
03-17-2014, 09:44
If I have a small piece of aluminum - just a 3"x2" block and I put that in the middle of a form that turns out 80% uppers (think filling a mold - not milling out from a billet block). Did I ever manufacture a complete lower? Lets say this small block inst square anymore - but it has some pegs (still aluminium) stick out of it in certain directions. I put it in the middle of the same mold and fill it up with aluminum - have I made a complete lower? Now take it one more -- that same piece of aluminum with the pegs is a different color than the aluminium I am going to use to fill the mold. When I fill the mold have I created a complete lower? You can see the two distinct colors - one looks like an odd square with some cylindrical rods coming out of it, the other color looks EXACTLY like a completed lower.
Chemically the two different colors are the same material - they are bonded at the molecular level. So how is it that the piece that is one color is any different from the piece that is another color?
Instead of an all poly lower, how about; I take a billet, cut the trigger control out, then fill it with a poly substance (easy removal later); I will then finish the lower. At no point has it ever been a "Complete" lower. Should work! Anyone want some 80% poly filled lowers??
mtnrider
03-17-2014, 10:00
For those on facebook you should like Ares page. Pretty funny stuff they have been posting. They have taken video stills from the raid and been captioning them with some pretty funny stuff. Making fun of the ATF "Operators".
Probably not helping their cause as far as the ATF is concerned but funny just the same. They appear ready to fight this all the way and are not backing down at all.
Instead of an all poly lower, how about; I take a billet, cut the trigger control out, then fill it with a poly substance (easy removal later); I will then finish the lower. At no point has it ever been a "Complete" lower. Should work! Anyone want some 80% poly filled lowers??
Sarcasm detected?
clodhopper
03-17-2014, 10:18
I hate to be a killjoy, but slide to 4:00 into the video and watch carefully. At that point the machinist has milled out a fraction of the FCG pocket down to the pocket floor to "release" the filled-in part from its dovetail joints with the FCG-pocket floor. He then uses a screwdriver to separate the white filled-in pocket from the lower. calguns.net has a thread on this.
A difference in the plastics will provide the limited bond between the two. It says nothing of which part came first. You would need to explain to me how to mold the outer portion (the lower) such that the cross bands would be created for the white insert to be injected around them. From a manufacturing standpoint, it doesn't make any sense to mold the outer portion first.
10mm-man
03-17-2014, 10:21
Sarcasm detected?
No, I didn't write it in a sarcastic tone. I wanted to see what the reply's would be; now that it was taken sarcastic, that gives me some indication that it might not be OK to do 80% this way. lol
It would not be OK because a little heat would remove the poly without damaging the AL.
Much like if the two plastics in OP react to different chemicals and it is possible to dissolve the filler. At some point the work required is too small and the ATF gets to make all the rules.
ZERO THEORY
03-17-2014, 11:08
How long do cell phone cameras have to be around before people stop taking vertical videos?
I think about this every single time someone shoots a video in portrait mode.
I heard some guys talking about this raod on the Ham radio this morning. One of them apparently purchased theblower and was worried about the ATF showing up to collect.
RblDiver
03-17-2014, 11:19
So, this story is totally unrelated (about the French forcing half their drivers to stay at home one day), but the line from their transport minister is chilling, as it's what many gov't bureaucrats want to say I think:
"This is a public health problem ... we thank everyone who fell into line," Transport Minister Frederic Cuvillier said. (emphasis added)
http://news.yahoo.com/france-curbs-paris-car-drivers-combat-dangerous-smog-120737659--sector.html;_ylt=AwrBJR5dICdTvC0AO03QtDMD
Imagine the ATF from this story doing the same. Like I said, chilling.
I heard some guys talking about this raod on the Ham radio this morning. One of them apparently purchased theblower and was worried about the ATF showing up to collect.
I bought some blocks of aluminum from these guys. But I gave them all away as presents. They make really good paperweights for desks.
Instead of an all poly lower, how about; I take a billet, cut the trigger control out, then fill it with a poly substance (easy removal later); I will then finish the lower. At no point has it ever been a "Complete" lower. Should work! Anyone want some 80% poly filled lowers??
Just my 2 cents, but if you want to remain legal, you should probably market only 79% lowers at this point. LOL.
funkymonkey1111
03-17-2014, 15:16
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqjYEFIwUT8&sns=em
ChunkyMonkey
03-17-2014, 15:40
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqjYEFIwUT8&sns=em
+1000!!!
