View Full Version : 40 S&W reloading thread
I've been saying for years that I'm going to start reloading. Well, I actually have all the components I need now to do so. I've been reading different sources and trying to find a place to start. Here is what I'll be working with initially. This is going to be pretty beginner stuff, so I apologize in advance for asking the day one stuff.
RCBS turret press
Lee dies
Mixed .40 brass
CCI small pistol primers
Accurate Arms #5
Berry's plated 180g (also have 135g plated, but I'm going to start with 180)
I'm going to start with 180g and 1.125 OAL.
Trying to set everything up to get a consistent OAL tonight and ran into some things I wanted to ask questions about.
First, while loading empty cartridges to establish a baseline OAL and get my flare where I want it, I had some bullets have some plating scrape off due to no flare. This caused an issue with the bullet, and the case. I assume that the bullet on the left is no good with the gash in the plating, even though the bottom is in tact. All the pulled bullets that didn't lose any plating, still have this heavy ring around them, are they still useable?
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-KQ0Q30ezqoU/Uzz9UBgReCI/AAAAAAAAI5E/3ljLfUKy4hU/w999-h562-no/20140403_001849_Richtone%2528HDR%2529.jpg
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-xa-0drn9e78/Uzz9pVKSMTI/AAAAAAAAI5c/11vlZA5D8RM/w999-h562-no/20140403_002016_Richtone%2528HDR%2529.jpg
I'm unsure of the brass, but the crease worries me. This picture was taken after running it through the resizing die.
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-ClWo8vBWEx4/UzzetdIRrNI/AAAAAAAAI4Q/VH30nDOJR0A/w999-h562-no/20140402_220815_Richtone%2528HDR%2529.jpg
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-Kp4fMUN0NoM/UzzephmNgOI/AAAAAAAAI4E/PoeBRq1ouEs/w999-h562-no/20140402_220759_Richtone%2528HDR%2529.jpg
Here are some measurements I took of 10 bullets, 10 cases, and 10 cartridges. I have one outlier in case size (and don't have a trimmer). The OAL is more consistent than I thought it would be, but is it consistent enough? It looks like I need to bring the bullet down just a hair. What can you tell me about this information that I've gathered tonight as far as consistency and acceptable variation?
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-wTGbFmgXKhk/Uzz2HZQ_OnI/AAAAAAAAI4w/POLp2br41RQ/w999-h562-no/20140402_234804_Richtone%2528HDR%2529.jpg
Here are the pictures of the 10 rounds I made tonight (no primer, no powder).
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-LU6w9Xh--Vs/Uz0BkBC9KXI/AAAAAAAAI58/0QcDSJpihn4/w999-h562-no/20140403_003620_Richtone%2528HDR%2529.jpg
This first one on the left looks a little bulged.
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-vheuAa_j3MY/Uz0Bl7bV6FI/AAAAAAAAI6I/D96J6HuaNF4/w999-h562-no/20140403_003557_Richtone%2528HDR%2529.jpg
Great-Kazoo
04-03-2014, 02:54
Heavy ring is from over crimping. The OAL variation is from the bullets. Very rarely have same exact OAL on plated bullets.measure a few, you'll see what I mean. Don't bother trimming pistol brass, Like the bullets all your brass will not be consistent. When I started I did the same as you and I went crazy, trying to get a uniform OAL Regarding the bulge, I don't do 40, need one who does to chime in. However 9mm had that "bulge" once finished.
Measure .005 on paper, it's like 2 - 3 hairs thick.
BuffCyclist
04-03-2014, 06:13
Okay, for starters, your brass is TOO clean, stop it, you're making me question my brass cleaning habits. [Stick]
For what its worth, I load my 40 with 180gr and seated to 1.125", so that part is at least in the ballpark. I haven't used AA#5 for more than 9mm when a friend was using it, and we found the Lee Pro Auto Disk powder measure to have difficulty with dropping consistent charges with AA#5. This Lee powder dropper works PERFECTLY for Win WST (which is my normal powder for 40).
The scraped plating is due to, as you found, not enough flare, but be careful to not put too much flare. The heavy ring around the bullet is as kazoo said, from too much crimp.
Not sure what to say about that ring around the brass, but it looks more like a discoloration than a physical ring that has a larger OD than the case diameter. That is probably due to the bullet being larger and expanding out the brass. I've noticed this on some of my reloads, as well as some factory ammo that for some reason, the bullet just pushes out on the brass more. I usually shoot them but if you're hesitant, just toss the brass in the trash can. There's no need to risk a kb if you aren't comfortable with using brass.
As far as the information you gathered, I can tell you that you're doing too much. I do not measure my case length, but with 40 I make sure I drop each completed round into a case gauge (only do this for 40 due to the bulge). That will tell me if my OAL is too short/long or perfect.
Your crimp is WAY too heavy. A good way to dial that in is to get a factory case from a good ammo company (i.e. don't use wolf). Insert the loaded round into the shell holder, back out the crimp dial a LOT, then raise the ram and hold it there while you slowly twist the crimp dial until it touches the factory loaded round, lower the ram and then turn the dial 1/4-1/2 turn more and place a mark on it and leave it. If you have problems inserting the reloaded round into the case gage and it is obviously due to the case mouth flare, turn the crimp dial in another 1/4-1/2 turn and repeat. I only crimp enough to remove the flare and then slightly more (like 0.001" if it were easy to measure that).
I can't see the bulge you're talking about in the picture, but I've seen some obviously bulged 40 cases and they are so obvious, you will notice it (like 0.0625" higher than the rest of the case).
Lastly, if you haven't found it yet, check out Xtremebullets.com. They are the cheapest source I have found for quality plated bullets. They are running a 10% off all plated bullets (10offALLplate) and I have 1k 115gr 9mm being delivered today for $76 shipped (their shipping is included in the cost, so basically free shipping). I also have 500 38spl and 1k 180gr 40 coming next week and those cost about $140. I have been VERY impressed with the quality of their bullets.
Other than that, load up a few and start low on the charges. My most accurate load was the starting load for WST and now that I have a chrono, I'm going to finally find out the velocity of them too.
Do you have a go-no go case gage, this tool is chambered for the caliber that you are loading for. The case gage will let you set the depth, crimp, OAL of the round. It will also tell you if the sizing and crimping dies are set right.
http://www.dillonprecision.com/#/content/p/9/pid/25548/catid/3/Dillon_Handgun_Case_Gages
Colorado Osprey
04-03-2014, 06:41
The 40 like other straight wall rebated rim cartridges head spaces off the case mouth. The crimp is a taper crimp and the case should appear straight and not crimped when completed.
The marks on the bullets and you completed cartridges show that you had too much crimp. They should appear as though there is no crimp (straight)
40S&W even though it is pretty straight forward as far as reloading goes, is not a great choice for learning reloading. The reason being is pressures associated with the cartridge are so close to maximums. Too much crimp, very small powder variances can have catastrophic results. Many known as the Ka-booms seen in Glocks and other firearms. Most of these Ka-Booms occur in the 40 S&W reloads. I know of 3 personally who's guns have ka-boomed with may years of reloading experience.... all in 40S&W, all were reloads; none were Glocks.
That said, even with over 30 years of reloading experience, I load but not reload 40S&W. I'm not saying you should follow my lead, but just be extremely careful when re-loading the 40.
Going back, your 1st photo with the plating scuffs. I would re-use the bullet on the right. The left one I would take a knife to and cut away the buggered plating, then use it. The accuracy loss will not be noticeable under 50 yards.
Any bulged cases I would discard. They are too cheap to even try to press my luck in the 40S&W.
As far as your OAL, I wouldn't worry to much about your exact OAL, but consistency is key. As long as you can get a repeatable OAL and it is short enough to fit in the mags you are good.
To prevent case bulging you can separate seating bullets and crimping into 2 steps. Back the die off, and set the bullet set plunger to get a consistent OAL. Then back off the bullet seat plunger and adjust the die down to get the crimp you want. This is by far the easiest way to get everything perfect. Yes, it does take an extra step, but your "bad" round count will disappear. In these days of hard to find reloading components, I believe it is worth the time.
Sometimes bulged cases can also be cause by not enough case mouth bell, causing the bullet to not go straight in the case or scraping off plating, jacket or lead.
Additionally, over belling the case mouth over works the brass reducing case life.
Even with enough case mouth bell you can still get bulged case if the bullets are not set perfectly straight before trying to seat them. (as they go in at an angle)
I hope this helps.
Might spend $19 for a lee factory crimp die. I don't think it's much "better", but crimping in a Different operation than seating makes it a little easier to get consistent oal.
