View Full Version : 5.45x39 banned from importation
Some dude in Arizona started selling AK-74 pistols
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=403279623
which means that it 5.45 is now a steel core pistol round, which is banned from importation by the ATF. All surplus 5.45 will no longer be allowed into the US. Copes Dist and Aim Surplus have confirmed this. Looks like it's out of stock everywhere now, and we're pretty much fucked.
https://www.thebangswitch.com/import-ban-on-7n6-5-45x39/
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1607542_Yeager_posted_the_5_45_import_ban_letter_o n_his_FB___.html&page=4#i46452288
mtnrider
03-28-2014, 22:25
Great, I now have a useless rifle. I wondered what happened today. I was watching some 5.45 ammo and trying to decide whether to buy (or how much the wife would hate me if I pulled the trigger). It was selling at about 2 cases per hour. Next thing I know it went from 1600 cases in stock to out of stock in minutes.
Reportedly it's just 7n6 surplus. Wolf and the like are still available. But no more cheap stuff, the biggest advantage of the AK platforms.
mtnrider
03-28-2014, 22:36
Yeah, I Just bought a AK74 because of the cheap ammo. Silly me.
I had been kicking around the idea about a 5.45x39 upper, but this makes it easier for me.
BPTactical
03-29-2014, 06:19
Another swing of the axe
osok-308
03-29-2014, 06:42
I had been kicking around the idea about a 5.45x39 upper, but this makes it easier for me.
This just solidified my choice for which AK caliber to go with.
Yeah, the only real benefit of a 5.45 AK was the cost of ammo. I might sell mine and maybe get another in .223. If it's going to cost the same, might as well shoot reloadable brass.
BPTactical
03-29-2014, 07:05
How long until they link 5.56 and 7.62 x 39 to pistols?
Most 5.56 is domestically produced, so that won't be an issue. 7.62, who knows? I've heard the reason this only applies to 5.45 is because of the ratio of jacket to core. 7.62 is a larger bullet, so there is comparably more core to jacket in the bullet...
Great-Kazoo
03-29-2014, 07:45
How long until they link 5.56 and 7.62 x 39 to pistols?
1993 when the Olympic OA-93 pistol debuted. The chi-com 223 was stopped (IIRC) about 89-90 In 94 no rilfe caliber pistol could weigh more then 50 oz, thanks to the AWB and knee jerk liberals [panic]
IMO the .gov should BAN rifle caliber pistols, AFTER they eliminate SBR's from NFA status.
Most 5.56 is domestically produced, so that won't be an issue. 7.62, who knows? I've heard the reason this only applies to 5.45 is because of the ratio of jacket to core. 7.62 is a larger bullet, so there is comparably more core to jacket in the bullet...
I'm sure this is exactly why.
(17) (A) The term “ammunition” means ammunition or cartridge cases, primers, bullets, or propellent powder designed for use in any firearm.
(B) The term “armor piercing ammunition” means— (i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or
(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.
Its not banned from import. Misleading title. It only bans the cheap 7n6 armor peircing.
Just like the 7.62 steel core.
Wolf and silver bear will still be here.
Wonder if the guy who built and was selling the pistol was one of Bloomies crony's??
GunsRBadMMMMKay
03-29-2014, 12:12
I never got the validity of calling them armor piercing rounds for pistols, considering most rifle calibers will penetrate soft body armor......and they ban them on the pretense that they will be "cop killer" rounds and defeat police body armor. They just play off peoples fear and ignorance to gain more anti- ground. I realize there are some of the rounds that are true ap, but the argument used to ban "ap" rounds for pistols isn't to protect apc's LOL.
funkymonkey1111
03-29-2014, 12:41
it's amazing--usac sales had 1.7million rounds on thursday. sold out yesterday. unbelievable.
IMO the .gov should BAN rifle caliber pistols, AFTER they eliminate SBR's from NFA status.
A better and more logical solution is stop trying to classify guns. A gun is a gun is a gun. SBR, SBS, riffle shotgun, revolver, pistol, ect... There is no logic to requiring a tax stamp for a gun with a short barrel just because it has a stock. Why is there even a need for the stamp? Because it is concealable? More concealable than a handgun? Stupid politicians have no f-ing clue how things work.
Zundfolge
03-29-2014, 13:50
A better and more logical solution is stop trying to classify guns. A gun is a gun is a gun. SBR, SBS, riffle shotgun, revolver, pistol, ect... There is no logic to requiring a tax stamp for a gun with a short barrel just because it has a stock. Why is there even a need for the stamp? Because it is concealable? More concealable than a handgun? Stupid politicians have no f-ing clue how things work.