Whats it going to take before the BATF-E is disbanded. Dimitrious said it best - and I'm paraphrasing here, "The 80% process is not a loophole to gun laws, the word loophole implies that something illegal may be done through a legal means. The only loophole here is all the exsisting gun laws that provide a loophole around the Second Amendment."
<MADDOG>
03-17-2014, 17:49
It might be me, but this seems to be overkill...Even the cop looks disgusted.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRQ3Yk-th0E
No, I didn't write it in a sarcastic tone. I wanted to see what the reply's would be; now that it was taken sarcastic, that gives me some indication that it might not be OK to do 80% this way. lol
Merl hit it spot on. https://www.ar-15.co/images/icons/icon3.png The argument used against you would be that any method that allows the shape of the pocket to be precisely recovered without re-machining it with the same level of precision required to do the initial machining step would not be acceptable -- The pocket cannot be precisely recoverable by use of heat, cold, solvents, popping it out with a fork, hitting it with a hammer, voodoo, alien ray gun, whatever.
I would avoid anything that looks like a "sacrificial mold" or a filler.
Merl hit it spot on. https://www.ar-15.co/images/icons/icon3.png The argument used against you would be that any method that allows the shape of the pocket to be precisely recovered without re-machining it with the same level of precision required to do the initial machining step would not be acceptable -- The pocket cannot be precisely recoverable by use of heat, cold, solvents, popping it out with a fork, hitting it with a hammer, voodoo, alien ray gun, whatever.
I would avoid anything that looks like a "sacrificial mold" or a filler.
That doesn't make sense, as drilling it out with a drill press sure isn't anywhere near as precise as machining.
Also, I watched the video and am confused on what is going on here. I didn't see a single mother or child around in the video, so what was the ATF even doing there?
That doesn't make sense, as drilling it out with a drill press sure isn't anywhere near as precise as machining.
Fair enough, I wasn't very clear. I meant removing the filler from the pocket must be just as hard to do as machining the pocket in the first place. Otherwise you have helped the user achieve a level of precision he could not achieve had you not "pre-machined" the pocket for him..
You can: fill the aluminum pocket from 10 mm-man's example with aluminum and anneal it so the filler material in the pocket diffuses into the wall of the lower. The effect is that the pocket shape is now gone forever, and it is as if the pocket was never there. Removing the filler from the pocket will be just as hard to do as machining the pocket in the first place.
You cannot: Fill the pocket from 10 mm-man's example with parrafin. 3 minutes in the oven would melt the parrafin and recover the precise shape of the machined pocket. Merl made this same point with with polymer -- melt it in the oven.
You cannot: fill the pocket from 10 mm-man's example with xyz super-hard alloy that dissolves in a chemical that does not affect the aluminum. A few minutes in a chemical bath, and you recover the originally machined pocket. (Merl again)
You cannot: create a sacrificial mold of the pocket out of sand and mold molten metal around it to get the complete lower (like they make aluminum intake manifolds). Vibrate the sand out and you recover the original shape of the pocket.
You cannot: Machine a complete lower, and then fill the pocket with anything. ATF has already ruled on this which is why EP is saying their process molds the lower around a mold of the pocket.
Hope that helps clarify things....
I understand the concept, but I feel like you are missing the mark. The thing that all of your examples have in common is that the lower must be completed first, then refilled. Once the lower is complete, it is complete, regardless of if you fill all the holes back up again. The argument is whether they create the inner mold first, then mold the rest around the first piece or not. The company argues that they do the inside first, then mold the outside around the first piece. This means that at no point is there ever a completed lower present. If you just filled the second mold, it would just spit out a uniform 80% lower all of one material, so the company couldn't even hand out completed lowers out the back door for example.
I don't think this has to do with the requirements of the end user to complete the lower at all. Only if the manufacturer ever has a complete lower in their possession at any point in time.
Irving,
Agree with you assessment that you cannot fill-in a completed lower. ATF has already ruled on this.
10-mm-man had a clever idea to machine a pocket in an unfinished billet, fill the pocket with polymer, then finish the billet. This is a nogo in the examples listed.