My only 40 problem so far has been with plated bullets, too tight of a crimp, and bulging of the bullet which caused feeding issues. Those got pulled down once I discovered the problem.
Jim advised that I use the barrel of my gun as a case gauge for completed rounds and this has solved that problem.
Colorado Osprey
04-03-2014, 08:35
Jim advised that I use the barrel of my gun as a case gauge for completed rounds and this has solved that problem.
Remove it from the gun and it is great advise! I usually do this as a quality check as I set up my dies.
Remove it from the gun and it is great advise! I usually do this as a quality check as I set up my dies.
Good point. That is important to note.
Great-Kazoo
04-03-2014, 08:52
Jim advised that I use the barrel of my gun as a case gauge for completed rounds and this has solved that problem.
Remove it from the gun and it is great advise! I usually do this as a quality check as I set up my dies.
I left that part out when talking with jamnac, since he oops my truck with his ;)
Thanks, both of you filled in the parts i left out, unable to respond from a tablet like one can from a laptop or pc, with fat fingers[LOL]
BuffCyclist
04-03-2014, 09:18
My [2cents] added above.
trlcavscout
04-03-2014, 10:08
Yep pull the barrel and use it as a case gauge. The damaged bullets will still work as plinkers. Don't sweat the OAL, like everyone said it varies. Lightly crimp them just enough to remove the bell. Me and my wife shot a lot of 40 in GSSF, 180gr plated over 3.5gr titegroup powder is a nice accurate plinking round.
BuffCyclist
04-03-2014, 11:51
But FYI on pulling the barrel and using it as a case gauge. Yes, this works, but the rounds you test this way should ONLY be used in that specific pistol. Some pistols have tighter chambers and you could have problems if they fit in a loose chamber but not in a tight chamber (granted, you're supposed to work a load up for each firearm you use so that negates the aforementioned warning).
Also, I've noticed that some brass will not fit in the case gauge but WILL fit in my Glock 23 barrel (for instance). Because that is an extruded portion of brass and could cause problems, I typically seat the bullet on more time which sizes the outside and reduces that bulge even further.
Plunk test in your barrel is the best method.
BuffCyclist
04-03-2014, 12:35
Plunk test in your barrel is the EASIEST/CHEAPEST/LAZIEST/DEFAULT/BAREBONES/BACKWOODS method.
FIFY, take your pick which word you want to use.
The plunk test works to determine if the round will CHAMBER in your specific firearm. It says NOTHING about whether the brass has been sized to SAAMI specs.
If brass has a serious bulge and the bulge can not be removed with sizing, then I would venture to say that case is damaged beyond salvage and needs to be discarded (and yes, if I can get rid of the bulge with a second sizing, I'll shoot it but if not, I pull the bullet/powder and toss out the case).
Now, I keep stressing this aspect because 40 brass is different than other calibers. Yes, I have a 9mm case gage and yes, it is nothing more than a paperweight. I've loaded 1000 rounds of 9mm and ran each through the case gage, not a single one got hung up on the case gage or failed to fully seat. Of my 40 rounds, many being shot through a Glock or my M&Pc, at least 1 in 10 would get hung up on the bulge. Which indicates that the bulge in 40 is indeed present and needs to be monitored. If you have a piece of brass that is so seriously bulged it's about to explode like Sigourney Weaver's stomach in Aliens, it will still probably plunking into a pulled barrel and you'd be none the wiser. But if you used a case gage, it would be extremely obvious.
I've had 40 rounds that pass my dillon case gauge, but won't chamber in my lone wolf 40 barrel. Many of us reload for pistol to reduce cost of ammo. There is a tendency with reloading to constantly buy more stuff. If your using a published oal and the round fits the chamber, what's the risk? I'm not being a smartass either, have you seen undersized straight wall pistol ammo?
This is all great info guys. I'll try to respond to everything.
The cleanliness of that pictured brass is pure fluke, there are about 10 out of 2,700 that clean.
I suspected too much crimp, and need to figure out how to adjust that. Certainly explains the difficulty I was having trying to pull those rounds out with the hammer.
I don't plan on measuring case length, or bullet length, in the future, but I wanted an idea of variance before making completed rounds so I didn't fret over non-consistent OAL.
I do not have a go no-go guage, I thought those were more for rifle. I'll post up as I make more progress. Thanks so far, very insightful.
This appears to be the method for setting the bullet seating/crimping die
OPtdEFS2CAo&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Great-Kazoo
04-03-2014, 14:17
This is all great info guys. I'll try to respond to everything.
The cleanliness of that pictured brass is pure fluke, there are about 10 out of 2,700 that clean.
I suspected too much crimp, and need to figure out how to adjust that. Certainly explains the difficulty I was having trying to pull those rounds out with the hammer.
I don't plan on measuring case length, or bullet length, in the future, but I wanted an idea of variance before making completed rounds so I didn't fret over non-consistent OAL.
I do not have a go no-go guage, I thought those were more for rifle. I'll post up as I make more progress. Thanks so far, very insightful.
If you have more than 1 gun you should have case gauges. FWIW: I seat & crimp in separate stations. Not all bullets and brass are exactly the same OAL, even from the same package. Unless you're buying match brass.
I load a lot of .40 S&W and you have already been given some great advice. If you have enough holes on the press, seat and crimp separately. Crimping is just removing the flare, nothing more. Since I shoot my ammunition from more than one firearm, I use a case gage. The LE Wilson gages are not that expensive and save me a lot of time. I have a Lee bulge buster but don't really use it because the Lee Factory Crimp die has been good enough to get everything I load to gage correctly.
Setting up dies is the most time consuming part IMO, but once you have them set up, leave them alone unless you change something or something starts getting fouled up.
I didn't start with plated bullets and I don't cast, so I can' offer any advice on the shaving. Montana Gold Bullets has provided some very nice 155 gr JHP that shoot very nicely out of everything I've shot them out of.
My process:
Decap fired brass with a Harvey Deprimer. Takes longer, but it gives me something to do when I'm sitting on the porch or in front of the TV.
Tumble overnight.
Size brass with the pin in. This will knock out any tumbling media in the flash hole.
Depending on how much brass I have sitting around waiting to load, I may hand prime (something to do while sitting around the house) or prime on the press while loading. I use a Lee Pro Auto disk to flare and charge cases. Once you find the right hole on the disk for your powder, the volume in each case is very consistent and I find it every bit as effective as a Dillon powder measure.
Agree on the lee. The micrometer adjustable upgrade is precise for me as well.
Okay, I followed the instructions in the video a few times until I got it right and I think I'm in business now. Do these look better?
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-JdhjIa77MXg/Uz4oMb4nH-I/AAAAAAAAI60/brag7xTrA5Q/w999-h562-no/20140403_213400_Richtone%2528HDR%2529.jpg
Before crimp and after crimp. Much better now.
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-w_SWw0rdrVU/Uz4wR0e7UpI/AAAAAAAAI7M/vzgbR_fFd7g/w999-h562-no/20140403_220814_Richtone%2528HDR%2529.jpg
I'm going to go pound out all 15 rounds and start looking playing with the scale and powder measure. I read somewhere to load in .5 grain increments, but that doesn't make sense since a lot of the load data I'm seeing is less than 1 grain apart. I'm going to make batches in .1 grain increments. Also, it seems like people usually do groups of three at a time. Well, I don't really trust myself to really get a feel for something with only three shots, so I'm going to do batches of at least 5, and maybe 10. Comments? I think if I get as far as actually trying to load tonight, I'll go maybe 5.8 - 7.0 of AA#5. We'll see if that plan changes once I actually get into the garage or not.
.2 increments and batches of 10. Once you get to the ones that cycle your pistol reliably you can work on accuracy and felt recoil.
I assume you are only loading these for one handgun? Are you trying to make a PF for IDPA or are these just going to primarily be for range practice? If PF, you will need to chronograph your rounds.
My two goals for my rounds are; must cycle in every thing I have chambered for .40 S&W which includes a Kel Tec Sub2000, and I want a similar felt recoil to the 125 gr .357 SIG rounds I carry everyday. I use Power Pistol and 7.2 gr under the 155 gr bullet seem to work well for me.
One gun, I use it for everything, including IDPA. I have yet to attend a state match, but I'll cross that bridge when I get there. Thanks for the tip on the .2 increments, that cuts my amount in half and I'm happy about that. I just ended up priming and flaring about 100 rounds for tonight. EDIT: I realized when I got back into the garage that the first batch of primers I purchased were Federal small pistol (200). I already had a few cases primed with them, so I primed the rest of my batch. Will I have to start all over and work up a new load once I switch to using the 1,000 CCI primers I bought?