It makes even less sense when you look at the historical reason for the SBR and SBS laws to begin with. Originally the 1934 National Firearms Act was going to include handguns and treat them like machine guns (registration and $200 tax stamp), but at the last minute (in order to gain passage) they removed handguns completely from the bill. The point of the SBR and SBS restrictions was to prevent people from getting around the laws against unregistered, untaxed handguns by cutting down shotguns or rifles. Frankly the entire SBR/SBS section of the statute should have been removed with the bits removed about handguns.
kidicarus13
03-29-2014, 22:30
And paying $200 for a tax stamp to silence a firearm although not silence it enough to actually keep from the shooter or anyone else from hearing the shot. Crazy.
Great-Kazoo
03-29-2014, 22:35
And paying $200 for a tax stamp to silence a firearm although not silence it enough to actually keep from the shooter or anyone else from hearing the shot. Crazy.
My 22 lr bolts are mosquito quiet. It's for the environment.
UrbanWolf
03-30-2014, 00:22
There was a huge panic buying on AK Files, glad I don't have a 74.
mtnrider
03-30-2014, 09:38
There was a huge panic buying on AK Files, glad I don't have a 74.
I literally just bought one 2 months ago. Was wanting something I could shoot cheaper then the 47 or 5.56. So pissed off right now [Rant1]
UrbanWolf
03-30-2014, 10:06
I literally just bought one 2 months ago. Was wanting something I could shoot cheaper then the 47 or 5.56. So pissed off right now [Rant1]
Disband the JBT who caused your anger.
I literally just bought one 2 months ago. Was wanting something I could shoot cheaper then the 47 or 5.56. So pissed off right now [Rant1]
http://www.sgammo.com/catalog/rifle-ammunition/545x39
25-30 cents a round. Not as cheap as the surplus, but still about half the cost of .223
http://www.sgammo.com/catalog/rifle-ammunition/545x39
25-30 cents a round. Not as cheap as the surplus, but still about half the cost of .223
http://www.laxammo.com/ammunition/5.56-ammo/new-5.56-m-193-55gr-fmj-%22nato-specs%221000rds/50-792 some brass 5.56 for $0.37/round.
funkymonkey1111
03-30-2014, 13:04
http://www.sgammo.com/catalog/rifle-ammunition/545x39
25-30 cents a round. Not as cheap as the surplus, but still about half the cost of .223
can buy .223 steel cased for 27 cents per round all day long. 37 cents for brass easy.
sportbikeco
03-30-2014, 13:44
Tin foil hat bs.
Some guy putting a kit he built on GB does not do shit.
Chinese ammo imports were not stopped because they are armor piercing it was politics.
They sell plenty of .308 and 5.56 "pistols" and this ammo is available.
http://www.laxammo.com/ammunition/5.56-ammo/new-5.56-m-193-55gr-fmj-%22nato-specs%221000rds/50-792 some brass 5.56 for $0.37/round.
I don't trust Federal anymore. Last few boxes I got (back in January) had tons of rounds that had to be struck multiple times to fire.
Tin foil hat bs.
Some guy putting a kit he built on GB does not do shit.
Chinese ammo imports were not stopped because they are armor piercing it was politics.
They sell plenty of .308 and 5.56 "pistols" and this ammo is available.7n6 5.45 is not chinese.
It's not the ammo, it's ammo with Armor piercing core.
Circuits
03-30-2014, 15:56
It's not even really armor piercing - just exceeds some silly formula Congress pulled out its ass to try to keep the so-called "cop killer" KTN or some such pistol ammo off the streets in the late 1980s. About the same time they passed the "undetectable firearm" law cause they were a-scared of Glocks and other poly-framed pistols.
It's not even really armor piercing - just exceeds some silly formula Congress pulled out its ass to try to keep the so-called "cop killer" KTN or some such pistol ammo off the streets in the late 1980s. About the same time they passed the "undetectable firearm" law cause they were a-scared of Glocks and other poly-framed pistols.
And we saw last fall that nobody is willing to even stand back and simply let this silly crap expire.
Aloha_Shooter
03-30-2014, 17:28
Gotta love the irony in the Gunbroker post:
Most manufacturers will not build these as they erroneously believe that 5.45 pistols could get the inexpensive 7N6 Russian surplus ammunition banned from import.