You are correct. EP knows they cannot complete a lower and then fill the pocket, so they argued that they created a sacrificial mold of the pocket in white polymer, and molded the lower around it in black. You dremel out the sacrificial mold (white polymer) until you are left with only black lower. I really don't want to comment more on the likely success or failure of this approach. Great idea, but IMHO they are up against a hard sell.
...ATF has already ruled on this ...
I do not recognize ATF's Judicial Authority. Even as they are technically an illegally appointed part of the Executive Branch of government.
ChunkyMonkey
03-19-2014, 14:50
Update..
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/03/19/gun-parts-store-owner-claims-atf-tried-to-make-a-secret-deal-for-the-names-of-his-customers/
Gun Parts Store Owner Claims ATF Tried to Make a Secret Deal for the Names of His Customers
milwaukeeshaker
03-20-2014, 09:34
Methinks Aloha has tasted the koolaid.
Do you shop on Amazon? Do you have any affinity cards? You don't have to register or pass a background check to buy groceries either but you can bet King Soopers and Safeway are keeping track of what you buy if you have one of their affinity cards. Same goes for Starbucks or any other business -- MOST businesses I know like to keep in contact with previous customers and many like to keep track of what those customers bought so they can offer them more. Amazon and Google are masters of this. It's unconstitutional overkill for ATF to demand this info but silly to think the business wouldn't have a list of customers.
I'm still bothered by the description of the product. It sounds like an artificial evasion of the law and I wonder if they received or even sought a ruling from ATF before selling them as 80% receivers. If they got a letter in their favor before selling these then this is really overkill.
milwaukeeshaker
03-20-2014, 09:36
F 'em both!!
I have slightly more respect for the ATF than I do for the TSA. Slightly.
Colorado Osprey
03-20-2014, 11:25
Deleted
Looks like Polymer80 stopped producing their (one piece) polymer lower & jig product to get an LOD. Claims no contact with ATF.
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014/03/19/polymer80-proactively-stops-selling-polymer-80-receivers/
Aloha_Shooter
03-21-2014, 07:21
Methinks Aloha has tasted the koolaid.
You can "think" all you want. Real thinking people can decry both the ATF's unconstitutional actions in demanding customer lists and a product that looks like the firearms equivalent of synthetic Ecstasy, specifically and knowingly designed to violate the intent of the law. As my mother used to say, two wrongs don't make a right.
Looks like Polymer80 stopped producing their (one piece) polymer lower & jig product to get an LOD. Claims no contact with ATF.
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014/03/19/polymer80-proactively-stops-selling-polymer-80-receivers/
Pussies
funkymonkey1111
03-21-2014, 09:54
so does anyone know if the local 80% producers (at least high plains CNC and Watkins tool come to mind) take down any information during a sale?
ChunkyMonkey
03-21-2014, 10:00
so does anyone know if the local 80% producers (at least high plains CNC and Watkins tool come to mind) take down any information during a sale?
Not if its a cash deal.
Pussies
I actually disagree. They just kicked the ATF right in the balls by posting that. The ATF has raided an FFL, tried to goad them into a secret deal, but hasn't even approached the manufacturer of the product that supposedly started all of this? That indicates to me that this raid is about something else entirely (enter Bert's thread). Area Arms should be throwing a fit right now and contacting every attorney they can find.
68Charger
03-21-2014, 12:57
Any thoughts if this is related to the latest push against scary polymer guns that are undetectable?
If it has no metal embedded in it, they could say it's designed to create an undetectable firearm.
(not saying that I would agree, just thinking of the evil "assault" feature du jour)
Any thoughts if this is related to the latest push against scary polymer guns that are undetectable?
If it has no metal embedded in it, they could say it's designed to create an undetectable firearm.
(not saying that I would agree, just thinking of the evil "assault" feature du jour)
I do not think so, i think the ATF are just freaking out because someone figure out how to follow their rules but allow someone to finish a lower with limited knowledge and hand tools.
Polymer80 was just another start up during the panic, a lot of those start up's never gained traction and have already bowed out of the game. We have not heard of any other polymer lower being targeted, only these ones molded around the insert. I think Polymer80 made a genius move and bowed out of the game but left the door open to start back up if another panic happens.
68Charger
03-21-2014, 15:18
I do not think so, i think the ATF are just freaking out because someone figure out how to follow their rules but allow someone to finish a lower with limited knowledge and hand tools.