I actually have some reloads I bought from someone a long time ago, and while they are accurate, they tend to shoot just soft enough that they cause cycle issues in this gun. I'd like to avoid that. Before anyone asks, I bought them before I really knew, and have run about 50 of them through my pistol at a match. I have quite a few and imagine I'll run the rest at some point. Here they are: 1.135 OAL, 175g lead Semi-wadcutter, over 4.2 g Bullseye, loaded quite a few years ago. The reloader has since passed apparently
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-2QuESx5WIIg/Uz496uGDxWI/AAAAAAAAI78/TgVob2HgQ60/w999-h562-no/20140403_225321_Richtone%2528HDR%2529.jpg
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-npwakebTy2o/Uz498c1McZI/AAAAAAAAI8I/zU_8meiZE0U/w999-h562-no/20140403_225413_Richtone%2528HDR%2529.jpg
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-ZvKR6NuY2Lo/Uz499nRWMUI/AAAAAAAAI8U/LVIJxh6jiN4/w999-h562-no/20140403_225431_Richtone%2528HDR%2529.jpg
This happened tonight. Strangely enough, this is actually the 9mm die that I have never used yet, that is just hanging out in the turret for now. I must have been rotating the turret with the press up at some point. This pin is free to anyone who wants to use it for steel tumbling media.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Fr4fv53TTCQ/Uz450Tay5eI/AAAAAAAAI7s/Zwf4ZR6XzZA/w999-h562-no/20140403_224814_Richtone%2528HDR%2529.jpg
Great-Kazoo
04-04-2014, 07:25
No need to change data for primer change, UNLESS you chrono differently. IIRC my FPS is 1-2FPS. I'm not competing it's not an issue, as is slight OAL variation.
40 is a pretty easy caliber to reload. I dont shoot much of it these days, but have probably loaded well over 100K of it over the years.
AA#5 is a good powder for it as well. Not terribly fast and not real slow like #9 or Blue Dot.
I load my 40 ammo to about 1.140 when shot through small frame guns like Glocks and Sigs. Loading it a touch longer than 1.125 gives me a little more buffer room on pressure. Loading short will make pressure spike in a hurry. When I run it through a 1911, I load it long to 1.170 - 1.200 as long as the barrel has been throated to accept long loaded bullets.
I like to use a barrel as a gauge. They tell me everything I need to know about the ammo. Gauges are fine if they are cut with the same reamer that cut your chamber right after it cut your chamber. And then a good gauge should be cut from a chunk of barrel to make sure the bullet is clearing the rifling. Most all gauges out there dont tell you that.
I also roll size all my pistol brass before I reload it. If you are concerned about bulged brass I would be happy to roll size your brass for you.
Thans for the offer Hoser. I think I'll see if I run into any trouble first.
BuffCyclist
04-09-2014, 20:52
From Xtreme Bullets Plated Discounts Thread:
Do you load them hotter than lead rounds? Do you load them as hot as jacketed rounds? You load for .40 right? If you don't want to take this thread off topic, you can reply in my .40 S&W thread, again.
I have no experience with lead so I can't say if they're hotter. I chrono'd some today and my new pet load is 180gr Xtreme RN, 4.3gr Win WST, CCI SPP for an average of 834 FPS with StdDev of 5 FPS (Glock 23, 4" barrel) and 799 FPS with StdDev of 7 FPS (M&P40c, 3.5" barrel).
When I took it up to the max load for WST in 40 (4.9gr according to WIN), I got an average of 912 FPS (G23) and 876 FPS (M&P40c). I took the M&P40c up another load for a Max+ load at 5.3gr and got 903 FPS (M&P40c).
For what its worth, I haven't loaded jacketed pistol, but with WST in my two pistols at max, I can get 164/157 PF, so I'm goign to guess that's not as hot as jacketed since I can't make major with it and that's silly because it should be quite easy to make major with 40.
I also haven't had a chance to chrono my 9mm yet that I'm running with their 124gr bullets, but I just bought some 115gr and if I can find any powder for it I'll load them up and see what I get then let you know.
eta: Forgot to tell you, I pulled the 10rds of 5.3gr I was going to shoot through the G23 but was at max velocity with the 4.9gr. When I looked at the bullets, there was no indication they had been loaded before. The crimp ring was EVER so slight, barely even noticeable. It was only after I got out my flashlight and really inspected the bullet.
Loading up my first rounds, trying to do loads in .2 grain increments. Here is the same charge, measured with the scale locked at 6.6g and 6.7g. Is it safe for me to assume that the actual charge weight is around 6.65g?
6.6g
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-S7HYR3yXeFo/U18kICdpIrI/AAAAAAAAJY0/BRunYIX6Ftc/w999-h562-no/20140428_220025_Richtone%2528HDR%2529.jpg
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Wp7EDzAmz7w/U18kQTc1tTI/AAAAAAAAJZM/l4F13q6Bgp4/w999-h562-no/20140428_220205_Richtone%2528HDR%2529.jpg
6.7g
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-VFMWq__GHug/U18kLnXrRjI/AAAAAAAAJZA/hL2MjRgx_1Q/w999-h562-no/20140428_220142_Richtone%2528HDR%2529.jpg
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-RVujjkHt7pY/U18kGlVHf9I/AAAAAAAAJYo/uXSvcpi7PVA/w999-h562-no/20140428_220037_Richtone%2528HDR%2529.jpg
Also, I'm curious about the powder splashing out of the dish, and in general falling out of the measure. Here is a picture of the bowl I set the dish in, to dump each charge. I'm using a plastic funnel to direct the charge into the dish, but it comes out fast enough to bounce out of the dish. The second picture is a close up of the bench, where a bit of powder is getting as well. How worried should I be about this? I'd say after charging the dish about 5-7 times, there is maybe 1 g of powder inside the bowl (about twice what is pictured), but I have not yet measured. I assume there is going to be a certain percentage of dropped primers, spilled powder, and crushed projectiles, but I want to make sure before 25 guys rush in here telling me how they haven't lost a primer since the winter of '86.
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-p3D4DtHpgW8/U18VD9_eaBI/AAAAAAAAJX0/6llDm9IfNzU/w999-h562-no/20140428_205715_Richtone%2528HDR%2529.jpg
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-Xf4YMBgk01k/U18VJbz2O3I/AAAAAAAAJYA/r1-79IVUxvc/w999-h562-no/20140428_205736_Richtone%2528HDR%2529.jpg
Bump for morning guys.
powder stragglers are part of the game as long as what is going in to the case is accurate I would not worry about it.
Thank you. That is what I figured, but thought I should ask.
Not_A_Llama
04-29-2014, 14:35
Jesus, dude. It took you three years to start loading after you got the dies and bullets? (faster than me)
Are you shooting those lead bullets in a Glock with a stock barrel, by chance?
I recommend Bayou bullets if you're looking for an inexpensive and Glock-friendly alternative to FMJ and plated.
M&P, and those lead bullets do jam up the gun, so I'm pretty eager to get my own load that actually feeds smoothly, preferably before this month's classifier.
But yes, three years. [Tooth]
Okay, I've completed 10 rounds each of 5.8g - 7.0g, in .2 grain increments (70 rounds). Can anyone post any advice as to how best go about determining my target load? I imagine 3 shot groups and looking for smallest grouping? Should I be shooting off a bag at 20ish yards at an indoor range? A step by step, or even some goals would be handy.
Now, as far as things I've learned, be familiar with your equipment. Everyone gives the advice to read all you can, but doesn't really give an example of why. I learned a few things last night, and tonight, that I frankly should have already known, and have now spent HOURS learning the hard way. 1) There is a lock on my scale, so I can set a weight and dial in and not worry about the scale shifting any time I bump it, or let it fall too quickly when removing the pan. 2) I knew there were markings on the back of one of the screw adjustments on my powder measure, because I saw them at some point. I never stopped to even consider what they might be for. After spending hours and hours (easily an hour for each target weight) trying to dial in each weight, it occurred to me that I could get close, then turn my large knob and precisely dial in the weight of powder charge I want. Before this I was crowding over my measure, loosening one nut and lightly tapping, or pulling out, the shaft of the measure, and just going back and forth from just over to just under my goal. If I had figured this out earlier, I probably could have done all 70 loads in two days, instead of four. My back hurts and I feel dumb. At least I learned something though.
Not_A_Llama
04-30-2014, 08:57
As far as selecting which load, my requirements are:
-Reliable Functioning
-Must meet power factor (I require I be 2 SDs away from the floor, though in practice, it's typically necessary to go "hotter" to capture optimal accuracy)
-Lastly, accuracy
I like ten round groups, from bench, at 25 yards. Pay particular attention to how you "bench"; don't rest the front of the gun on bags, as this can change your groupings.