Treating rifle ammunition or equipment as if it were for pistols just because some moron built a pistol in that caliber is ridiculous and I hate my rifles being handicapped because someone wants to prove how much testosterone he has by having a "pistol" in a rifle caliber. Hawaii "only" bans so-called "high capacity" magazines for pistols, not rifles, but ARs are restricted to 10 round magazines just like pistols because AR-platform pistols exist. I don't know what they do about the Mare's Leg line that was revived recently.
wctriumph
03-30-2014, 19:21
The best ammo I ever shot out of an AK or SKS was the copper washed Chinese steel core stuff. It shot through just about anything and was cheap: 750 round tin for $34.95. When some company imported an AK in pistol form the gov' banned the importation of all steel core 7.62X39 ammo. I hope no one produces a pistol in .30-06, I like my milsurp magnet attracting ammo.
TEA
III
GunsRBadMMMMKay
03-30-2014, 19:47
I don't think you have to worry, IIRC 30-06 was one of the rounds specifically exempted in said bureaucratic bs.
Can someone educate me on the definition of 22 cal and the actual caliber of a 5.45x39?
According to wikipedia the bullet diameter is actually 5.6mm. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5.45%C3%9739mm . 1 inch is exactly 25.4mm http://www.elivermore.com/conversions.htm , so 5.6mm is equivalent to 0.220472 inches (is that the caliber? or is caliber defined from the rife bore?).
From statute...
(17) (A) The term “ammunition” means ammunition or cartridge cases, primers, bullets, or propellent powder designed for use in any firearm.
(B) The term “armor piercing ammunition” means— (i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or
(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.
So now 2 questions.
1) My google-fu may be bad, but is looks to me that the actual diameter of the 7N6 is less than that of a 22lr bullet. Does that mean it's less than a 22 cal round?
2) If 22 cal is defined by the strict diameter of the bullet, then it is less than 1/2 or 1/1000 of an inch over the line. Are russian tolerances loose enough that some fall to the other side of the line?
Please set me straight...
(edit) Never mind... I missed the other definition of AP. Still need education on caliber.....
(B) The term “armor piercing ammunition” means— (i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or
GunsRBadMMMMKay
03-30-2014, 22:39
Here...an old thread off "the high road" forum, but it had what I believe to be the relevant info:
"Max VelocityJune 16, 2007, 11:42 AM
5.56 millimeters = 0.218897638 inches, but that is the BORE diameter which is the diameter measured at top of the lands. Bullet diameter for 5.56x45mm is actually .224" or 5.6896 millimeters which is barrel groove diameter.
5.45 millimeters = 0.214566929 inches, but the nominal bullet diameter for 5.45x39mm is 5.62mm (.221")
1 millimeter = 0.0393700787 inches
1 inch = 25.4 millimeters"
Thanks! Never thought of diameter at lands vs diameter in grooves. Makes sense now...
afraid not tin foil bs this time. its legit.
Tin foil hat bs.
Some guy putting a kit he built on GB does not do shit.
Chinese ammo imports were not stopped because they are armor piercing it was politics.
They sell plenty of .308 and 5.56 "pistols" and this ammo is available.
funkymonkey1111
03-31-2014, 03:50
Thanks! Never thought of diameter at lands vs diameter in grooves. Makes sense now...
I'll educate you: the ATF does whatever it pleases, and couldn't give two shits what any regulation or court order says.
Wow, this sucks.
Now I can't decide if I'm happy or unhappy that I hadn't yet got around to building a 5.45x39 and stocking up some ammo.
ANADRILL
04-02-2014, 11:01
Just bought 2 cases this morning of surp, for 209$ a case..:)
Colorado Osprey
04-02-2014, 11:04
Are the AK guys going nuts that the cheap ammo is drying up? (i know just steel core).. but it was the cheapest ammo.
I'm not sure I would get an AK anytime soon, now that cheap mil surplus ammo is going to disappear
I wonder if AK pricing/values are gonna drop like a rock due to ammo pricing?
mtnrider
04-02-2014, 11:09
Just bought 2 cases this morning of surp, for 209$ a case..:)
Care to share the link? Was that shipped?
ANADRILL
04-02-2014, 11:16
Still had to pay shipping, so it worked out to 225 per 1080 rds..