Polymer80 was just another start up during the panic, a lot of those start up's never gained traction and have already bowed out of the game. We have not heard of any other polymer lower being targeted, only these ones molded around the insert. I think Polymer80 made a genius move and bowed out of the game but left the door open to start back up if another panic happens.
The other thing I noticed they are doing differently than other 80% lowers that have an ATF determination letter is marking the position of the selector and hammer and trigger pins... to your point, this makes it too easy- you don't need knowledge or a jig to complete it.
Just pointing out things that are different than the EP Lowers vs other 80% lowers I've seen.
Moral of the story- get a determination letter before selling.
clodhopper
03-21-2014, 15:34
this makes it too easy
I don't remember seeing a "difficulty" requirement. Suggesting the ATF is expecting that an 80% completion to be difficult to reduce the likelihood that a citizen would bother doing it is projecting. That may be exactly what the ATF hopes, but it is not a requirement of a product.
The manufacturer can put all kinds of directions all over the 80%er and still be within the requirements. The holes are not drilled.
Circuits
03-21-2014, 15:38
I don't remember seeing a "difficulty" requirement. Suggesting the ATF is expecting that an 80% completion to be difficult to reduce the likelihood that a citizen would bother doing it is projecting. That may be exactly what the ATF hopes, but it is not a requirement of a product.
It's within the ATF's administrative purview to determine what is and is not a firearm. They have classified as firearms metal "80%" receivers which had the FCG and other holes indicated but not drilled through, and the EP 80s do indeed indicate the FCG well holes - trigger, hammer and selector axes.
68Charger
03-21-2014, 15:39
I don't remember seeing a "difficulty" requirement. Suggesting the ATF is expecting that an 80% completion to be difficult to reduce the likelihood that a citizen would bother doing it is projecting. That may be exactly what the ATF hopes, but it is not a requirement of a product.
The manufacturer can put all kinds of directions all over the 80%er and still be within the requirements. The holes are not drilled.
I just seem to remember a previous denial of "determination" letter by someone based on having the pin locations marked- that's all...
I agree it's not entirely about "making it easy", but it's about at what point is enough complete that the ATF considers it a firearm... 80% is a marketing term- it's not a percentage of actual completion.
Remember when the 80% lowers required cutting/tapping the threads for the buffer tube, and broach/mill out the magwell?
buffalobo
03-21-2014, 15:44
Allowing ATF to "consider" anything is the primary problem.
Lobbed from my electronic ball and chain.
68Charger
03-21-2014, 15:54
Found a reference to the documentation: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=317669
Specifically: 42487
and "Again, note that no dimples may be present for any of the three FCG holes."
Just for the record, I'm not defending the ATF's "right to exist", just providing history and just where this may have gone afoul of previous rulings...
So why wouldn't the ATF have raided the manufacturer, or even approached them?
clodhopper
03-21-2014, 16:52
I am pretty sure ATF raided EP that manufactured the offending lowers. Just didn't get as much air time as the Ares raid. Probably because Ares thrives on making a stink even when they say they don't. Don't get me wrong, I applaud Ares efforts.
buffalobo
03-21-2014, 16:59
Looks like Polymer80 stopped producing their (one piece) polymer lower & jig product to get an LOD. Claims no contact with ATF.
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014/03/19/polymer80-proactively-stops-selling-polymer-80-receivers/
Manufacturer claims no contact with ATF.
Lobbed from my electronic ball and chain.
68Charger
03-21-2014, 17:17
I am pretty sure ATF raided EP that manufactured the offending lowers. Just didn't get as much air time as the Ares raid. Probably because Ares thrives on making a stink even when they say they don't. Don't get me wrong, I applaud Ares efforts.
They did: http://www.thebangswitch.com/ep-armory-raided-by-the-atf/
Manufacturer claims no contact with ATF.
Lobbed from my electronic ball and chain.
You're confusing 2 different 80% lower companies... Polymer80 decided to halt production of their >DIFFERENT< design lower until they get a determination letter from the ATF...
EP Lowers was raided, and has the design with 2 different polymers and the markings for the FCG pins... Ares was one of their distributors.
Polymer80's design is only 1 polymer, and there are no such markings for the FCG pin holes.
Ahhh, thank you for clearing that up.