-I like to set my wrists or my mag on the bag.
Do you have a chrono? You're welcome to come shoot and chrono with us at CRC any weekend.
No chrono, and thanks for the offer. Let me work on accuracy and getting a base now, and I'll work up to chrono and worrying about power factor as I develop my reloading skills.
I was fitting those swc lead roinds into the barrel, compared to my reloads, and my fresh reloads fit a lot better. The lead rounds seemed gummed up on the brass and some would even get stuck before chambering fully when just dropping them in with no force other than the bullet weight. I also spent a LOT of time cleaning out my barrel last night. I've never seen it so leaded. I was stripping out chunks and strips of lead for an hour and it is still not very clean.
Discovered the reason I'm spilling so much powder.
Here is my powder measure.
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-noZs43ste_0/U12niLrki6I/AAAAAAAAJW0/-NF1K-rcBhU/w316-h562-no/20140427_185038_Richtone%2528HDR%2529.jpg
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/bQl87LuPbvZh1bLCyWMTLClJ2AiTrR7WhXXQ3tfddjg=w999-h562-no
The top pipe is just long enough to hold the cap on, but small enough that I don't have to force it on and off each time. I didn't think it through, but it worked out perfectly. EXCEPT, if I put the cap on quickly enough, the air inside the feeder tube doesn't have time to equalize, and it blows powder out the side of the base. Shown as this tiny crack on the left side in this picture.
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-WeXbbN3TuSw/U2GcW5dcGpI/AAAAAAAAJZk/kJOOLyNB1T0/w999-h562-no/20140430_185901_Richtone%2528HDR%2529.jpg
So each time I remove and replace the cap, which is a lot when I'm dialing in a load, it blasts about 1 grain out the side. I can just put the cap on slowly and it doesn't happen. However, if I want to not worry about it, I could seal this gap in some way. I don't want to use a sealant for many reasons, such as risk contaminating the powder, want to be able to remove the pipe, etc. I could wrap a rubber band around the base of the pipe, but even that thickness will make it difficult to place the pipe in the stand. My options are a gasket at the bottom (which requires me going and shopping for one), or drill a small vent hole on the side of the cap. How important is it to keep the powder sealed? If I drill a 1/8" hole on each side of the cap to help equalize the pressure without blowing powder out, will I have to worry about the powder going flat or some other adverse reaction to contact with the air?
That's kinda cool. I like how you kludged the Dillon part.
Why the bend?
BuffCyclist
04-30-2014, 21:02
Discovered the reason I'm spilling so much powder.
Here is my powder measure.
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-noZs43ste_0/U12niLrki6I/AAAAAAAAJW0/-NF1K-rcBhU/w316-h562-no/20140427_185038_Richtone%2528HDR%2529.jpg
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/bQl87LuPbvZh1bLCyWMTLClJ2AiTrR7WhXXQ3tfddjg=w999-h562-no
The top pipe is just long enough to hold the cap on, but small enough that I don't have to force it on and off each time. I didn't think it through, but it worked out perfectly. EXCEPT, if I put the cap on quickly enough, the air inside the feeder tube doesn't have time to equalize, and it blows powder out the side of the base. Shown as this tiny crack on the left side in this picture.
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-WeXbbN3TuSw/U2GcW5dcGpI/AAAAAAAAJZk/kJOOLyNB1T0/w999-h562-no/20140430_185901_Richtone%2528HDR%2529.jpg
So each time I remove and replace the cap, which is a lot when I'm dialing in a load, it blasts about 1 grain out the side. I can just put the cap on slowly and it doesn't happen. However, if I want to not worry about it, I could seal this gap in some way. I don't want to use a sealant for many reasons, such as risk contaminating the powder, want to be able to remove the pipe, etc. I could wrap a rubber band around the base of the pipe, but even that thickness will make it difficult to place the pipe in the stand. My options are a gasket at the bottom (which requires me going and shopping for one), or drill a small vent hole on the side of the cap. How important is it to keep the powder sealed? If I drill a 1/8" hole on each side of the cap to help equalize the pressure without blowing powder out, will I have to worry about the powder going flat or some other adverse reaction to contact with the air?
Drill a hole in the cap. If you're worried about dust falling in and contaminating powder (which you shouldn't, see below), then drill the hole in the side of the cap, but above where it rests on the pipe.
You should never leave powder stored in a powder measure when you aren't actively reloading, as in, at the end of each reloading session you should put the powder back into the powder containers. And yes, that's what the powder jug says, but if you live dangerously and don't follow directions, carry on.
eta: For what its worth, I was loading my pet 40 load with 3.9gr WST behind a 180gr Xtreme plated bullet. That was the best grouping I had when I did my initial 5rd groups last year. This year, when I got a chrono, I decided to retest and found that 4.3gr was the optimal load (5FPS StdDev in my Glock 23, 7FPS StdDev in my M&P40c) and had the smallest grouping. Since the StdDev's don't lie, I switched my pet load. But I still had my target from last year when I did my initial loads and the 4.3gr load was almost identical in size to the 3.9gr load, I just chose the 3.9gr load last year due to it using less powder.
That's kinda cool. I like how you kludged the Dillon part.
Why the bend?
The old powder measure had baffles, I guess to help support the weight of the powder and help reduce clumping and other pressure problems. I went to Sportsmans and the small baffle, that I'd have to mangle to fit anyway, was $9.99. Looking at it I knew I could make it out of an aluminum can, but I knew it'd be ugly and barely work. I went to Home Depot to look at ideas (I came up with several if anyone is ever interested), and the idea sprung out at me when looking at a T fitting. I figured if I off-set the bulk of the powder so it wasn't directly above the working parts, I could avoid pressure issues. Using T fittings and 90 bends seemed bulky.
In short, those bends are my attempt at poor man's baffles, to off-set the weight of the powder. Seems to be working well so far, especially since I only have a pound of powder and didn't put much in to start with in the first place.
Drill a hole in the cap. If you're worried about dust falling in and contaminating powder (which you shouldn't, see below), then drill the hole in the side of the cap, but above where it rests on the pipe.
You should never leave powder stored in a powder measure when you aren't actively reloading, as in, at the end of each reloading session you should put the powder back into the powder containers. And yes, that's what the powder jug says, but if you live dangerously and don't follow directions, carry on.
Didn't know about removing the powder, thank you. My idea of the side hole is exactly what you said.
When removing powder, do you just remove the charge stick and pour it out that way? Seems like it will be a pain to reset every time. Oh well, more reason to reload a lot in each session.
BuffCyclist
04-30-2014, 21:09
Didn't know about removing the powder, thank you. My idea of the side hole is exactly what you said.
When removing powder, do you just remove the charge stick and pour it out that way? Seems like it will be a pain to reset every time. Oh well, more reason to reload a lot in each session.
No, unmount the powder measure and pour the powder out through the top. Easy peasy. I also use super high tech and spendy paper funnels. They're pretty neat actually, they come in this 8.5x11" size and are always lumped in one nice big bin in my reloading room, there are bins for plastic, cans and glass too. [Coffee]
On second look, it'll be hard for you to remove that powder measure since its permamounted. I have mine c-clamped to my bench, which makes clean up super simple. And for pistol, it mounts directly into the die (both are Lee powder measures, one is rifle, one is the pistol pro auto lee disk whatever).
eta: You could also fill the powder measure half full. The reason for the jig in your measure is to prevent a full hopper from compacting powder and pouring larger loads in the beginning and smaller loads when its empty. Then when you're done, just cycle the powder measure in 5gr or whatever your charge is, increments into the jug until its empty. Just make sure its totally empty (tap on wall then keep emptying, powder static clings to everything) before adding a different powder.
I will look it up, but what is the threat of leaving powder in the hopper? Is it static? Risk of mixing another powder?
If I were a smart guy, I'd design a powder throw with a threaded base, and drop in baffle, that would accept the 1lb size bottles. Then you'd just place the baffle, mount the bottle and go. When you're done, turn the whole thing over, unscrew from throw, replace lid, store till next time.
I like it, very creative and unique.
I've been known to leave some powder in the measure on the press for a week or two and never had a problem. Low humidity and no large temperature swings, so the powder isn't really affected. That said, I wouldn't leave it for months without loading some or dumping it back into the proper cannister it came out of.
Next step will be some type of auto powder measure. I like these for the price:
44209
BuffCyclist
04-30-2014, 21:21
I will look it up, but what is the thread of leaving powder in the hopper? Is it static? Risk of mixing another powder?