SouthPaw
04-02-2014, 11:37
Care to share the link? Was that shipped?
http://www.jgsales.com/5.45x39-russian-surplus-53gr-fmj-steel-core-ammo,-1080rd-sealed-tin.-p-2940.html - 1080 rounds
http://www.jgsales.com/5.45x39-russian-surplus-53gr-fmj-steel-core-ammo,-2160rd-case.-p-62575.html - 2160 rounds
Not the best price but they haven't for roughly $229/1080 + shipping
mtnrider
04-02-2014, 12:28
http://www.jgsales.com/5.45x39-russian-surplus-53gr-fmj-steel-core-ammo,-1080rd-sealed-tin.-p-2940.html - 1080 rounds
http://www.jgsales.com/5.45x39-russian-surplus-53gr-fmj-steel-core-ammo,-2160rd-case.-p-62575.html - 2160 rounds
Not the best price but they haven't for roughly $229/1080 + shipping
Yeah, saw that. Anadrill said he got it $20 cheaper per case then that.
HoneyBadger
04-02-2014, 13:07
Yeah, saw that. Anadrill said he got it $20 cheaper per case then that.
I think he got it from Classic Arms.
mtnrider
04-02-2014, 13:10
I think he got it from Classic Arms.
They are even more. $239
ANADRILL
04-02-2014, 20:01
nope
Went by DCF Guns yesterday. Sold their last can on Sunday for $140 [facepalm]
anyone see what od supply has been selling theirs for lately? gotta be up to $500 a can by now.
electronman1729
04-05-2014, 18:19
anyone see what od supply has been selling theirs for lately? gotta be up to $500 a can by now.
They had some in 20 round packs its was like $8
Great-Kazoo
04-05-2014, 18:45
They had some in 20 round packs its was like $8
per 20 or round [ROFL2]
http://www.guns.com/2014/04/05/congressman-makes-official-inquiry-atf-ban-7n6-ammo/
funkymonkey1111
04-08-2014, 09:57
ATF Position:
http://www.atf.gov/press/releases/2014/04/040714-special-advisory-test-examination-and-classification-7n6-545x39-ammunition.html
Goodburbon
04-08-2014, 15:01
How surprising, the ATF is full of complete morons who have zero reading comprehension and insert their own idiocy in the place of common sense.
sent from my fone!
How surprising, the ATF is full of complete morons who have zero reading comprehension and insert their own idiocy in the place of common sense.
sent from my fone!
Aren't these the same people who don't think it is a violation of the NFA to put an arm brace on an AR pistol and then shoulder that arm brace just like an SBR?
I'm sorry I didn't buy more when I had the chance. If anyone is looking for some rare 7N6 about 10 years from now, please PM me in 10 years. If I haven't fired it all by then, I may have a deal for you.
How long until they link 5.56 and 7.62 x 39 to pistols? Green tip M855 is next, at least the imported stuff.
mtnrider
04-13-2014, 20:09
This guy has gone full retard..
http://www.armslist.com/posts/2887576/colorado-springs-colorado-ammo-for-sale-trade--5-45x39-7n6-1080rds
Great-Kazoo
04-13-2014, 20:17
This guy has gone full retard..
http://www.armslist.com/posts/2887576/colorado-springs-colorado-ammo-for-sale-trade--5-45x39-7n6-1080rds
Some board members sell elsewhere, to avoid embarrassing them self.
Some board members sell elsewhere, to avoid embarrassing them self.
Next price gouging argument?
Sent by a free-range electronic weasel, with no sense of personal space.
kidicarus13
04-13-2014, 21:03
Some board members sell elsewhere, to avoid embarrassing them self.
Obviously not your first day posting on COAR
ChunkyMonkey
04-13-2014, 21:09
Green tip M855 is next, at least the imported stuff.
Most are new production commercial.. not military surplus. So I dont think you'd have to worry about M855
Great-Kazoo
04-13-2014, 22:51
Obviously not your first day posting on COAR
They're on the list
http://www.thecelebritypix.com/thumb2/ANd9GcSsZE9epuxBXGq0g8U33kD8918s4BFwAVWrdOF6OmZLfO icUGxg.jpg
Circuits
04-14-2014, 11:22
Green tip M855 is next, at least the imported stuff.
M855/SS109 is exempted by law from being classified as "armor-piercing", even though it's not really, anyway. Unless they change that law, it's not subject to a bureaucratic reclassification whim. M2 .30-06, which actually is armor-piercing ammo, is also exempted by the same law.
An actual law or a designation by the AG? I don't recall anything in 921 specifically naming any round but I do recall the AG being able to grant waivers.
M855 is partially safe in that it has a steel tip and a lead core but the ATF can play word games too and they get to make the rules.
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