It's within the ATF's administrative purview to determine what is and is not a firearm.
Remember - this is the same government agency that stated, in a determination letter, that an ordinary 14" SHOESTRING, is in fact a fully-automatic machine gun. They have no requirement or desire to be logical or consistent in their findings.
42491
Moral of the story- get a determination letter before selling.
A determination letter is utterly and completely worthless. The BATFE has, can, and will change their mind on a whim -- and then prosecute manfs who were making their product under that determination. There is no real rhyme or reason here (that I --nor a bunch of high priced lawyers -- can determine). If you make the ATF angry you will have your arse handed to you, and there is damn little you can do about it. Legally or otherwise.
Bill Akins, a Florida inventor, said the ATF initially approved his Akins Accelerator to increase the firing speed of semi-automatic rifles to simulate fully automatics, but later ruled the device illegal — leaving him with $500,000 worth of useless inventory.
In 2008, he filed a lawsuit against the ATF claiming the new ruling was arbitrary and capricious and violated his right to due process, an argument rejected by district and appellate courts.
“An ATF letter opinion is worthless,” he said. “It is not law, and it can be changed at the whim of a bureaucrat.”
Larry Keane, general counsel for the National Shooting Sports Foundation, said letter rulings can be “all over the map,” particularly on the point in the manufacturing process when a piece of metal becomes a firearm subject to federal law.
He said the rulings are determined on “an ad hoc basis” and that it is nearly impossible to comply with the law with no clear definition from the ATF and varying interpretations from the courts.
Found a reference to the documentation: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=317669
Specifically: 42487
and "Again, note that no dimples may be present for any of the three FCG holes."
Just for the record, I'm not defending the ATF's "right to exist", just providing history and just where this may have gone afoul of previous rulings...
It annoys me that they can change their "rules" and the whole process is subjective. Just another reason to dislike alphabet soup agencies i guess.
MarkUSMC88
03-22-2014, 17:31
It annoys me that they can change their "rules" and the whole process is subjective. Just another reason to dislike alphabet soup agencies i guess.
Point of semantics:
People act subjectively when the standard is not based on a standard (an objective standard). Agencies act arbitrarily when (1) they make decisions based on no standards or (2) the agency makes different outcomes/decisions from case to case based on the same standards.
{ When the range becomes two-way, choose between being the fastest, most accurate shot or the fastest to cover... }
The other thing I noticed they are doing differently than other 80% lowers that have an ATF determination letter is marking the position of the selector and hammer and trigger pins... to your point, this makes it too easy- you don't need knowledge or a jig to complete it.
Just pointing out things that are different than the EP Lowers vs other 80% lowers I've seen.
Moral of the story- get a determination letter before selling.
Point of semantics:
People act subjectively when the standard is not based on a standard (an objective standard). Agencies act arbitrarily when (1) they make decisions based on no standards or (2) the agency makes different outcomes/decisions from case to case based on the same standards.
{ When the range becomes two-way, choose between being the fastest, most accurate shot or the fastest to cover... }
More semantics:
They are being subjective in their reasoning and arbitrary in their decision. That said the 4 ATF letters in the link are both arbitrary and subjective but i do not feel the need to argue semantics on a gun forum. I would rather have a discussion on what meaning of this is, [flamingo] , and when is the proper time to use it in a post.
kidicarus13
06-02-2014, 07:50
Latest from Ares Armor... http://aresarmor.com/store/NewsArticle/May-29-2014-Ares-Vs-ATF?utm_source=2Jun14&utm_campaign=2JUN14-DOsomething&utm_medium=email
Ya, part of me says "Go for it". If you are legal you are legal. The other... More rational side says "Never make yourself a challenge, somebody will take you up on it". Here, that somebody is not just the 800Lb gorilla, it's his big brother the 1000Lb one. I just hope he has all his ducks in a row. ANY one of them ducks steps out of line and he is screwed. This will be one to watch with the result being a possible repeal of the ability to have an 80% lower, which is not the intended outcome here I am sure. The problem is "they" are all scared to death of the glue-it-together gun that we will be able to make in our homes.... Soon. Totally untraceable (easily destructible), able to be mass produced... In a home.... For cheap. This may be poking a bear about polymer guns with the result being we lose the ability to have ANY 80% lowers at all.
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