If I were a smart guy, I'd design a powder throw with a threaded base, and drop in baffle, that would accept the 1lb size bottles. Then you'd just place the baffle, mount the bottle and go. When you're done, turn the whole thing over, unscrew from throw, replace lid, store till next time.
Want me to design such a system? [LOL]
I think the threat for leaving powder in the powder measure is from moisture (humidity) but maybe I misunderstand too. I know all powder jugs are light proof, so maybe the powder degrades over time when exposed to light? [Dunno]
I've loaded every night so far. I'll go take it out. I know the cap on my Accurate No.5 sure as heck isn't light proof though. Can practically see right through it.
And yes, please design that powder measure so we can both get rich.
Cstone, brand and model of that measure?
BuffCyclist
04-30-2014, 21:27
I've loaded every night so far. I'll go take it out. I know the cap on my Accurate No.5 sure as heck isn't light proof though. Can practically see right through it.
And yes, please design that powder measure so we can both get rich.
Cstone, brand and model of that measure?
I have my pistol powder measure mounted to my dies (single stage press), so pouring the powder out from the top is super easy.
I guess in theory that type of powder measure could be designed, but I'd probably have to sell thread adapters for various powder jug manufacturers, as I'm sure the cap thread isn't a standard [LOL]
I love my lee prodisk. Double disk kit and micrometer. Good stuff for small money.
https://fsreloading.com/lee-precision-auto-disk-powder-measure-90578.html
Lee makes this measure with a spring return or a chain return. I prefer the spring return and have converted one of the chain return models to utilize the spring. If you find a load that works for you with a given powder in .40 S&W using the disk, you can leave the thing and just run it. It takes a bit to set it up, but once you have the correct hole on the disk, the charge remains very constant. I still check the weight every so often, but in .40 you can easily look in the case and see that the powder is filling the same volume on each case.
I think of it as a poor man's version of the Dillon powder measure. I use them on my handgun loads and leave them setup on their respective Dillon 550 toolheads.
Great-Kazoo
04-30-2014, 22:22
I will look it up, but what is the thread of leaving powder in the hopper? Is it static? Risk of mixing another powder?
If I were a smart guy, I'd design a powder throw with a threaded base, and drop in baffle, that would accept the 1lb size bottles. Then you'd just place the baffle, mount the bottle and go. When you're done, turn the whole thing over, unscrew from throw, replace lid, store till next time.
Easiest way to eliminate the powder from seeping through the base- pvc area is a light bead of silicone. You are using a dryer sheet in the powder tube, yes? For putting powder in to the measure, or back to the jug, I use the top section of a cranberry or other liquid container. I also use a dryer sheet so the powder runs over it, minimizing static build up.
Pretty dang smart!
The old powder measure had baffles, I guess to help support the weight of the powder and help reduce clumping and other pressure problems. I went to Sportsmans and the small baffle, that I'd have to mangle to fit anyway, was $9.99. Looking at it I knew I could make it out of an aluminum can, but I knew it'd be ugly and barely work. I went to Home Depot to look at ideas (I came up with several if anyone is ever interested), and the idea sprung out at me when looking at a T fitting. I figured if I off-set the bulk of the powder so it wasn't directly above the working parts, I could avoid pressure issues. Using T fittings and 90 bends seemed bulky.
In short, those bends are my attempt at poor man's baffles, to off-set the weight of the powder. Seems to be working well so far, especially since I only have a pound of powder and didn't put much in to start with in the first place.
I have my pistol powder measure mounted to my dies (single stage press), so pouring the powder out from the top is super easy.
I can fit my powder measure in one of the holes on the turret, but I'd need a riser because it gets in the way of the other dies.
https://fsreloading.com/lee-precision-auto-disk-powder-measure-90578.html
I think of it as a poor man's version of the Dillon powder measure. I use them on my handgun loads and leave them setup on their respective Dillon 550 toolheads.
That's a pretty dang good deal. I remember a few years ago when I was looking, I just looked up the RCBS powder measures to match my press and it seemed like everything started at $70+. According to the link, I'd need to purchase the riser as well to use it on the turret? Is it easy for you to switch back and forth between known charges (for different weights or even different calibers)? Or are they so cheap you just buy one for each caliber?
Easiest way to eliminate the powder from seeping through the base- pvc area is a light bead of silicone. You are using a dryer sheet in the powder tube, yes? For putting powder in to the measure, or back to the jug, I use the top section of a cranberry or other liquid container. I also use a dryer sheet so the powder runs over it, minimizing static build up.
Have not heard of using the dryer sheet, I'll have to try it. I drilled holes in the cap, and experimented with wrapping the base with one layer of electrical tape. One layer is too thick and bunches up. I tried wrapping the tape just above the gap, to block it, but that was too precise so my holes in the cap will have to do.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-cSVX7jc8on8/U2HLGWHZSPI/AAAAAAAAJaU/5-uft6opK-I/w999-h562-no/20140430_221659_Richtone%2528HDR%2529.jpg
Pretty dang smart!
Hey thanks! +1
Here is the total price of my powder measure. Less than the baffle at Sportsmans if you remember.
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-8DO0Y_rvpRc/U2HMruzpEBI/AAAAAAAAJak/xZ3Dx6hRr60/w999-h562-no/20140430_222407_Richtone%2528HDR%2529.jpg
I'm only reloading .40 S&W and .38 Spl +P in handguns, so I have a tool head set up for each caliber. Each toolhead has it's own auto disk setup for the reload recipe I have settled on. I don't need a riser on the Dillon 550, but they are available from FSRelading and Titan (both good sources for Lee stuff). I worked up a load for Power Pistol under 155 gr Montana Gold JHP bullets, figured out which hole on the disk would drop that charge, and other than occasionally confirming the drop weight and visually checking the amount of powder in each case, it doesn't get much more automated than this.
Changing holes on the disk isn't difficult; empty hopper, two screws, lift hopper and rotate disk to desired hole. Lee makes an adjustable charge bar for use instead of the disks for people who want to change the powder charge dropped. I have one, but have more faith in the constant volume hole and like knowing that one less moving part can mess with the process. Extra disk sets are available and if necessary you can stack two disks for larger charges using longer screws.
For the pistol loads, there is a micrometer adjustable insert available as well. If you use the lee on a dillon, it frees you from the cost of caliber conversions. ETA it will require lee dies though, the measure works with lee powder through dies. They are specific to each pistol caliber, the rifle charging die is universal.
Great-Kazoo
05-01-2014, 09:52
For the pistol loads, there is a micrometer adjustable insert available as well. If you use the lee on a dillon, it frees you from the cost of caliber conversions.
uniquetek.
http://www.uniquetek.com/site/696296/page/45031
I do happen to have the Lee dies, including the powder through die.
Not_A_Llama
05-01-2014, 11:24
The Lee Micrometer insert is the biggest POS they make, and was outright dangerous when I used it (might be OK for 45 or larger volume powder drops, but definitely not for 3-4g of Universal or Solo). I ended up drilling and forcibly tapping a setscrew into the side of a well that was slightly oversized, to allow adjustability.
The Lee measure is otherwise pretty good, albeit messy. If you get one, plan to spend some time with a pencil, dry lubing the mechanism.
The aluminun can baffles are actually very workable, and there's templates available to make the end product pretty nice: http://www.allmantrading.com/reloading/baffle.pdf
The only thing with the cans is that soda cans are coated with a thin plastic layer, which tends to build a static charge. A dryer sheet readily disperses the static, though.
Have an appointment for an hour at the range tonight after work. Here's to hoping I don't blow myself up.
You won't.
Just take a few seconds between each round to register the report of the round. If it feels like factory ammunition and the handgun cycled, you are on the right track. If it feels like excessive recoil, clear the handgun and give it a once over. The same is true for a light report.
On a new load, I usually only load one round in the magazine to start. Round feels normal and the slide locks back...all is good. Then load two, etc.
Once you have a load you like, then the real production begins [Coffee]
Okay, working on pictures. First let me get this out of the way. I was shooting at 10 yards so I could see the holes to check for squibs. My first shot at 6.65g and everything felt and sounded normal, but I couldn't see an impact. I brought the target in the check since I thought I had a squib. Lucky shot.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-6o8sQeNLctw/U2Lis7Eg-aI/AAAAAAAAJcc/XIN7rUKhiTY/w999-h562-no/20140501_180806.jpg
BuffCyclist
05-01-2014, 20:45
Nice shootin' Irving!
Hope you brought two targets with you to the range today because my luck, something like that happens and its my only target then I have to decide if I shoot over it or save it for later [LOL]
All of the following are 10 shots each, 180g Berry's Plated, loaded to 1.125 OAL, mixed headstamp brass. Charge weights are Accurate No 5, fired out of a Smith and Wesson M&P 40c with 3.5" barrel. This is my carry and competition gun. The very first target is at 15 yards and started from a seated position and supported on a bag. I've never shot supported and I was all over the place, so I just decided to stand up after the first 5 rounds. I still couldn't see the impacts, so all the targets but this first one are off hand, standing, at 10 yards (30 feet). After the first two weights I just did two sets of 5 rounds each. The last target is 11 rounds of the ammo I've been carrying for about 2 years now. I believe they are 165 g Federal Hydrashock.
5.8 g
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-Oz_TN3D7U78/U2L96Acsv0I/AAAAAAAAJcw/yDJ0UkpRoMw/w999-h562-no/20140501_200728_Richtone%2528HDR%2529.jpg
6.0g
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-mlL7IoyIMJ8/U2L-AvXmGdI/AAAAAAAAJc8/3aw4hDfMN8U/w999-h562-no/20140501_200751_Richtone%2528HDR%2529.jpg
6.2g
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-IijljdqMigA/U2L-GmtxjuI/AAAAAAAAJdI/VGg3_uCw0RQ/w999-h562-no/20140501_200815_Richtone%2528HDR%2529.jpg
6.4g
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-MLf7-1fv6Xk/U2L-MfERSrI/AAAAAAAAJdU/jQJasxba7AM/w999-h562-no/20140501_200841_Richtone%2528HDR%2529.jpg
6.65g **This is the rest of that first target with the bullseye. Great groupings here, but I don't like how far the others dropped out.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-yLyNsT53hz4/U2L-VkGJN9I/AAAAAAAAJdg/bwsxiPMDrbE/w999-h562-no/20140501_200917_Richtone%2528HDR%2529.jpg
6.8g
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-s9WhSvkKxb0/U2L-ZV9hWPI/AAAAAAAAJds/1ehucp5mb9w/w999-h562-no/20140501_200935_Richtone%2528HDR%2529.jpg
7.0g
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-dvlpvKYR2RI/U2L-i6heRgI/AAAAAAAAJd4/KgOimE9p6Xo/w999-h562-no/20140501_201013_Richtone%2528HDR%2529.jpg
Federal Hydrashock 165g carry ammo
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/--8LjxqQ4MsI/U2L-nbuVnmI/AAAAAAAAJeE/w0YXlGjZuaA/w999-h562-no/20140501_201031_Richtone%2528HDR%2529.jpg
Group shot
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-BOSRx-XmDhk/U2MDK1u1orI/AAAAAAAAJeU/Ww_aidKyoTI/w999-h562-no/20140501_202857_Richtone%2528HDR%2529.jpg
My initial thoughts and considerations.
Everything cycled great. About 50% of the time the slide didn't stay back on an empty slide. I don't know if this is related to ammo or not. Some weights would throw brass nicely, others I could hardly find any brass at all. Everything felt the same as far as recoil, but I'm not real sensitive/perceptive of that. Some of the weights seemed like they spit out pretty good amounts of fire.
I like 6.0 and 6.65 the best. I think I'll take the following into consideration on all the weights to decide where to make the next loads at.
-How many rounds in 10 ring.
-How many rounds in 8 ring.
-Smallest overall group.
Everything was done standing and off hand, and not very slow. Maybe 1 second or less between shots. I have to concentrate a lot to stay consistent, so I tend to view the flyers as lack of focus on my part. I'd REALLY like to hear input from everyone. If shooting off hand makes the groups too large and inconsistent to pick a group, I want to know, so don't be shy.
Great-Kazoo
05-01-2014, 22:22
Nice results, now lets see pics of BOTH hands!
Haha. Looks like I'll have to learn how to shoot off bags after all. Any recommended distance? I feel like anything past 10 yards I can't see well enough to put an accurate group together regardless (as evidenced by the first target).
I normally do 25 yards, supported off the bench with both hands and slow fire if I'm checking accuracy.
Not_A_Llama
05-03-2014, 05:26
I'd probably choose the 6.0 or the 6.65.
Look for precision (clusters), not accuracy (location of the average). Accuracy issues can (should) be corrected by sight adjustment, provided your shooting technique is sound.
BuffCyclist
05-03-2014, 08:11
Go with the smallest group. Doesn't matter if it is off the bullseye or not, because presumably you were aiming at the bullseye each shot. If you have two groups that are nearly identical, you can either choose the lowest charge (to conserve powder) or you can load both up again and reshoot.
Yeah, the plan is to load two larger groups (50-100 ea) 0f 6.0 and 6.6. That should give me plenty of room to try and get very focused groups off the bag, different distances, do some rapid fire, etc. Granted I shot off hand, but I was really expecting some wild differences for some groups.
Great-Kazoo
05-03-2014, 08:45
I'd probably choose the 6.0 or the 6.65.
Look for precision (clusters), not accuracy (location of the average). Accuracy issues can (should) be corrected by sight adjustment, provided your shooting technique is sound.
Go with the smallest group. Doesn't matter if it is off the bullseye or not, because presumably you were aiming at the bullseye each shot. If you have two groups that are nearly identical, you can either choose the lowest charge (to conserve powder) or you can load both up again and reshoot.
This ^ as with any load one does
Loaded up 50 rounds each of 6.0g and 6.65g of AA No.5 and shot them all in 10 strings of 10 rounds. What I found out:
- Shooting supported sucks.
- I suck at shooting supported.
- 4 of 5 times 6.0g locked back the slide after the last shot.
- 0 of 5 times 6.65g locked back the slide after the last shot.
- 6.65g feels like noticeably more recoil than 6.0g
- I have 10 targets that tell me little about the accuracy of my loads but I'll just go with 6.0g.
Pretty disappointing test session.
Not_A_Llama
05-17-2014, 08:18
Hard front sight focus and follow through. Just like shooting unsupported.
I'm surprised that the hotter load didn't lock back. Were you riding the slide release? I swapped out my G34's extended release for the OEM release for just that reason.
Given the combination of uncertain accuracy, potential function issues, and competition concerns, I would maybe just load up a crapton of the 6.0 load, and get started shooting. If you can maintain that size grouping at the classifier, you can make Master. Address concerns later, when you're more comfortable with the loading process, and aren't juggling so many things.
Thanks for the tip. Here's to hoping I can actually shoot my way out of marksman.
Quick primer tip I figured out tonight, for those learning to reload along with me. CCI primers come in a box like this. This the way I need the primers facing to load into my primer tube, but I can't fit my tube in there to get the primers.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-SPtzLrnCriE/U3lXLJ3YL1I/AAAAAAAAJoY/GOpQhL0yr90/w999-h562-no/20140518_185740_Richtone%2528HDR%2529.jpg
Carefully slide the tray out of the box, then set the box firmly on top of the primer tray, like so.
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-wsbRP2zgQJo/U3lXM9GOQ9I/AAAAAAAAJok/9jEg1afzV5k/w999-h562-no/20140518_185807_Richtone%2528HDR%2529.jpg
Flip the whole thing over, and VERY carefully remove the primer tray to reveal all the primers that have now been flipped over. Turn your primer tray over and cover all the primers, flip the whole thing over again, and now you have a neat tray full of primers all sitting the way you want them. Looks like this.
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-3g_EnROcXUo/U3lXOZhHlFI/AAAAAAAAJow/t9OiKUMsitU/w999-h562-no/20140518_185712_Richtone%2528HDR%2529.jpg
Much easier to use than the Federal primers, which are all stored sideways.
Not_A_Llama
05-19-2014, 07:26
Let me blow your mind:
http://www.amazon.com/RCBS-09480-Primer-Tray-2/dp/B000N8HW3M
You can probably get one for $5-7 at Sportsman's/Gander/Basspro/Cabela's.
Dump your entire primer tray out, shuffle the flipper tray until the primers flip compound-side-up, put on the flipper tray lid and invert. Voila.
Let me blow your mind:
http://www.amazon.com/RCBS-09480-Primer-Tray-2/dp/B000N8HW3M
You can probably get one for $5-7 at Sportsman's/Gander/Basspro/Cabela's.
Dump your entire primer tray out, shuffle the flipper tray until the primers flip compound-side-up, put on the flipper tray lid and invert. Voila.
I know about those, but haven't used one. I assume it's the same idea and works better with the Federal primers.
I'm about to start building my spread sheet for loads I've built so I don't forget the information. Off the top of my head I figure I'll include.
Bullet manufacture, weight, OAL, and powder charge. I would also add FPS if I had that info. What other info do you guys put into your charts or spreadsheets or whatever?
I like to use a barrel as a gauge. They tell me everything I need to know about the ammo. Gauges are fine if they are cut with the same reamer that cut your chamber right after it cut your chamber. And then a good gauge should be cut from a chunk of barrel to make sure the bullet is clearing the rifling. Most all gauges out there dont tell you that.
I've seen you describe how you use your barrel to measure before, but I can't think of where it is. From memory, I just lightly placed a bullet into a sized case, drew on the vertical surface with a permanent marker, placed the round into the chamber, and closed the slide. I was expecting resistance, but the slide closed all the way just fine. It was a little tough to open the slide, and I was expecting the bullet to be seated further, but it wasn't. I took the barrel out of the gun, and could drop the whole bullet all the way into the barrel and still feel it chamber onto the shoulder of the case, but the bullet wouldn't move at all. I measured and it looks like before chambering the OAL is 1.345, and after it only goes down to 1.320.
I think I'll just back off to 1.130 in the mean time to create more buffer for pressure spikes as you've suggested.
Okay, switched to Xtreme Plated 180 gr, from Berry's Plated 180 gr, and since the Ogive is different, just decided to start all over. I took Mr. Freeman's advice and lengthened the OAL to around 1.130-1.133. Still using AA No 5, I shot 10 round groups of 5.8g - 7.2g at .2 grain increments. 6.8g is my new target load compared to 6.0g with the Berry's. Below are my best target last time, and my new best target.
Old:
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-mlL7IoyIMJ8/U2L-AvXmGdI/AAAAAAAAJc8/3aw4hDfMN8U/w999-h562-no/20140501_200751_Richtone%2528HDR%2529.jpg
New:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-GQqhbNRd2rk/U5pNpADNL_I/AAAAAAAAKAc/4q0yA5Dwn30/w999-h562-no/20140612_190220_Richtone%2528HDR%2529.jpg
Also, I found this interesting. Both these cases (front and center) are from the same load weight. MOST of the primers (of all load weights) look more like the more flattened primer on the left. Some how, this single primer (out of 80) decided not to flatten much.
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-ntfWEesDG1k/U5pSRnUq22I/AAAAAAAAKAs/fzTpY1qzdMs/w999-h562-no/20140612_192157.jpg
Anyway, yay for new load. Excited to try it out at a match, considering how shockingly accurate the last load was.
ETA: Found a use for old primer trays.
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-7s_nlPRXxfc/U5PTKDfOHwI/AAAAAAAAJ9E/JCxUWSX0gLs/w999-h562-no/20140607_210605_Richtone%2528HDR%2529.jpg
You have a little primer cratering, but not flat at all.
Great-Kazoo
06-13-2014, 08:06
Okay, switched to Xtreme Plated 180 gr, from Berry's Plated 180 gr, and since the Ogive is different, just decided to start all over. I took Mr. Freeman's advice and lengthened the OAL to around 1.130-1.133. Still using AA No 5, I shot 10 round groups of 5.8g - 7.2g at .2 grain increments. 6.8g is my new target load compared to 6.0g with the Berry's. Below are my best target last time, and my new best target.
Old:
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-mlL7IoyIMJ8/U2L-AvXmGdI/AAAAAAAAJc8/3aw4hDfMN8U/w999-h562-no/20140501_200751_Richtone%2528HDR%2529.jpg
New:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-GQqhbNRd2rk/U5pNpADNL_I/AAAAAAAAKAc/4q0yA5Dwn30/w999-h562-no/20140612_190220_Richtone%2528HDR%2529.jpg
Also, I found this interesting. Both these cases (front and center) are from the same load weight. MOST of the primers (of all load weights) look more like the more flattened primer on the left. Some how, this single primer (out of 80) decided not to flatten much.
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-ntfWEesDG1k/U5pSRnUq22I/AAAAAAAAKAs/fzTpY1qzdMs/w999-h562-no/20140612_192157.jpg
Anyway, yay for new load. Excited to try it out at a match, considering how shockingly accurate the last load was.
ETA: Found a use for old primer trays.
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-7s_nlPRXxfc/U5PTKDfOHwI/AAAAAAAAJ9E/JCxUWSX0gLs/w999-h562-no/20140607_210605_Richtone%2528HDR%2529.jpg
You're saving the old primers for scrap, yes?
I haven't been. Do I take them somewhere? Standard metal recycling place?
Thanks Hoser.
Great-Kazoo
06-13-2014, 11:48
I haven't been. Do I take them somewhere? Standard metal recycling place?
Thanks Hoser.
Standard recycle, it is brass. I wait till there's a 5 gal bucket filled with primers and brass. Puts a tank of gas in the import.
Good to know. I think I have a small bucket of non-reloadable brass around somewhere. I'll just start adding to that. Thanks for the tip.
Great-Kazoo
06-13-2014, 13:04
Good to know. I think I have a small bucket of non-reloadable brass around somewhere. I'll just start adding to that. Thanks for the tip.
Hey, you set the boundary's .
40 is a pretty easy caliber to reload. I dont shoot much of it these days, but have probably loaded well over 100K of it over the years.
AA#5 is a good powder for it as well. Not terribly fast and not real slow like #9 or Blue Dot.
I load my 40 ammo to about 1.140 when shot through small frame guns like Glocks and Sigs. Loading it a touch longer than 1.125 gives me a little more buffer room on pressure. Loading short will make pressure spike in a hurry. When I run it through a 1911, I load it long to 1.170 - 1.200 as long as the barrel has been throated to accept long loaded bullets.
I like to use a barrel as a gauge. They tell me everything I need to know about the ammo. Gauges are fine if they are cut with the same reamer that cut your chamber right after it cut your chamber. And then a good gauge should be cut from a chunk of barrel to make sure the bullet is clearing the rifling. Most all gauges out there dont tell you that.
I also roll size all my pistol brass before I reload it. If you are concerned about bulged brass I would be happy to roll size your brass for you.
I have several hundred maybe close to 1,000 once fired brass, mostly Federal and Remington that I have saved. Shot from a G23. I have RCBS carbide dies that I use for my 10mm loads and I use a Lee FCD for the taper crimp I put on as a last and separate step. I have a single stage reloader.
So my question is the Lee FCD can be used as a pass thru sizing die and would this be necessary? What type of measurement would indicate the full length sizing is necessary? I think I may try to find a recipe for AA#5 for the 180 gr MG I have been using as practice rounds for the 10mm. My only pistol reloading experience is with virgin starline brass for the 10mm.
What type of measurement would indicate the full length sizing is necessary?
Always FL resize all semi auto pistol ammo. Always.
thanks, now if I could just find some powder.
Anyone use Longshot for 40 sw?
thanks, now if I could just find some powder.
Anyone use Longshot for 40 sw?
Longshot is good for top end, high velocity loads.
Loaded up some some with 6.6 gr of Longshot with 180gr Montana Gold bullets. Even though the chrono showed about 60 fps slower than what I expected they shot pretty nice. I plan on upping the load a bit to get closer to 985 fps (Factory SD chrono results). Thanks for the tips. Wish my .223 experiments went as well but that is another topic.
I've picked up some AA#7, because I can't find AA#5, and will report on how I like it when I get around to reloading again.
Good to see this thread is going to good use in the mean time.
Loading tonight and found that, not always, but more often than not, nickle plated brass will load a longer OAL by .005-.010. Anyone else experience anything like that?
What press and dies are you using? Just curious as I may need to load .40 soon.
RCBS Rockchucker turret press and Lee carbide dies. I have Lee 9mm dies in the press, but haven't used them yet.
Made it through my first full pound of AA#5. Need to set up the 9mm dies next. Here is the reloading station.
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-iYmIvN-AJIA/VMSX5b3CJ5I/AAAAAAAAPDM/yB7TZwxecas/w1552-h873-no/20150125_001435.jpg
Slapps74
01-25-2015, 14:12
I've picked up some AA#7, because I can't find AA#5, and will report on how I like it when I get around to reloading again.
Good to see this thread is going to good use in the mean time.
I like the AA7. If you can find it the silhouette is good as well. I just got into the reloading thing a few weeks ago and I have been able to score 5 pounds of powder that I was looking for.
55465
What caliber are you loading with AA#7?
On a side note, I figured (incorrectly) that after cutting my teeth on .40 that 9mm would be a walk in the park and I'd be set up in minutes. That apparently is not the case. Seems that flat point and regular ball rounds taper differently. Might even start a 9mm dedicated thread while I work through that issue.
Edit: Okay after searching around a bit, I found I'm on the right track. Max OAL for 9mm is showing up at 1.169. However, I couldn't get the FP to even come close to passing the plunk test until around 1.080, which seemed super short. Looking online tells me that other people are loading that short and not blowing up. Seems the round nose profile is longer than the flat point, so I don't need to be as concerned about loading shorter since the projectile is shorter.
Slapps74
01-25-2015, 16:34
40 S&W ,10mm, and tried a few 45 I don't have a 9mm so no 9mm experience or dies. Loading Berry's 180gn on 40 & 10 and 230gn RN on 45 and 100 gn RNHB on .380.
Slapps74
01-25-2015, 16:41
Western powders has their load data on line. I have just been following the powder manufacturers recommendations and then comparing with 2 other books.
Max OAL for 9mm is showing up at 1.169. However, I couldn't get the FP to even come close to passing the plunk test until around 1.080, which seemed super short. Looking online tells me that other people are loading that short and not blowing up. Seems the round nose profile is longer than the flat point, so I don't need to be as concerned about loading shorter since the projectile is shorter.
Lead or coated lead flat points are a different animal in 9x19. Not a fan of them. FMJ is so much easier to load with fewer issues.
MuddyWings and I loaded some coated bullets up and started off a half grain under start due to the reduced OAL. The good thing is using 1/2 gn less per round you are saving some $$$ on powder.
For flat points or JHPs, I will stick with jacketed.
They are plated. We'll see how it goes.
sportbikeco
04-23-2015, 20:32
Thanks to Irving I got some 135gr Plated barrys bullets to try out.
These things are really short so I had to load them alot shorter then the 180's ive been shooting, 1.124. These gave it enough case to grip the bullet but not by much, I had to taper crimp these way harder then any other bullet ive worked with (using the scientific press the loaded round into the work bench method to check for setback)
I was after light recoil so i went with faster powder, tried 5gr of bullseye.
Recoil was very low even compared to my 180gr 4.0gr W231 plinker load ive been using. Seemed accurate (shooting at steel from a decent distance), much more noise then my 180gr w/W231 load. 0 malfunctions and plenty of power to lock the slide back. Empty cases landed about 2 feet to the right of where I was standing.
Now i'd like to see how they do going fast, going to try some ramshot silhouette or Win. auto comp next.
Glad you were able to work something out with those!
Came across this upgraded primer catcher for the RCBS turret press. I think the most cool thing about this product is that he 3D printed it. Seems like there is a market for 3D printed upgrades just waiting to explode. Check out the video.
9dX7h6gcWpU
Oh for the record, I've never had a problem with my primer catcher. It catches 99 out of 100 primers.
Great-Kazoo
07-05-2015, 20:12
Came across this upgraded primer catcher for the RCBS turret press. I think the most cool thing about this product is that he 3D printed it. Seems like there is a market for 3D printed upgrades just waiting to explode. Check out the video.
9dX7h6gcWpU
Oh for the record, I've never had a problem with my primer catcher. It catches 99 out of 100 primers.
I have a few 40 1x fired brass here if you're interested.
I guess I have room for some more brass. Any caliber you need?
The Lee Micrometer insert is the biggest POS they make, and was outright dangerous when I used it (might be OK for 45 or larger volume powder drops, but definitely not for 3-4g of Universal or Solo). I ended up drilling and forcibly tapping a setscrew into the side of a well that was slightly oversized, to allow adjustability.
The Lee measure is otherwise pretty good, albeit messy. If you get one, plan to spend some time with a pencil, dry lubing the mechanism.
The aluminun can baffles are actually very workable, and there's templates available to make the end product pretty nice: http://www.allmantrading.com/reloading/baffle.pdf
The only thing with the cans is that soda cans are coated with a thin plastic layer, which tends to build a static charge. A dryer sheet readily disperses the static, though.
I just ordered a Lee Pro Auto Disk and a Hornady Electronic scale and they will be arriving soon. In my research I've found many accounts describing inaccurate throws for anything under 4 gr. Would you mind elaborating on what you experienced with the micrometer charge bar?
Also, I'm reading a lot of stuff about graphite lube, but I know extremely little about that kind of thing. Any chance you could talk about what/where/how to lube a powder measure correctly? I'd like to go through my old Herters No 5 measure as well.
Not_A_Llama
07-08-2015, 10:03
With small charges under about 4 grains, the micrometer charge bar frequently throws extremely light charges (a couple granules of powder). As I recall, it was a combination of small inlet aperture that caused powder bridging, and... maybe another factor. I have some recollection of a rubber piece causing trouble, too - that part is speculatory and lost to time.
My solution there was to take a much larger disk well that I'd never use, and drill/tap for a setscrew that restricted well volume without restricting the inlet aperture.
Graphite lube is just powdered graphite. You can get it in small quantities for key lubrication at Home Depot and the like, or if you have a known squeaking site, you can take a pencil and scribble it on the area. The cool thing about graphite is that it is molecularly structured as large sheets of carbon that slide over each other. As such, it's electrically conductive, which disperses static, and ends up lubricating without being "sticky".
I would radius the corners on the autodisk, so that powder doesn't get hung up, then I would take a pencil to the squeaky/static-y parts of your measure (the sliding tracks on the autodisk), and just run a couple dozen charges through. Most powders today are coated in graphite for static dispersion, and it'll make its way into the works. Individually verify that maybe a dozen drops look good in the end.
DenverGP
07-08-2015, 15:40
When I first started using the micrometer charge bar for small loads, I realized that the small rectangular opening in the bottom of the plastic hopper was mostly blocked by the charge bar at smaller load settings. I have the cheaper rectangular hopper, and I simply filed the opening to match up to the front curve of the charge bar. It has since been very consistent for loads of 4.0 grains but I've never tried smaller.
One issue I did have with the lee powder measure that caused under-charged or no-charge issues was the powder measure binding up after dropping the powder. The charge bar was not resetting completely to it's original location, and with a small charge, the opening in the bar wasn't far enough back for more powder to drop into the bar. I disassembled the powder measure, cleaned and lubed up the moving parts, and also filed a little metal on the bottom that the spring was catching on. It's been about 2000 rounds loaded since then and the issue never repeated.
I use the Lee auto disks for all of my pistol calibers. A separate one on each Dillon 550 tool head. While I have the micrometer insert for the auto disk, I found that once I chose my desired powder charge weight for the caliber, it was just simplest to find the fixed hole that drops the closest charge for the given bullet weight. Example, in .40 S&W, I load 155 gr JHP bullets on top of 7.2 gr of Power Pistol. The .61 hole drops that amount of Power Pistol very reliably. Other than the lever pulling the disk and the spring returning the disk, the only other moving part is the funnel inside the powder die that activates the disk and flares the case mouth.
I use this same set up for .38 Spl and .45 ACP. If I change bullet weights or powders, I just need to find the disk hole that gets me the closest to my desired charge weight. I don't load max charges and I've found that with consistent charges, I get very good performance from my range ammunition.
The first thing I noticed with the Pro Auto Disk is that the spring rides along one of the ribs when used. I deployed the dremel and now the spring doesn't clank each time. I'm ever so slightly concerned that I have metal shavings everywhere, but it seems to be operating smoothly. I vacuumed AND blew it out with the air compressor. What looks like metal dust in the photos is just the Maaco quality paint job.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/xOcu0pwP6MlIJ8dMpqeU1yXwjK5RcTSe_n5XvSZSVcQv=w1698-h955-no
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/4sg3jagoZQTAozKH8RhEfGItVk9R3sQla10HcZgvVmQS=w1698-h955-no
Other side
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/1xZmP_6Obq5Z_hM8mHglsZftGGCRwGSngQVlXGR2v6pX=w1698-h955-no
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/NT8dkTpsoPDb_xWRGWw5FhSpIyyNQD_YXMgTU_ksIIs-=w1698-h955-no
I used the Hornady digital scale for the first time last night and it has been a blessing.
I used the Auto disk tonight in combination with the digital scale and reloading is so much easier and faster that I nearly wept with joy. On one hand I feel like I wasted a bunch of time not upgrading sooner. On the other hand, I tend to learn best by doing something the wrong way for long enough to better understand, and appreciate the right way. I found I load at least twice as fast as before. I can only imagine the joy of the first time running a Dillon 650 or 1050.
Just running a 550 will make you wonder why you waited so long.
I've never inletted my auto disks and the return spring hasn't given me any problems. I have another auto disk on the way for loading .357 SIG. This brings me to four. I hope I don't ever want to load another pistol caliber. [Flower]
I've got a tiny baggie of .357 SIG brass waiting for you.
I've got a tiny baggie of .357 SIG brass waiting for you.
Thank you. I will send you a PM.
sportbikeco
11-11-2015, 00:06
What charge weights of titegroup and bullseye are you guys running with 180's (lead and jacketed)?
How low have you gone with reliable function?
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